Can an officer make you sign something?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2022 17:00:35 -0400

Long story short, our 1SG left our unit and the command got them a going away gift. Our 1LT told everyone they WILL sign it before going home. Some of my soldiers didn’t agree with this 1SG not like them.

Can the signature of something like this be considered a lawful order? Just picking y’all’s brains. I could care less but curious with how the Army would view this if a soldier was adamant not to sign.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2022 5:26 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2022 17:26:58 -0400

Does the order sound illegal, immoral or unethical to you?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2022 7:01 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2022 19:01:54 -0400

This is one of those situations where it could go either way. Making someone sign a gift...well, that's just being petty. Not wanting to sign it because of no love lost (from either direction), that's petty as well. I don't rightly see it as a lawful order nor do I see it as an unlawful order. Personally, I'd love to see the 1LT really try and push UCMJ for this. They'd probably get laughed at and possibly chewed up a bit. It all boils down to a hill to die on and how petty people want to be.

Personally, I think this is one of those "go along to get along" kind of deals where just signing it and driving on with the day will not break the bank. But, that's just me.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2022 7:01 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2022 19:01:54 -0400

The fact that your leadership is forcing your Soldiers to sign speaks volumes on the legacy your former 1SG left behind.

Response by COL Randall C. made Oct 18 at 2022 8:40 PM

COL Randall C. — Tue, 18 Oct 2022 20:40:52 -0400

I'm not going to restate the answer I and others gave before as this is a variation on the, "Can your command make you clean someone’s house?" question*, but I will emphasize one part of it - Will you get into 'trouble' for not doing it - likely (probably every crap job the 1LT has comes your way or other imaginative stuff...)

However, the answers that MSG Private RallyPoint Member and MSG Private RallyPoint Member are dead on.

Is is right? No. You should never have to force people to sign a card. If I was that LT's commander, I'd have a few words with him. It sounds like the 1LT doesn't understand leadership very well and probably needs some refresher training.

One phrase you'll probably hear over and over again in your career - "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" Simply put, are the results you're going to get worth the effort you put in or the problems you're going to cause?

Can you say "No, I'm not going to do it"? Absolutely. As MSG Private RallyPoint Member said, I'd really like to see the results that happen to the XO if this is pushed up the channels for official punishment.

However, "is the juice worth the squeeze"? You're going to alienate the unit XO (assume it's the XO) and what do you get? Well, you let the leadership know who's right! Stand on that moral high-ground but don't expect any favors that you'll ask for in the future from leadership if they are the petty type (and it sounds like this is a petty situation on both sides).

I'm reminded of a nugget of wisdom that was shared by an E-5 as I sat in on her court martial when I was a young LT. I recall her saying, "I never thought I was giving up my freedom when I signed up to protect the freedom of others".

The military isn't fair. You're going to have a lot of hard choices you have to make in your career even if you aren't put in any untenable positions most never wish on others. Simply making choices of career over family, friends or self is hard enough and will cause you much consternation.

Don't sweat the small stuff, and believe me, signing a card of someone you don't like (or even dislike) is incredibly small stuff. If you want to feel morally superior, scrawl some chicken-scratch and nobody will ever know the difference.

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* https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/can-your-command-make-you-clean-someone-s-house?urlhash=7912446

Can your command make you clean someone’s house? | RallyPoint

So a buddy of mine is watching another troops home & dog while he’s in the field and the troops wife is gone. The first day he goes over to let the dog out he find that the house is disgusting, dog feces everywhere, trash all over the place just generally nasty. So my buddy tells his NCO that he doesn’t know what to do because he doesn’t want to go back to that house. Well his platoon leadership for rear d says that everybody is going to...

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Oct 19 at 2022 7:36 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Wed, 19 Oct 2022 07:36:03 -0400

It is petty of the 1Lt. And I see it as something that would ultimately embarrass him, but do you really want to go through the hassle that will likely come with it. I personally would sign and brief my new 1SG and Company commander. Where is the Pltaoon Sgt in all of this.

