Combat Vets vs Fobbits vs Non-Deployers

2015-02-09T20:57:06-05:00

I wanted to address the stratification of service that exists within the military. There isn't much of that in the Air Force due to the very limited number of actual "Combat" AFSCs. I mean, I feel I did an important job in Iraq by being the COR of a contract that provided employment to LNs doing manual labor around JB Balad. Every Iraqi we gave a paycheck to was one less that was collecting a paycheck for picking up a gun and shooting at coalition forces. However, I am not a combat veteran. The mortars that came down around us on a daily basis doesn't qualify as "combat". Although I feel I earned my hostile fire pay, I still don't feel like I should get the same regards and benefits as combat vets. I get the good natured ribbing that goes down the line from grunts to "fobbits" (of which I proudly consider myself) to those who never deployed. I've never seen that kind of exchange as hostile... it's just part of the military pecking order.

How do you all feel about that? I know they don't have unnecessary jobs and that every job in the military is important... But how do you combat vets really view fobbits and non-deployers? How about inter-service? Is anyone genuinely hostile towards those of different branches?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2015 9:34 PM

2015-02-09T21:34:19-05:00

I generally fall into the fobbit category with you, though there has been some time outside the wire. I worked my tail off every time I was deployed. I earned my team's respect and they earned mine. Our PJ and Controllers did some amazing stuff and while their experiences inevitably set them apart, they were professionals who knew that their success was in large part because of the rest of the team's hard work. Maybe I was lucky to work with folks that had a true professional's mindset but I never felt that anyone looked down on me for doing my job.

Anyone who does look down on others are simply insecure in my book and feel a need to be "elite" in some way. In my experience, those who were truly elite ended up being the most humble. Largely because they KNEW they had nothing to prove to anyone. Just my two cents.

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Feb 9 at 2015 9:40 PM

2015-02-09T21:40:59-05:00

I would say....admit to what you are...don't Brian Williams your lot in life...
In other words, I always found it comical when we landed in Kuwait and they told me I was now in a combat zone...
I try not to judge...fr the simple fact that I can not help that the enemy did not attack us more often or more directly.
Me not having a purple heart...the enemy gets some of the blame for that...

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2015 6:54 AM

2015-02-10T06:54:39-05:00

I am very proud of anyone who has served their country whether in combat operations, supporting combat operations, or peace time operations.

I get very, how should I say, suspicious of an Infantryman who has been serving pre 9/11 to present that has never deployed, unless physically incapable of doing so (should be re-classed). Not really sure how that is possible without having an active part in the maneuvering.

I do not make fun of "fobbits" because in one way or another they are extremely important to the Soldiers going outside the wire. Besides everyone is basically Infantry anyway, right?

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 10 at 2015 7:56 AM

2015-02-10T07:56:41-05:00

Time and time again the answer is we are all veterans regardless of how got that designation.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2015 8:53 AM

2015-02-10T08:53:10-05:00

I joined during the "Cold War." I started as a grunt, took orders, loaded in and out of amtraks. Slept in the back full of diesel fumes with my helmet bouncing off my m16, held up on either side by my buddies. Later, I moved into intel, worked Central American counter-insurgency and counter-narcotics ops from a desk in Lejeune and the Pentagon. Later still, from a desk in Okinawa, provided crisis intel support to the CG III MEF. I took orders. I gave orders. All at the will of the Commandant of the Marine Corps. Did I ever feel like a REMF or the "non combat vet." Nope. Maybe because I started out as a grunt. Maybe because I didn't give a hoot what others thought. I signed, I delivered.

ALL OF YOU HAVE DONE THE SAME! Semper Fi and OOH RAH! Let's get over this conversation. We have other enemies to fight, not amongst ourselves.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2015 8:59 AM

2015-02-10T08:59:45-05:00

There are a few that are generally hostile because of inter-service rivalries and the "pecking order"....they are VERY few, and most of them I suspect have an undiagnosed personality disorder, because these are usually the ones that believe that they are God's gift to the military.

Ultimately, this is a "sibling rivalry". Marines talk about the Army, Army talks about the Air Force and Marines, and everyone makes fun of the Coast Guard. Ditto for the combat/non-combat vets. I am not only a non-combat vet, but haven't deployed overseas. Several people have helped me come to grips with that (for a while I was very embarrassed by it), and I have learned to be very proud of the things I've done and recognize that I am able to fight for people here so that they can focus on the time with their family and their medical here at home....reducing stresses and various other aspects to make a positive impact in Soldiers lives.

How do I know that this is just sibling rivalry? A retired Navy Corpsman buddy of mine and I were going back and forth in the interservice rivalry, where he'd give me crap about being Army, so when he left his computer unlocked I'd change his computer to the Army logo or pictures of "hunky sailors". It wasn't until a civilian joined in the mix, and started talking trash about the Navy that we BOTH jumped in, because this gal felt that her BROTHER being in the Air Force entitled her to this inter-service ribbing.

Additionally, I have a few veteran friends that call me Doc because I've done my best to help with their issues. It doesn't matter to them that I'm not a combat vet. It matters most to them that I care about them and I'm willing to go to the ends of the Earth to fight for ANY Soldier, Sailor, Airmen, Marine, or even Coast Guard that needs the help. Why? We are a family. There may be an older brother, a little sister, even the cousin that annoys the crap out of you. However, when you are serving in this nation's military, you are worthy of that respect. I've never had someone disrespect me because of being a slick-sleeve....just for some they are a bit more guarded about trusting me with some of their struggles.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by SPC Neil Hood made Feb 10 at 2015 9:23 AM

2015-02-10T09:23:40-05:00

I'm just disappointed I never deployed to Djibouti!

