As a non-scholarship ROTC cadet, should I pursue an ROTC scholarship or join the Guard (and pursue SMP)?

2018-12-06T08:03:24-05:00

Currently an MS2 with a 3.2 gpa and a 240 pt score. Not on scholarship or in the guard but looking to join or receive a scholarship. Cadre told me I would be competitive for a scholarship but if I don’t get it then it’s to late to sign up for SMP program (basic training summer date). Also if I do the guard/ complete basic and don’t get a contract then I’m stuck in guard. Should I go for scholarship or risk the guard. Asked cadre and he said I will have no problem contracting in future.
I’m asking this because our top rated MS3 just got declined a contract. If he got declined then why will they contract me junior year after basic

Response by COL Dana Hampton made Dec 6 at 2018 8:17 AM

2018-12-06T08:17:20-05:00

It disappoints me to read your views that being in the National Guard is some sort of a bad thing. I was a 3-year scholarship cadet. Earned an Active Duty commission and after 4-years of Active Duty switched to the Reserves and and the to the Guard. After 33 years of successful service leading at the platoon, battery and battalion levels, I retired with nearly half that time serving on Active Duty and 3 overseas deployments. The Guard is an operational force and is used as such. The sooner you realize we are a Total Force to defend this Nation, the better we all will be as an Army.

Service in any component is honorable if served well and faithfully. Take care of your Soldiers and your mission, the rest will take care of itself.

Response by COL John McClellan made Dec 6 at 2018 10:53 AM

2018-12-06T10:53:43-05:00

Hard to answer without knowing more about the school, and the current resources going to scholarships in Cadet Command - but I would tell you to trust your Cadre and meet any/all deadlines they give you for applications, medical exams, etc. etc. Keep your grades up and try to get that PT score to 270+ As a PMS, I had a good deal of latitude on 2yr-3yr on-campus scholarships and what I would have been assessing is: intelligence, character and desire! Live the Army Values and never, never, never quit! Avoid sentences such as "stuck in the Guard..." Good Luck!!

Response by SGT Eric Davis made Dec 6 at 2018 11:16 AM

2018-12-06T11:16:11-05:00

Well if I was you I would join the guard or reserve now that way you can start you career and be ahead on the game! Why wait to join if you plan on joining anyway

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Dec 6 at 2018 11:29 AM

2018-12-06T11:29:07-05:00

OK, I think your big concern is that it restricts you to a Guard commission, which isn't true. While you can contract for a guaranteed Reserve Commission, you don't have to do that even if you did enlist in the Guard and you just compete with everyone else for the Active Duty slots. On the plus side, have an MOS exempts you from the first two years, not much help in your case, gives you a lot of experience as enlisted and as a SMP, you get GI Bill and Drill Pay, plus some states add a kicker for in state schools, and when you commission, you should have over two years Time in Service toward pay. So if you are looking for College money, enlisting in the Guard is the probably a surer route than competing for the scholarships. A ROTC Scholarship does not guarantee an Active Duty commission, but a Guard SMP isn't restricted to going just National Guard either.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Dec 6 at 2018 11:29 AM

2018-12-06T11:29:29-05:00

I didn't get an AFROTC scholarship until my Jr year. One of the best deals ever. Recommend you apply for a scholarship. If there's more than one Service's ROTC programs near you, then apply to all of them. Don't be inhibited by the record of others that did or did not get a scholarship. You don't know their entire record in most cases.

My daughter spent about 10 years in the Air Guard. It was a good experience for her overall. Being "stuck in the Guard" may not be a bad thing. Except for basic and ait it shouldn't interrupt your schooling. Be sure to talk to Guard recruiters from the Army and Air Force before choosing a unit.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Dec 6 at 2018 11:51 AM

2018-12-06T11:51:11-05:00

If you were in my office asking about this, there are 2 questions I would ask you . First, what is your goal after graduation (active duty, Reserve, or Guard). Second, what concerns do you have in paying for college. My default recommendation is for you to compete for a 2-year scholarship. This scholarship option keeps all of your options open for commissioning. If you enlist and become an SMP cadet, your scholarship options limit you to reserve forces duty. If that is your commissioning goal, that would work. Also in many cases, combining state provided NG benefits with an ROTC scholarship becomes the biggest amount of financial benefits you can receive. If you enlist in the NG, there are only a few MOSs that allow you to complete basic and AIT in the same summer. Most others would require you to miss a semester. So you have to look at that as well. I would not worry about what the top-rated MS3 cadet encountered. There are numerous reasons why someone could be refused a contract, many of these you would not have any visibility on to protect privacy rights. Base your decision solely on what you want to do. Again, my recommendation is to go for the scholarship.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Dec 6 at 2018 4:29 PM

