Future Soldiers need a reality check!

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 17:12:32 -0400

I have never seen so many Soldiers that think they are "owed" something. The Army needs to break these Soldiers down more in basic and quit treating them like babies and kids. Me personally, I wish the Army was harder on Soldiers in basic and if the new generations can't hack it, then they should be immediately discharged for failure to adapt!

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 8 at 2014 5:16 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 17:16:02 -0400

The Army needs to?  How about their parents?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2014 5:20 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 17:20:40 -0400

Individual responsibility vs entitlement / earned vs owed: that's tough to teach or train. It must be lived. We can highlight those who work hard and take responsibility for themselves and their organization. By celebrating Soldiers who model this approach, those who don't may eventually come around.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Apr 8 at 2014 5:25 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 17:25:13 -0400

SFC Keith, my first thought is that you are the one that needs a reality check.  I assume you are simply stirring the pot here....let me get this right, from your foxhole in Washington, DC you "wish the Army was harder on Soldier"....and "if the 'new generations' can't hack it, then they should be immediately discharged for failure to adapt!" It is now your responsibility to teach, coach and mentor these men & women to ensure they are ready to perform their duty, complain less and do more work to fix the problem.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2014 5:50 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 17:50:26 -0400

SFC Keith, this is one of the few times I'll contribute to this site with a lengthy write-up. I am a few weeks from ETSing so for me, my path as an NCO is over and I am getting ready to sign up for a new job, let me help you out with a couple of things in regards to your post. Firstly, the problem isn't the Soldiers, its you. Its this attitude that somehow because of rank, experiences, or ideas that you are somehow harder then they are. These young privates, are getting ambushed overseas and returning fire. They are taking the fight to accomplish America's interest. This entitlements you speak, yeah its what gets butts in the door because if we didn't have those things people would not be signing up. You think the ones joining are the bottom of the barrel? Take away all the good things they get by joining up and see who comes into the Recruiting NCO's doors trying to get a job. Most people can't join as it is because they aren't the "Captain America" that USAREC now wants. The ones who do come in don't come to the Army for the prestige, the glory and the honor. If you think you signed up for those reasons you should check yourself. Because I guarantee the moment that the 1st and the 15th come around and you see a "0" where a deposit from the military should be you won't be talking about how wonderful it is to serve. They are owed many things, because they signed a contract. A contract isn't slavery, a contract is a two way agreement. It means they give something, they get some things back. They are OWED many things, a lot of things, hell they are OWED more then what they usually get. In return, they give their service. Service, SFC Keith. Attitudes can change, you can be hard on them or you can be super nice. Both ways work. Both ways have a positive and negative effect. You are owed things to for your service, but as a senior NCO your duty is that much higher and that much more responsibility. Failure to Adapt? Maybe you'd like to set that example first.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2014 6:20 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 18:20:15 -0400

SFC Keith, it is our responsibility as Noncommissioned Officers/Leaders to take that new Sergeant and Private under our wing to train, mentor, set them on the right path to success. However their are soldiers within our ranks that are harder to train and mentor then others. That doesn't not mean we give up on them so fast just means we work hard. Those are the soldiers that will make us better leaders. the first step is to set the mood the moment they come into our ranks with counseling and proper understand of the your standards and company policies. If all avenues are existed and the proper paperwork has been done. Then yes you start the paperwork to separate the soldier from the military.

Response by SFC Benjamin Harrison made Apr 8 at 2014 7:39 PM

SFC Benjamin Harrison — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 19:39:15 -0400

From my own experiences, the issue is neither hard enough training during BCT/OSUT/AIT, rather its a culmination of issues.<div> </div><div>1. We have become two politically correct in our civilization as Americans</div><div>2. We have promoted NCOs too quickly to meet the requirements of an ever changing and continually shaping Army.</div><div>3. NCOES requirements have changed over that past 13 years (starting to return to how business was done pre September 11th)</div><div>4. As an NCO Corps we have stopped taking care of our own and are quick to out a knife in each others backs to enhance our own careers; not sure why this is, but something I have noticed over the last 10 years.</div><div>5. Training, NCOs have forgotten how to conduct simple tasks as Sergeants Time Training, Hip Pocket Training, and most importantly NCODP, if we fail do develop NCOs in the ranks, we all become weak.</div><div>6. Adherence to standards. NCOs are the standard bearers, not only do we need to enforce the standards, we need to meet/exceed the standards every time. On the spot corrections do not happen these days. I see Sergeant E-5's and Corporals walk by various violations of regulations daily and not make corrections as though they are afraid to do their jobs, what is worse is when I see NCOs of any rank violate regulations, policies, laws, etc. </div><div> </div><div>In a nut shell, from my view of the battlefield this is where I see the weakness, it has less to do with the "new generation" of Soldier and more to do with the "new generation" of NCO.</div>

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2014 7:49 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 19:49:03 -0400

When I see personnel failing, most the time I see leadership failures.  

