Centralized promotion boards fair or not?

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 01:19:13 -0500

My question to the population of servicemen and women is simply this. Are centralized promotion boards fair or not? Maybe? I have an opinion having sat on a board and wish to know the field and it's opinion before I step out there and create some food for thought.

Response by CW4(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2013 2:30 AM

CW4(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Nov 2013 02:30:10 -0500

I would say that it is not a perfect system. However, based on the individuals I have known who have been selected and non-selected, the decisions seemed justified 99% of the time. In my opinion the ability of a centralized board to "get it right" is based on the rater and senior raters being honest in their assessment. To many times you see an individual who is a "good guy" and is board eligible receive an ACOM OER. This skews the system is he is not truly an ACOM Officer. Additionally, I have seen where rank becomes the deciding factor in placing individuals into key jobs. Unfortunately with today's downsizing and promotion numbers that luxury should avoided. The best qualified individual needs to be placed in that position. That is a subject for different a discussion.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2013 8:30 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Dec 2013 08:30:13 -0500

CW5 Baker,

Since you were afforded the opportunity to sit on the promotion board, I have a few questions for you.

1) As a CW3 prepares to compete for promotion to CW4 and he or she has at least a Bachelor's Degree (recommended IAW DA PAM 600-3), does that individual receive at least a 5+ and perhaps a Master's will warrant a 6+? Is that how it works in a sense? For this particular question, is the point system subjective or objective in nature? Is there a strict guideline that must be followed when assigning points?

2) OERs--receiving several ACOMs and strong write-ups that reflect, "promote to CW4 below-the-zone" (even though there is no such thing, but looks good), top 5% Warrant Officer, does that individual receive a 6+ if you throw in groom for CW5 or clearly a future CW5?

How did you personally rate someone's overall profile as it pertained to each section? ORB, education, OERs, etc..

Thank you CW5 Baker.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Dec 25 at 2013 8:38 AM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Wed, 25 Dec 2013 08:38:44 -0500

Chief - I believe that they are about as fair as they can be. I base that opinion on numerous briefings that I have received from CSMs who have also sat on Senior NCO Promotion Boards. Board members are provided strict voting instructions. I believe that takes out the "I know that guy/gal" from the voting process. Those Board members rank those considered for promotion into an OML. After that is when the "number to promote" is provided.

Response by CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. made Dec 26 at 2013 1:33 PM

CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. — Thu, 26 Dec 2013 13:33:42 -0500

Chief,

I think they are as fair as raters and senior raters are honest.

Response by SFC Josh Watson made Jan 8 at 2014 8:36 AM

SFC Josh Watson — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 08:36:22 -0500

That's a great question for your 1SG.  He probably knows your CSM pretty well and could ask the question on your behalf.  I'm sure he has his reasons and if asked, would explain.  It sounds to me that the Soldiers and NCO's deserve to know this to better help with preparing for the promotion board.

Response by SSG William Sutter made Apr 17 at 2014 5:23 AM

SSG William Sutter — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 05:23:08 -0400

I seriously think it is flawed. I know some of those that have been getting promoted over the years and I have not been selected yet. Don't get me wrong, I am not an Iron Mike nor am I the best NCO that walked the earth. I am the type of NCO that will steer a Soldier right and guide them to where they need to go. There are too many NCOERs that get steroids poured all over them and that is keeping those of us with the true and honest NCOER back.

Response by SFC Douglas Eshenbaugh made Apr 17 at 2014 6:57 AM

SFC Douglas Eshenbaugh — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 06:57:11 -0400

Any system that relies on the subjective evaluation of many to make an objective decision by a few is flawed at the heart.  <br>

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 7:10 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 07:10:32 -0400

Chief I would say they are fair but I have a good understanding of how they work. I have had the opportunity to actuallly sit down with a CSM that had sat on a promotion board. He walked me through the whole process of the board from the time a member gets selected to be on the board until the time he gets back to his duty station. I think if more NCOs knew all the details that I know, they could be better prepared, and would understand that the board is a fair process. I have designed a class using my personal records as a template as well as the knowledge I gained from that CSM. I do my best to educate every NCO that I come in contact with.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made May 21 at 2015 11:49 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Thu, 21 May 2015 23:49:35 -0400

NO they are not. The only ones that know why a Soldier does not get promoted are the ones that did not promote him. These people read a few pages of a record and look at a photo.

