Chaplains and non-combatant status

2015-03-02T18:02:08-05:00

AR 165-1 states that chaplains are not allowed to handle weapons in combat or in training. Does seeing a Chaplain handling a weapon cause you to lose respect or gain respect? What are your thoughts?

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2015 6:53 PM

2015-03-02T18:53:25-05:00

I think I like what the reg says about chaplains and weapons, CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member. I think as non-combatants they should leave the weapons to the combatants and do their thing, which should have nothing to do with weapons. It doesn't necessarily cause me to lose respect for them, but I think it does diminish or detract from their mission in life.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Mar 2 at 2015 6:55 PM

2015-03-02T18:55:23-05:00

Our former Chaplain was a Marine and is one of the best shots (civilian ranges) in the BN. If he had a weapon in hand to teach or assist I would have no lost respect for him. I would question if he was assisting in the killing aspect (as I would with MEDIVAC types), but not for assisting or teaching.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Mar 2 at 2015 6:58 PM

2015-03-02T18:58:12-05:00

I think they should know how to clear a weapon in case they are put into a situation that calls for that but as far as in combat I believe they need to leave the weapons to the combatant forces as we do not want to break any laws in the Geneva Convention.

On personal level if they own privately owned weapons good for them as it is their right as Americans to do as such.

Response by SSG John Erny made Mar 2 at 2015 6:58 PM

2015-03-02T18:58:31-05:00

They have every right to shoot on their own time, with their own weapon. I have know clergy who like to hunt and fish. Nothing wrong with that.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2015 7:11 PM

2015-03-02T19:11:41-05:00

I gain respect for the Chaplain. In today's world, we are no longer able to fight major conflicts on two fronts (thanks to downsizing). I believe every branch should take the USMC's philosophy that everyone is an infantryman first. Just my opinion.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2015 7:19 PM

2015-03-02T19:19:58-05:00

I think they should be able to have their weapons while down range. The reasoning behind this is our current foes. They don't abide to the geneva conventions and would take every opportunity to kill the chaplain. He should have sone way of defending himself if something unexpected happens.

Response by Cpl Bo Dronet made Mar 2 at 2015 8:12 PM

2015-03-02T20:12:42-05:00

I doesn't matter to me one way or the other they are in the military for a reason

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Mar 2 at 2015 8:42 PM

2015-03-02T20:42:04-05:00

I would have loved to return to Active Duty as a chaplain. One of my decorations is the Navy Pistol Marksman ribbon. I also know Navy chaplains who are marksmen/better on pistol and/or rifle.

Here's the thing - the restriction is based on Geneva Convention status, which is different for chaplains. That is why every chaplain has an RP/Chaplain Assistant with him. The RP/56D primary job is bodyguard to the Chaplain.

That being said, if it hits the fan, and it's a question of life or death, I would hope the chaplain picks up a weapon from a soldier who is down. In a case like that, already having done fam fire at least on that weapon would be a good thing, no?...

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2015 10:55 PM

2015-03-02T22:55:49-05:00

My Chaplain once (humorously) suggested that since the M500 was a "breaching tool" we should issue him one of those instead. I've personally never seen a Chaplain handle a weapon, even momentarily. While I think there's a level of respect that comes with a Chaplain sharing training and hardships with the troops, I agree that it would be inappropriate and frankly a waste of his/her time for a Chaplain to participate in weapons training. I did see the Chaplains from RTB practicing MACP and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu at Ft. Benning a few times. I'll admit I was impressed with their level of skill.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 1:40 AM

2015-03-03T01:40:08-05:00

Personally, the whole Chaplain and weapon thing always confused me. I understand the whole non-combatant thing and that the Chaplain is a religious/spiritual presence to support the unit. However, I never agreed with the Chaplain being unarmed nor do I agree with the Chaplain Assistant as a bodyguard. The Chaplain Assistant is exactly that, an assistant (and in my experience usually one of the worst Soldiers in the unit, if not supervised) not a trained personal security element.

There are thousands of very religious Infantryman who believe in the Ten Commandments but, they kill enemy combatants all the time. Now, they volunteered for that and how that turns out for them is not up to me.

Chaplains should never put themselves and/or the unit should never put the Chaplain in a situation that becomes a kinetic engagement but, there are some dedicated Chaplains out there that want to be where the Soldiers are. To me they are a high value target to the enemy we are currently fighting. I always brought the Chaplain with me and my PSD or ensured he was escorted by at least an Infantry squad.

After all that, I believe the Chaplain should be allowed to carry a sidearm if they so desire to do so.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Mar 3 at 2015 6:41 AM

2015-03-03T06:41:19-05:00

During OIF, I would have wanted to have our unit's Chaplain carrying a weapon. I can't recall whether he ever did, actually. He was a really good person overall.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Mar 3 at 2015 7:20 AM

2015-03-03T07:20:16-05:00

If you are out on a mission -- especially if you are dismounted -- you need to be able to engage the enemy, in my opinion. I get it...if the Chaplain is engaging the enemy, then something big must be going on enemy-wise, but having an unarmed service member dismounted with you could create some tactical liabilities.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 3 at 2015 7:26 AM

2015-03-03T07:26:03-05:00

My pastor growing up had conceal carry, was an NRA instructor and had a FFL. So no, I have no issues with a Chaplain handling a weapon outside of official duties.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 3 at 2015 7:35 AM

2015-03-03T07:35:59-05:00

The reg is the reg.

