As a leader do you feel that Land Navigation should be taken out from the Noncommissioned Officer Professional Development System (NCOPDS)?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 22:59:57 -0400

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 11:02 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 23:02:30 -0400

No, I never use it in my line of work and I think it's good to have as a refresher and also its a valuable skill to memorize

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 11:17 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 23:17:40 -0400

It is a basic soldier skill. The land nav skill required to graduate BLC is very low. A person does not need any prior knowledge of land nav to follow the instructions given by the SGLs. The courses are self correcting. Any soldier in good enough physical condition to hustle around the land nav course, can literally plot their way around by the tags they find on the posts.

In other words the land nav thought at BLC is basic enough every soldier should be able to do it.

Response by SFC James Asbill made Oct 21 at 2016 11:29 PM

SFC James Asbill — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 23:29:29 -0400

Electronic equipment does not always work ... so the old standard low tech solutions should continue to be taught and trained ...

Response by SGM Billy Herrington made Oct 21 at 2016 11:36 PM

SGM Billy Herrington — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 23:36:55 -0400

If I remember correctly it is coming out of BLC along with the STX portion of it.

NCOES (as it's now called NCOPDS) will ebb and flow like it has previously. Expect in a few years that it will come back, then leave again.

I do like our land nav course for 11B and 11C ALC. You get a card to take with you. On the points we have the clackers that punch a pattern in the box on your card. The course is NOT self correcting.

I've never had to send anyone home for failing. It's not as hard as some think it is.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 11:43 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 23:43:27 -0400

Definitely no no no no!! When every system fails you have your good ole compass, watch, rifle and boots to get you where you need to go. Don't lose the fundamentals.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Oct 22 at 2016 12:14 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 00:14:31 -0400

We've seen the good answer for when technology craps out. So you need to pack your plastic and china markers as well. That said, sometimes things change which makes a skill so obsolete, it's not taught anymore. For me it was learning how to write backwards. When you worked the edge lit plexiglas vertical plots, you didn't want to be standing between the officer who needed the info and the plot. So we stood behind it in the dark and wrote with white china markers backwards. At some point they made all the VPs go away in favor of screens on the bulkhead. Tied directly into the sensors, much faster, and no human error in transcription. Some skills like Morse Code and even tap code could save your bacon, but the odds of needing it is very remote. So with a fixed training time and money to do it, they push out what you need 95+% of the time. The LandNav is so you can be a viable asset when tech goes south vs. just being lost in space.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 1:06 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 01:06:09 -0400

No! since our adversaries will blind Us in the next war and GPS may be compromised . We need to keep map reading/land navigation is relevant.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 1:18 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 01:18:55 -0400

I think land navigation is a perishable skill that every Soldier must know. Basic Training-YES...BLC-YES... I don't think, however, that it should be included into every NCOPDS. In BLC, Soldiers are still learning basic skills and knowledge of how to be an NCO. It is one of the first phases of the development system where it's MOS immaterial. Here is where land navigation should remain. As for all other courses, ALC, SLC, MLC, etc., Soldiers are now learning the specifics of their military occupational specialty and they should be learning the systems of what's being used out in the force. CPOF, JCR, for example, are tools that should be included instead of land navigation- and maybe they already are. I'm not quite sure, but systems such as these are what Soldiers should be learning. Land navigation, specifically for my MOS as a 19D, should be a continuous lesson re-enforced at the unit level, at least quarterly, not at the school house. When you go out to the field nowadays most Soldiers are carrying GPSs that they have bought instead of the compass they should have purchased. Times are indeed changing. It's sometimes hard to adjust.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 3:20 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 03:20:02 -0400

Hell no! This is a basic soldiering skill that is immeasuribly important in the operational world. I'm a huge proponent of map and compass land nav. Garmins are a crutch for the lazy. And I won't even start on the uselessness of testing on a "self correcting" course...

Response by MGySgt James Forward made Oct 22 at 2016 7:09 AM

MGySgt James Forward — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 07:09:11 -0400

Easy answer. NO. If you can't read and navigate by map you obviously don't need to be an NCO. Semper Fi. this is a basic military skill.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Oct 22 at 2016 7:43 AM

Capt Tom Brown — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 07:43:41 -0400

Maybe with the advent of every person carrying their personal GPS there is no need for compass and map reading skills. If they give you a set of coordinates and tell you to set up an ambush there, maybe you don't need a map and compass to get there any more. But what do you do when your GPS gets dirty or wet or the batteries give out? Make them full-proof and private proof and I would gladly give up map reading. I was never any good at it..

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 7:59 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 07:59:49 -0400

Just remember. The people who make these points are too lazy to hide and walk the points far out from the road.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Oct 22 at 2016 8:06 AM

Sgt Wayne Wood — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 08:06:36 -0400

Seriously? Are you DRUNK?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 8:10 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 08:10:09 -0400

First, we are saying the next war when we are still in the current wars, Iraq and Afghanistan are not over and Soldiers/Marines are in a gun fight right now! The tools of our craft are always being refined, land navigation is one of the most basic, fundamental, foundational, (what ever you want to call it) skills a Soldier can master. (When I say Soldier I mean all branches)
I recently sent two cyber candidates to the US Army Ranger School, and boom you guessed it, land navigation kicked their butt and they must try again. We can become as fancy and as tech as we want, but don't forget we still are fighting people who do not need a GPS and could care less about mass data collection on the battle field.

Response by SSG Stephan Pendarvis made Oct 22 at 2016 8:46 AM

SSG Stephan Pendarvis — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 08:46:29 -0400

nope...right and up should always be a part of any military leadership school

Response by SFC David Davenport made Oct 22 at 2016 9:12 AM

SFC David Davenport — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 09:12:10 -0400

Heck no. It does need to be taught to Soldiers early in their career. When a Soldier goes to NCOES they should already know land navigation and be shifting their focus to "How do I teach this to my Soldiers?"

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 9:11 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 09:11:41 -0400

It's only in WLC, so I say keep it. If they make plans to put it in ALC/SLC, that would be a terrible idea. Too many NCOs don't know how to write NCOERS and awards, so I think that needs to be a focus during professional schools like those. I'll wait for responses.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Oct 22 at 2016 9:33 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 09:33:28 -0400

No, hell no. Directing accurate fire and maneuvering effectively are at the heart of combat and support operations. They're to important to trust to systems that can and will fail at the worst times

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 10:56 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 10:56:22 -0400

F#CK NO!!!!!