Response by SSG Daniel Deiler made Apr 8 at 2014 8:17 PM

SSG Daniel Deiler — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 20:17:57 -0400

I can empathize with SFC Keith as it often feels that we, as leaders, are being stripped of not only the tools employed in the past to correct Soldiers, but also of the respect and trust earned by an NCO. Our tool kit has become smaller due to a handful of individuals who have broken that respect and trust, thus we have to find other methods to bring to the formation to employ upon the "problem" Soldiers. I spent two years as an AIT Instructor and PSG at Ft. Lee and also went to ALC/SLC recently there as well. From my foxhole, I felt that I had to walk on eggshells and constantly cover my backside...Not because I was doing anything wrong, but because instead of the truth, perception was reality. If I tell a Soldier to do something I expect that they do it and do it to standard. Not ask why. Not ask if they can do it later. It's not a discussion. It's a command. A command given by a Non-Commissioned Officer who has Command and/or General Military Authority. It's not a topic of discussion. It's not done to demean a Soldier or for me to get some kind of sick satisfaction. It's done to get the mission accomplished. SFC Keith is right. Some Soldiers do unfortunately come in with a sense of entitlement. They don't understand, because they were never taught apparently, that some things are not just given to you. For some of us, change is hard. Some of our tools have been taken away. We have to adapt to that change and find new tools and methods to reach our young Soldiers to get them to adapt to their chosen profession, even if it does not become a career. 

Response by MSG Martin C. made Apr 8 at 2014 10:40 PM

MSG Martin C. — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 22:40:43 -0400

I can speak for both aspects as I have served as Recruiter,
Drill Sergeant and Drill Sergeant Leader. It is not that Soldiers are getting a
sense of entitlement from being in the Army but it’s a generation aspect of who
they are. As leaders we need to adapt to what drives this newer generation
compering them to the way you and I came up in the Army is not really fair.
Picture this an 18 year old PVT going through basic training right now was 5
years of age when September 11 happened. This generation knows of the atrocities
of that day but is no different from me and you knowing of Desert Storm or
Granada during our PVT years. This generation values different aspects of
society such as community and communication, teamwork instead of individual
drive hence the campaign slogan changing in the last 20 years. “Be all that You
can Be” “Army of One” “Army Strong” as you can see we transition from
individuals achieving their all their potential to a more individual ego
centric slogan of one against the world and to the current one focusing on
teamwork. As far as a reality check for new recruits it is very hard for a
Recruiter to sell the Army as an concept; imagine buying a car based on word of
mouth, TV commercials and the sole word of a recruiter. You cannot test drive
or get actual real reviews from current owners etc. That is what recruiters and
recruits face when deciding to join our Army. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

On the other spectrum blaming Drill Sergeants for the way
Soldiers perform upon arrival to their first duty assignments it’s Ludacris
with all due respect; we get 9 weeks of “Basic Combat Training” not personality
modification school. Think about it most soldiers are between the age of 17-31
years of age, do you really think I can indoctrinate 60 PVTs in 9 weeks? The answers
is no. As Drill Sergeants I attempt to make the best impression of professionalism
by leading from the front and inculcating the 7 Army values but that is just a
start. The full indoctrination process continues throughout AIT or OSAT and first
duty assignment. <o:p></o:p>

I can assure you most of them will pick up their Army traits
from their first line supervisor more than from their DS. What is going to take
to change the mentality of some individuals is going to be engage leadership at
the lowest level Squad leader being the most important in my eyes. As senior
NCOs is our responsibility to train those SSG and SGT and ensure that the
indoctrination process is being fulfilled.<o:p></o:p>

We must not forget what AR 600-20 says about NCOs responsibilities;
our number one job is to train, to teach Army values and ensure good order and discipline.
That is it if we get back to those basics we could fix most of the issues in today’s
Army.<o:p></o:p>

Again this is only my humble opinion with the upmost respect
for all other contributors to this post. <o:p></o:p>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2014 12:29 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 12:29:26 -0400

A lot of NCOs are afraid of the backlash, if any, that can occur when you "upset" a Soldier i.e. complaints, bad ratings, investigations, etc... This fear, real or perceived, has some validity. Many of good careers have been jacked because of it. However, if you have no skeletons in the closet as a leader, you shouldn't have that fear. If your Soldiers know, or even think they know, you haven't done right by them, they will no doubt return fire if fired upon. In the words of the great Ice Cube, "Check yourself before you wreck yourself." With all the briefings and training we mandate, today's Soldiers are way more equipped than yesterday's Soldiers. Clean out your closet and you will have solid ground to stand on when on the carpet. I speak from experience. I was called to the carpet for being too strict and was told I am a stickler for standards which in turn created a hostile work environment. I stood my ground and after some sparring with command, there was nothing to bring down on me. Now this may not be the norm, but it is one example of a positive outcome.