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2015 9:53 AM

2015-02-10T09:53:52-05:00

I suggest my brothers and sisters read this article from a Vietnam Vet: http://www.vietvet.org/remfday.htm

The Day of the REMF

Response by Cpl Brett Wagner made Feb 10 at 2015 10:37 AM

2015-02-10T10:37:59-05:00

Ssgt Thomas LaRaia - I agree we all play an important role in the over all military & its success. If a Grunt can't get his bullets & beans he won't be able to compete his mission. C130 gunships (when I was in not sure what they are now) are always welcome to the fight. :-)
I'm a Cold War veteran but I was willing to go at anytime. Hell if they would take old out of shape guys I would go now if my country needed me. I think the problem is with the fobbit (garrison trooper) who walks around pretending to be something he or she is not. Like Brian Williams or Hilary Clinton.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Feb 10 at 2015 12:18 PM

2015-02-10T12:18:29-05:00

We are already such a small minority of the population. I can't afford to add to the problem. I look for fellow veterans. (For example...) When we go to a famiily reunion we are all family. We all get to wear the "cheesey t-shirt", not just the 1st cousins, or uncles, etc.

Response by SGT Monika Sloan made Feb 10 at 2015 12:21 PM

2015-02-10T12:21:52-05:00

I think at the end of the day, so long as a person serves honorably at whatever assignment they are on, that is all that matters. My husband told me that some of his soldiers were really bummed out about not having a combat tour, since they went to Kuwait. He sat them down and reminded them that there was no shame in serving where they were told to go. He also reminded them that if they had been slotted to go to Afghanistan, they would have carried out their mission there just like they did in Kuwait. We are both glad to have served in Iraq. It was an eye opening and life changing experience. But, there should not be snobbery from someone because they have deployed to a hazard zone and they feel that they are better than someone else who hasn't. All of our careers are unique. People who dodge combat tours are a whole other topic. Bottom line: be proud of your service!

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Feb 10 at 2015 12:41 PM

2015-02-10T12:41:35-05:00

I usually take the ribbing I get from my grunt brothers extremely light heartedly, unless I pick up that they mean they really do think I'm a POS just because I had to be a POG (if you must know the why behind that please PM me, I'll be more than happy to share). The only people I ever thought I'll of were those that had a lot more time in than me that hadn't done any B-billets and still hadn't deployed. In other words a 15 year Gunnery Sergeant without any b-billets or deployments raises A LOT of questions, like how hard did they try to avoid deployment. Now that the action has died down that will become less of a suspicion and more of a "sucks for you". But while I was in there were plenty of opportunities for anyone able bodied enough to deploy, no excuses.

Response by Cpl Matthew Wall made Feb 10 at 2015 12:55 PM

2015-02-10T12:55:33-05:00

We made fun of fobbits when I was in Iraq, but we had respect for the ones that wanted to go outside of the wire with us. The ones that wanted to stay and never leave those were the ones we had a problem with. If you didn't want to leave the wire you shouldn't have joined the Marines. Now with that being said, posers were the worst. Ones who acted like they had been there and done that, but in reality barely left their cot. Also, rotation was a pain as well when you have fresh barracks boots coming into country to replace you and they are trying to act like they are in the barracks when you are in the middle of Iraq. Nothing would piss us off more.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Feb 10 at 2015 1:33 PM

2015-02-10T13:33:49-05:00

As a career Navy guy, I deployed on six ships. In the Navy deployments are a regular thing, war and peace. I didn't see any combat but it was luck of the draw. I detached USS CALIFORNIA CGN 36 Dec 86. Jan 87 she deployed to Praying Mantis. I was Weps on CAPODANNO FF 1093 during Desert Storm. Where was I? In a dry-dock for regularly scheduled repairs.

So if the luck had been against me, I would have seen combat, but the luck was with me. I am grateful every day that I don't have any kills on my conscience. I am very aware that the Sixth Commandment says "Do not MURDER" (not do not KILL), but still human life is human life. As the Midrash (a rabbinic exposition on the Bible) says, when Egypt was drowning in the sea and the Angels cheered, God said, "Why are you cheering - those are my children too."

When I started in the Navy I didn't plan to become a rabbi, but when I retired, that was my goal, so I'm grateful that my career worked out the way it did.

Now, if only I weren't on total disability from those shipboard neck injuries...

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Feb 10 at 2015 2:54 PM

2015-02-10T14:54:57-05:00

Look at us! We SM always trying to 'one up' each others experiences. The services are filled with type A personalities, and that makes us pretty competitive. After I was injured, I refused to take part in Soldier of the Quarter boards because it was not possible for me to score higher than 250 points which meant I didn't get points for that event or I wasn't able to take part in the road march event. That meant that it was highly improbable that I would win...why would I compete in an event that I can't win?
We are taught to compete from the first day of basic and I am not sure why anyone is surprised when either people look at others who haven't deployed equally or when a SM is really bothered because he/she hasn't deployed. Truth of the matter, we are ALL Veterans, but some organizations or services are only available to those who are 'combat Vets' (i.e., VFW vs. American Legion).
Personally, I don't feel like I am 'special' just because I have deployed. We are all part of a very small population and we should be proud of that and take care of our brothers and sisters, regardless of deployments, duties and etc.

Response by SP5 Michael Rathbun made Feb 10 at 2015 6:44 PM

2015-02-10T18:44:58-05:00

One question to ask, when sizing up your military specialty, skill, assignments, might be this:

"If nobody was doing this job, who would die?"