Response by SFC George Smith made Oct 22 at 2016 11:28 AM

SFC George Smith — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:28:00 -0400

oh Hell no...
Old School Land Nav should be taught and especially with a Map and Compass...
One of these Days some one is going to get stupid and Nuke the Satellites and there is going to be No More GPS... so they will need to know how to Use a Map and Compass... or just wonder around aimlessly ... LBS... Lost Bigger than "Stuff"

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Oct 22 at 2016 11:57 AM

SGT Philip Roncari — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:57:24 -0400

I feel this was one the most important skills we had to master at the NCO academy Fort Hood Texas back in 1967,and I used it as a training tool for my instructor duties during my time at Fort Polk La,running patrols in the swamps of Louisiana,GPS wasn't around then.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 12:54 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 12:54:34 -0400

modern tech is great but when that fails, what then, keep teaching the basic skills, land nav by compass and map, survival skills SERE, basic first aid

Response by SFC Daniel McIntire made Oct 22 at 2016 10:29 PM

SFC Daniel McIntire — Sat, 22 Oct 2016 22:29:45 -0400

NO! Land Nav is a perishable skill. Yea, GPSs are on hand that anyone can use. But what would happen if the GPS fails, and one is not trained in the basics?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 1:42 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Oct 2016 13:42:09 -0400

Hell no. Land nav not only helps with dismounted missions but can give someone that's never read a map some knowledge during a mounted mission.

Response by SSG Eddie Helmling made Oct 23 at 2016 5:57 PM

SSG Eddie Helmling — Sun, 23 Oct 2016 17:57:04 -0400

NO NO NO equipment gets damaged, batteries go dead, you can't read map and compass you and your people die that simple

Response by SFC Glen S. made Oct 24 at 2016 6:16 AM

SFC Glen S. — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 06:16:20 -0400

No, it should remain to be taught. I do get that we have technology now but, when your equipment is dead in the water your only alternative to navigate is to use this fundamental skill.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Oct 24 at 2016 2:14 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 14:14:09 -0400

I think it should stay. As others mentioned, if your electronic device fails you must be ready to go to paper to get your troops out. Another reason is, land nav is also a practice in attention to detail and remaining claim under pressure. It is hard to "teach" these things without being in them so I feel land nav serves that purpose very well.

Response by SGT Patrick Reno made Oct 24 at 2016 3:44 PM

SGT Patrick Reno — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 15:44:13 -0400

No way, never totally depend on electronics working all the time.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 5:00 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 17:00:48 -0400

There are certain skills every leader should possess. Land navigation is one of them, whether you're a cook or infantryman. When the chips are down you may be the leader troops look at to take charge, simply due to the rank on your chest. I know I'd never want to look back at them and say I don't know how to lead you in this situation.

Response by MSG Paul DePrimo made Oct 24 at 2016 6:54 PM

MSG Paul DePrimo — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 18:54:17 -0400

Just the NCOPDS? I was thought basic land Nav skills in well, basic training. After that of course we trained on land Nav/map reading tasks annually but my confidence did not come through until PLDC (old school). I had a great instructor and I could have been dropped anywhere and would have been able to navigate, with map, compass. Did I use it in IRAQ, No but what if I had too? what if equipment went down? years have gone by with no training and my confidence is gone. I would need retraining because we didn't use it! Who knows if and when you may deploy, could be ANYWHERE!
Continue to teach this skill!!!! don't be foolish!

Response by SSG Matthew Koehler made Oct 24 at 2016 6:55 PM

SSG Matthew Koehler — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 18:55:28 -0400

A little more Land Navigation and a little less buffer time!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 7:24 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 19:24:01 -0400

No! Land Nav needs to stay. But what needs to happen is BLC be revamped. I have a fellow SGT in BLC right now and it's a horrific program (Yes I know that it's a SGT in BLC but there are mitigating factors). If a SPC calls this NCO by their 1st name or just by last name and no rank and this NCO calls them out on it, it's the NCO that gets a negative event oriented counseling. The program is worse than boot camp and is no longer a developmental course. BLC should be a program where they teach and develop people to be NCO'S not a program that's in place to teach what should have been taught in Basic Training.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 7:48 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 19:48:11 -0400

When I went through Camp Shelby WLC, during land nav day, we had NCO instructor, who got completely lost in the middle of the woods. I found it pretty perplexing since the day before instructors took us out to those woods and showed us every single nook and cranny, so we would not get lost.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 9:44 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 21:44:48 -0400

Even though our technology continues to advance, so does the adversary's and their ability to defend/manipulate ours. Should always be taught. Even in the intel field we have to learn how to format electronic reports by hand. Good topic.

Response by TSgt Scott Hurley made Oct 24 at 2016 10:31 PM

TSgt Scott Hurley — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 22:31:31 -0400

If it is done away with, make sure your units have individuals that are either Eagle Scouts or were Boy Scouts since they were taught Orienteering. That will be the only saving grace.

Being able to do things using a compass, map, and using the stars to navigate buy is necessary for any unit. That is one reason for being able to read maps. Those leaders that say GPS will solve all this has rocks in their heads. What happens when GPS fails you. You need to know how to land navigate using a compass and a map, your watch, the stars. Even the sun can guide you to your destination.

So if any of you are an Eagle Scout or were a Boy Scout, make sure a compass is part of equipment as well. Do not let your leaders tell you its not needed.

Response by SGT Kenneth Starks made Oct 25 at 2016 5:37 AM

SGT Kenneth Starks — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 05:37:53 -0400

no it is very impotant

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 6:55 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:55:49 -0400

heck no leave land nav in all levels of development, what the army should do is completely get rid of the SSD'S, i get learning about our history i do , but will knowing what color shoulder bars that soldiers used to wear during the civil war make me a better nco today? not by a long shot will knowing how to lead my troops from one point to another with out digital aids make me a better leader. hands down it will.

Response by SFC Robert Dimitroff made Oct 25 at 2016 7:01 AM

SFC Robert Dimitroff — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:01:47 -0400

They can't follow if you can't lead.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Oct 25 at 2016 7:06 AM

1SG Harold Piet — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:06:29 -0400

Land Nav will help you in so many ways throughout your life. you will be a better person just because you can look at the sun and the clock and know about where you are and the direction you need to go even if you do not have a compass. there are people growing up that do not know left from right or east and west. I do not want them leading my kids into battle without learning.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Oct 25 at 2016 7:18 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:18:02 -0400

In my opinion there is always a time during training and combat in which we get misoriented, either on foot or in a vehicle. The techniques taught and the skills learned will serve you well throughout your career. Technology is wonderful and has advanced the military and society in ways on y dreamed of a short time ago, but technology ultimately fails, jamming, system breakdowns etc. Keep the skill it is vital.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Oct 25 at 2016 7:19 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:19:57 -0400

Leave it there. If you can't read a map, follow a map, or use a compass, stay in the rear with the gear.

Response by 1SG John Highfill made Oct 25 at 2016 7:42 AM

1SG John Highfill — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:42:19 -0400

shoot move (Navigate)Commicate
Every Soldier needs those skills

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 7:42 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:42:24 -0400

After seeing nearly every POG at WLC get a no go and have to get spoon how to do this basic soldiering task definitely no. If anything they need to start having mandatory land nav tests annually

Response by SFC Tim Winkler made Oct 25 at 2016 7:49 AM

SFC Tim Winkler — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:49:19 -0400

Do not remove! The ability to use a compass and a map are skills that all NCO's need!!