Response by PV2 Christopher Graham made Apr 9 at 2014 7:04 PM

PV2 Christopher Graham — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 19:04:57 -0400

What happened to weeding out the non-hackers? Those who need "stress cards" in order to function. When I was issued a stress card at Hood, I cut the thing into bits. And got quite the verbal ass-kicking in front of the whole Company. If you cannot adapt to Army life, ACAP out and be a florist. We are trained to fight wars in order to protect our nation, not whine about how you're "stressed and can't function with all that noise." The Army should not be like any 9-5 job. It MUST be tougher than that. If a Basic Trainee can't hack it, Chapter 13 them: "Sorry, kid. you did your best, but the Army can't use you." THAT is how you truly build an Army that won't quit. You think the guys in WWII had stress? From what I've been told by MANY WWII Vets, oh, yeah! But, do you think they had stress cards to deal with that stress? HELL NO! Their M1 was their stress card! They were trained to USE the stress to their advantage and demoralize the enemy. That's the principle behind Judo: use your enemy's strength against them. Build up the ones that refuse to quit; the heart of a volunteer is the strongest thing in the world. And the others? Let 'em go. In peace. It does them no good to destroy them while they're already broken. We had a "Private Benjamin" in my Basic Training Company, Delta 1-48. She was totally reliant on mommy's money her whole life. But our Senior Drill Sgt was able to bring her up and teach her to rely on her SELF, not $. We also had a profile rider. He was weeded out. Sometimes, no matter what you do, ya just can't reach some people.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2014 10:13 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 22:13:36 -0400

I agree with the comments of it starts at home. If they are raised right they will be better off. If we as a society begin to better prepare our youth for real responsibility and not asking for handouts every which way we turn we will better ourselves. Until we stop having an entitled society we will have to come up with other way to fine tone our future Soldiers. That being said, there are some Soldiers out there that do not deserve to wear the uniform. Many of them should have never been admitted into the military to begin with, but standards drop as the need to recruit goes up (war happens). We need to start at the source. Recruiters need to find the right people to bring into the military. I am not blaming anyone, but if one recruiter would have looked at a recruit's Facebook page they would have seen jihad rants on his page and then realize that he would not fit well in the Army...... Training and mentorship needed at all levels. We got away from that for the most part and we need to get back there quickly.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2014 9:17 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 21:17:53 -0400

I guess I wasn't clear in my recent post becuase I see there are a lot of people on here that has taken what I said the wrong way. Let me clarify myself, what I meant to say is that the Army has gotten away from doing business the way it used to when I joined. New Soldiers today join and think that they run things. I am the type of person who let's Soldiers know front the start who's in charge. Some Soldiers can't accept that because during basic and AIT they were allowed to do certain things that wasn't allowed of me when I went through basic and AIT (ie..stress card,complaining that someone is yelling at them). I am a firm believer that you don't have to yell and scream to get your point across, but if it comes down to it you have to do what you have to do. It comes a point in time where you have some folks who just can't hack it and that's okay, the military is not for everyone. I appreciate all of your responses. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this site and I am not going to tell you that you are wrong becuase we all can agree to disagree.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2014 9:38 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 21:38:47 -0400

SFC Keith I see you have never been a Drill Sergeant so you
are only speaking from what you remember. Bottom line, its basic combat
training and advanced individual training. I put emphasis on basic! Soldiers
are given the basics!!! When you get that young Soldier it is your duty to
train them. Integrate them into the team and enforce those basic combat skills.
I was just like you until I became a Drill Sergeant for three years. Drill
Sergeants get them to shoot, move and communicate. It’s our duty as Leaders to
fully train and qualify.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2014 9:48 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 21:48:11 -0400