2018-12-06T16:29:06-05:00

Just focused on your academics. Everything else will fall in place for you. St the end of the day when it comes to commissioning -either AD or Reserve component and branch selection - that’s what counts; not if you are SMP.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2018 5:34 PM

2018-12-06T17:34:24-05:00

I'd always recommend the SMP Program, one thing to consider even if you don't start off in the guard, if you don't get selected for AD you're in the guard anyway... If you sign up first you at least got to use your GI Bill. (everyone gets a contract for Army ROTC, so I don't understand why a top rated MS3 would get declined a contract perhaps declined a scholarship or declined an Active position???)

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2018 10:16 PM

2018-12-06T22:16:59-05:00

Joe,

If you have submitted a completed scholarship packet to the ROO and have been told you are Good by your Cadre stay the course.

If you have not put in application in you are less than 50% for a potential scholarship for your MSIII year. Your Cadre should be able to tell you now at the end of this semester if you have a shot and if they can’t you should not expect it.

If you need the $€ for college, and can go to Basic and AIt this summer-do it. But slots are filling up now and you need to get on the stick! You can go Guard and then when you completebTraining you get the benefits due for the state but not the federal benefits since you have to serve a minimum time before contracting.

But no worries! You can enlist now, go to the guard unit you will serve in (in some states it’s a holding company at the State Guard Camp) and start the paperwork for a release to ROTC (TAG approval) or a release for ROTC Guard (CO Cdr and Officer Strength manager) so when you return you can immediately process into ROTC, even if it takes some time, the HRA can code you “B” pending contract and when it happens you will get the retrograde benefits from the Conditional contracting code entry.

Drawbacks-you Lee your Guard contract if you don’t commission active duty, if you get Non select for Active you can ask to go USAR or stay in Guard if non-scholarship GRFD.

Pros-Your low PT score will be much better after basic for your two record MSIII and one camp test, you will be more ready for camp than ever, you will get some money and benefits from going to basic/AIT.

Not sure what school you are in but your SMI and APMS should be able to help you make the right decision moving forward and work with them along the way. Your PT score needs to jump 40-60 pits and GPA .1-3 to be very competitive for Active Duty, along with high OML score at school, good camp performance and some extra curricular stuff on campus (PMS can explain all the points available)

If you are getting no traction just PM me and I can help you navigate if you need help.

Good Luck Warrior!

Response by MAJ T. W. made Dec 7 at 2018 10:51 AM

2018-12-07T10:51:25-05:00

If you do SMP, that is fine. Just do not accept a reserve scholarship. You will not be able to go active. Also, your SMP years will add on to your time in service when you retire.

Response by LTC Michael Brantley made Dec 7 at 2018 2:09 PM

2018-12-07T14:09:45-05:00

At lot depends on the school and the State you are in. When I was an APMS I could never recommend my students take a 2 yr scholarship. In my state the guard tuition reimbursement was much better for my students plus it gave them additional experience and TIS for pay purposes. Having good Guard and Reserve units in the area helped. Way too many variables to give you absolute recommendations.

Response by 1LT Christopher Gonzales made Dec 7 at 2018 4:49 PM

2018-12-07T16:49:34-05:00

I went Guard to AD. I think that it gives you a valuable perspective that's worth it. You get your education paid for and you have drill. Once I went E to Cadet, my unit placed me in charge of things and pushed me to learn what makes an Officer an effective resource for Soldiers and not the single point of failure because he or she thinks everything goes through them.

Going through the Guard and getting that small taste really helps you see perspectives from junior Enlisted and NCOs, people you are going to rate.

