Has DoD Dropped Standards Too Low Just to Make Recruiting Goals?

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:21:41 -0400

It seems every time I open a newspaper, news site, webpage, or other electronic publication there is at least one report of some service member being convicted of criminal acts. Talking with my son (who is active duty) and others who still serve, it seems more and more troops are facing disciplinary actions (up to and including general courts martial and punitive discharge). It makes me ask the question have we lowered the standards to much in an attempt to make recruiting goals? Years ago, we gave individuals the option of joining the military or going to prison. That proved disastrous overall and (thankfully) the policy was largely stopped. Now it seems we are returning to those days and waiving all sorts of derogatory history so an individual can be enlisted into the military.

As a secondary question: Has discipline become more of an issue or is it just in Today's interconnected world we see/hear more reporting of criminal activity?

https://www.wate.com/news/former-fort-campbell-medic-sentenced-to-15-years-in-rape-and-murder-of-infant-daughter/

Former Fort Campbell medic sentenced to 15 years in rape and murder of infant daughter

A former Army medic at Fort Campbell will spend the next 15 years behind bars after pleading guilty to the rape and murder of one of his infant twin daughters.

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Sep 12 at 2020 4:25 PM

Lt Col Charlie Brown — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:25:40 -0400

Recruits are like a box of chocolate. You really often don't know what you've got until they are on board. Especially with 18/19 year olds

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2020 4:40 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:40:15 -0400

I wonder when the DOD is going to try to improve manning numbers at the exit door rather than at the entrance door.

Response by MSG Stan Hutchison made Sep 12 at 2020 4:42 PM

MSG Stan Hutchison — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:42:28 -0400

Our military has ways had discipline problems. That is what you get in a free nation.

Response by LTC Eugene Chu made Sep 12 at 2020 4:44 PM

LTC Eugene Chu — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:44:15 -0400

Standards change depending on time period.Vietnam War had Project 100,000 and OIF had waivers for criminal records. During drawdowns, standards for joining are stricter. The requirements change depending on recruiting needs

Response by CPO Rob Ponce made Sep 12 at 2020 4:53 PM

CPO Rob Ponce — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:53:25 -0400

I’ve been witness to good Sailors being asked to leave because they reach HYT or couldn’t keep their weight within standards and watched dirtbags get to stay in. Sounds like not much had changed.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2020 5:50 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 17:50:06 -0400

MEPS determines overall eligibility, based on periodic guidance from above. The waivers and questionable inductees are on the Services, based on need. Supply and demand. Risk/reward. Cost/benefit.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2020 6:04 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 18:04:43 -0400

As others have said standards change to meet recruiting goals. During the Iraq surge years we were waivering felonies and granting commissions to people who didn’t even have degrees. I’d say standards as high as they’ve ever been in the last two decades. I left the Army in 2000 and the misconduct was just as bad. I remember we had a kid get kicked out of the 75th because while on a training exercise in Germany he got drunk and ran a car into some tank barriers. I remember my old PA telling me that when he was in the mechanized infantry in the 90s his squad leader would do lines of coke off the Bradley in the field.
Now we have more prohibitions against certain types of misconduct than we did before. For instance, the Lautenberg Amendment prevents people with domestic violence convictions from carrying guns, so DV is now a permanent disqualifier. Back around 2013 the military added any conviction of sexual assault as a permanent disqualifier as well. Hard to believe, but 10 years ago you could be in the Army if you had a previous sexual assault conviction.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Sep 12 at 2020 6:15 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 18:15:59 -0400

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P I Think this Falls in the Category "I Remember Way Back When During the Great War Category". Romanticism for a Military that Never Was. I Joined Shortly after the Vietnam War, The Vast Majority of My Middle Level PO's were Stoners the Vast Majority of My Chiefs were Alcoholics.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Sep 12 at 2020 6:38 PM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 18:38:53 -0400

Standards to get in and standards to complete basic are different things. The real question is are more folks washing out of basic training than normal?