Amazing how far that can take you.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2015 7:58 PM

2015-02-10T19:58:57-05:00

You can't help where you're ordered. You just go. Anyone who served should be proud. If a person pulled strings to get from going, then they should be ashamed.

Response by SSG Daniel Miller made Feb 11 at 2015 8:53 AM

2015-02-11T08:53:41-05:00

Much like the interservice insults, most of the prodding of non-combat or "slick sleeve" servicemembers is just some brotherly love. However, when a fobbit tries to downplay the stress or effects of combat on individuals, then it becomes hostile (for me, and most people I know who have lost someone close to us in combat). It's all fun and games until someone ignorantly disrespect the sacrifices of those who were pounding ground.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2015 8:54 AM

2015-02-11T08:54:07-05:00

As it stands now I feel that everyone has a place and a purpose. Some Soldiers shouldn't be Soldiers and mess it up for others. In country I hated the "Fobbits" due to the fact they would steal our stories and post them on fb as if they went with us AND coming back from 16-24 hour operations and being yelled at for not having a pt belt or being to dirty to eat even though we only had a hour or two to refit to go back out...

However, the 99% of those who stayed on the FOB did the right thing and allowed me to get the support I needed. They also hooked us up with cases and cases of RIP-Its so cheers to them and those like them.

A final point is, those that hid from deployments should be booted. Several of my peers volunteered for non-deployable tours of duty when we were getting activated. Those who tried to volunteer and were denied probably have a guilt I personally can not imagine. I think this is another reason why suicides are up. Those that wanted to go, that needed to go, and didn't - feel ashamed. They shouldn't. You had our backs when we were over there, and many Soldier's needed that support you gave.

It should just be Soldiers vs Ish-Bags because non-combat/fobbits aren't a bad thing at all.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2015 11:37 AM

2015-02-11T11:37:54-05:00

When I was a Specialist (E4) my unit was assigned to a peacekeeping operation in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula; a mission completely anathema to the coordinated high-operational tempo, violence of action based culture of an Infantry unit, let alone a well-respected one that had already been activated 4 times in a 10 year period following 9/11/2001 including two year long tours to Iraq.

I and several of my closest buddies had missed out on the Iraq tours by a matter of weeks , we had arrived at our company just past the deadline to be sent over to meet our unit already in country, and we had to be ready for the next one. Therefore, when we got orders to the Sinai, despite the fact that we would spend our entire tour in the midst of the Egyptian Revolution, we were bummed to say the least.

It took my PSG, a man very well-respected throughout our platoon, with multiple combat tours to take us aside and tell us that combat patches, CIBs and campaign medals were worthless without the soldier bearing them making them important. In other words, the fact that we were not on a combat mission was irrelevant if we performed as trained and as required.

That didn't affect me much then, but looking back on it now as an E6 I can honestly say he was right. We despised our lot in life, being assigned to garrison duty in a relatively peaceful country when it contradicted everything we had ever trained for, but at the end of the day we sucked it up and performed the mission to the best of our ability and that's all that mattered then, and its all that matters now. We brought everyone home, and ensured that Israel and Egypt continued to abide by the Accords they had signed in 1979. The rest is irrelevant.

Response by MSG Scott McBride made Feb 11 at 2015 12:17 PM

2015-02-11T12:17:11-05:00

Thomas, it does not matter what your MOS or AFSC consists of...you served. That means more to me and the public than your job. Ok, so you were a COR, that is only an additional duty in your normal capacity, thousands of Servicemembers are and were CORs. You were in Iraq, well that makes you a combat vet regardless if you put rounds down range. Don't allow yourself to get pulled into the rhetoric of "I was a fobbit" or " POG" so what, you were there, you did your part and because of that you made someone's world a much better place. Army Strong!

Response by SFC Richard M. made Feb 12 at 2015 12:21 PM

2015-02-12T12:21:22-05:00

I deployed twice, once to Afghanistan and once to Iraq. During the Iraq tour I was a fobbit, but during the Afghanistan tour, I was out on patrols. Both tours of duty were after 2009, so I missed the first half of the war. As a result, I have experienced all three of your situations. I felt guilty having not deployed even though it wasn't by choice. Then I was a fobbit which, like you, I felt counted, but it "wasn't the same." Then I went to Afghanistan and went out on patrols.

Having said all of that, be proud of what you've done. Don't worry about the opinions of others and don't seek the opinions of those who can't relate to what you've done or been through. They wouldn't understand anymore than you would understand their point of view. You did what you needed to do when you were called to do it. That in itself is honorable and worthy of respect.

Response by SSgt Thomas L. made Feb 12 at 2015 8:52 PM

2015-02-12T20:52:15-05:00

I'm sorry I haven't been able to reply to everyone's responses. In my immediate post-service mode, I am busy looking for work and helping my wife take care of our 4 kids. You have all posted thought-provoking replies which tell me without a doubt that we are all indeed brothers and sisters, no matter what our individual service experience may have been. RP is an awesome place. I'm glad it's here to bring us all together.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 9:12 AM

2015-02-13T09:12:50-05:00

You have earned the right to be a called a Combat Vet. I have been deployed twice in combat while in the Air force as a mechanic And twice as an Infantry Soldier with the Louisiana National Guard. I understand the arguments that you are having from both sides of the fence. The Infantry is rewarded with the Combat Infantry Badge. Yes they do patrol the streets and do most of the door kicking. In today's non linear combat the support is also sometimes under indirect and even direct fire. You have risked your life for this country and let NO ONE ever tell you any different.

Infantry soldiers have a different mind set because of the job required of them. They are mostly made up of that "type A personality" if they don't have that they usually cross train or ETS and go to college. They have to be mentally tough and think they are better than everyone else, due to the fact you cant be the first one to enter a bldg. when clearing it and not think you are the baddest man on the planet. if you have doubts you will hesitate and that will get you killed. This mind set once established is very hard to turn off unless you are bi-polar.