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Oct 25 at 2016 7:50 AM

1SG Mike Case — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:50:43 -0400

Land Navigation also teaches more than just LAN NAV. It teaches attention to detail and the importance of doing things right the first time. It makes Soldiers focus on plotting, measuring distance, and azimuths, which are all things that make them focus on attention to detail . It isn't something you can just rush and still get it right. Try to rush through, hurry up and get done and you will be walking in the woods, all day, just lost. Land Navigation is a great skill by itself but teaches more than just navigating from one point to another.

Response by SSG Paul Goss made Oct 25 at 2016 7:54 AM

SSG Paul Goss — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:54:15 -0400

Are you kidding me??? Shoot! Move! Communicate!

Response by SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder made Oct 25 at 2016 7:56 AM

SGT Matthew Schenkenfelder — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:56:19 -0400

As an NCO, I'd have to say no! I believe that it should be given at every NCOPD course. It should start out in what is now BLC as a basic course and progress more from that with the course in ALC a little more advanced and the course in SLC being more advanced than the one in ALC. If you lack the confidence and fortitude to find points on a map with just a compass and protractor than you don't need to be an NCO.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 8:09 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:09:35 -0400

Absolutely not!

Response by 1stSgt Troy Seals made Oct 25 at 2016 8:14 AM

1stSgt Troy Seals — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:14:38 -0400

Hell no, soldier task.

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Oct 25 at 2016 8:17 AM

SFC John Fourquet — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:17:40 -0400

Hell no. Any leader who cannot navigate will get his unit lost and not accomplish the assigned mission.

Response by SGT Arno Paul Schumann made Oct 25 at 2016 8:26 AM

SGT Arno Paul Schumann — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:26:09 -0400

Hell No! Land nav. is an essential skill in moving troops when GPS or other satellite assistance is down. A soldier always has to have the ability to rely on himself when other measures fail. What kind of soldier would even make such an absurd suggestion.

Response by 1SG Raymond M Baker Jr made Oct 25 at 2016 8:35 AM

1SG Raymond M Baker Jr — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:35:21 -0400

As a Chief Instructor, for the First United States Army NCO Academy during the 1980's, I would strongly suggest keeping Land Navigation as part of the curriculum. We taught the course at Fort Indiantown Gap, PA and saw many of the advantages of having the course. If you don't know where you are going or how to get there, you are in sad shape. You cannot rely on satellites, in the event of electronic pulses wiping out communication. My vote is to keep the Land Navigation Courses!

Response by SMSgt Steve Neal made Oct 25 at 2016 8:37 AM

SMSgt Steve Neal — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:37:56 -0400

NOPE! To this very day, because of my levels 1-4 infantry skills (1980s), especially land-nav (orienteering) training and experience I am a world-wide capable map and terrain reader and road navigator who always hits the ground knowing which way to go. Invaluable life-skill, that if not perfected as a junior NCO will be blown off and never used. Sure, your phone knows where you are, but when that battery dies or cell coverage is lost, aren't you? With Land Nav skills, you can still lead the way and get where you need to be...

Response by SGT Carl Doerr made Oct 25 at 2016 9:07 AM

SGT Carl Doerr — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:07:59 -0400

Hell No. Technology is great but it will always come up short at one time or another

Response by 1SG Rudolph Watt made Oct 25 at 2016 9:38 AM

1SG Rudolph Watt — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:38:13 -0400

It is a skill that should be taught in all leadership courses up to senior leadership courses, in the year and a half in a war zone and seeing electronics fail, the good old compass, map and stubby pencil always worked

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Oct 25 at 2016 9:46 AM

1SG Brian Adams — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:46:55 -0400

Negative....Land Nav is an essential hallmark of a Soldier. Infantry Soldiers for example may be more oft in combat positioning where this basic essential skill will save lives.

Response by SGT Gid Alston made Oct 25 at 2016 9:48 AM

SGT Gid Alston — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:48:43 -0400

Absolutely not! Land Navigation is one of the most important skills a combat leader can have. How the hell can you accomplish anything if you don't know where you are or where you're going?

Response by SSG Tom Pike made Oct 25 at 2016 9:52 AM

SSG Tom Pike — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:52:17 -0400

I think everyone else has pretty well covered it. But Hell No land nav should not be removed from NCO courses. If anything it should be taught even more.

Response by LTJG Don Biscoe made Oct 25 at 2016 10:00 AM

LTJG Don Biscoe — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:00:37 -0400

Land Nav is an essential tool. Yes we have many electronic tools but if there were a catastrophic event it may include the termination of strategic satellites; then where are you? Land Nav - requires dead reckoning, math, map reading, and planning skills. Something any Jr Officer or non-comm should posses.

Response by SSG Nat Dillenback made Oct 25 at 2016 10:02 AM

SSG Nat Dillenback — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:02:37 -0400

No!! Trust a battery, die like a battery. There are plenty of places that GPS just won't work. Like ravines, wadi's, Vermont, etc... You lose this skill, you're lost for sure.

Response by SSG Kyle Stromgren made Oct 25 at 2016 10:04 AM

SSG Kyle Stromgren — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:04:54 -0400

what happens when the gps fails or the enemy takes out a few satilites hmmmm wandering around with out a clue and besides what would the tactal map makers do?

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Oct 25 at 2016 10:07 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:07:45 -0400

Look be smart! At some point all technology fails, falters or hiccups! GPS works only if you have a.) satellites that work, b.) receivers that work. There are places in this world with little or no satellite coverage, and receivers require power. It's a known fact that EMP kills satellites, and lots of technology unless hardened. Is your GPS EMP hardened- hell no.! Radiation, no power, no batteries does not effective a Map sheet and a compass!! You can't carry out the mission if you can't get there. I know some Lt's still get lost with GPS.

Response by SGT Chris Cordell made Oct 25 at 2016 10:12 AM

SGT Chris Cordell — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:12:52 -0400

Absolutely not. Why would that even be considered? Do troops today live by the GPS? I'm afraid we, as a society, have become far too dependent on electricity. In war the first target is the power grid, then command and control.

Response by SGT Josh Johnson made Oct 25 at 2016 10:33 AM

SGT Josh Johnson — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:33:14 -0400

Every soldier should be able to navigate with a map and compass. It is a skill that is easily forgotten, and should be taught more often. The Army's answer is to make it part of every school training course. Your unit NCO s should step it up and make it part if your normal training, as well. It is generally taught in a forested environment, however, you also are taught how to navigate with the moon and the sun. These are important if you were to be lost in the desert. Believe me, as vast ad the deserts are, you can easily get lost. GPS s fail. Batteries die. But, with your map, compass, and sense of hearing. You can once again find your battle buddies.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Oct 25 at 2016 10:33 AM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:33:53 -0400

This is way too important of a skill to remove. Land Nav needs to be reinforced at every level. There are to many leaders out there who do not know how to use a compass. Even more who do not know how to use a GPS.
When soldiers are lost they depend on their leadership to show them the way... Literally and figuratively. Yes this is a training that takes lots of time, but this is also a key survival skill and a key leadership skill. Your troops need to know that you are competent in your job, and nothing loses that confidence more than getting lost.
You as a leader do not have to be the best at the task, but you do need to be confident enough to train your troops and to double check their work.
Having this as part of your training validates your skill at each level.

