Does the military give us a false sense of capability? What does the military NOT teach you...

2015-02-26T09:09:31-05:00

In reading on RP, talking to transitioning co-workers, etc...

does the military give us a false sense of "we can do anything!!" ? Does our "can do" attitude not really translate to civilian life.

we tell ourselves and each other that after being in one leadership position, I can be in ANY leadership position....I can open up my own business or run for office...but yet, no one outside of uniform seems to think this (from what I have seen/read/heard so far). @SFC John Gates @ Mark Merino

In the military, we talk about how much equipment we signed for, how many people we were in charge of, and some other random numbers. We talk about discipline in PT scores and adherence to a uniform regulation. Yet, this doesnt impress civilians, as they dont operate like this. There is no civilian eqiuvalent to the 'No Limit Soldier' or, 'High Speed, Low Drag.'

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 9:14 AM

2015-02-26T09:14:21-05:00

After leaving active duty several years ago, I've really come to appreciate how insulated the military is. Transition takes humility.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 9:33 AM

2015-02-26T09:33:49-05:00

MAJ Jim Steven, I think the can-do attitude is something we take away from the military, and it helps immensely when we encounter obstacles in our post-military life.

To me, at least, that doesn't mean I'm invincible and can literally do anything, but as I'm pursuing my goals and soldiering on, in civilian life, I can reach back and tap into the discipline, the "git 'er done" mentality, etc., when I encounter a problem or a hurdle I need to get through.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 9:44 AM

2015-02-26T09:44:10-05:00

I have transitioned and have slowly put the pieces together on the civilian side.

The answer to your question has many facets. One being, the "can do" attitude or resilience. Man oh man, does it go a looooong way. You will notice that Co workers gripe about things and half heartedly complete tasks at a level that your average E1 would scoff at. Also, it helps during the job search. So, in that sense, kudos to the military for education us on embracing the suck.

As far as mil-civ translation goes, there are plenty of MOSs (all services) that have very similar civilian occupations. Further, knowing how to make your skill sets relevant to the civilian world is a skill in itself that isn't emphasized enough. For instance, leadership is transcending. Every company wants people of good character and sound judgement. Making your leadership matter to employers is not like writing an evaluation report bullet.

My advice to any transitioning service member: As a service member, you have unique and valuable experience. Do not let the idea of transitioning intimidate you. Who cares if you don't think you qualify for a great job or have the skill set. Think back on your service, and cater to the job description. Also, bear in mind, that regardless of your education level vs. Others, your experiences go beyond books and class rooms. Degrees don't make a person smarter than you. Most people I have worked with, that have higher educational levels than me, really aren't all that smart.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Feb 26 at 2015 9:49 AM

2015-02-26T09:49:42-05:00

A few thoughts:
- A positive mental attitude is always a good thing whether in the military or civilian worlds.
- A "can do" attitude is a good thing in either the military or civilian worlds as long as it is tempered in reality and expectations as to what is feasible, acceptable, suitable.
- Not all leaders can succeed in any/all leadership positions whether military or civilian. Technical expertise, personality, culture, and timing all play a role. For example, Patton would have failed as the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe and Ike would not have been as successful as Patton as Commander, 3rd Army.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 9:54 AM

2015-02-26T09:54:40-05:00

I think the 'can do' attitude isn't a detriment unless it has led you to hubris. Instead of "I've totally done this, so I can do similar things anywhere." the statement should be "Man, I've done all that...so I will be able to LEARN this." The lessons I took from my active duty time only served as a foundation to build a successful career on.

We often forget that learning is a process that NEVER stops. A crusty pissed off Sergeant Major years ago said to our battalion "You can fix ignorant, you can't fix stupid. The day you stop learning is the day they're shoveling dirt on your coffin".

While yes, many of us have led soldiers or had responsibility for millions of dollars of equipment...unless we are going into a career field that matches that description word for word we have to understand that while the general skill set we have is good, we will always have something we need to go learn.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Feb 26 at 2015 10:26 AM

2015-02-26T10:26:29-05:00

I think the military gives us great skills to succeed but they are not necessarily directly transferable. The mental toughness and ability to look back and think "I have been through so much worse." is certainly worthwhile but you can't really put it on a resume; you have to prove it on the job. Often times as Veterans we feel we are better than our civilian counterparts (for better or worse) and I think this leads to unrealistic expectations too.

Also, the fact that we come out of the service with many skills but no civilian equivalent certification or anything is a huge let down to soldiers. They know they can do the job and do it well but they are told they have to go get the certification/degree before they will be allowed to work.

