D.O.R.-Is there a true career path for "Fallen Angels"?

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:07:11 -0400

For those RP members who served in Naval Aviation, the dreaded "D.O.R" is synonymous with the end of a junior officer's career...or is it? Should it be, and if so, what can we do as a service to advise officer candidates applying to enter API about the potential risk? Having experienced this process first hand, I have my own thoughts, opinions and examples, but believe as a community, we can share detailed information that may salvage some great potential out there among our more junior shipmates.

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Aug 28 at 2015 10:19 AM

SCPO David Lockwood — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:19:12 -0400

Sir my thought is that the D.O.R should NOT be the kiss of death for our junior officers. I believe they should be afforded the opportunity to change their designation if they are not ableto pursue a career in the Aviation Field no matter what the reason. Junio Officers are just like Junior Sailors in that they need the guidance from Senior Officers and Senior Enliseted to help them make the correct choices in their careers.

In today's Navy the lines between enlisted and officer is almost non existant. The reason why I say this is that the one major thing that differentiated the Officers from the Enlisted was a College degree. Nowadays there are enlisted with Masters and PHDs, more educated than most JOs.

My point is that JOs should not have their careers ended because the were not ablle to complete aviation training. Like JEs they should be given an alternate opportunity.

My thoughts.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2015 10:33 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:33:18 -0400

I know several pilots who left at some point and have had successful careers elsewhere. I also know quite a few who were bitter and discontent and never put their best effort forward again. They didn't succeed. A big part of it is attitude, and another big part is ensuring that their new community knows they are going to be a hard worker and learn quickly. They will be behind the curve but that doesn't mean the end, it just means needing to catch up. Some of the communities I've seen success in afterwards are AMDO, Intel, SWO (if early enough in career).

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2015 10:39 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:39:15 -0400

This question is one that has accompanied me for the last fifteen years of my life, and had significant effects on both my military and civil life. I believe it has value as a teaching point for "those that follow" in our steps, and am hoping for some constructive discussion. First, the background: In 2000, I successfully selected one of a couple hundred coveted billets to VT-4 from my graduating class at Annapolis. As a history major, I had struggled all four years with mathematics, while excelling at other courses and achieving a high military performance rating as part of my total PQR. It was the opinion of (and I concur with) senior officers involved in my interview process that a solid performance record outside of the hard sciences overcame initial concerns with my academic record.

I completed API (the physical/"weed-out") phase of Primary Flight Training successfully and moved on to VT-4 as a SNFO, initially performing very well in the FAM phase, and eventually being moved up to a higher paced group of students conducting multiple "X's" culminating in a night instrument check-ride in preparation for a Tampa area "boondoggle". In the weeks leading up to this, as I moved to the "back seat" and focused on navigation, it became obvious that I was having severe difficulties with point to point and composite approaches. I was flying exclusively at that time with an Air Force CAPT as instructor pilot. Within a month, I had begun having severe "helmet fires" at critical junctures, and my performance deteriorated so radically that it was being discussed whether or not it was possible to pull out of the decline before the dreaded "third down".

Based on a variety of "bad gouge" including my false perception that it would be far worse from a career perspective to fail than request transfer, and operating on counseling from my squadron commander that any request to continue straight to the Surface Warfare line community would undoubtedly be approved...I made the very difficult decision to DOR immediately after completing and graduating from Primary SNFO in the T-34c before moving on to Intermediate SNFO. Instead of the transfer of designator to the 1100 series, I was instead re-designated 1305 and sent to work for the TRAWING as an aircraft incident investigator; several months of which I spent working on the case of two instructor pilots I had known personally who were killed in the line of duty while operating near Pensacola. During that time, I was under command of a Marine O-5 and rated (expectantly) very poorly on FITREPS. My Navy O-5 investigative lead (NFO) questioned these evaluations and convinced TRAWING to put me under his direct evaluation...leading to vastly improved FITREPS the remainder of my period with the VTs. In September, 2001, I was on duty at the squadron when 9/11 occurred, and within days, had formally contacted my detailer for any assignment to the OEF theater of operations. I was offered staff duty on a carrier, or the "Mini-Boss" billet on USS SHREVEPORT (LPD-12). I was advised the amphib would offer more opportunity to qualify SWO, not to mention a DIVO billet...so naturally, I jumped at it. I was there for the majority of two, back-to-back sea tours, earning qualification as HCO, OOD underway, CICWO and TAO under instruction. I completed all PQS for SWO and was awaiting a board when the 2004 IRAD occurred. Despite our schedule to re-deploy within a month, the formal appeals of both my O-6 (Aviator) CO and PHBGRU, I was attached to the Admiral's office for about three months, then released to the IRR in late 2004.