Response by SSG Bob Bravo made Oct 25 at 2016 10:43 AM

SSG Bob Bravo — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:43:49 -0400

Absolutely not more should be added! In my day it was all about maps, compasses and projectors. Seems like troops have become very GPS dependent.

Response by Sgt William Margeson made Oct 25 at 2016 10:59 AM

Sgt William Margeson — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 10:59:58 -0400

Definately no. GPS will not always be there. If you can not land navigate, using map and compass you are essentially combat ineffective, and of no use to a commander. The lives of your team is also a consideration. Cann't go from pint Ato B, B to C, you are lost and probably dead, unless you get lucky and spotted by air crew.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Oct 25 at 2016 11:02 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:02:35 -0400

Take it out, put it back, take it out, put it back, on and on and on.

When I went to WLC they had taken it out, and have since put LandNav back in. Leave it in. I was Infantry at the time and occasionally would do LandNav training, so maybe I didn't miss much not doing it in WLC; however, more practice is good practice. Besides, what happens one day if GPS goes down and you don't know how to get from Point A to Point B with your DAGR? Sound improbably? Suppose GPS satellites are targeted in a future conflict with an adversary with the means to do it? Not so improbable to think GPS could be degraded or fully compromised.

It's not physically or mentally difficult to do nor is it a very time consuming task to learn. For many whose MOS don't generally require any use of LandNav, its good exposure.

Response by CSM Michael L. Mullenix made Oct 25 at 2016 11:08 AM

CSM Michael L. Mullenix — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:08:21 -0400

If you rely heavily on electronics and they fail, what then? You need the skills that land navigation teach you. Why leave a valuable tool behind?

Response by SSG Ken Gilder made Oct 25 at 2016 11:11 AM

SSG Ken Gilder — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:11:16 -0400

No. Every NCO and potential NCO should have a basic knowledge of land navigation, and how to use a map and compass.

Response by SMSgt Dick Roesner made Oct 25 at 2016 11:21 AM

SMSgt Dick Roesner — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:21:04 -0400

No. when the GPS Satellites are taken out or your handheld is lost or broken you will have to rely on your compas and training to get your and your men to the destination. If you don't make the designated site on time many lives could be lost!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 11:32 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:32:01 -0400

It should not! These new "millenial " soldiers need to know how to read a map, and navigate through different types of terrain, without the use of electronics. They are entirely too dependent upon technology to get through even the most basic of tasks already.

Response by SGT Jody Beach made Oct 25 at 2016 11:32 AM

SGT Jody Beach — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:32:09 -0400

Should be a course every service member has to take in all classes. Commissioned and Non commissioned. Takes one EMP and all your nice little electronic toys are gone.
Do you guys still have to call in for fire?

Response by SFC Cesar Valdez Jr made Oct 25 at 2016 11:51 AM

SFC Cesar Valdez Jr — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:51:59 -0400

I can not comprehend why would anyone ask such a question. Land navigation knowledge is extremely important for everyone!! It is part of basic skills for evasion and survival, one can not expect GPS or other technology to come to the rescue.

Response by SSG Edgar Pimentel made Oct 25 at 2016 11:53 AM

SSG Edgar Pimentel — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:53:54 -0400

As a formal NCO I had to do land Navigation in PLDC and in BNCOC phase one and two. I feel that it is necessary for every soldier to do land navigation especially the leaders. Omce we start depending on electronics for everything we lose the basic principles of how to use a compass or even a protractor. We need to keep the basics in so when technology breaks down we know how to do it with out it.

Response by Sgt Paul Mason made Oct 25 at 2016 11:58 AM

Sgt Paul Mason — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 11:58:41 -0400

You ALWAYS have to know how to do something "the old fashioned way"...you never know when you won't have the resources to do things the modern way and you have to be prepared to succeed in your mission any way that you can. The more tools that you have, the easier and more often you'll succeed.

Response by SSG Steve Finlan made Oct 25 at 2016 12:11 PM

SSG Steve Finlan — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:11:46 -0400

No. Also, ALL soldiers at ALL levels should be required to demonstrate pencil, paper, and compass land navigation ability. The notion that any given soldier or unit will always have 100% access to 100% functioning GPS is irrational and will lead to potentially dangerous doctrine. Basic "unplugged" skills should be REINFORCED, not eliminated.

Response by SMSgt Sheila Berg made Oct 25 at 2016 12:16 PM

SMSgt Sheila Berg — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:16:05 -0400

No It's part of leading a Patrol. Navigation by GPS or Google Maps would not be a good option.

Response by SSG Jacey R. made Oct 25 at 2016 12:24 PM

SSG Jacey R. — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:24:50 -0400

Absolutely not!! The electronic systems today can fail, due to a number of reasons. A soldier especially NCO should be able to navigate by compass and map, even if only to be able to verify and confirm what a GPS or other system is indicating.

Response by SSgt Lester Bell made Oct 25 at 2016 12:32 PM

SSgt Lester Bell — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:32:09 -0400

No - Map and compass work when the batteries are dead.

Response by SGT Alan Cotta made Oct 25 at 2016 12:32 PM

SGT Alan Cotta — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:32:27 -0400

No it is a vital learning tool.

Response by SFC James Beason made Oct 25 at 2016 12:37 PM

SFC James Beason — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:37:53 -0400

When I returned to active duty, the first field problem I went on , I had to correct a SSG with 10 years service, he simply could not plot and maintain a course using a map and compass. This was pre GPS.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 1:23 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 13:23:00 -0400

Is that a serious question? Who would decide that land nav was no longer important, maybe some marginally useful leader akin to Secretary Mabus?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 1:30 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 13:30:38 -0400

No that is a skill that needs to be maintained. All else fails pull out the compass and map.

Response by MSG Chuck Pewsey made Oct 25 at 2016 1:43 PM

MSG Chuck Pewsey — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 13:43:57 -0400

It's a perishable skill. In college, i learned map reading (as it was called in those days) in ROTC (mandatory for two years at land grant colleges), in Geology, in basic and AIT and again in the advanced course. I still get confused. I read during WWI, the Air Force sorted those who grasp the international date line immediately to be navigators. Those who couldn't did something else. I belong to the latter group.

Response by SSG Curtis Dietrich made Oct 25 at 2016 2:16 PM

SSG Curtis Dietrich — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:16:23 -0400

No way. We cannot just hand over the map and compass to the LT. Why would you want to remove something that takes skill away from NCOES? In my class (Ft. Lewis), we lost 3 soldiers from Land Nav. Unless you are trying to get a larger pass percentage so your NCOER looks better? Keep it for goodness sake, quit trying to throw out fundamentals of being a soldier.