Either way not worth the hassle that could come.

Company level leadership is close enough to the ground to know they are not respected, like is not a case. You don’t have to like anyone, did they have your respect. I am sure he knows.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Oct 19 at 2022 10:51 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Wed, 19 Oct 2022 10:51:45 -0400

It comes down to whether the juice is worth the squeeze. Lt's like things to be uniformed and in order. It's not uncommon for a gift to get everyone's signature. If it is that big of an issue you could ghost the LT on the signature, make a few signature add-ons for the Troops on their behalf. Or they could squash the beef and sign the gift. They aren't the only folks forced to fake a smile for an outgoing SNCO/Officer they didn't care for. It's inevitable that you will have to be professional around folks you don't like or respect. The LT certainly doesn't have enough to charge you or anyone if they don't sign but is it worth all the static?

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Oct 19 at 2022 11:36 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 19 Oct 2022 11:36:18 -0400

So, 1SG leaving, well he can't come after anybody, but are you going to be petty enough to not sign? Not costing anything, and it does not acknowledge approval- you are being nice- look it up.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2022 12:12 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Oct 2022 12:12:14 -0400

It's not a contract, just scribble on the card.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2022 1:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Oct 2022 13:52:35 -0400

They can't make anyone sign a going away gift. There are times I haven't signed those things- sometimes I didn't want to, sometimes I wasn't there to do it.

This is one of those pick your battles kind of things. You either just do it - you can just sign your name and no well wishes. Or you refuse and then it's the LT's hands what they want to do. They won't get very far with legal trying to push UCMJ on it though.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Oct 19 at 2022 3:19 PM

MSG Thomas Currie — Wed, 19 Oct 2022 15:19:30 -0400

The order might be inappropriate, but ALL orders are presumed "lawful" unless the order directs you to do something that is prohibited by law or regulation.

The standard military principle of "Obey First, Complain Later" may be very unappealing but is rooted in the nature of the military service. You don't get to pick and choose which orders you obey... It doesn't really matter whether that order is to sign the item being given someone you don't like as a departure gift or conducting a light cavalry charge at the Battle of Balaclava.

The really striking thing about this question is that fact that someone could reach NCO rank and still ask the question, but I suspect that lack of military comprehension might be related to the apparent lack of the unit's military leadership that brought about the situation in the first place.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Oct 19 at 2022 4:24 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Wed, 19 Oct 2022 16:24:22 -0400

I could be wrong, but I don't think the outgoing 1SG will lose any sleep because a few kids refused to sign. But that isn't really the issue.
Instant, intelligence obedience to orders is the problem. Signing the gift (or cleaning your teammates dogshit infested house) is not an order that deserves deep thought regarding the legality. It's not a love letter or reenlistment paperwork. As their leader you should be explaining that it is a unit morale issue and that they should comply.
"A superior’s order is presumed to be lawful and is disobeyed at the subordinate’s peril. To sustain the presumption, the order must relate to military duty. It must not conflict with the statutory or constitutional rights of the person receiving the order. Finally, it must be a specific mandate to do or not to do a specific act. In sum, an order is presumed lawful if it has a valid military purpose and is a clear, precise, narrowly drawn mandate. United States v. Moore, 58 M.J. 466 (C.A.A.F. 2003). The dictates of a person’s conscience, religion, or personal philosophy cannot excuse disobedience. United States v. Stockman, 17 M.J. 530 (A.C.M.R. 1973).
If the 1LT were ordering them to kill babies, I would understand the hesitation. Remember, an order given should be assumed legal unless it obviously isn't. If allowed to question such a simple, noninvasive little thing, they will eventually question everything.
If I were in your shoes I would have them write a 2000 word essay on why they feel the right to disregard an order from a Commissioned Officer.

God forbid we ever have to storm a beach in the face of our enemy. I'm sure half would want to speak with JAG first.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2022 12:13 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Oct 2022 00:13:34 -0400

Hell no. Fun fact, LTs can barely make people do anything. That's why God created the SFC and gifted him to all us LTs.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2022 9:46 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 09:46:39 -0400

A dumb order is not the same as an illegal one.

