Can A Specialist (Team Leader) Council another Specialist for Disrespect?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2020 17:28:47 -0400

Here's the Situation: I had a Female Specialist come to me and ask if she can Council a Male Soldier for disrespect. This Female was just recently given the position of Team Leader and is in charge of about Ten Soldiers, including this soldier. This Male Soldier had released himself and went home. Now when the Female Soldier Specialist called to ask where he was, he replied, saying he was home. Now When she asked, Why, this Soldier got mad at her. In turn, this eventually came to him, Screaming at her and saying unpleasant things that degraded her as a person. This Soldier screaming was heard in the other offices, wasn't very nice to hear such things.

Well, When it came to writing his counseling, the female specialist was told she couldn't because they are the same rank, and the soldier had more time as a specialist than her. My first answer was, of course, she can he was her soldier. Regardless of rank, she could still counsel them for it, as the soldier disrespected his leader and in a degrading way.

So what happened next was another argument between the NCOs and me in her platoon that I was wrong. And that I shouldn't give this soldier False information. I responded in Kind that if she doesn't have the rank to counsel this soldier. Then as the NCOs, they should because they were in the same room as she called this soldier on the phone. They heard it and I most certainly heard it. However, they politely responded with 'He's not their Soldier.' I left it at that, but I don't think I am wrong. When I was a specialist, I had often Counseled other specialists when I was a Team Leader. So, I want to know f I am really wrong?

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Oct 22 at 2020 10:08 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Thu, 22 Oct 2020 22:08:29 -0400

Yes, Team leaders not only can, but SHOULD, be counseling their team soldiers.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 23 at 2020 9:39 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 23 Oct 2020 09:39:02 -0400

A counseling is just a written record of a conversation. Anyone can counsel anyone for anything.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Oct 23 at 2020 11:51 AM

CPT Tom Monahan — Fri, 23 Oct 2020 11:51:17 -0400

This is where the Army screwed up with keeping the rank Specialist and being afraid to use Corporals. If a Specialist is truly acting in a non-supervisory role such as a mechanic, armored, machine gunner, lab tech, etc. keep them wearing the shield. A Specialist placed in a Team Leader roll should be a Corporal on the spot. Instead of using the Corporal rank I’ve seen Specialist made acting Sargents which is just weird. All the other branches make the E-4 pay grade an NCO or a Petty Office. I think the Army must think the use the SPC rank as a pay incentive improves retention.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2020 12:20 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2020 12:20:15 -0400

the mere fact that she was given the leadership position over another specialist with more TIG, tells me all I need to know about this guy. Bottom line: her position as Team Leader gives her the authority over everyone on her team. Many years ago, I was a 1LT HHC CO and I counseled a female MAJ for constantly skipping out on PT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2020 1:16 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2020 13:16:35 -0400

Team leader needs to have squad leader or platoon sgt in with her during counseling.
She is voice of leadership above her, so S.B. spc is disrespecting whole chain.
This needs stops before it progress'.
I give my team leaders whatever support needed, even if that means I set them straight.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2020 2:04 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2020 14:04:24 -0400

So here's is an Update: This Morning, I talked to their Platoon Leader about the Situation. Not Even a few Seconds after explaining the Situation he called all his NCOs and had the Specialist (Team Leader) and had the Specialist call this soldier in front of him. Now I had left at this point and went back into the Office, forgive me for being noisy. But, the moment the Male Specialist answered he started screaming at her (Team Leader). I couldn't make anything out but he hung up. Dead Silence followed. The Platoon Leader said nothing when he walked out, He looked 'mad', I had never seen an Officer so red before.

Honestly, I only posted for Clarification about Counseling Soldiers of the same rank. I thank Everyone for responding and giving me Just Clarification. I appreciate Your time to answer and giving me your viewpoints.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Oct 23 at 2020 4:00 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Fri, 23 Oct 2020 16:00:02 -0400

You are not wrong. If a they aren't letting a team leader do their job they are crippling them as a leader while also ruining their credibility as well.

Response by SSG Dale London made Oct 23 at 2020 5:33 PM

SSG Dale London — Fri, 23 Oct 2020 17:33:24 -0400

This is a thorny issue. The UCMJ specifically limits this to disrespecting officers and NCO's so no "official" action can be taken because a Specialist is not an NCO. However, a counselling statement is not an official action. It is a record of a conversation. It can be used in evaluating performance and determining if any extra training is required to correct a deficiency of character or performance.
In your friend's shoes I would conduct the counselling along the lines of poor military bearing, inappropriate behavior, and failure to be at his appointed place of duty. I would then pass it to the PSG with a recommendation for extra training -- creativity in what the recommended training ought to look like would be advised.
She might suggest that the soldier be required to report to the CQ every hour for 24 hours in different uniforms to ensure he understood what it means to be present for duty on time and in the right uniform. She might also recommend the soldier be enrolled in whatever EO orientation is being given. It would be especially poignant if there were a basic training unit nearby where the specialist would be required to take the class with the recruits.
I guarantee that he will get the message - as will the whole squad: don't mess with your positional superior. It's a bad plan.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Oct 23 at 2020 9:45 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 23 Oct 2020 21:45:37 -0400

Hell Yes, she' a TL and in charge by virtue of position. Good Grief I was an SSG PSG and PL for almost 3 yrs, and I had 3 SSG Sqd ldrs, I even did their NCOERS.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2021 2:35 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Feb 2021 02:35:12 -0500

I know I'm late to the party on this SGT but she can and should. She has been entrusted with a position of responsibility, and not a lot of Team Leaders end up as Corporals before taking up their position.

Where this TL needs to take care is when conducting a negative counseling to make sure that it can be utilized by the chain going forward. For example, lets say the SPC in the wrong continues this trend and gets worse. If it's not properly documented JAG is just going to kick it back most of the time when it comes time to push any kind of UCMJ action.

It's not so fun explaining to the command team why I can't use their NCO's counselings but it's something I've had to do many times. So for this TL I would recommend she practice writing 5W's, get some peer review from her NCO's, and check with her local JAG for a good "magic bullet" statement for the end of her key points.

A good 4856 with follow up can do a lot to correct and prevent future issues.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Oct 1 at 2021 9:13 PM

Cpl Christopher Bishop — Fri, 01 Oct 2021 21:13:34 -0400

Id think anyone whom has a billet above you is senior to you regardless of rank.

Response by CPT Thomas Monahan made Jan 14 at 2022 11:59 AM

CPT Thomas Monahan — Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:59:29 -0500

The TL should be a Corporal vs a Specialist. That being done an NCO is now counseling a SPC.