I will add that there is also the issue that such a small percentage of the population has served or even known someone who served that they do not understand or appreciate the value of military experience. I have heard of managers hiring people because of their time in the military because they know what they are capable of as far as handling stress, being reliable, etc. but this is the exception not the norm.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Feb 26 at 2015 10:32 AM

2015-02-26T10:32:31-05:00

Based on sitting in both worlds, A few things come immediately to mind:

First, there is much less deference to "official" authority. This sounds trivial, but it is a really big shock to those who are used to HAVING authority and don't even realize it until it disappears.

Second, "what have you done for me lately?" There is an expectation in the military that your placement TODAY has a DIRECT relationship with what you did in the past. A CO CDR might go on to be a staff officer, but they won't go back to being a PL. They have BTDT, and are now entitled to bigger and better. This is why there is so much angst about having to "start over" and civilians not "acknowledging my military experience and placing me appropriately." I've commented about this at length elsewhere, but in the civilian world, when you change fields, you generally (there are exceptions) can expect to go several rungs DOWN the ladder. In military terms, if you were an Armor MAJ and decided to go Signal, you could well end up going from staff back to a platoon - with an attendant loss of pay & status.

Third, there is far less "official authority" (regardless of deference or no). This means that, to a MUCH greater extent, what you get/accomplish/get done relies on your informal networks of people who will chose to help you - or not. And appeals to civilian policies or regulations will get you an eye roll 9 times out of 10.

All the above is grossly oversimplified, but generally accurate. The bottom line is that civilian cultures are generally VASTLY different than what someone whose only experience is the military can imagine/believe.

Oh, and there's no manual. Just a bunch of outdated SOPs and TTPs that a buddy who knows a buddy passed on. ;-)

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 12:26 PM

2015-02-26T12:26:23-05:00

From my experience civilians aren't really looking for a good leader, they are looking for a good manager. You can be a great leader but a very bad manager and sometimes it is hard for a civilian employer to take the leap of faith that a highly motivated 20 something is ready to manage a department in their company. Maybe a little more so from a retiree but not so much from a guy who just finished one or two enlistments even if that guy was responsible for millions of dollars of equipment and 20+ soldiers/sailors.

The military focus on your ability to lead, you always hear recently transitioned vets talking about their leadership skills. From a civilian's point of view it must have been easy to lead a bunch of guys who have no choice but to show up and even face jail time if they don't obey. But can you manage a disparate group of civilians who all think they are worth more than they are being paid, are constantly working on their resumes and will quit at the drop of a hat? Can you get that bunch to do the job, under budget, and on time?

Civilian managers are politicians not generals. It doesn't matter if you are good manager if you don't highlight that for them, emphasize the management not the leadership. Good leaders who are also good managers will filter to the top in the civilian world.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Feb 26 at 2015 12:28 PM

2015-02-26T12:28:28-05:00

It is all about realistic exptecations and managment of those expectations. Many Servicemembers wait till the last minute to prepare for the outside world because of multiple factors we teach and don't even realize it.

We are told that we are a step ahead of all our peers and will be hired quickly. This creates a form of superiority and complacency. Yes you may be a fantastic Infantry leader but if you think you will just walk into a business and become the Director of Ops just because you are mistaken and that guy is stuck in the unemployment line with a surprised look on his face.

The civilian world is all about training completed and applicable skills. In the Military we do OJT for everything but that is not the case in the civilian world. They want degrees, certificates and validated experience that applies directly to the job at hand.

Being full of piss and vinegar is good but it has to be channeled properly. Yes the business place is open to hiring veterans but unless you are qualified for that specialty expect to be offered employment in lower tier positions. It isn't meant as an insult as some take it. If you are not qualified or trained in that field the employer isn't required by law to allow you time to learn on the go. They have a deadline to meet and have to produce or they will be beat out by the other guy. That is how capitilism and business works.

Best thing you can do if you don't have special training that is accepted in the private sector is to use that post 9/11 GI Bill. That coupleed with your Military background will be an amazing combo.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 3:05 PM

2015-06-05T15:05:46-04:00

We're not teaching enough about our history; the good and the bad.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Jul 16 at 2020 10:24 PM

2020-07-16T22:24:27-04:00

Probably the biggest problem with people in the military is that they lie to themselves and others. Nobody is perfect and can do any job under any conditions. People should do what lines up with their talents and interests but should also be given the opportunity to develop in areas where they need improvement. Nobody should be given only command or only staff positions. All our officers and NCOs should be well rounded. Not everyone is a natural leader or an expert in their field. If we are honest about our limitations we can then work to improve on our shortcomings.