Honestly though, the weapon thing is just transparent. We never notice they aren't handling a weapon. If they were handling a weapon, we would never notice, because everyone else is handling a weapon.

My Boot Camp chaplain was a former Marine (keep in mind Marine Chaplains are actually USN Chaplain Corps).

There's a retired chaplain out here at Quantico (Town, not Base) who is a auxiliary PD Officer, and carries a sidearm.

Basically, the sidearm issue is only an issue if we make it one.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 7:50 AM

2015-03-03T07:50:19-05:00

I can't help but think of Chaplain Steve Hommel in Operation Iraqi Freedom during the invasion at the Battle of Moe, Larry and Curly.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/891923/posts

Later, much later, Lt Col Stephen Twitty, the commander of the 3rd Battalion 15th Infantry, would look at the map of Baghdad. "Objectives Curly, Larry and Moe - named 'em after the Three Stooges. Those three intersections will go down in history. They were three hellacious battles."

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 7:52 AM

2015-03-03T07:52:42-05:00

I have talked with several (Army) Chaplains about this.
The question comes, do you pick up the weapon and defend yourself and your Soldiers, or do you continue to serve them as one of faith without picking up that weapon? Each decision is extremely courageous to me!

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Mar 3 at 2015 9:35 AM

2015-03-03T09:35:56-05:00

When I was in Iraq, the chapel was hit and the Chaplain's office was completely destroyed by rocket fire. The only ones that seem to respect the Chaplain's non-combatant status is the U.S.
That being said, if anyone should have faith or belief in their convictions that'll be protected or a higher power's plan will prevail , it's a Chaplain.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 3 at 2015 10:24 AM

2015-03-03T10:24:32-05:00

CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member Here is a great commentary on the subject.

http://senseofevents.blogspot.com/2003/04/chaplains-bearing-arms-in-combat-is-it.html

Sense of Events: Chaplains bearing arms in combat - is it ever permissible?

News and commentary concentrating on foreign policy, military affairs and religious matters. And other things that come to mind.Click for Feedburner site or Smartphone Site

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Mar 3 at 2015 5:47 PM

2015-03-03T17:47:56-05:00

I think in the end, it is up to the Chaplain to decide if his life and the life of those around him are worth following the reg. Personally, I know a lot of Chaplains who own personal weapons and are very proficient with them. If he were to decide that protecting his flock with a weapon is the called for, I'd welcome it. Conversely, knowing their non-combatant status, I also wouldn't think less of them if they followed the reg and did non-combatant duties.

Response by TSgt Carl Allen made Mar 3 at 2015 7:48 PM

2015-03-03T19:48:58-05:00

As a minister, there is a fine line here. The chaplain has a right to defend himself, but is not called to be a combatant. I have a high respect for those chaplains that are not armed and trust in God to watch over them in combat areas and at home for that matter.

Response by 1SG Rudolph Watt made Jun 18 at 2015 10:50 AM

2015-06-18T10:50:23-04:00

I for one, if under attack I would want every one out there with me to be helping to fend off attacks whether it be paster, doctor, cook, ect ect. I remember the advice our drill gave us, when we were not so political correct ( and our enemy is not) we train our special operations soldiers to jump in and fight from the rear forward, and so does our enemy so our support and remf are probably going to be fighting more special trained soldiers than the front line would be. So if he or she are in a uniform they need to carry a weapon and be perficent with it

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Dec 21 at 2016 10:59 AM

2016-12-21T10:59:12-05:00

Chaplains are protected under the Geneva Conventions for warfare. They have to carry a special id card that prevents them from being taken prisoner of war, and allows them access to POW's without being detained. Now with all of that being said, I would hope that Chaplains and doctors that if being overrun and are facing death, will pick up a weapon, aim true and shoot steady, and defend their life and those around them. But by doing that they forfeit their Geneva convention status as a noncombatant. As a matter of fact there are regulations that prohibit their offices from being collocated with military leadership and operations so as to not be lumped in as combatants. If they are defending their life, I would absolutely lose no respect for them.

Response by CH (1LT) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2017 11:06 AM

2017-04-21T11:06:17-04:00

As I am no longer in service I suppose I could answer this one honestly. There where times in the national guard (after leaving active service as a 13B) where I knew more about the crew served weapons we where training on than anyone else in the unit simply because I had carried said weapon in combat years before. I know I once arrived at a .50 range with a unit that hadn't brought a subject matter expert and no one else knew how to assemble the .50. I didn't touch it physically, but I certainly directed the setting up of the weapon. Personally, I never met a soldier who thought it was bad that I knew that much about weapons. They always thought it was cool. They frequently stated their opinion that the non-combatant status of chaplains was stupid. My personal opinion which I can now share since I am no longer in service is that we have been fighting a war in which chaplains are not respected by enemy combatants, and if anything they would be a more desirable target; thus, we should allow chaplains to be armed if they feel like they need to be and if they get permission from their endorsing agency. We arm medics. We train medics on crew served weapons despite not being supposed to do so. The wording of the Geneva convention states that chaplains may appear as combatants if they hold weapons; and it's not as much a prohibition as it is a warning. If someone sees you with a gun they may think you are a combatant and shoot you. Other Western nations have chaplains who are armed; chaplain's in the Danish Home Guard for example are non combatants who are also armed while deployed.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2022 1:19 PM

2022-09-27T13:19:05-04:00

I wouldn't say lose or gain respect...it would just be odd.