Back to the original discussion you have earned your combat vet status and be proud of that.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 1:50 PM

2015-02-13T13:50:29-05:00

One other thought for you guys. Sgt Adam Jennings reminded me of something when he said "The only people I ever thought were those that had a lot more time in than me that hadn't done any B-billets and still hadn't deployed."

What comes to mind was that during Desert Storm there were quite a few people (primarily seniors) who figured out how to be able to get on a hop, land in the combat zone, spend a little time, and get the CAR.

Long story short, everyone notices posers. Even REMFs. LOL

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 2:15 PM

2015-02-13T14:15:59-05:00

This is something that I question also. It is not really a question one really wants to ask. It is not polite to question one's service. Now do I think we all serve the same. Yes and no. Is anyone more important than the other. Not really. We all do our part. We all have our place in the fight. But what can be difficult is the lack of value in that place. The infantry pay a heave price as they carry out the fight on the front lines. Now it is seen to be very honorable. With that being said if you were a heavy wheeled vehicle mechanic you also have a role. What happens is that if one questions if your role is as important as that infantryman you may view your value less. When it comes to killing the bad guys that mechanic may not be the trigger puller or the pipe hitter but that is not what you joined for. The Army needs more than trigger pullers. If you wanted to be a mechanic you shouldn't think you are any less. It is not about who is more important. If you wanted to pull triggers maybe infantry would have been a better decision. But if you hold yourself to their standard then you will always fall short.

Being infantry I have an important role but if you ask me the cooks at the base have a more important role.

Now, being a combat veteran should imply that you deployed to a combat zone. Once again we need to evaluate if you mean infantryman when you say combat soldier. If you try to measure yourself against the infantry you will fall short. But then if I measure myself against that cook I will be eating a lot of cold cereal and burnt hot dogs. But then that is not what I should be measured by.

These things are burdens we place upon ourselves. We are the only ones that can put this on ourselves. I say be proud of what you do. No matter what you do you should be proud of it.

Response by PO2 Michael Ryals made Feb 13 at 2015 4:20 PM

2015-02-13T16:20:45-05:00

IMHO. The combat arms guys could not do our job with out everyone else doing theirs. We can't fight with out bullets, beans or bandaids. But that being said, I don't like hearing a fobbit complain about their deployment. Greenbeans being out of carmel and being tired of Burger King is not a hardship. I was jealous that you could get that stuff. I was happy if my dip didn't have sand in it. We make fun of Pogs because we want what they have but we also want combat.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 4:05 PM

2015-02-19T16:05:05-05:00

Meh. Veteran is veteran is veteran. It's not like people get to dictate when they will or will not see combat.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 4:25 PM

2015-02-19T16:25:12-05:00

What's a Combat AFSC? I'm a Public Affairs Officer, total staff weannie right?

I was the IO and deputy S3 on a PRT. We lived on a French FOB and I was an MC and TC on numerous mounted and dismounted combat patrols. I was also the S3 when the lead S3 was home for R and R so I planned, got approved, battle tracked, and did post mission analysis of dozens of missions. I'm only one of many PAs who has done the exact same thing.

Lot's of guys and gals in "non-combat" jobs have seen plenty of combat. It doesn't make them infantry with all the right and privileges they have (and crap they have to deal with), but I'd say that line is as blurry after the last 12 years as it's ever been.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Feb 19 at 2015 8:11 PM

2015-02-19T20:11:07-05:00

That is a great comment and insight. First, I believe you have to differentiate between the terms, veteran, combat veteran, and then perhaps someone who has actually engaged in close combat with the enemy... which is where this gets murky, and where as you well know many many people deploy, but many don't ever do anything hard or dangerous; despite the many war stories they tell. What I hate are made up stories or the badge/award hunters. Those who actually have to engage in close combat generally don't brag about it...

As you stated, All branches of the Armed Forces matter, as do all specialties in each branch. We are all part of the Joint Team, and although sometimes we don't get the spot light, as combat supporters, we do what we do, because we know if matters, and because if we fail, the mission will fail. I have deployed with all branches of the joint team, and they all are needed. Sure, we are brag about our parts, but that is about pride.

You are a veteran, and combat veteran. Don't confuse that with you did not earn a combat action ribbon, combat action badge, combat infantryman's badge etc.

As for the hostility, I think it is more good natured ribbing, then genuine disdain.

I am from a combat support branch in the Army, now considered Maneuver Fires and Effects, but I am not Infantry. But, with branches like MP and Engineers, we deploy at a higher rate than our combat arms brothers, because we are in high demand and low density, and we fight right along side of them.

Good comment and question.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 8:31 PM

2015-02-19T20:31:16-05:00

3 "fobbits" got shot the day I came into theater. Afghan military started shooting from the tower. By day 2 I had a rocket go over my head. Did my quickest run time ever after a rocket landed near me in the morning. There's no such thing as a "fobbit" anymore.