Response by PO2 David Ball made Oct 25 at 2016 3:11 PM

PO2 David Ball — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:11:53 -0400

No, anyone these days can jam a GPS heck you buy the kits from make or Radio Shack. So no you should not even think about it or your going to be dead some where without knowing where you are !

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 3:13 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:13:11 -0400

This might not be a popular response but land navigation is not something that should be required at NCOPDS. This is a skill level 1 task that needs to be trained and practiced at the unit. NCOPDS at the lowest level is to teach skill level 2 tasks at BLC, not skill level one tasks. If it is incorporated into another leader task then I am on board with it but just moving alone and finding points is a unit requirement to train.

Response by CPO David Sharp made Oct 25 at 2016 3:44 PM

CPO David Sharp — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:44:55 -0400

This is ridiculous to even ask!!! How are you going on patrol, recon or know where you are at for close air support, evac, etc.? WTF?

Response by SFC Dennis D Joy made Oct 25 at 2016 4:20 PM

SFC Dennis D Joy — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 16:20:30 -0400

While attending BNCOC and ANCOC, infantry, I observed a number of NCOS that failed out because of their land nav skills. I feel by the time an individual gets through the basic level of NCO schools, PNCOC or whatever you have for your career path, you should be able to navigate, however that may be, GPS or grid map.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Oct 25 at 2016 6:12 PM

1LT William Clardy — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 18:12:08 -0400

What in God's name for, SFC Private RallyPoint Member?

Response by LT Michael Watson made Oct 25 at 2016 6:34 PM

LT Michael Watson — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 18:34:41 -0400

Absolutely not. The navigation systems in use today , while being very reliable, are vulnerable to multiple issues that would totally incapacitate those that rely on electronic systems. If you need more proof, see that the U.S. Naval Academy has re instituted celestial navigation as a required course. Nothing beats a paper map, a good. Impasse , and some sense of geography to get an individual to their objective.

Response by SGM Harvey Boone made Oct 25 at 2016 6:41 PM

SGM Harvey Boone — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 18:41:56 -0400

No you never can get enough you can always pick up something.

Response by SGT Joe Sabedra made Oct 25 at 2016 6:42 PM

SGT Joe Sabedra — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 18:42:13 -0400

No it is a staple element.
As an E-4 I was the gunner on an M1Abrams and my map reading skills exceeded my TC.
I had to monitor our location, routes and call in all fire missions for the platoon.
It was great but none of my platoon superiors could do it.

It has always been a staple of all training.

Remember you have to be able to Shoot, Move and Communicate equally.

Response by GySgt Dc Keesling made Oct 25 at 2016 6:44 PM

GySgt Dc Keesling — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 18:44:49 -0400

We're already making kids dependant on calculators for simple math. We don't want to do the same with map reading. It was bad enough when I retired 24 years ago

Response by SSG James Dennis made Oct 25 at 2016 6:55 PM

SSG James Dennis — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 18:55:09 -0400

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Land Nav is a basic soldier skill that the soldier should always be proficient at. Technology can fail, fundamentals will get the soldier to the objective.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 6:59 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 18:59:34 -0400

This is a joke, right?

Response by SSG Wayne Wood made Oct 25 at 2016 7:02 PM

SSG Wayne Wood — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 19:02:19 -0400

NO! As has been said before - it's basic soldiering; it never hurts to reinforce the skill and maybe even take it further. In peacetime a leader who can't read a map is funny. In combat, it can be deadly. And we can't always depend on having GPS and GPS isn't always accurate. Just ask anyone who's tried to find my house using it.

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Oct 25 at 2016 7:37 PM

SGT Tim Fridley — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 19:37:31 -0400

Two words NO WAY it is an important part of NCO development

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 7:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 19:41:26 -0400

No! Who is going to save the LTs when they get lost?

Response by SP5 James "Art" Gunter made Oct 25 at 2016 7:45 PM

SP5 James "Art" Gunter — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 19:45:12 -0400

Response by PO2 Steven Youngblood made Oct 25 at 2016 8:44 PM

PO2 Steven Youngblood — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 20:44:34 -0400

I'm 56 years old, and am a computer tech. GPS and iphones with google maps are great. but I have had them send me to some strange places, and they don't work when the batteries go down. it is always best to know how to navigate without them.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Monk made Oct 25 at 2016 9:20 PM

SSG Jeffrey Monk — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 21:20:05 -0400

Heck no. When I went through PLDC I spoke to soldiers that hadn't touched a map sense they got out of Basic. If anything, other MOS's should be able to at least walk a compass course once a year. I understand we are not all combat arms but the ability to look at a map, terrain negotiate and find where you are can be very important when separated in combat. Such as in a convoy.

Response by SGT William Peterson made Oct 25 at 2016 9:41 PM

SGT William Peterson — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 21:41:59 -0400

As a soldier that struggled big time with land nav and i mean embarrassingly struggled. No. Its the ABC of be a soldier in the Army.

Response by SSG Jeremy Sharp made Oct 25 at 2016 10:15 PM

SSG Jeremy Sharp — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 22:15:13 -0400

Absolutely not. I know that in the days of satellite and GPS navigation the skill may be somewhat dated but I also believe that if all technology fails the art of map reading and land navigation may be the savior of the NCO and his subordinates. If you can't find the fight you can't get in it!

Response by SSgt Edward Trevino Jr. made Oct 25 at 2016 10:50 PM

SSgt Edward Trevino Jr. — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 22:50:45 -0400

Simple! NO!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 12:02 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 00:02:46 -0400

Land Navigation is the most important part of Leadership Development. What happens when your GPS goes out. Also it sets direction in life.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 12:37 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 00:37:03 -0400

This one should be a no brainer but just in case it isn't. Basic land navigation is an absolute necessity for any soldier. And old school cumpus and protractor Can't be substituted. Gagits fail but good old linstatic cumpas and basic knoledge of earth rotation and sun rise, along with terain analises can't be beat. How can you expect to lead anyone if you don't know what direction to go. Being able tp fall back on basics greatly helps us to navigate around and through a mulitude of mission roadblocks

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 2:12 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 02:12:12 -0400

Absolutely not. There is a time and place for technology. By the same token, there's a time and place for good old fashion elbow grease. Land Nav is more than just reading a map, it's about utilizing your brain and critical thinking skills to solve a problem. It's about overcoming your dependence on technology and proving to yourself that you have survival skills. There is a lot to be said about character building in doing things without technology. Wax on, wax off. Mr. Miagi didn't use a car wash for a reason.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 2:17 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 02:17:24 -0400

Land navigation is the basic foundation upon which you build the essential skills necessary in later ranks employ and deploy appropriate assets. Regardless of your mos land nab gives you the basic to either conduct an assault or establish the best point to place a forward logistics element, et al. Without the fundamentals of land nav the future prospects of development are bleak

Response by SN Greg Wright made Oct 26 at 2016 2:45 AM

SN Greg Wright — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 02:45:25 -0400

Merchant Marines still have to learn Mercador, and Greater Circle navigation. Sextant shooting. This, in the day and age of GPS. Why? Because nothing says that GPS will always be functional. THe stars will be there, though. As will the earth's magnetic field (for compasses). So no. Learn the old ways. Because they might save your ass some day.

