Ethical Question: Bad Lieutenant. What do you do?

Capt Jeff S. — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 04:00:29 -0400

What if you found out your Platoon Commander was a dope smoking college dropout that submitted forged documents to enter the military. On the outside, he looks like a model infantry officer, but it also has been your observation that your Platoon Commander is lazy, forgetful, and inept (can't read a map) and he relies heavily on his SNCO's to think for him... you being one of them.

You inform your Commanding Officer and he tells you there's nothing he can do about it because the Platoon Commander's father is a high ranking Senator on the Senate Armed Services Committee. The Senator had been the target of allegations of corruption and the General who leaked word of his corruption to the press was relieved and forced into retirement. Shortly after retiring, the General was the unfortunate victim of a home invasion in which his wife and daughter were brutally murdered. Coincidence?

Your Commanding Officer is worried about his career and doesn't want to make waves that could adversely impact his family or chances for promotion. He forbids you to bring the matter up again -- with ANYONE!

Your Platoon Commander finds out you told your Commanding Officer and calls you into his office. He chews you out and promises to gives you a career ending mediocre fitness report if you tell anyone else what you know... and it appears your Commanding Officer has been threatened in some way. Your Commanding Officer is clearly intimidated and refuses to do anything about it.

Your unit is preparing to deploy overseas and could be in combat. What do you do?

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 11:38 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 11:38:38 -0400

Sir,
Is this the plot of a movie? Seems pretty extreme and crazy. If it's not I hope justice is served, whatever that may be.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jul 21 at 2014 12:10 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 12:10:49 -0400

Forged documents = fraudulant enlistment and is punishable under UCMJ. Period. Any exteranl attempt to change that is undue influence. Also punishable under UCMJ.

Response by Cpl Brett Wagner made Jul 21 at 2014 12:36 PM

Cpl Brett Wagner — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 12:36:28 -0400

Capt Jeff Schwager that is a good question. Take him out get him drunk set him up with some strippers and get lot's of pictures?

Response by LCpl Steve Wininger made Jul 21 at 2014 5:06 PM

LCpl Steve Wininger — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 17:06:08 -0400

Blanket party comes to mind, but since officers don't sleep with the enlisted that route is unlikely. It seems to me like the orders given by the CO are illegal. I question the CO's ability because he is willing to put politics above unit safety and mission success. The CO is not the last person in my chain of command.

If the CO is not willing to do something then an anonymous letter to the press in the Senators home state explaining the details could do some good. One thing is certain, Senators do not like bad publicity.

If none of the above worked, I would be trying everything I could to transfer out, however, I would not feel right leaving all my buddies behind.

Since said Lieutenant is not capable of thinking for himself, and really has no clue about what he is doing, the chances of him having an accident in the field or combat is greatly increased.

I think the route I would most likely take is risk my own career and do everything I can to expose the Lieutenant. Saving the lives of my fellow service members is much more important than saving my own career, at least they will be alive and I would be able to sleep with myself at night.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 5:12 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 17:12:16 -0400

Capt Schwager,

I would call CID re fraud in seeking his commission. But, you are having us on . . . right?

Warmest Regards, Sandy

The photo and description strongly resemble Lt. William Laws Calley, Jr . . . found guilty by Courts Martial of murdering 22 unarmed South Vietnamese civilians in the My Lai Massacre.

Please keep in mind that of 26 officers and soldiers charged in his chain of command, only Calley was convicted. Many believe Calley was just a scapegoat. President Nixon ultimately issued Calley a limited pardon that upheld general courts martial conviction and dismissal from the Army but commuted the prison sentence and parole obligations to time served.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 5:25 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 17:25:02 -0400

Forged documents are a no go and will not only give him UCMJ but will but others under investigation. You go to up the chain until someone listens because if it is found you knew and did nothing (or you can't prove you did sonething) you can find yourself in hot water.
The only thing is going to be do you have evidence...I can only imagine repercussions if the accusation is false.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 6:49 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 18:49:13 -0400

Some more left wing media propaganda for you, seems like everyone is in this big conspiracy cover up!!