At the end of the day the real question should be "is this the hill you want to die on?" You could fight this and the CC will probably tell the LT to knock it off, but then you'll always be "that guy" in the eyes of the command.

Or you could sign the card with some generic statement like "Good luck" -Sgt Sheedy.

Response by SFC Sfc Darwin Maring, USA Ret made Oct 29 at 2022 12:44 PM

SFC Sfc Darwin Maring, USA Ret — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 12:44:42 -0400

No, You dont have to but don't be surprised when you wind up doing some unpleasant things in the near future.

Response by SP5 James Filhart made Oct 29 at 2022 6:04 PM

SP5 James Filhart — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 18:04:23 -0400

I don't believe they can

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Oct 29 at 2022 7:33 PM

SGT Juan Robledo — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 19:33:19 -0400

No, unless you agree to do so

Response by Maj Dale Smith made Oct 30 at 2022 4:34 PM

Maj Dale Smith — Sun, 30 Oct 2022 16:34:57 -0400

I agree with Col Cudworth's answer. Did you like your 1SG? If so, do it for him since this sounds like a going away card for a PCS. No, you can't be forced to sign a document (going away card) against your will, however, is this the "hill you want to die on"? This would be a social request and not a military one. Traditionally, the entire Company/Batallion would sign a card for the guy that was looking out for your best interests and that of the corps. If you don't sign a card sponsored by the Company/Batallion, it probably won't be noticed. If the card is from your Squad pr Platoon, your not signing it will stand out like a sore thumb. These are judgement calls and part of your enlistment is getting along with the rest of your unit since some day you may need to call upon them to save your ass. A little sociability now may go a long way for the future.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Oct 30 at 2022 7:37 PM

SFC Kenneth Hunnell — Sun, 30 Oct 2022 19:37:43 -0400

No, you can not be forced to sign anything that does not relate to you

Response by PO2 Michael Henry made Oct 31 at 2022 12:29 AM

PO2 Michael Henry — Mon, 31 Oct 2022 00:29:50 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member I know I'm late and it's been answered so I'll keep it short. The answer is no, they can't make you sign anything. However, as COL Randall C. suggested "If you want to feel morally superior, scrawl some chicken-scratch and nobody will ever know the difference."

Now for a legal issue... you can still deny but you better be right and better be worth the trouble.

Response by 1SG Michael Bonnett made Oct 31 at 2022 1:26 AM

1SG Michael Bonnett — Mon, 31 Oct 2022 01:26:09 -0400

Never comprise your integrity. Tell them "NO" and that harassment will lead to a Court Martial. No one willing to tell someone they will force you to do something against the UMCJ will not have the moral courage to follow thru. A 1SGT that is willing to take something signed by everyone has to know it is forced and morally is bankrupt and should be separated from the military at the earliest possibility. I never had a "I love me" wall and never had much respect for anyone who did. If you do not take a stand on that first little hill it will become that much harder on the next one. BTW there is a thing called Moral Courage, it's pretty important and anyone advising you to skip out on it probably does not have much of their own.

Response by SSG Mark G Smith made Nov 1 at 2022 10:05 AM

SSG Mark G Smith — Tue, 01 Nov 2022 10:05:28 -0400

I wouldn't sign the card and let the chips fall where they may. Making too big a deal of it would reflect more poorly on the 1LT and the 1SG than the service member, in my opinion. Whatever happens is not likely to have any long term effect. I can't imagine a CSM or a CO letting something like this get beyond their level.

Response by CMDCM Bev Brennan made Nov 2 at 2022 4:25 PM

CMDCM Bev Brennan — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 16:25:23 -0400

Don't know about the Army, but if that happened in one of my Navy commands, I'd ask the Sailor why they didn't want to sign, then say "Noted" and move on with the mission. Life's too short to get wrapped around the axle over something like a farewell gift.