My records were destroyed in a flood in Korea in 1998. When I asked if they had copies, I was told by some personnel weeney that I was supposed to keep my own records and why did I not. My answer was simple, I had all my copies in a file cabinet in my barracks room, Mr PAC Man said "Great", to which I replied that my barracks room was under the same 10 feet of water that S-1 had been under.

Further, I feel that DA keeps the records secret because they do not want to open the door to class action lawsuits from White male NCOs who are now and have been discriminated against for decades. Never has a promotion list been recalled for too few White Males. When a Command Sergeant Major, who is not white, suggests to the NCO's in his regiment, during NCODP, to look and see if there is any Native American or other minority group in his family because it will improve his chances with the DA centralized board, well Damn, there Zippy what does that tell you.
I think that the board should be REQUIRED to spell out exactly what an NCO is lacking in order to get promoted. These Senior Enlisted Leaders should be held to the same standard that Company and Battalion NCOs are held to...Counsel your Soldiers as to why, they specifically by name did not get promoted, and if you can not justify not promoting them, they get it.

Response by MGySgt James Forward made Apr 30 at 2017 8:59 PM

MGySgt James Forward — Sun, 30 Apr 2017 20:59:22 -0400

As far as the Marine Corps goes I would yes, the centralized boards are fair. We promote to SSgt (E-6) and above at the HQMC level. We don't give points for awards, PFTs or things that the other Services do. The Board is given a "Precept" outlining what is important for this promotion board to look at, how to rack and stack your assigned Marines who you will represent on the board. Your fitness reports are assigned a score, they are added up that is your score. What does the score do? If you are above a certain defined score you get blocked in; your record gets sat in the promote pile unless you have an issue. All records below a defined number get parked in the do not promote pile. All remaining records are briefed to the board and you get voted on by all members of the board. PME not completed: not promote pile, DUI: do not promote pile, Fail to qualify with your assigned weapon; do not promote pile. In the event that there are not enought qualifed Marines to fill say 15 slots and I only have 13 marines in the promote pile. They will look at the Below zone or eligibility zone and vote on a few more Marines. Successful completion of a tour as a Drill Instructor and on Recruiting Duty is a big plus. Things may have changed some in the last 17 years. But that is how it was back in day. Semper Fi.

Response by SFC Steven Harvey made May 1 at 2017 11:22 AM

SFC Steven Harvey — Mon, 01 May 2017 11:22:27 -0400

It depends on what it means to be "fair". I've seen SSGs with zero schools, zero leadership time or deployments, no college or certifications get promoted because they got DA Selected for recruiting and was immediately picked up.

Meanwhile I've seen SSGs that literally met every single milestone on their career map for SFCs (much less their SSG one) other than SJEPME II filling SFC roles for 36 months with quality ratings get passed over.

But that's not the norm, I had a PVT when I was a SGT(p) just make the SFC list over me because he took to heart things I told him those many years ago. He went to college, got certifications and took hard assignments.

The process works but the Generating assignments appear to me to be far more valuable than the hard number the NCOER supposed to provide.

I understand those are hard assignments, but being a descent recruiter/SGL/Drill doesn't make you a the example of "The Total Soldier Concept" if you have nothing else in your records.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2017 1:07 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 May 2017 13:07:22 -0400

There is too much bias that can happen the way the boards are set up now. The best way to do a centralized promotion would be to get rid of the DA photo, eliminate all the information that could quickly identify someone ie name, social security #, etc. All though someone could be identified by assignments. Doing this would eliminate things like not that NCO I served with him/her didn't like them. Or we already have too many women promoted in that MOS, or we already have too many white male NCOs in that mos. All that the board would need to consider is what is in the file. Assignments, awards, achievements, etc

Response by SFC David Xanten made May 5 at 2017 1:26 PM

SFC David Xanten — Fri, 05 May 2017 13:26:48 -0400

I think to make the boards really fair, the files should not have a name or photo, just a number. That way the only thing the Board Members have to evaluate is the record, Period.