Response by 1SG James Lyon made Oct 26 at 2016 6:47 AM

1SG James Lyon — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 06:47:30 -0400

What a terrible question. Every NCO should be able to navigate confidently. NCO development courses are the perfect place to reinforce these skills. Yes, it should be a go/no go situation. There is no such thing as being partially correct when navigating.

Response by SSG Roy Colvert made Oct 26 at 2016 7:12 AM

SSG Roy Colvert — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 07:12:06 -0400

Definitely not ! This is a skill that it very important to have .

Response by SSG Roy Colvert made Oct 26 at 2016 7:15 AM

SSG Roy Colvert — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 07:15:58 -0400

Definitely not ! This is a skill that it very important to have . Because if all this technology go's down from a emp attack we won't be walking around in circles trying to get anywhere. Not to mention reading all types of maps.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 7:57 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 07:57:08 -0400

Sadly this is a discussion that is going to lead to the demise of land navigation. It is a basic fundamental that needs to be kept however with the advent of the iPhone and it's increased use in all areas of the military map reading and land navigation will fade. "GPS" is the new way to get around every where. This generation is cannot be convinced otherwise.

Response by SGT George Duncan made Oct 26 at 2016 10:20 AM

SGT George Duncan — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 10:20:21 -0400

no tool should be removed, every thing that might be needed should be available.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 10:26 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 10:26:56 -0400

No. way. ever. Core skills need to be there when you need them. If you have the mindset of "plan for the worst and hope for the best" you may begin to understand. Worst case scenario of no generators, GPS, communications, vehicles, rations or weapons and you become a foot mobile survivor with a fighting knife (hopefully) and your wits. Any academic leader that entertains removing a core skill in order to add more CYA info does not need to be in the teaching business. Things like this get folks through tough patches and survivability is paramount to mission success. Best Wishes to all.

Response by PO1 Milton Wiseman made Oct 26 at 2016 11:52 AM

PO1 Milton Wiseman — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 11:52:12 -0400

No, a little thing called EMP can ruin a our high tech gear. Land navigation is a vital skill that should always be a part of our kit.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Oct 26 at 2016 12:42 PM

SGT Craig Northacker — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 12:42:09 -0400

Somebody has to figure out how some 2LT got lost and where they are - that used to be me. My CPA years were predicated on being able to look at numbers and figure out if they bore any relationship to the truth - which was a mental calculation. It helped me correct course many times - why would anyone consider ignoring one of our most basic skills, especially if the equipment does not work?

Response by 1SG Billye Jackson made Oct 26 at 2016 6:33 PM

1SG Billye Jackson — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 18:33:41 -0400

Who Ask these DA Questions, Of Course Not, My God its Basic Common Since to be able to use a Map and Compass.

Response by SSG Tim Aschauer made Oct 26 at 2016 8:33 PM

SSG Tim Aschauer — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 20:33:45 -0400

When the engineer units opened the berm in preparation for Desert Storm, they ran blades for at least five kilcks to clear any mine fields. The Mud Puppies went out with "T" posts, and pie plates to mark the lanes. One of the Magellan units died, and in the darkness, the lane moved left until it ran into the next one. I guess someone forgot the grid-magnetic variant.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Oct 26 at 2016 8:35 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 20:35:53 -0400

Only after everyone has successfully completed the course! When electronics go south, you got to fine the target or the way home.

Response by SGT Ronnie DiNatale made Oct 26 at 2016 8:49 PM

SGT Ronnie DiNatale — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 20:49:12 -0400

Not only NO, but HELL NO!!!

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 11:25 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 23:25:17 -0400

Hell no.

Response by SGT Mike Moschkin made Oct 27 at 2016 12:41 AM

SGT Mike Moschkin — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 00:41:43 -0400

No I don't think it should be taken out out.Yes you have GPS now days but if GPS failed the compus won't. Giving you better connection between you and the terrain.

Response by SGT Michael Cardin made Oct 27 at 2016 7:06 AM

SGT Michael Cardin — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 07:06:48 -0400

No I do not, I feel land navigation is the bread and butter of each and every Soldier.

Response by SMSgt Keith Klug made Oct 27 at 2016 7:48 AM

SMSgt Keith Klug — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 07:48:03 -0400

I along with almost everyone here think this skill should be taught. Just like hand to hand combat is still taught. I am a retired AF Security Policeman/Forces member, and I can still use a map and compass, thanks in large part to my ABD training and going through Army ABD Level 2 training at Ft Dix.
Technology fails and proven old school technology needs to be taught. Along those lines, being able to use the sun and a stick for a rough compass should be taught. Maybe even horsemanship, trapping skills, fishing skills.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Oct 27 at 2016 9:07 AM

1SG Patrick Sims — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 09:07:40 -0400

Are you nuts??? What genius came up with the idea land navigation should be dropped from any leadership course---If anything thing---more problems and solutions should be added. While I'm on my rant---Hand to hand self defense should be part of not only leadership courses, but training for all services. People in the military should have the skills to defend themselves bear handed.

Response by SGT Mary G. made Oct 27 at 2016 4:25 PM

SGT Mary G. — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 16:25:08 -0400

No! Even though Land Navigation was part of Basic Training, most of the folks in NCOPDS (PLDC) couldn't find their way out of a paper bag with a map and compass and had difficulty with the land navigation module - although most could usually find n s e w by looking at the sun. GPS, mobiles, and wireless access (radios if still used) may not always be available or functional (though not always advisable to use). Best to at least be familiar with land navigation, better to be able to have some good practice using it effectively!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 6:15 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 18:15:40 -0400

Nope it should stay, its a basic fundamental skill of basic soldiering

Response by MSG Richard Robinson made Oct 28 at 2016 4:16 AM

MSG Richard Robinson — Fri, 28 Oct 2016 04:16:19 -0400

Absolutely NOT! It is the basics of a Soldier's field craft.

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Oct 28 at 2016 8:29 AM

SGT Eric Knutson — Fri, 28 Oct 2016 08:29:54 -0400

So I guess that people have forgotten the story of Willie Lump Lump from what I heard here

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Oct 28 at 2016 5:06 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Fri, 28 Oct 2016 17:06:10 -0400

No. It should be well taught in boot camp and thoroughly reinforced at every level of training thereafter. And it should be taught old school because technology fails.

Response by SFC Charles Temm made Oct 28 at 2016 7:30 PM

SFC Charles Temm — Fri, 28 Oct 2016 19:30:41 -0400

Hard to add to the straight talk on the matter that is already here!