Response by Lt Col Terry Smith made Feb 19 at 2015 8:49 PM

2015-02-19T20:49:29-05:00

It was my honor to deploy to Iraq. I volunteered for Gulf War Round 1, but not my time and place I guess for that one. My whole career I felt it was important, but for me and me alone. I don't look down on anyone who didn't deploy, unless they actively went out of their way to avoid it…not cool in my book. I still am coming to grips that my suck wasn't as bad as the guy, or lady next to me, but that trail never will end. For example, I was in Iraq, but Balad was not a bad deal; I GOT to travel all of northern Iraq and some of the western part; some of the FOB were crappy, but the teams that traveled up to meet me came from POS little outposts, so for them it was usually a bit nicer; we got mortared a lot wherever I traveled, but God bless their Iraqi little hearts they couldn't hit $h1t most of the time (but if they ever did it….); my job was not to walk the streets and never had to engage in close combat when other people did; many of them didn't get hit when their buddy took one through the shoulder; another buddy lost a leg, an arm, and an eye when his buddy died in an IED explosion. Who's better off, who's worse off? It depends on your perspective I guess. What about those with PTSD? What about the wives/husbands, girlfriends/boyfriends, moms/dads that could only watch the evening news and worry about us? It doesn't end. I'm proud of everyone I worked with, stateside and deployed; whether in nice locations or really $h1tty ones; no matter their rank, no matter their service (I have supported or been supported by all including the USCG), no matter their nation if they were an allied or coalition partner. Do your job to the best of your ability and I'm happy. Sorry for the long post, but God Bless you all.

Response by SGT Tyler G. made Feb 19 at 2015 11:01 PM

2015-02-19T23:01:18-05:00

We all have different jobs. Each of those jobs serves a function. We are each like a cog in a clock, if you take one out, the clock won't work. We also go where the military tells us (even if you volunteer for deployment, depending on your job they may deny it). No one should be derided for how they served. They stood up and took the oath, and deserve respect for that alone.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2015 10:06 AM

2015-08-20T10:06:06-04:00

I'm not a "Grunt"...neither am I an Infantryman, Marine, SEAL, EOD, or Airborne, Ranger, "Regiment", or any flavor or "Operator". I was a Sailor...a "Squid"...call it what you will. A combination of choice, orders and fate occasionally put me in harm's way, and I consider myself to have "seen the elephant"...But I'm not and never will share the experiences of those whose training routinely places them at the "tip of the spear". I think THAT is the dividing line; any service member may find themselves trading rounds with the enemy or under direct fire...but some folks spend a lot more time and effort preparing for that moment, and get paid to seek it out. We are all equally willing, and justifiably honored...but we have different experiences. If I tell a Marine who fought in Iraq that I "know where he's coming from", I'd expect to be "called out" for my impertinence...as I would likely challenge anyone who's not deployed on a "Gator" for nine months without seeing land , or twelve months on the ground as an IA who claims "all Sailors have it easy" ;)

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 20 at 2015 10:58 AM

2015-08-20T10:58:13-04:00

It really makes me angry when veterans criticize other veterans. Your war was not as bad as ours, you did not see combat, and you have never entered a theater of war. Sometimes I talk to Vietnam or Modern Era Vets and I asked them if they saw combat or went to war. There reply is a no with a lot of shame associated to it, probably because other vets have put him down. I tell them I am glad they did not go to war, you should feel lucky. I am still trying to comprehend why vets demean other vets.

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Sep 14 at 2015 5:38 PM

2015-09-14T17:38:51-04:00

We are BROTHERS and SISTERS. As a combat vet I was appreciative of all support roles from ammo humpers to mess hall cooks. I do wish I had been issued a pair of clean, dry socks for every 10 gooks I killed. I remember calling in mortar fire on my own position and crawling, sliding backwards in the mud until my fatigue blouse was full of mud and pulled loose of my web belt... :-)

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 14 at 2015 7:42 PM

2015-09-14T19:42:01-04:00

I was combat arms twice but never during the war. I am not going to blame myself for not seeing combat. The game of chance is very pronounced in the military.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Sep 14 at 2015 7:45 PM

2015-09-14T19:45:24-04:00

I don't spend anytime thinking about this; you either served or you did not.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2015 10:06 PM

2015-09-14T22:06:39-04:00

How did that old saying go? For every combat soldier there are 10 support soldiers who enable him to do his job?

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2015 11:18 PM

2015-09-14T23:18:03-04:00

Sailors get the shortest end of the stick in my opinion.

"Did you ever deploy?"
"Yes I did."
"Where to?"
"Pacific, Gulf of Aden, Strait of Hormuz, etc."
"So just the ocean, not Afghan or Iraq?"
"Just the ocean."
"Oh"

So what are we?

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Sep 15 at 2015 1:09 AM

2015-09-15T01:09:08-04:00

Everyone has a purpose, inside or outside the wire.

Response by SGT Kevin Smith made Oct 3 at 2015 1:17 PM

2015-10-03T13:17:25-04:00

We all raised our right hand.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Oct 3 at 2015 1:20 PM

2015-10-03T13:20:57-04:00

A combat veteran is someone who deployed to a combat zone and earned hazardous duty pay. So if you deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., you are a combat veteran. The majority of people who deployed were like you. I was the same. I had to volunteer for three of my overseas tours and never was shot at or attacked by an IED. I tried to get off base as much as my duties allowed me to. I do have a special place in my heart for the combat Infantrymen and one regret I have is that I never earned a CIB. But as a LTC, my duties required me to spend most of my time on base. You are a combat veteran and should be proud to be one. Most Americans do not understand what we have done or do. What frustrated me more than anything though was seeing senior officers in the USAR get promoted without a deployment. I have no time for them when I volunteered 3 times at the expense of my career.

