Do members who are a part of the Simultaneous Membership Program outrank enlisted members in the Air Force?

2d Lt Cinthia W. — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 14:15:15 -0400

I have an subordinate who is enrolled in AF ROTC and enlisted in the Air National Guard (E4). I understand that this person is apart of SMP but does this individual outrank all other enlisted? I know in the Army, the answer is yes; but I am not sure in the Air Force.

Response by 1SG Charles Hunter made Jul 19 at 2020 2:21 PM

1SG Charles Hunter — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 14:21:31 -0400

I believe your E4 outranks all E3s. That should be uniform across all services.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2020 2:40 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 14:40:10 -0400

I believe until such time that they are commissioned they do not outrank you.

Response by CW4 Keith Dolliver made Jul 19 at 2020 2:46 PM

CW4 Keith Dolliver — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 14:46:48 -0400

Admittedly, I'm not familiar with this specific program, but I would assume that whatever rank they hold is only good for the status they're acting in at that time. Similar to if I have a USAR or NG SM that holds their civilian job as a DoD civilian. Even if they outrank me in the USAR/NG, that rank would only apply when they are drilling or called to active duty, not in their civilian capacity.

The same is scenario is true from theater commissions and theater ranks from WWII time frame. In that time officers would often get promoted and hold a "theater rank" in a different component (not Regular Army) when they were in the wartime theater that was not their permanent rank and they would lose that rank/position once the redeployed. Sometimes the rank differences were very drastic, i.e. a Major in garrison could be a Major General when deployed.

I would assume your scenario would be similar to the two I laid out and they would only be entitled to customary E-4 courtesies in the NG when drilling/activated.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jul 19 at 2020 2:50 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 14:50:01 -0400

Sergeant,
This is a telling situation. IF the SMP Cadet/Airman is throwing the "I outrank You" card, then it is indicative of a service member that has his priorities skewed and I doubt that his ROTC Commanders would support him playing the rank card either. IF you are right, If you are correct, then the SMP guy should just do the right thing, follow orders and drive on. IF you are in the wrong, you need to step up, own it and drive on.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jul 19 at 2020 3:22 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 15:22:10 -0400

Ah, the old question "Does a Cadet outrank enlisted"? Cadets serving in SMP programs are paid as E-5, but that's just pay scale and their rank is Cadet, which isn't anywhere in your chain of command. However, if your unit is trying to train that Cadet, they should have him/her at least assisting a position that is commissioned. In that case, they should be given the authority and courtesy of the position. So if they are acting as Assistant Platoon Leader, obey their instructions and salute them at the appropriate times. If for no other reason, then remember that person could be commissioned and your boss in the very near future.

Response by SFC James (Jim) R Brown made Jul 19 at 2020 4:42 PM

SFC James (Jim) R Brown — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 16:42:53 -0400

As an E7 Readiness NCO SMPs were treated the same as any enlisted and that is what they are until they receive a commission. Our SMPs took order the same as an enlisted. Could have cared less about the little round disks on their collar. They lie just like privates.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2020 5:10 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 17:10:55 -0400

Good comms usually resolves it, professionalism always, people are you're greatest resource, Middies used to sign up as E5 years back, so go from there. I know USMC NCOs and SNCOs wear candidates out on their path to bars. USNA, Flight School, OCS. PFCs did during WWI/II at Parris Island, Quantico, and out west.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 19 at 2020 5:37 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 17:37:40 -0400

Cadets do not outrank Army personnel save the grade they hold on papers. Cadets are not commissioned, therefore they outrank no one. If I am mistaken someone feel free to share with me that and e4 in the SMP outranks a MSG in the AF, Army etc.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Jul 19 at 2020 8:18 PM

LTJG Richard Bruce — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 20:18:28 -0400

Cadet/Midshipmen rank between WO-1 and CWO-2. WO-1 are given a "warrant" by their respective branch secretary. CWO-2 and above are commissioned by the President. Cadets/Mids hold an "office" given by their respective branch Secretary.

Outside of the Academies and college campuses, Cadets/Mids are placed in billets that infer their rank relationship within the unit. Command usually instruct their members on how to treat and address Cadets/Mids. For example, a 3/C Cadet/Mid is usually treated as a E-3/4. A 2/C Cadet/Mid is usually treated as a E-4/5. 1/C Cadets/Mids are usually treated as a Junior Officer. Cadets/Mids are not expected to be experts in any field, which is why they do not replace E-6's. Cadets/Mids are instructed on how to act and what is expected of them within the unit's rank structure.