Response by SFC Don Ward made May 5 at 2017 8:32 PM

SFC Don Ward — Fri, 05 May 2017 20:32:38 -0400

These boards are criminal. Where else could you issue an MOI, then in your Board Summary tell how you did everything to go against your own orders.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2018 12:07 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Aug 2018 00:07:50 -0400

Having been on a few DA promotion boards I would have to say that the process is totally fair. While a few of the professional Soldiers who have commented on this thread make some good points, I am saddened that they have not been briefed on board procedures. A NCOPD on board procedures by the CSM or by a guest SGM/CSM that has been a DA Board Member and the Board AAR Comments can help tremendously. Many times we find that if presented with this info and examples of what the top NCOs "looked like," many NCOs could understand why they were not promoted. Understanding the DA Board percentage of required promotions is the last piece of the equation. Please trust the system, it works and take a completely honest look in the mirror. Wishing you all the very best!

Response by PO2 Hauke Powers made Sep 14 at 2018 7:11 PM

PO2 Hauke Powers — Fri, 14 Sep 2018 19:11:17 -0400

I have never sat before a promotion board...all of my promotions were via automatic or meritorious promotion, I can see a board when it comes to senior-level NCO/ OFFICER situations...May God bless all of you who had to go through this....wow !!!!

Response by CSM Dallas Mills made Sep 14 at 2018 10:29 PM

CSM Dallas Mills — Fri, 14 Sep 2018 22:29:13 -0400

It may have it's faults but if you leave it up to the units the "Good Ole Boy" system prevails.

Response by SFC Rick Walton made Sep 16 at 2018 11:35 AM

SFC Rick Walton — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 11:35:40 -0400

If you stay in a semi small MOS long enough you know the names almost everyone getting promoted on these lists. I have, on numerous occasions found myself wondering how in the heck did such and such make E-7 or 8. Then I look at duty stations and assignments of said individuals. The ones I knew didn't deserve promotion had either been stationed at the school house or had high levels of exposure to Senior leaders within the MOS. As much as we like to say it's fair, it is not. Remove the picture, name, race and any other individual identifying information. You only need the SSN to promote. Overly simplistic I know but not impossible if you truly want a "fair" promotion system.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Sep 16 at 2018 11:57 AM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 11:57:36 -0400

Frankly when I was a SSG the only reason I even straightened my E7 packet out was after I met my new PSG. He was a re-classed Marine Hull Repairman of MOS 44Z. He had been a SP7 and been converted to SFC in 1978 then sent to Fort Knox to 'observe' the (then) 11D Scout training at the 1st AIT Training Bde.
He took me aside (I had been the acting PSG for about 8 months) the first week and explained all that stuff. Then he asked for my help. He knew he wasn't prepared to lead a Scout Platoon. He knew paperwork but had "never ever" (his words) been in leadership position. I and the other two Scout Section Leaders taught him about leadership, reconnaissance, etc, and more etc.
He was a great guy and I am glad we were able to get him up to speed. Anyway after a year of us teaching him his job the other SSGs and I sat down to get our (all in the same zone) E7 packets together. He returned the favor by guiding us through the process. All of us made (much commented upon at BN & BDE HQ) the E7 list.
Karma is what goes around comes around.
So I have mixed feelings about centralized promotion boards. On one hand he didn't even attend one (at least not a 'Leadership CPB". On the other hand without his help I'm not sure if any of his 'teachers' would have been selected, certainly not all three of us.
- I mean we were simply field soldiers and simply didn't give a sh-t about no badges.
That's my two cents, but I can't give you a Yes or No.

Response by CSM Jim Corrin made Sep 16 at 2018 4:46 PM

CSM Jim Corrin — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 16:46:56 -0400

I have sat on many boards and I have to say they are fair. An order of Merit list (OML) is developed by the board members. The boards I sat on did not allow discussions among board members. Each member develops his / her rating system to establish an OML and assigns points accordingly. The points are tallied by the recorder and highest score goes on top. Additionally, Officers are responsible for the collective piece of the training. An NCO is responsible for the individual training of the soldier. NCO's should insure that the soldiers under their leadership are trained in all matters, be it administrative, technical, physical or tactical. Mentoring for promotion is one of those areas. NCO's should be training their replacements. This is how leadership emerges.