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/07/obamas-sealed-records/

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 8:35 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 20:35:16 -0400

If so I would put him in for a medal so I would be on his good side for when he makes general or becomes President one day. What does it matter? I feel that this is something of dreams with an underlining motive.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jul 21 at 2014 9:01 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:01:20 -0400

Wow, I agree with CPT Private RallyPoint Member this sounds like some kind of good movie plot. The likelihood of all these circumstances coming together would be quite astronomical, but if you break it down, each piece demonstrates the absence of scruples, ethics and morals that we see every day in all levels of the system. The "system' is allowed to continue on, broken, corrupt and dysfunctional because it suits the power brokers. Those that question the "system" or those in control are targeted and labeled - "whistle blowers", "trouble makers" and "non-conformists" These people are then "vanished" or "excused" from the system so as not to spread further dissent.

Response by Capt Richard Desmond made Jul 21 at 2014 9:09 PM

Capt Richard Desmond — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:09:51 -0400

Since he cant read a map I'm assuming your talking about Capt Sobel from Band of Brothers. Solution is to have all NCOs quit, face possible death by treason before D-Day, and have him transfer to a CONUS for a jump school for docs. Also you need a Lt Winters around to make the NCOs do that...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 10:48 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 22:48:32 -0400

I got nothin'.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Jul 21 at 2014 11:53 PM

MAJ Jim Woods — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 23:53:51 -0400

Capt. Schwager,

I had the son of a prominent Senator (the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee) in my Company in VN (2nd tour). Both now deceased and this was in late 69 early 70 in case you are trying to figure out who it is. i passed the info on thru the Chain and also to the Army CID and they handled it perfectly. He was fraud, a thief, and a liar. He got some time in Leavenworth for it. I did get some Congressional Inquiries and letters written to the Division CG but to his credit he let it be handled at the lowest level. I have a picture of the CG pinning on one of my BS"V"s. Great memories of times gone past.

And as for the picture, I believe it to be Lt. Patrick Calley. I was a CO (IOBC) at Ft. Benning in 68-69 while his trial was going on. He didn't get what he deserved.

The lesson to be learned here is do what you can within the limits of your ability and if it doesn't work out, you did your best. Suck It Up and Drive On!

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Jul 23 at 2014 1:37 AM

PO3 John Jeter — Wed, 23 Jul 2014 01:37:57 -0400

This could go back and forth forever without accomplishing much except raising blood pressures. Personally I believe it's too late to remedy the problems in office now. In time, I would like to see a requirement established that you must serve in the armed forces at least one tour in order to become POTUS. Between the 'marching band' and 'reefer madness' I've seen little to admire or respect.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 11:15 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 23:15:29 -0400

I would call Jason Bourne who would initiate contact with his overseas contact, James Bond, to facilitate immediate infiltration of the compound. Bourne would then enlist the help of Jack Bauer to take hostage the rogue Senator (presumably whilst the Armed Services Committee is in session), commandeer a helicopter, and fly the tainted Senator to the compound to confront his son and illicit lieutenant.

Once Chloe had uploaded the video of the young wayward lieutenant's taped confession to CTU Los Angeles (via satellite uplink from a laptop at a coffee shop in San Bernadino), they would transmit a live-feed to the Situation Room in the White House where the Joint Chiefs would conveniently be in session in full dress regalia with the POTUS, who would then deploy the finest group of fighting men on the planet to restore order on the Army compound: SEAL Team SIX.

The SEALs arrive post-haste and immediately the problem is solved. Jack Bauer has a meltdown, decapitates the corrupt Senator with a concealed samurai sword, and turns himself in. The young lieutenant craps his pants at the news of his biological benefactor's demise and Jason Bourne escapes to Sri Lanka to take a job as a bar-back to lay low. The SEALs are given under-the-table Navy Crosses and order is restored. Win-win.