Internal rank structure of Academy and ROTC programs affect only other cadets/mids.

Cadets/Mids take the same Oath of Office as Commissioned Officers.

Cadets/Midshipmen of the four military academies are subject to the UCMJ's Art 133 Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman. These Cadets/Mids are full time active duty. ROTC members are subject to same article under certain conditions, but not at all times.

In emergencies, Cadets/Mids are expected to become "officer-in-charge" of unit when all senior are dead or cannot perform such duties. They will hold legal responsibility for all those junior in rank.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2020 10:18 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jul 2020 22:18:13 -0400

Rather than worrying about who outranks who, help this young airman/officer candidate develop into an officer you would be proud to serve with. How you treat this young person now, will have an impact on how he/she views NCOs when the time comes for him/her to commission and determine the type of officer he/she will become as he/she progresses from LT to Col.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2020 2:03 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Jul 2020 02:03:55 -0400

Per AR 600-20 Table 1, ROTC and Cadets outrank E9's. There is even a hierarchy for cadets depending on their path of commission.

Everyone commissioned WO1 and above are senior to cadets, then:
WEST POINT Cadet regardless of year then
ROTC Cadet regardless of year then
OCS Candidate then
WO Candidate then
SGM of the Army and everything below that.

Funny story, per my previous Company Commander. While he was an OCS candidate (remember, they commission in a matter of months relative to an ROTC freshman) he was told to drop by an ROTC cadet because he failed to salute (as per the reason many are giving here). A few months later my commander got his butter bar and their paths crossed again 4 years later. The ROTC cadet had finally graduated college and became a 2LT. That OCS candidate he dropped was now a CPT. The 2LT failed to render the CPT a salute. Karma does exist.

But basically, the answer to the original question is spelled out in AR 600-20

I personally had a few ROTC cadets under my command. Two of which were prior enlisted within my unit and chose to say attached and drill with us when they bumped up and contracted ROTC. So 600-20 in regard to cadets became relevant in my life. Everyone was professional about it, and shared the jokes both ways. One Cadet pointed out the correct regulation stating he outranked 1SG. I of course told him he was correct, but that ALSO, he isn't branch qualified and if we get deployed his ass is staying behind. So he's more worthless to me than a newly minted E1 out of AIT.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jul 20 at 2020 10:47 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 20 Jul 2020 10:47:30 -0400

Please understand that "practice" and "theory" are two totally different things.
Technically, in theory, per AR 600-20 a cadet outranks an E-9. In practice, however, you aren't even that E-9's peer until you hit MAJ.

Response by A1C Johnny Le made Jul 20 at 2020 11:36 AM

A1C Johnny Le — Mon, 20 Jul 2020 11:36:34 -0400

This is confusing, I am in afrotc and I never heard of SMP for the air force Tsgt? Is it POC, when it the cadet 3rd year that cadet is given E5.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jul 22 at 2020 4:05 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Wed, 22 Jul 2020 16:05:39 -0400

Cadets have O club privileges that’s about it all they have going for them if they’re in training programs, they’re not commissioned officers. They’re college students playing soldier in the summer.

Response by 1SG Joseph Dartey made Jul 22 at 2020 7:38 PM

1SG Joseph Dartey — Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:38:18 -0400

As a retired Army JROTC Instructor, I worked closely with the ROTC Instructors at the university level, which were active duty soldiers. I agree with SSG Jason Penn. I would suggest that you talk to the AF ROTC Instructors to find out what authority the E4 has and does not have.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Jul 23 at 2020 1:48 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:48:21 -0400

I know this will not answer your question but is good advice I received 31 years ago as a Civil Air Patrol Cadet moving into AFJROTC who thought he was top cookie. I was unhappy I did not get class leader and this MSgt taught me it is not the rank you wear but the job you do. I am about to retire as an Army Nurse with so many qualifications I do not need any transition from the Army because I still follow this advice. It is nice to retire as a major however it is even nicer to be considered a good RN and I can put any CSM in their place not because of my rank (no way in hell would I think to try) but because I took MSgt Loreman's advice and became good at my job.

Response by PO1 Richard Cormier made Jul 23 at 2020 2:34 PM

PO1 Richard Cormier — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:34:45 -0400

When I was a young PO3 (E4 Navy) I was going to School at the old NAS P'Cola. I had to go to the main base Pensacola Naval Air Station and there were a group of Cadets training for air training (think "Officer and a Gentleman"). I asked the Marine "Gunny" training them, so as to not to interfere with training nor break protocol, and he informed me that they salute ALL non-coms. Do not know if things have changed but glad I didn't have to check it out.