Hands on training on this subject remains a must as stats can be shot down, GPS can be screwed in any number of ways...you should always have backup for everything possible!

Response by SGT Robert Hanson made Oct 29 at 2016 12:27 PM

SGT Robert Hanson — Sat, 29 Oct 2016 12:27:38 -0400

Sorry but this needs to stay. If there ever is a nuclear war and we get hit with an EMP todays GPS tools will be useless. What happens then. You be the judge.

Response by MSG Don Burt made Oct 30 at 2016 2:41 PM

MSG Don Burt — Sun, 30 Oct 2016 14:41:54 -0400

No...without it I couldn't tell you if I was walking around in circles or not! Needs to be there and even expanded for more time using it! How do you use a compass when the battery is dead? Huh?
Compass is a valuable tool and forget about the gps'!

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Oct 30 at 2016 10:35 PM

SSG Mark Franzen — Sun, 30 Oct 2016 22:35:26 -0400

No I think it's a great idea to keep it going it teaches people how to read a map and a compass it will
Help in a Field Exercise.

Response by CSM Eric Biggs made Nov 1 at 2016 11:38 AM

CSM Eric Biggs — Tue, 01 Nov 2016 11:38:10 -0400

Land Navigation is a perishable skill. I do believe it should be left in all levels of professional development and should be a GO/NOGO. If you fail then I guess you were not ready. As leaders we need to ensure we are providing all our subordinates with the training they require. Also if someone is not 100% ready to move to the next level, it is incumbent on us as their leaders to; A. give them the tools to get them ready and B. not allow them to move to the next level until they are ready.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2016 8:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 20:23:27 -0400

When the batteries Die or the LT gets the platoon lost how are you going to get home? Map reading and land nav are criticals skills for every Soldier

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Nov 5 at 2016 11:12 PM

SFC Joseph Weber — Sat, 05 Nov 2016 23:12:05 -0400

No. when the Alien Overlords take out all the GPS satellites in the first minute of invasion we don't want a bunch of dummies who can't find their way without google maps.

Response by SSG Carl Gamel made Dec 28 at 2016 8:53 AM

SSG Carl Gamel — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 08:53:55 -0500

He'll No, you need good NCOs to save the troops from 2nd LTS with maps and compasses.

Response by SGT Jason Hartnett made Dec 28 at 2016 8:56 AM

SGT Jason Hartnett — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 08:56:56 -0500

No because every warrior needs to know basic land navigation. From the very top Officer to the lowest E-1. What would happen(not saying it would) if all eletronics went crazy or stopped working. then what? Basic Land Nav skills come ing to play for all.

Response by SSG Del Ray made Dec 29 at 2016 8:38 AM

SSG Del Ray — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 08:38:45 -0500

Absolutely not. Land nav is an absolute necessity. We can not rely on tech to get us where we need to be.

Response by SSG Chris Watson made Dec 29 at 2016 12:12 PM

SSG Chris Watson — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 12:12:21 -0500

Land Nav was my favorite part of PLDC! (Although being the machine gunner on the FTX was cool too!) Granted, as a 38A we needed to pass land nav at Bragg to graduate AIT.

Response by SGT Derek Blackshire made Dec 30 at 2016 3:11 PM

SGT Derek Blackshire — Fri, 30 Dec 2016 15:11:44 -0500

I would agree with many here that Land navigation needs to continue to be a part of the NCO development courses. This is a parisable skill and often incites teamwork and refresher training for many members who do not get to use this skill on a daily basis. I have been fortunate that I have always been in Combat arms, or combat support MOS's so have had to stay sharp on this skill. Always remember at the end of the day we are all soldiers and need to stay ready to fight that incudes staying in shape, being able to shoot, move, and communicate. That means being able to get from point A to B, and familiar with our weapons systems to take on and out targets. Being able to communicate to higher our status and receive our orders.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Dec 31 at 2016 12:50 PM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Sat, 31 Dec 2016 12:50:30 -0500

If you've ever been lost in a deep forest, the you know how "dependable" GPS is.
Way too many people do not know how to read a compass, even with training, and dead reckoning can only take you so far, even if you know what you are doing. Soldiers need to be trained to use both GPS and Map and compass. Every professional development course and MOS course needs to have Land-Nav training. It is too easy to get lost in the wood, and if you need to Call For Fire, you need to know where you are and how to identify where they are.

Response by 1SG John Highfill made Jan 5 at 2017 7:04 PM

1SG John Highfill — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 19:04:36 -0500

every Soldier need to be proficient in Shoot, Move (land nav ) and Communicate

Response by CW4 Tim Claus made Jan 6 at 2017 6:09 PM

CW4 Tim Claus — Fri, 06 Jan 2017 18:09:11 -0500

If time constraints are a problem with training schedules, cut the social justice warrior garbage and concentrate on basic skills and master the advanced MOS skills needed to succeed in an operational environment. Not all soldiers are grunts, but all need to able to move shoot and communicate effectively.

Response by 1LT Hugh Ghormley made Jan 10 at 2017 8:28 AM

1LT Hugh Ghormley — Tue, 10 Jan 2017 08:28:22 -0500

Gadgets fail. Gadgets fail more often in combat situations. Land Nav skills will always be essential for maximum effectiveness and flexibility. With more emphasis on technology, the fundamentals of troop movement must be kept fresh.

Response by SSG Scott Thelen made Jan 10 at 2017 9:18 AM

SSG Scott Thelen — Tue, 10 Jan 2017 09:18:16 -0500

I watched the Non-Combat MOSs struggle with Land Nav in PLDC. I wondered if they would ever need or use this skill in the hospital they worked in. Perhaps Land Navigation should stay in the curriculum, but not be a "GO or NO-GO" requirement for graduation. There are many things taught in PLDC (Such as E.O. and Ethics) that are not requirements for graduation.

Response by SGT Lloyd Burge made Jan 11 at 2017 12:25 AM

SGT Lloyd Burge — Wed, 11 Jan 2017 00:25:25 -0500

absolutely not!

Response by CPO Paul Niehaus made Jan 11 at 2017 12:35 AM

CPO Paul Niehaus — Wed, 11 Jan 2017 00:35:04 -0500

Oh hell no!!!

Response by SGT Kevin Leake made Jan 19 at 2017 12:00 AM

SGT Kevin Leake — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 00:00:58 -0500

I think that it should be taught starting in basic for night and day land nav and should continue through your time in service.

Response by 1LT Peter Duston made Jan 19 at 2017 4:48 PM

1LT Peter Duston — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:48:30 -0500

Needs to stay in the POI! The SSG below puts it well. It's not only the back-up to the back-up, an intuitive sense of direction can be crucial in a tight spot. We need to know our maps for the bigger land picture and not just rely on our GPS prompts which have no perspective only the limited area around us on the ground.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2017 8:13 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Jan 2017 20:13:23 -0500

Absolutely not!