Response by MSG Jim Martin made Sep 16 at 2018 7:03 PM

MSG Jim Martin — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 19:03:39 -0400

MSG James Martin (R) Having risen in rank after Vietnam and thru the 1980's, the promotion system changed many times, of course only to the rank of E-6. After that of course there was the centralized board at Fort Ben Harrison. The local boards did a good job selecting a soldier for advancement based on the needs of the installation. These boards did vary greatly, from simple conference room boards, to complex skill tests as was done at Fort Hood with 2/1 Cav. in the Motor Pool with all unit weapons and vehicles. Back to centralized boards, as explained to our advanced leadership course by a CSM who sat on the board, advancement was a simple set of rules. First: Did the soldier look good, physically fit, "soldierly". Second: Did the soldier show advancement in position in their field, attend all the required training, attend other special training. Third: What was on their last 5 evaluations. 90 to 120 seconds per record. He told us of soldiers who picture looked crappy, so that was quick and easy. Local promotions about E-6 ( Army at least) depended more on the overall needs of the army, so local boards just cold not meet that requirement. (Sample: Grave Registration, 1 CSM, 3 MSG, 7 SFC Army wide in the '80's) (Not my field, but had access to the numbers) So chance of promotion was very slow. But again, how would a local installation know this. So unless there is a very different method, centralized could be the only option.

Response by SSG Barry Olson made Sep 16 at 2018 9:26 PM

SSG Barry Olson — Sun, 16 Sep 2018 21:26:54 -0400

I for some reason don't understand the process of not being able to tell the NCO why they didn't get promoted, I think that the Centralized Board should of been able to do like a code of some sorts such as 1-NCOER's 2-Uniform 3-UCMJ, and so on giving that individual an idea of what they need to improve on or what to continue doing right. We did it for SSG and below on why or why not they were promoted and gave them a counseling if they weren't going to the board. Hey, you need to tighten up this or that. No DUI's, no spousal or child abuse, drugs, nothing. Not everyone is an athlete, and will never get a 300 on a PT test. They did their job, and I trained soldiers to become NCO's that was my job. I was hard but fair to my soldiers just like my past NCO's toward me. I think that the promotion Centralized Board should be unbiased, no photos, no race, religion, due to the fact that if that CSM knows him/her they might pick them up because of it. I took a photo every year and it didn't help at all. Knew NCO's that never sent one in and were selected. Why is that? If I was the selecting CSM I would of put you in the No Selection pile because you didn't follow directions. I took my photos on leave so I don't wanna here I couldn't do it. Excuse is zero meters.

Response by CSM Patrick Durr made Sep 17 at 2018 1:13 AM

CSM Patrick Durr — Mon, 17 Sep 2018 01:13:26 -0400

I sat on the Infantry/SF Panel in 2007. Once all 1200 were rank ordered, it was a fine line between those selected and those not selected. I did however find the overall proceeding very fair. Checks and balances throughout the process. I spent the next year educating many NCO's a company at a time on the process.

Response by CSM Patrick Durr made Sep 17 at 2018 2:09 AM

CSM Patrick Durr — Mon, 17 Sep 2018 02:09:18 -0400

As I read through all these responses, I can clearly see why some are satisfied with the process and some are not. I won't characterize anyone's service or commitment but what I will say is, generally, if you concentrate more on making yourself the best candidate for promotion and stop comparing your service to others promoted in the past, or speculating on conspiracy within the ranks, you'll likely see different results. There is always a clear reason why YOU didn't get promoted. It's rarely somebody else's fault. The board process is fair, it is filled with checks and balances...I understand the whole "Mason" thing, I lived through it at Benning. I sat on the board, 2007, SFC/MSG, INF-SF, I and my 6 other panel members were able to dispel all the rumors from the field on board folklore.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Oct 25 at 2020 9:57 PM

SFC Don Ward — Sun, 25 Oct 2020 21:57:15 -0400

Has a CSM tell me that the board system was ultra fair, but could be rigged. In their initial vote, they set the promotion point. Anyone's record reaching that point or above would be on the promotion list. Any record having a voting discrepancy of 3 or more points had to be revoted. So, max out your "favorite" and explain that night at supper that a certain record was coming back for a revote. Next day, that soldier's packet received all votes above the promotion point. Wunderbar! that soldier got promoted.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Oct 26 at 2020 12:31 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Mon, 26 Oct 2020 00:31:42 -0400

Over my 22 years in the USAF I’d say the officer promotion boards got it right more often than wrong. Yes I saw some fast burning below tHe zones fizzle. And some smart and hard working people were passed over. Overall I think the results served the Air Force well and treated most all Airmen fair. When I was passed over for Colonel I understood why and wasn’t too surprised.