Any exposure you can get that helps you understand not just rank structures and regs, but what's important, right now, to Soldiers and how to solve that is worth the time.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 1:39 PM

2018-12-08T13:39:36-05:00

It'd really help to know what major you are, whether you're STEM, clinical, or non-STEM...I can suggest a variety of other things you can submit for, I just often get told I tend to send far too much on occasion, which tends to overwhelm...that being said, if you're not on scholarship yet, nor are you Guard, Reserve, or SMP, lemme suggest a few things you might care to look at, if only to just think about, OK? Meanwhile, do a much more thorough, detailed biosketch, incl. hobbies, interests, reading, sports, esp. martial arts, if any (I favor aikido and iaido)...also, are you running regularly now? Can you do 2 mi. in 18 mins. max, in fatigues and combat boots, which is what I'd had to do while I'd been in 3 yrs. of Army ROTC before going USAF OTS? While I'd been at USAF OTS at Lackland, before it got moved to Maxwell where it is now, I had to do 1.5 mi. in 12 mins. max in shorts and sneakers...upper body strength is a totally different matter, of course. Next, would you want grad level, which I'd VERY strongly suggest, BEFORE going in, as, regardless of what ANYONE tells you, the moment you'd go warrant or commission, you'd be expected, quite literally from day one, to get, MINIMUM, a masters, trust me, regardless of svc or component, been there, done that (BTDT). If you want doctoral-level clinical at all, or, if you're a STEM major, trust me, there's no substitute for being at the top of the intellectual food chain BEFORE you go in, you're less distracted, plus, your GPA is decent enough that you "might" actually stand a chance at a grad, research, and/or teaching assistantship (GA/RA/TA) in a masters program to start, esp. if you can do a masters at whatever school you're at now. Then, too, there are always the regular OCS programs, or direct-commission indoc OIS programs as well...further, you could also go warrant, I'll suggest stuff for you, esp. if you're IT or comp sci (CS) at all...lemme send this, then I'll send you some more stuff, if I send too much, just lemme know, I'll try to ratchet down the volume, OK?

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 1:51 PM

2018-12-08T13:51:44-05:00

http://www.sgaus.org

Depending on what state and/or territory you're in, SGAUS is the main professional body for the state defense forces (SDFs), the supplements to the Natl Guards, both ARNG (Army), as well as ANG (Air)...they're real militaries, that let you be a supplement to ARNG/ANG where you are...where we are, in NY, there's the NY Guard (NYG), which isn't Federally recognized, however, it does a lot of supplement stuff for the ARNG/ANG in NY...there's also the NY Naval Militia (NYNM), which IS Federally recognized, however, only because the bulk, 95%+ of its members, are drilling USNR, USMCR, and/or USCGR members, who drill with NYS through NYNM, NYNM also has a program to compete for scholarship funding at SUNY schools, I don't know how other states/territories handle such things. Now, the specific reasons I suggest it are these: First, many don't even know SDFs exist at all. Second, they let you test the waters, going through state/territory-run boot camps and/or OCS programs, "generally" without needing to deploy out of state...understand, NYG and NYNM got called up in NY during both 9/11 as well as Hurricane Sandy, so, once you're activated, you're in, typically paid, though in NYG I was told one can waive pay if one wishes, till a given emergency is over, whatever it might be, hurricanes, fires, flooding, what have you...I couldn't do NYG as I'm total perm disabled, which totally bollixed up my wish to be involved, though I did actually yak with NYG guys a few times, if only to try, as I'd been doctoral-level allied health, we shut my license several years ago due to the whole disability thing, I'd just been eager for something to do. Further, had I known that such SDFs existed BEFORE I'd gone Army ROTC and then USAF OTS (which I also totally bollixed up, due to not knowing what I was doing, or how to do it right back then), I'd certainly have VERY strongly considered it...typically, my understanding is that an SDF member, if the get into a Federal service, can "generally", I "think" be released to accept Federal, since Federal typically supercedes SDFs in such instances...so, that being said, at least just check to see if your state/territory has an SDF, there are generally Wikipedia pages on all of them, they also generally have websites of their own, with phone listings, lemme send this, then I'll send you more also, OK? I'm just suggesting it, as that way, you get to test drive the Audi, if you will, without necessarily needing to dive in head first, so as to see if you're even suited to the life, that's all I'm suggesting...I'm not saying to not go Federal, certainly, I merely suggest SDFs as a useful possible waystation alternative you might at least care to consider initially, that's my only point, honest, OK?

SGAUS – State Guard Association of the United States

State Guard Association of the United States

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 1:52 PM

2018-12-08T13:52:59-05:00

http://www.ocsfoundation.org

You'll find this a useful site, it's not all-inclusive, it doesn't list Army WOCS, nor does it have direct-commission indoc OIS programs, however, it does have the five main OCS programs, plus, the forum pages are actually quite good, I've sent it in here several times before, as have others....