Not saying I'm right. That's just what I would do.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2014 4:40 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 04:40:08 -0500

From your previous questions/answers I thought I knew where you were going with this, and then you confirmed it with a couple of your responses.
Whether you agree or disagree with POTUS politically, he is the elected leader and the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, bottom line, period.
I don't agree with all of the decisions that have been made by those appointed over me, but in the end you salute and move out. Those that don't agree should alwasy in my opinion do so behind closed doors. If you are a senior leader who feels as if your advice is not being listened to, then offer you resignation as a form of protest.
I believe that this was a very condesending and back-handed why of coming after supports of POTUS, because if you got them to say what you wanted them to, then you could then throw it back in the face based off of your political ideology.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Dec 14 at 2014 2:20 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 14:20:53 -0500

I read this and GO how is this even a question if this is an issue then a report to the IG. But your write up is so far fetched it seems like a low budget Hollywood script.

Response by Cpl Dennis F. made Dec 14 at 2014 4:09 PM

Cpl Dennis F. — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 16:09:45 -0500

Find an AK in country and at the appropriate high stress moment apply some blue on blue. There are some scum in positions of power, that because of their character and actions, are going to cost many honest hard working innocents their lives. It has happened many times before (RVN fragging). I do not actually condone this as it has led to murderous retribution for petty reasons.....but for the truly dangerously incompetent, after all other avenues have been explored and failed...........

Response by 1SG Frank Boynton made Dec 14 at 2014 8:41 PM

1SG Frank Boynton — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 20:41:47 -0500

You do what you were trained to do. You lead your troops and ensure their safety and other needs are met while you accomplish your mission. You did what you needed to do by reporting it. Don't get involved in Officer politics, your troops will suffer for it.

There are things a Senior NCO can do outside the chain of command that I won't mention here, but Plt. Sgt's run their platoons, not the Plt. Ldr. Usually a shave tail 2nd LT or a very junior 1st Lt. You focus on the mission and let the politics play out.

I was once told that if you stay in the military long enough you will eventually work for an asshole. It's true.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2014 2:08 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 02:08:45 -0500

Call OSI or the inspector general

Response by Sgt Dean LaVigne made Dec 15 at 2014 3:43 AM

Sgt Dean LaVigne — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 03:43:13 -0500

Home invasion, kill him.

Response by 1SG Charles Brown made Dec 15 at 2014 2:16 PM

1SG Charles Brown — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:16:02 -0500

Stand for something or fall for anything. He is wrong, and you need to exercise personal courage to protect and serve the military and its Soldiers best. If you know that it is true, and you allow this man to lead Soldiers in combat, then you are part of the problem. You probably wish you didn't know, but now that you do, you are bound by army values and common sense to stop this fool before he gets Soldiers killed. Do the right thing.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2014 2:21 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:21:45 -0500

I'd say continue to write this story and sell it to Hollywood! I'd pay to see it for sure! Nepotism and corruption at it's finest!!

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Dec 15 at 2014 2:35 PM

Sgt Adam Jennings — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:35:12 -0500

Sounds like the case for a fragging. Can't do anything about him because of his political father and a commanding officer which has no backbone. Frag time!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2014 5:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 17:57:52 -0500

"it also has been your observation that your Platoon Commander is lazy, forgetful, and inept (can't read a map) and he relies heavily on his SNCO's to think for him"

Isn't that darn near every green PL out there?

Response by SGT Edward Thomas made Dec 15 at 2014 7:24 PM

SGT Edward Thomas — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 19:24:52 -0500

"Arrange an accident" down range.

Response by SGT Charles Vernier made Dec 16 at 2014 5:42 AM

SGT Charles Vernier — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 05:42:09 -0500

Movie plot? This sounds like an excerpt from a Nelson DeMille novel (except for the part about not reading a map, which could describe a fair number of LTs). If you have evidence that can be substantiated please feel free to contact your local CID office.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2014 11:48 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:48:11 -0500

Call the IG. After that, should the IG fail...perhaps an anonymous tip to the press, or to your own elected official...preferably an elected official of a different party of the platoon commander's dad.