Within a year, I had affiliated with the SELRES while working in construction, and within 24 months, I had secured orders to TAD as an Individual Augmentee to support OEF as an adviser to the ANA. I was instructed that completion of this tour as a volunteer would grant me another "look" for transfer to the 1100 series and return to full active duty status. When I returned, despite being awarded the MSM and promoted to O-4 in the NAVRES, I was eventually counseled by a senior O-6 mentor previously assigned to NAVPRSCOM that my status as having voluntarily left a course of training had marked me as a "probationary officer"...and that my best options were to continue in the Reserves, though without a permanent billet, it would likely be only matter of time before I was once again released to the IRR.

In the interim years between 2008-2010, I found a new career in corporate technical sales, earned promotion head of my sales division, and finally found that trying to excel at two careers was never going to work as well as one. In late 2010, I tendered my resignation and was granted Honorable Discharge as O-4 within weeks of my application.

Two points I wish to re-iterate: 1) I am GRATEFUL to the U.S. Navy for my years as an officer, and the skills, experiences and memories afforded by that honor. 2) I have, as the years passed, come to understand and accept that the competitive nature of our profession demands people of the highest standard, and I consider my honors evidence of the fact that I had the right heart...but perhaps the wrong mind for tactical aviation. Five years later, I'm happily married, involved in my community and expecting my first child...Life is good, and things worked out. However, I believe incoming officers should think very hard before entering a course of training...make their decision analytically, rather than emotionally, keeping what's best for the service in mind above their own ambitions.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Aug 29 at 2015 6:48 AM

CDR Michael Goldschmidt — Sat, 29 Aug 2015 06:48:15 -0400

Flying isn't like ANYTHING else. I, myself, am an attrited former SNFO, and I feel betrayed, even so many years later. (Many = 31). The truth is that the United States doesn't mind wasting resources, including human resources. Flight school, is (or was) a recruiting scheme. In the 80s, at least, the Navy brought in way more new Ensigns to aviation than they intended to graduate. Then, if you were having trouble for any reason, if you were having trouble keeping up, they'd just cut you. There was no extra help, just goodbye. The NFO curriculum didn't include any stick time, and, while the pilots got to fly slowly for a while, NFO students went straight to Instrument flying at 210 knots. Then, after about a dozen hours, we went up to 360. That's cooking along. Checking my logbook, I had 65.8 hours in 3 naval aircraft, including two twin-engine jets and a turboprop single. I was #2 in my ground school class, having aced the first 6 exams. My last flights were 300 knot Visual Navigation hops at 1000' Above Ground Level. My brain only operated at about 250 knots.

Fallen Angels tended to do great in other fields, because their brains were used to operating much, much faster than ships do. I, myself, found shiphandling very easy, because the relative motion was so slow, even at 30 knots. The truth is, though, I didn't want to be a SWO. I chose NFO, the Navy chose ME for SWO. I never even put it on my dream sheet.

Did I have a successful career? I guess it depends on whom you ask. One of my flight school roommates is a RDML, so I guess I didn't, compared to him. On the other hand, I had 3 RDMLs write me recommendations to the O-5 Selection Board, so asking them, I guess I did. I've always been the odd man out in the Navy, so maybe it would have been a hard row to hoe, no matter where I'd landed. (By the way, I'm now an aircraft owner and pilot. Go figure!)

Response by CAPT Tom Kap made Jun 8 at 2021 10:39 AM

CAPT Tom Kap — Tue, 08 Jun 2021 10:39:25 -0400

I am among the group and I made it to CAPT