SFC,  BLUF: Our culture creates an expectation of being handed the answer to a problem. Second and third order effects are not generally considered because we are groomed for instant gratification.  We want something in the US, we buy it NOW, go see it NOW, get it NOW. No patience is required, and as a result neither is discipline. I see many comments about it starting at home. I agree with that, it does start at home, but home has more than one meaning. Home is the house they grew up in, the neighborhood, the family and friends they grew up with; but home is also the generation's mindset, and the nation and media's influence. Soldiers must make the decision to be disciplined, and if society doesn't demand it how can they be prepared for it? Some individuals are just not a good fit for the military. Basic and AIT play a role, but in my mind good leadership will demand discipline in the right ways, at the right times. Not everything requires an end of the world response. That said, Soldiers need to know their boundaries. Army regulations are not inherent knowledge, and as I progress in my career I frequently learn things I wish someone had taught me sooner, but because I tend to learn them on my own I believe I remember them more readily.  When a Soldier doesn't know the boundary, a leader should teach them. Some individuals join the Army to have a job, not a profession. Weeding them out is not necessarily simple because they know what they have to lose and do just enough to avoid losing it. Perspective plays a huge part in how you view someone. Soldiers are undisciplined from your perspective, but what  behaviors are you referring to specifically? What is the situation in which you see them being undisciplined? One morning, I left my PT belt at the house and had to come back for it. I always leave early for PT because parking on Kelly Hill is not conveniently distributed. That morning I arrived about 20 minutes later than I normally would and parked in a parking lot I wouldn't normally park in. I was not parked in a leadership parking spot (CO, 1SG, XO), so I believed I was fine.  After I got out of my vehicle and started walking to formation the 1SG of the company whose parking lot I parked in stopped me and proceeded to be disrespectful. I was respectful for a few minutes until he got "smart" when I asked for his rank (since I couldn't see it while he had his high beams in my face and he was asking me to remove my truck from an acceptable parking spot). He had no clue that I was a 1LT, and I never brought it up. Was the discipline issue with me, or with him? He made no effort to find out who I was. He "attacked" me for parking in his company's parking lot 10 minutes before formation.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2014 11:07 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 23:07:37 -0400

One could hypothetically argue that this is a new generation of Soldiers, and they are different. Not necessarily one way better or worse. Some better traits maybe some worse. But I PROMISE that if you rewound to when you joined the Army, some older SFC was saying the same thing about PVT Keith just like they did about PVT Jones (me). One could also argue that the people needing to adapt are the leaders, and if the LEADERS can't adapt, they should be discharged. <div> </div><div>Sure, we SFC bring a lot of experience to the table. But we are on the flip side of our career. The Soldiers of today are going to replace us some day. </div>

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Apr 11 at 2014 10:14 AM

CH (CPT) Heather Davis — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 10:14:30 -0400

SFC Keith: How can you sit at the table if you are part of the menu? It is imperative that Leaders recognize that longevity in our Military requires time, commitment, and remembering where you started from. It is about development, which cannot be rushed. If the troops are not willing and not able you PARENT them! If the troops are willing and not able you teach them! If the troops are willing and able you Mentor them!

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 16 at 2014 1:54 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:54:49 -0400

I keep hearing people complain about "these new Soldiers", but seriously, it's not them. Privates are going to be Privates, but it's the leadership that sets the tone. Right now, things are the way they are because of the zebras (useless animals wearing stripes), not the Privates... .If I had a nickel for every time I've had to correct a senior NCO or Officer for basic uniform, award, or regulatory issues, I'd be debt free... It's disgusting... We complained and moaned about the Army needing to update their regs, but once they do, nobody bothers to read the bloody things anyway... .I can't tell you how often over the years my inside thoughts have centered around the area of "CSM/COL/1SG/ etc... I shouldn't have to explain this to you".. But, I do, because that's our job.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 1:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:57:24 -0400

I've seen this in junior and senior leaders

Response by SGT Keith Boettcher made Jun 9 at 2014 6:27 PM

SGT Keith Boettcher — Mon, 09 Jun 2014 18:27:40 -0400

Well said and stated! I am one of the last old school troopers. My derive started in 1974 to 1983. Then again 2007- present. I have seen a HUGE change in throughout all branches of the military services. All I have to say is from Private E-1 to O-6 Colonels. Who abuse the rank and privileges by whining. Majority that do have rank did not deserve to wear the rank due to inexperience and immaturity.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2014 11:31 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 11:31:12 -0400

I have a relative in BCT right now. From what they tell me it is a world apart from Harmony Church, FB, GA, in the 80s (as I am sure my predecessors could say about my OSUT). Does it sound like they are coddled - a little bit but not overly so. I think that the mindset of "you are leaving here and going to war" is still there and the focus is on attention to detail. In some ways it is tougher than when I went through because they have to carry their weapon everywhere and wear their IBA (we had them out for BRM and the FTX). I think each iteration of BCT learns from the past. We have some really bright kids out there. From what my relative tells me, slackers and whiners were weeded out in the first few weeks and sent packing with an ELS.