Response by Cpl Brett Wagner made Dec 16 at 2014 5:30 PM

Cpl Brett Wagner — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 17:30:56 -0500

Capt Jeff Schwager - Well when your unit gets to the combat zone the problem may solve itself.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Dec 17 at 2014 3:56 AM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Wed, 17 Dec 2014 03:56:47 -0500

I had a friend in Vietnam. He told me he had a bad lieutenant, boot lieutenant, take over. You know, the kind who knows everything yet has only been out of OCS for a week. The kind who gets platoons killed. He told me this LT got killed in a friendly fire accident one day on patrol after a few weeks of being in country.

I gathered from the way the story was told, there was no firefight with the enemy that day. My "friend" is a true psychopath.

I'm not advocating anything, just relaying a story told to me that may or may not have some truth to it.

However in this movie storyline, they may want to write in a few black ops guys having a chat with the senator. I'd ask Tom Clancy.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Dec 17 at 2014 3:57 PM

SGT Craig Northacker — Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:57:44 -0500

Was the General murdered with his family, or was his family murdered and he is alive? We all have had versions of the same problem-how do we deal with it? I was in during Viet Nam and instructed by my TAC NCO instructors about having the twin duties of accomplishing your mission and taking care of your troops. Those instructions included how to dispose of problematic personnel endangering the safety of the rest of the unit.

Look at PFC Tyree from the 10th SF Group at Fort Devens in the 1970's. Makes me think twice about what happened with Dr (CPT) McDonald at Ft Bragg also in the 1970's.

Response by SFC Carlton Crider made Dec 19 at 2014 9:54 PM

SFC Carlton Crider — Fri, 19 Dec 2014 21:54:24 -0500

Nice story, I will jump in. When I was in the army you think we (senior NCOs) was worried about a “F” lieutenant. I was commo, there was a couple of occupational specialties you did not want to piss off i.e. supply, commo, mess daddy, and personnel. I was not worried about an officer thinking his shit did not stink, if he wanted his radio or phone to work consistently he better get his ass in line. A senior NCO can mess up your world, you better show some respect if you want to have a successful career.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Jan 9 at 2015 3:21 PM

SGT Michael Glenn — Fri, 09 Jan 2015 15:21:42 -0500

you need to grow a pair and file a complaint with the IG, forging documents for any reason is wrong and is punishable under UCMJ. dad is protecting him??? his dad needs to go with his son. I would file and then request to be transferred to another unit as I know 1st hand that some play the good ole boy game and dont like ship rockers in their units. That never stopped me because I have always had strong beliefs and even stronger morals.

Response by Cpl Andrew Tucker made Jan 22 at 2015 3:40 PM

Cpl Andrew Tucker — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 15:40:07 -0500

If this is not a plot line for a book, can I use it as such? Lol.

Response by MSgt David Heil made Apr 25 at 2015 7:36 PM

MSgt David Heil — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 19:36:10 -0400

This is not a ethical dilemma. This is a "what is the best way to bring this to the attention of the proper person dilemma". Your job is a to protect your people and it is a grave responsibility.

I am not going to assume this Lt. is/was Lt. Calley but a current serving officer. If you have a performance issue with a leader, you must deal with it. You cannot ignore it. You owe the men/women who have put their trust in you to make sure they have effective leadership. You are responsible for their very lives.

And never forget there is a big difference between leadership and management. These words are not interchangeable. Managers manage programs....leaders lead people. Which are you?

David

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Jul 17 at 2018 10:46 PM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Tue, 17 Jul 2018 22:46:18 -0400

Some real Alice-in-Wonderland shit there.
The question is not what would we go do but what are you going to do?
Yes I realize it's an 'Ethical Question' but the ethical answer be according to your ethics.
You are searching for the answer to the LEGAL question, then implement it.

.