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Sep 12 at 2020 8:11 PM

CW4 Guy Butler — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 20:11:07 -0400

There’s a correlation between high quality recruits and the unemployment rate:

https://militarypay.defense.gov/Portals/3/Documents/Reports/SR05_Chapter_2.pdf

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/05/20/army-retention-rises-as-economy-slumps-but-recruiting-hasnt-seen-a-boom-yet/

SR05_Chapter_2.pdf

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Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2020 9:12 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 21:12:51 -0400

Everyone wants to believe that their generation had the most bestest super troopers. Reality is there were bad service members "back in the day"and there are bad service members now. In 1985 you didn't just find out through twitter that a SM screwed the pooch in Yongsan. Information moves much faster now. Dirty little secrets were contained a little easier "back in the day".

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Sep 12 at 2020 10:00 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 22:00:52 -0400

I'll point out that there are 1.3 million active duty and another 800,000 reservist, so I would expect that the same kind of things that happen in the rest of society to occur at some regularity. We still recruit human beings.
That said, the standards today are as strict as in any period that I can remember. If anything, there are some standards today that I believe cost the military a lot of good soldiers, both as recruits and as serving soldiers. While I had people that washed out of my OSUT class, today they send people home for some reasons that would have gotten you laughed at in the 80's and 90's.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2020 10:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 22:32:10 -0400

I currently still serve and I find that in my younger days, the punishments for fucking up were extra PT and extra duty. If you did something worse than you received UCMJ action. Nowadays if you try to discipline a troop, they automatically act like they are on the street and have zero respect for authority. Maybe it’s the generation, I’m not sure, but it is unacceptable and the higher ups are afraid to do anything because they don’t want to be labeled in this “Cancel Culture” environment and lose everything they worked to get. The troops are very quick to throw out race cards, sex cards, or any other card they can think of. And Toxic Leadership on the higher levels are very much to blame now too. So yes, I think the standard has been lowered drastically and the promotion system doesn’t look at that either. The shit bag troops fall in to slots and get promoted strictly off of PT and MOS.

Response by MSgt Don VandeBogert made Sep 12 at 2020 11:00 PM

MSgt Don VandeBogert — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 23:00:41 -0400

The standards haven't changed but I think societies has...and not all for the better. Just because someone has a clean record and good ASVAB scores that won't tell you if they will become a good service member. And I've met some dumb/criminal service members. Fortunately not many of them make it into our ranks but a few are bound to eventually become recruits.

V/R
Bogie

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2020 9:54 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Sep 2020 09:54:11 -0400

Every branch has their own standards. What you're likely seeing is:
1. Social media and 24 hour news cycles allow us to see news as it happens when we used to have to wait for the newspaper each day or the nightly news.

2. Possibly you're seeing standards being enforced more hence more people being held accountable.

I know that during the height of OIF/OEF the Army had "moral waivers" and they were waiving even some misdemeanor convictions people had in their past because they needed bodies over there. They were keeping people in who failed UAs I recall, etc. Then when that all wound down, they got rid of those waivers and started to hold people accountable.

I know when it comes to sexual assault - there is a very low conviction rate and low rate of people being court martialed for it. I can't speak to the other things for stats.

Response by SSG Paul Headlee made Sep 14 at 2020 10:36 AM

SSG Paul Headlee — Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:36:51 -0400

It wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Sep 14 at 2020 11:06 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Mon, 14 Sep 2020 23:06:58 -0400

I do not think the standards have changed as much as the ability to enforce them. The way I was treated and needed to be treated in the 90s would not be allowed today. I do not think my shit started to get squared away until I was a junior captain and even during my LT years the way one of my head nurses treated me would get complaints today all over the place to leadership. She made me the nurse and officer I am today and have taken her good parts and carried them forward. From my time as a cadet in JROTC to my enlisted time to my JO time, I deserved everything I got and I think the ability to make a 19yo cry for the shit he did not really being allowed today is part of the problem.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2020 2:07 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Sep 2020 14:07:08 -0400

From what I've seen, a lot of the new recruits that are coming in want to do good. A lot of the time, it's the supervisors not giving much to them in the way of mentorship or development. The new E1-3's then see the grouchiness of those around them and adopt that mentality. The issue is often times the NCOs