Response by SPC Joseph Huckaby made Oct 3 at 2015 1:26 PM

2015-10-03T13:26:12-04:00

The only things that truly bothers me is when those who haven't seen combat or haven't even deployed talk themselves up like they have, especially around civilians. I can almost always tell a true "war story" from a fake one, even if the fake one is being told by an actual veteran. Or when someone doges deployments. You joined the Military, regardless of the branch you are expected to do your job and lay down your life if you need to. However, if someone just misses deployments that is another story. I deployed as a 12B under a SGM who had never been to a combat zone before. As far as I know, he never tried to get out of deploying, it just never happened to him because of circumstance. but then that would lead to a debate on whether he should even have been promoted to that rank especially in a combat-centered MOS, that would derail the conversation. So I guess it really all just depends on circumstance for me. As a general rule, I don't like to think that I am better than anyone because I have deployed, been blown up, shot at, etc. but sometimes when I talk to other service members, the way the present themselves and act when talking about the fact that they have never did anything like I did can cause me too feel anger and resentment, and yes I am better than those people.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Oct 3 at 2015 1:27 PM

2015-10-03T13:27:27-04:00

wtf is a fobbit? is that like a pog?

Response by SFC Jason Hodge made Oct 3 at 2015 1:34 PM

2015-10-03T13:34:00-04:00

A lot of joking around happens, thats just the nature of the military, i have done some of the joking. In reality and in the grand scheme, everyone plays an important role to the overall mission success and with everyone, regardless of their role, doing their job, the different pieces of the pie dont function.

Response by SSgt Christopher Brose made Oct 3 at 2015 2:13 PM

2015-10-03T14:13:03-04:00

I think under normal circumstances, nobody is going to hold a fellow serviceman's service or status against them in any kind of serious way. (Joking or ribbing doesn't count.)

Where people start getting seriously annoyed is when someone gets pretentious. That could be in the form of someone who hasn't deployed telling someone who has deployed the way things are or the way things should be, or the person who has deployed treating people who haven't deployed as if they have no credibility simply because they have not deployed. Nobody likes being looked down upon, especially if it's for something beyond the person's control.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 3 at 2015 2:21 PM

2015-10-03T14:21:50-04:00

Sometimes its stolen valor. Fobbits dressed like ninjas who claim to go past the wire all the time.

Response by Lt Col Stephen Petzold made Oct 3 at 2015 2:23 PM

2015-10-03T14:23:51-04:00

There is always someone who was farther out or had it worse. Veterans are such a small % of the population, we don't really need to fight among ourselves. Just don't claim to be something you are not. I say I am an Afghanistan vet not a combat vet. I always figured you at least needed to fire your weapon in anger and not into the clearing barrel to be considered having been in combat. ;)

Response by SPC Gabe Berdugo made Oct 3 at 2015 2:25 PM

2015-10-03T14:25:47-04:00

I was an 88M who left the wire almost daily. I saw very little combat, and the little I've seen was really nothing more than pop shots at a check point, a few mortar attacks which landed nowhere near us, or found IED's. Nobody in my unit got hurt due to combat related incidents. I deployed twice. First time in 07 and 08 and the second was 09 and 10. Even if you do leave the wire incidents were few and far between for us. Finding IED's were common and I remember waiting endlessly for EOD to come detonate the IED.

I think the rivalries are fun and I never take them too seriously. In the end we all volunteered. In this war, people who weren't of combat MOS's were still killed or wounded in action. I don't look down on anyone who served honorably. However, when somebody who dodged deployments or missions starts playing themselves up like they're better than everyone else, they're pretty sorry individuals to say the least. I think everybody can agree on that. And don't worry what civilians think. You served, they didn't. Doesn't matter if their brother was in Delta Force.

Response by SSG Jerry Eidson made Oct 3 at 2015 2:45 PM

2015-10-03T14:45:51-04:00

Well Thom, I look at it this way, those so called fobbits did the jobs necessary to keep the base/fob running. Allowed those of us to do our jobs outside the wire. JB Balad was mortar city when I was there and a lot of folks were injured by mortar fire. Fobbits as you say are combat vets, it's those who dodged deployments are the ones I have issues with.

Response by SFC Michael Arabian made Oct 3 at 2015 2:53 PM

2015-10-03T14:53:55-04:00

This is one thing i'll could never understand.someone thinking less of a fellow Veteran just because of the mission they were given during deployments. During Desert Storm ( as a young PFC/SPC)i served as a cook pulling guard duty, driving in re-supply convoy. doing whatever i got task to do because it was part of the mission. Years Late in 2006, i was deployed to Iraq ( as a newly Promoted SFC). My chain of command assigned to work as a Sargent of the Guard in charge of the pax terminal, ped gate and inspection yard, in charge of a team of 10 personnel. During the train up for the deployment (as a SSG), i was training to run convoys. But my COC decided they needed me somewhere else, and again i did the job assigned to me. during 2010-2011. i was deployed to Afghanistan as the BDE Food Service NCOIC, My COC needed a Senior NCO to set up and run a new PX on one of the FOB's until it could be turned over to the civilians to run, and I got this task. Did i like it no, but it was a mission i was given that had to be done so i did it. i never asked to be a Fobbit it was just the missions i was assigned that kept me on the FOB most of the time.

Response by SPC Adam Worley made Oct 3 at 2015 2:59 PM

2015-10-03T14:59:42-04:00

I dont think there is any "real" animosity between MOS, Branch, or non-deployers. There may be some ribbing. But that is more boosting self morale. "My team is better than your team". All said and done, we all served.