Response by TSgt James R Mantalas made Jan 24 at 2017 10:12 PM

TSgt James R Mantalas — Tue, 24 Jan 2017 22:12:25 -0500

Hell no compass, map ,distance, time . No more LRRP how are the commanders to know whats ahead ?

Response by SFC Scott Parkhurst made Mar 10 at 2017 3:20 AM

SFC Scott Parkhurst — Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:20:46 -0500

First of all I hated it! LoL! But no, it should not be taken out. Your not always going to be able to depend on a GPS device cause you never know what might happen. I have actually used my training several times and I was super glad I had it! Land navigation is part of military tradition and in some ways it brings soldiers together (while in training).

Response by 1SG James Lyon made Mar 16 at 2017 3:17 PM

1SG James Lyon — Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:17:10 -0400

If anything the requirement should be enhanced. I taught both PLDC and BNOC and was always amazed at the number of students (both combat arms and support) that struggled with Land navigation.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2017 5:18 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Mar 2017 05:18:54 -0400

There are a lot of perishable (easily forgettable) skills in the military. Land Navigation is definitely one of them. With that being said, I do not think it should be "taken out" but, I can understand the limitations with time and training to transition to a more professional and "college"-oriented training for BLC. Units individually are responsible for a lot of the 350-1 training that soldiers receive, while many units do regularly fail to conduct that training to standard (e.g. time/resource constraints/check-the-box). We can see that BLC should set leaders up for success.

In reality, the world is changing. No one really reads a hardprint map anymore, the rise of smartphones and GPS has made that task easier, despite the calls against it (what if it dies, what if it fails, etc). In that case of course, being able to use a compass and plot your grid coordinates is useful, but again it is an easily forgettable skill unless you do it regularly (i.e 1-2 a month?). Plus who is always walking around with a compass and a grid square? Not too many people, even in some high-speed units, they will just give you a DAGR or tell you to use a similar device.

We must of course try to mitigate all this against the greater need to train professional soldiers, who will operate in a multi-domain battlefield, often, soldiers will not be outside the wire in an unknown area battling or navigating some foreign space with no clue how to move around. They will be briefed and given the tools they need to succeed. Leadership has grown and adapted since the days of the early 90s and earlier decades where technology did not play such a crucial role in defending our National interests. With that being said, we must of course ensure that our leaders are competent in at least the most basic skills and of course, Skill Level 1 Warrior Tasks are the very basic soldiering skills which will be again be refreshed on an annual or semi-annual basis with their individual units (hopefully).

Other than that, I would expect any good leader to self-study and stay abreast on anything they need to know with their specific job or assignment to be competent and provide good leadership to their subordinates.

Response by 1stSgt Troy Seals made Jun 20 at 2017 6:18 PM

1stSgt Troy Seals — Tue, 20 Jun 2017 18:18:45 -0400

Want to see a young high speed soldier shit, just let the batteries run down on his handy dandy GPS, or a your pilot. You better know how to navigate.

Response by SSG Eddie Helmling made Jun 22 at 2017 5:34 PM

SSG Eddie Helmling — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:34:18 -0400

EMP

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Jun 22 at 2017 5:50 PM

SFC Jim Ruether — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:50:20 -0400

Hell no! What are you going to do when your batteries go dead in your GPS? It's the most basic of survival skills to know where you are and to find your way back. Who's dumb idea is this to remove it from NCOPDS?

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Jul 18 at 2017 6:33 PM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Tue, 18 Jul 2017 18:33:28 -0400

absolutely, positively NO!!!! being able to utilize a map. protractor, and compass is one of the most important skills you can ever learn - one EMP and all you have is your knowledge

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 21 at 2017 2:22 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 21 Jul 2017 14:22:56 -0400

What is the premise behind this question. Even with all of the worlds modern technology the roots of navigation will never fail you while hardware, software, satellites etc may not get you there. Life is rough when you navigate to a point that turns out to be in the wrong sector of the combat zone. Army Strong!!!

Response by SSG Carl Spivey made Jul 22 at 2017 12:16 AM

SSG Carl Spivey — Sat, 22 Jul 2017 00:16:10 -0400

Hell no

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 7 at 2018 7:46 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 07 Apr 2018 19:46:49 -0400

Why- I saw some NCO's who I would not let call for fire or navigate!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2018 7:50 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Jul 2018 19:50:42 -0400

I don’t think we should take it out. But I do think that the army as a whole needs to dive more into roles and responsibilities at each position. I say this because mentor ship in the army is (from my experience) almost completely unheard of these days. Not to mention since land navigation so the question, when are we as a force going to actually protect SGT’s time training again. I heard my old commander say this and I quote” I don’t mind stepping on SGT’s time training to get this online training done”. I knew in that moment that we have lost a very important part of leadership and training.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2019 3:17 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Mar 2019 03:17:27 -0400

They should remove "field day" from schools and change it to SERE ENE and basic land nav. The kids wont know the difference and they will have a ball while getting a good workout. To the ridiculous question, absolutely not. Land Nav may be a tad "old fashion" considering the day and age we live in..... until, of course, you actually need it.

Response by CSM Eric Olsen made Nov 15 at 2019 6:58 PM

CSM Eric Olsen — Fri, 15 Nov 2019 18:58:32 -0500

As the commandant of the Maneuver CoE NCOA which trains all Infantry and Armor ALC and SLC students (or owns the POIs that the National Guardsmen teach at RTIs), I can say that the ONLY reason we teach/assess on Land Navigation in NCOPDS is because the FORSCOM units don't. The original question is IF WE SHOULD TEACH IN NCOPDS and I say no, but we do obviously need to keep that individual skill at the forefront of all Leader's minds as a VERY perishable skill.
There are just sooo many institutional tasks that we should be spending more time on. Land Nav is a skill level 1 task and all Leaders need to get it on their training calendars-then fight like hell to actually conduct the training-despite the taskings, if your in recruiting, or whatever the excuse. EIB and ESB should not be the only time that units are doing land nav...our 22wk Infantry OSUT grads are coming out of Fort Benning extremely proficient in Land Nav, are their Leaders up to the same level of expertise?

SGM Billy Herrington I am concerned about your comment about never sending someone home for failing land nav, we should talk sometime. We have 25x 11-series ALC students retesting Land Nav on Fort Benning tomorrow, and that's about the average number per class. Plus we are not removing it from BLC, instead we are now certifying the learners on TEACHING this skill...core NCO function. Yes the STX is out.

CSM Private RallyPoint Member very good comments

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2019 7:08 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2019 19:08:15 -0500

I hate when I see posts like this, because I feel like the leadership courses should have MORE of it.
We need leaders capable of performing at the highest levels and without proficiency at tasks like land nav, how can you be expected to train soldiers and develop proficiency in your subordinates?

It would become even more of a necessary skill should we ever come face to face with a force on force conflict, and leaders should not only be proficient, but should be experts at the craft.