OCS Foundation

SERVICES FOR: Candidates Alumni Officer Families

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 1:54 PM

2018-12-08T13:54:40-05:00

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/united-states-marine-corps-platoon-leaders-course-3332801

I don't know if this would be for you, however, I merely suggest it, as, typically, most generally know of ROTCs and OCS programs, though not OIS types, nor this...purely FYI, honest...there's a school by us that has it, which was how I'd originally learned of it some time back....

US Marine Corps Platoon Leader Course: What You Need to Know

The Marine Corps Platoon Leaders Course (PLC) is an alternative for NROTC or OCS for college students who wish to become commissioned officers.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 1:58 PM

2018-12-08T13:58:38-05:00

https://www.usphs.gov/student/

Look esp. here at Jr. and Sr. COSTEP, the USPHS analogue to ROTC and USMC PLC...also, I've seen a good deal of material, incl. on here, that ROTCs, and, I "think" COSTEP, "possibly" also USMC PLC, can actually also be used for grad school, NOT solely undergrad, just food for thought, OK? They also have engineering at USPHS, as well as IT/comp sci (CS), for med admin informatics, though those might be full...however, if you have any clinical inclinations at all, trust me, you'll want to look at this...if you're at all inclined toward psych-related clinical, whether RN, NP, PA, MSW, LCSW, what have you, USPHS also has agreements with the other svc clinicals for 3-yr stabilized tours with them, as the other svcs are apparently quite short on psych-related clinical staff...once again, just food for thought, OK?

Student Opportunities at USPHS Commissioned Corps

USPHS Commissioned Corps: internships, financial assistance, loan repayments, externships, other student opportunies.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 2:03 PM

2018-12-08T14:03:59-05:00

https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/current-and-prior-service/advance-your-career/warrant-officer/flight-warrant-officers.html

Obviously, you didn't say if you have any flight inclinations, plus, Army WOCS we actually had a family friend go through it, I gather it's a pretty rough program, he was Army enlisted, did Army WOCS, went rotary wing, then got his bachelors in aviation through Embry-Riddle Univ., Army released him, USCG picked him up, he finished out his 20 yrs. as a USCG O-3...if you have flight interests, this only needs, minimum, high school, I just didn't know if you'd know about it, or if you'd serious considered warrant at all, ARNG has a good many rotary wing units attached to it, I've noticed....

Flight Warrant Officers

If you have dreamed of becoming a helicopter or fixed-wing pilot, the Army can help you turn that dream into a reality. Warrant Officers fly some of the most exciting, technologically advanced aircraft in the world.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 2:26 PM

2018-12-08T14:26:35-05:00

https://search.aol.com/aol/search?q=part%20time%20ocs%20for%20state%20army%20national%20guard&s_it=loki-tb-sb

Read these on part-time state-level OCS programs for ARNG, they're NOT the main Army OCS at Ft. Benning, they're totally separate, I just didn't know if you'd known of them, the link should work, if not, just use Google, and search for part-time OCS for state Army National Guard, and you'll bring up all the links, OK? I don't know if all states and/or territories have them, also, I think ANG only uses ?USAF OTS, I don't think there are ANG part-time OCS programs, as there are for ARNG, WOCS, I think there's only the main one at Ft. Rucker, AL, where the rotary-wing training is done, at least so far as I know, OK?

part%20time%20ocs%20for%20state%20army%20national%20guard - AOL Search Results

Ken Kirk[kaptain-kirk@msn.com[Wow%2C%20I%20am%20so%20glad%20you%5C%27re%20back%20online.%20I%20live%20in%20San%20Diego%20california%20but%20I%20love%20reading%20my ...

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 2:28 PM

2018-12-08T14:28:07-05:00

https://www.dcmilitary.com/tester/news/local/navy-expands-cyber-warrant-program/article_41cd7fc9-2704-5598-b223-d640f085659c.html

If you've got any cyber inclinations, I'd noticed this some time back, Army has their own direct-commission OIS route, I'll send that, also, OK?

Navy expands Cyber Warrant Program

The Navy announced the implementation of warrant officer 1 (WO1) pay grade (W-1) for cyber warrant officers and the application process for fiscal year (FY) 2019 and FY 2020 WO1

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 2:28 PM

2018-12-08T14:28:51-05:00

https://www.goarmy.com/army-cyber/cyber-direct-commissioning-program.html

Here's the Army direct-commission cyber version....