Response by PO1 Damian Guillen made Oct 3 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-10-03T15:48:50-04:00

I was an Aviation Ordnanceman in the Navy for 20 years and served pretty much everywhere I could possibly serve, from the 7th deck magazine in ship's company weapon's department to flight deck squadron ordnance considered one of the most dangerous workplaces on the planet). I was a recruiter, an instructor, and even worked with the Army at Camp Taji Iraq as a prison guard. I always struggled with the guilt that I was never in actual combat, but when I was on the flight deck and saw admin people come up on deck for FOD walk-down dressed in foul-weather jackets in the middle of 120 degree weather, I realized, that we all do our part in our own way.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2015 7:52 PM

2015-10-03T19:52:06-04:00

I got out as PFC with an honorable. Partly because of my own stupidity and party because of the black hole where I was stationed. When I meet someone that is an actual combat vet, I can honestly say I get a little jealous. Not because of the benefits or the treatment they receive, but because I wish I could've had the chance to serve and fight for my country. But as a tank mech on a base that had no tanks and no deploying units, I was kind of screwed.... That being said, if there was a way I could fight, I mean really FIGHT for my country today, I would. Even if it meant dying for. Because freedom isn't free.

Response by SFC Michael Remington made Oct 3 at 2015 8:14 PM

2015-10-03T20:14:22-04:00

If you went where you were told to go, There is no issue.

Response by SSG Carl Spivey made Oct 3 at 2015 9:06 PM

2015-10-03T21:06:02-04:00

I would consider you a combat veteran. Not everyone get to go into the fray but, you did your part and thanks for your service.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2015 9:45 PM

2015-10-03T21:45:59-04:00

There are those of us who were on the front lines, those that were in the FOB and those that were never deployed. To me, it doesn't matter which category you fit into just as long as if you were asked to go to the front lines, you would proudly do so. I think what makes people angry is those that try to get out of doing what they took an oath to do.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2015 10:17 PM

2015-10-03T22:17:05-04:00

We fight with the entire spear, not just the pointy end.

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made Oct 3 at 2015 10:41 PM

2015-10-03T22:41:48-04:00

Now that I've reclassed from infantry (after nearly twenty years of it) to the Army Transportation Corps, I've had mixed feelings. In my career I've been in infantry rifle companies, air assault, Airborne, Stryker, and a National Guard LRSD before it went away. Suddenly I'm a paper pusher, working in a BSB as a transportation coordinator. Sometimes, mostly when there are complaints about living conditions or how hard a duty day is, I get aggravated at the sense of "IF ONLY YOU KNEW WHAT REAL SUCK IS." But then I think about when their fueler teams were out there fueling our Strykers when I was still infantry, and I realize, there's so much that goes on, that even down to the contracting of stevedores to get things loaded and unloaded at port, the machinery that gets the trigger pullers to the fight most of the time requires services organic to the force.

But then there's the volunteer work with veterans organizations, and you find resources soaked by "era veterans" (i.e. not combat veterans) and then repeatedly trying to explain the distinction to civilians who just don't get it that not all service is equivalent and there's a good chance a Cold War vet that worked at a Nike Missile Silo exclusively talks to himself because he's just weird and not because he is visited by some service-related trauma.

That and the complaints about how hard things were for them when deployed to . Sort of like Kuwait. I even remember some of my experiences as an arctic paratrooper in Alaska in the 1990s were tougher physically, perhaps even than the first time I wore the soul crushing weight of SAPI plates, or being of that generation that did time in Bosnia or the Sinai prior to the advent of Internet and email or Skype and having to write and hinge on good old fashion letters or phone banks to talk to people back home.

Maybe having to pretend like all service is equal is something we have to indulge with the civilians who will never understand, but at least we all know the deal. Don't get me wrong, I'm always happy to hang out with veterans of any kind, but I won't pretend like I did or do the equivalent of SEAL Team 6 if they won't pretend working in the S2 is the same as serving in a line company.

Response by MAJ Joseph Ward made Oct 4 at 2015 12:14 AM

2015-10-04T00:14:06-04:00

I am not a combat vet, but I would think they really wouldn't think less of anyone who is truthful and not claiming to be a combat vet, someone has to feed those who went/go out into the red zone , maintain the equipment, take care of pay, clothing, etc

Response by SGT Patrick Castillo made Oct 4 at 2015 2:59 AM

2015-10-04T02:59:02-04:00

Quote by Ernie Pyle...“All the rest of us—you and me and even the thousands of soldiers behind the lines in Africa—we wanted terribly yet only academically for the war to be over. The front-line soldier wanted it to be terminated by the physical process of his destroying enough Germans to end it. He was truly at war. The rest of us, no matter how hard we worked, were not. Say what you will, nothing can make a complete soldier except battle experience.”

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 6:28 AM

2015-10-04T06:28:29-04:00

As an "E" ... I deployed to SEA during Vietnam (Thailand, Phillipines and Okinawa) and flew a little over 30 hrs of "Combat Time" on air refueling missions. Did several deployments in my just under 4 years of total E time, not to mention many, many days on SAC Nuke Alert. As an "O" ... I deployed to Germany (I know ... tough gig) and flew another 55 hrs "Combat Time" aeromedical evac missions into Iraq, Afghanistan and Kuwait on C-17s. I personally realize the difference between my flight time and the warrior outside the wire as NOT being the same "combat". But remember we all did what we needed to do to support the mission. Take care of each other and watch over each other ... just like we did then. When I came home after my "E" tour (1974) ... the WWII and Korea guys at the local VFW didn't really recognize the fact that we "non-boots-on-the-ground" were even Vets. As one might expect ... that local VFW is closed its doors ... all the WWII and Korea guys died off and since they never really "accepted" us ... no one to carry it on. Don't lever let that happen in your community.

Response by SPC Aaron Zehner made Oct 4 at 2015 10:06 AM

2015-10-04T10:06:20-04:00

I was a fobbit, I wasn't exactly happy about it but I believed in what we were doing was important.We trained the A.N.A. on prision duties and how to think before acting, however having to see Taliban everyday for a year knowing that one of our fellow service members had been killed by them pisses you off, but you respect what they have to go through, I believe that whatever your job is overseas that it has an important purpose, everyone's there looking out for our brothers and sisters and I know that I felt that working with other branches while deployed.

Response by SFC John Mikelson made Oct 4 at 2015 4:43 PM

2015-10-04T16:43:41-04:00

I retired with 26 years and no deployments. I was a Infantry Medic, recruiter, supply sergeant in a medical company that had just returned when I arrived and deployed after I retired. Was never on an assignment that went
Never avoided them just wasn't in the cards for me

Response by SSG Courtney Ellis made Nov 10 at 2016 1:49 PM

2016-11-10T13:49:14-05:00

Trust me you did more than enough!!!!!

Response by PO1 Jim Spencer made Nov 10 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-11-10T14:02:01-05:00

I always get a kick out of the guys at the VFW who are so full of themselves that they always ask new members what they did to be able to join the organization. My response to them is "I have an Expeditionary Medal". I have 2 actually and a few other awards that would get me membership there. They don't need to know.

Response by SSG Tony Eychaner made Apr 9 at 2018 3:31 AM

2018-04-09T03:31:30-04:00

I can see what you say. I was a Scout for three deployments. The thing is that a lot of vets that have never deployed to any place except maybe Kuwait like to put themselves in the same light as COMBAT vets. It's insulting to have a POG act like they are on the same page, when we are miles apart in experiences. Fact: While it is true that just being in service can make you a vet, it should be noted that you are a non combat vet if you have never, in fact been in combat. Too many times I see people shaking hands and thanking Joes for their service, but the only thing they did was give me a TM or some rear D stuff, and I can respect that, but being in the Army and not deploying to war when others do and then claiming to be the same as kind is bullshit. I have seen female mechanics get CABs for being at the same FOB that was a target. Why? Politics. Political horseshit. I have seen a female S1 that had spent WAY too much time either with a Mortar platoon SGT alone in their CP, or just hanging out with the Mortars way too much. When our unit deployed they brought this non combat type along for a walk through the palm grove. Suddenly she was the first female in combat for our Division. Bullshit. She was window dressing for the mortars and the division, PC all over the place, follow? Fun Facts. Pregnancies increase among females (military) just before deployments. My wife has a National Guard friend who had gotten pregnant to avoid a deployment to a combat zone. Now she just came back from her stint in Kuwait. She had the balls to ask for a CARE PACKAGE. in ARIFJAN!!! Arifjan is not a deployment, by the way. It's a vacation, and a training and RnR facility, and that is all. So I respect those who do their service, yes, but this "hey, I am a vet too" shit has got to stop. Sure you are a vet, yes, but of what? Being in the Army two years just to get money for college does NOT make you like me. Choosing a non combat MOS does not a combat vet make. Granted, on some missions we had S! and mechanics come along, but hear is the clincher: they only came because a s Scouts we got into some nasty shit. Seems they wanted to get in on it too. Why? So they could hold the title of "Combat Veteran" and not be held in doubt, if not in their own minds. These kind we loathe. Wanting to go to war to see action. What kind of stupid are you? I have seen action. I have been blown up, shot at, and been pissed off. I have crawled over my friends burning guts to escape the EFP attack on out gun truck. There's some action for ya. I had a commander and his 2LT get blown to a fine mist just two days before we left. Ever see what a bullet does to a head? No, see the body bags are not water proof, they leak all over the front of my truck all the way to the LZ. True story. True combat. I could write a book on this stuff, but then I would go mad. I have been wounded and have permanent hearing lost and scarring on my brain. I will live. I am a combat veteran. and that is all I got to say. Attached is a pic of a combat vet, a Scout platoon leader, and my friend. We will meet at Fiddler's Green.

Response by SSG Tony Eychaner made Apr 9 at 2018 4:11 AM

2018-04-09T04:11:04-04:00

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 9 at 2018 9:28 AM

2018-04-09T09:28:09-04:00

It is not hostility, hell there were times I wished I was in the rear- it's a morale thing- Yeah I'm an ass kicking grunt- you are a Fobbit pogue. It is the same thing between front line and DS support and GS support, Army vs Navy vs USAF vs USMC.

Response by SPC David Willis made Apr 9 at 2018 9:56 AM

2018-04-09T09:56:16-04:00

The only fobbits I genuinely hated were those that worked the chow hall. Being told I'm too dirty or sweaty to eat after coming off a two day rotation fosters quite a bit of resentment. Now I know they were only doing a job, but tell a tired pissed off grunt he cant eat because he's dirty while you sit in the air con in a garrison looking uniform and you've made an enemy. Other than that I was more jealous of folks staying inside the wire than anything, no real hostility at all.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2018 10:11 AM

2018-04-09T10:11:26-04:00

Anyone living and working in a combat area of operations can become a casualty. In that sense, everyone who's signed up for that deserves the respect accorded. Some folks end up doing things well outside their "job description"...and experience more risk, and spend more time in hazardous duties. They too, deserve their own level of respect.

Then, there are those whose training means that if there is "combat", they'll likely be part of it. They may spend years preparing for action that never comes. To my mind, they are still "combat" personnel, and have their own rightly derived sense of respect.

Finally, there are those who find themselves directly engaged, and engage, either directly, or by coordinating the direct actions of others. They may come from any service branch, rank or specialization...but when it mattered, they did what they were called upon to do. To my mind, whether an "operator", Combat Arms...or a cook who manned an anti-aircraft gun at Pearl Harbor, or an aviator who drew his pistol to defend his FOB...these are "combat veterans".

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2020 5:37 AM

2020-02-27T05:37:28-05:00

All gave, some gave all.