Cyber Direct Commissioning Program

System admin, web developer, programmer. Put your civilian experience to work and become an officer in the Army through the Cyber Direct Commissioning Program.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 2:30 PM

2018-12-08T14:30:03-05:00

https://search.aol.com/aol/search?q=uscg%20direct%20commission%20program&s_it=loki-tb-sb

Look at these for USCG direct-commission, there's a page on here for PA, if you want clinical at all, USCG has their own, for everything else clinical, they use USPHS, normally....

uscg%20direct%20commission%20program - AOL Search Results

The Direct Commission Officer programs represent one of the primary ways that the United States Coast Guard meets critical specialty needs. These programs are designed for highly motivated individuals with specialized education and experience ranging from engineering, law, and aviation, among other areas.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 2:30 PM

2018-12-08T14:30:44-05:00

https://www.gocoastguard.com/active-duty-careers/officer-opportunities/programs/direct-commission-engineer-dce

This is the USCG direct-commission page for engineers....

Direct Commission Engineer (DCE) | GoCoastGuard.com

The direct commission engineer (DCE) program provides engineers and technologists with leadership opportunities in program management, implementing systems that enable and support Coast Guard missions. Experienced C4IT engineers are needed to advance our systems infrastructure in a rapidly modernizing organization.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 2:32 PM

2018-12-08T14:32:14-05:00

https://www.omao.noaa.gov/topic/general/basic-officer-training-class-botc

If you want pure science, they also have one of the best diving programs, and use USPHS as well for clinical, and have a 5-yr. flight program, if you'd wanna try for it, NOAA Corps is something you might at least care to know about....

Basic Officer Training Class (BOTC) | Office of Marine and Aviation Operations

The content listed below has been tagged with the topic "Basic Officer Training Class (BOTC)." Explore other topics to discover additional exciting content.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 2:33 PM

2018-12-08T14:33:49-05:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_Institute_of_Technology

Read about this, all warrants and commissioned, as well as, at least, senior USAF NCOs, are allowed to apply, the latter for their Ph.D.s, I saw a YouTube video on that, I'd wanted to go, I could never get it....

Air Force Institute of Technology - Wikipedia

The Air Force Institute of Technology (AFIT) is a graduate school and provider of professional and continuing education for the United States Armed Forces and is part of the United States Air Force. It is located in Ohio at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, near Dayton. AFIT is a component of the Air University and Air Education and Training Command.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Dec 8 at 2018 2:35 PM

2018-12-08T14:35:59-05:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Postgraduate_School

This is the Navy version, I had a serious recommend for my masters there full-time when I'd been in, I couldn't get that one, either, I'm afraid...they have a fully online Ph.D. in systems science you might also care to glance at...you'd likely need to do a couple of tours perfectly to have a serious chance here or at AFIT, I merely mention them, as many generally don't even know they exist....

Naval Postgraduate School - Wikipedia

The Naval Postgraduate School (NPS) is a graduate school operated by the United States Navy. Located in Monterey, California, it grants master's degrees, engineer's degrees and doctoral degrees. Established in 1909, the school also offers research fellowship opportunities at the postdoctoral level through the National Academies' National Research Council research associateship program.[3]

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2018 2:02 PM

2018-12-25T14:02:03-05:00

Just continue on as a non scholarship cadet. You’ll contract at the beginning of your MS3 year and You still get to compete for active duty. I’d recommend you bring your APFT score up to increase the likelihood of AD.

Response by CPT Brad Wilson made Sep 22 at 2019 12:16 PM

2019-09-22T12:16:34-04:00

I was a 4 year non scholarship ROTC Cadet (too old to get the scholarship) that was an SMP. Unless it’s changed you don’t have to go to basic to be an SMP. My junior year I decided to do it filled out the paperwork with ROTC joined the Guard and did it Took less than a month. If you fail or quit ROTC then your Guard contract comes into play and you go to the next available Basic Training. You also are not “stuck” in the Guard. Several of my soldiers after our deployments and some after Basic decided they wanted to go Active and did it The paper shuffle took a month or so but was fairly painless. If you decide to do SMP instead of the scholarship the advantage of going to Basic is number one the experience you get and you will also get the GI Bill The advantage of being an SMP in the Guard is many states offer free tuition books and fees to Guard members