Have you heard about the Army using new fragmenting ammunition?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 20:55:04 -0400

"There's a myth that [expanding/fragmenting bullets] are prohibited in international armed conflict, but that doesn't make any sense now," Jackson said.

"After a recent legal review within the Pentagon, the Army can consider adopting "special purpose ammunition," said Richard Jackson, special assistant to the Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War, according to an Army news release. This marks a departure from battlefield practices over a century old.

Jackson told Army Times that while this isn't the first approved use of such bullets in the military, the stance represented "a significant re-interpretation of the legal standard" for ammunition. He also said a lot has changed since the initial movements against the round, especially with the increased prevalence of ASYMMETRIC WARFARE."

The Army is moving closer to adopting a new standard issue pistol. The Army is looking for a more modern sidearm that can use additional accessories. In addition to this the Army wants to move away from the standard ball ammunition and is looking at hollow point and fragmenting ammo types. The R.I.P 9mm is an example of what fragmenting ammunition will look like. This ammo will have much greater destructive force than ammunition previously used for standard issue sidearms. Here's a link to what it looks like and how it performs. http://mic.com/articles/80211/a-new-bullet-has-been-invented-this-is-what-it-looks-like

A New Bullet Has Been Invented. This is What it Looks Like.

It's billed as the "the last round you’ll ever need.”

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Sep 3 at 2015 9:01 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 21:01:19 -0400

No I had not CPT Private RallyPoint Member. May be just the right thing to penetrate enemy body armor.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Sep 3 at 2015 9:07 PM

SN Greg Wright — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 21:07:01 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member That won't violate any Geneva conventions?

Response by Cpl James Waycasie made Sep 3 at 2015 9:19 PM

Cpl James Waycasie — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 21:19:40 -0400

I hadn't heard but it sounds like the right approach to defeating your enemy.

Response by SGT Scott Bell made Sep 3 at 2015 9:38 PM

SGT Scott Bell — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 21:38:17 -0400

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2015 11:03 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 23:03:25 -0400

Interesting round. Interesting that we make rounds strickly to cause more suffering in the intended target. Good Article.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Sep 4 at 2015 12:02 AM

COL Charles Williams — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 00:02:07 -0400

Yes

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Sep 4 at 2015 12:23 AM

Capt Richard I P. — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 00:23:53 -0400

That part of The Hague Convention always bugged me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 12:56 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 00:56:59 -0400

It was announced a while ago that the Army would switch to fragmenting rounds because of better lethality and less overpenetration. I just wonder how long it will take to get them.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Sep 4 at 2015 1:11 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 01:11:45 -0400

People confuse the various Geneva Convention iterations that deal with this. It doesn't. The Hague Convention of 1899 did but the US did not sign off on the article that dealt with expanding bullets. So the reality is that under International Law, the US isn't prohibited, nor ever was from using expanding bullets. There's this notion of "excessive damage" which really means "who the heck knows?" so that's pretty useless. The reality is if we use this stuff for generalized use, the enemy will too and will make the argument that whatever they may have signed in the past is invalid if it puts them at an inherent disadvantage. That won't matter either as the victor will get to write history and conduct war crimes courts.

My sense is every action will have a reaction, hence the US will think very carefully about what gets used on what, how, why, and will likely stay away from major international blow back. Remember we could be legally correct but suffer in the court of world opinion.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Sep 4 at 2015 1:59 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 01:59:01 -0400

I don't know about how Kosher, I know it would be Politically Incorrect but technically sounds like a good idea and as humans we are always looking for better ways to kill one another.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 2:45 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 02:45:32 -0400

They remind me of Black Talons, overrated and gimmicky. I want a round that's going to put you on the ground and stay there not something at 96 grains that will have you dying a slow agonizing death. I will take my chances high velocity .22 cartridges like the Stinger. I can buy a lot more ammo for .22 than RIP ammo at $45 a box for 20 rounds. A .22 is only part of my kit by the way, nothing like a good old fashion .45 with JHP rounds. Anyways I'm going to shoot straight until the threat no longer exists.

Response by SGT William Howell made Sep 4 at 2015 8:36 AM

SGT William Howell — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 08:36:06 -0400

Not sure, but I think in one of those treaties somewhere in there you are supposed to wear a uniform and you can't kill women and children.

Not only do I think we need these, but they should be soaked in pigs blood, by drunk women in shorty shorts, that have their hair uncovered, while giving opinions to men.

Allah Snackbar!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 9:11 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:11:24 -0400

I have seen a ballistics gel in which a .45 fragmenting round had been fired and while there was alot of fragments and damage as the round penetrated, the main part of the round still penetrated 8-10 inches into the gel. I think that would definitely take the fight out of somebody. Overall, a really impressive round, IMO.

Response by SSG Jason Neumann made Sep 4 at 2015 9:13 AM

SSG Jason Neumann — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:13:54 -0400

Negative on the R.I.P. and I do understand it's an example. Why not use Speer Gold Dot or Federal Premium HST? I personally use the Speer Gold Dot in my Kimber .45 and use Remington Golden Saber through my .40's and Hornady Critical Defense through my Kahr P9. I would suggest that we use the current data we already have through LE and Federal Agencies and use what they are using. I would say, the top brands from self defense ammo specialists would be where I would start. Anyways....

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Sep 4 at 2015 9:19 AM

SSG Warren Swan — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:19:07 -0400

"96 grains of pure, unadulterated hate. A desire to inflict suffering. Period." if you break into someone's house, I don't see a bad side to this. You made a decision to break into the house, and the homeowner made a decision to make sure you NEVER forget it. I probably won't buy any, but I do like it.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Sep 4 at 2015 10:54 AM

SSG Richard Reilly — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 10:54:58 -0400

Not sure how legit this is. There are limitations that the Geneva Convention and Hague Treaties put on what kind of ammunition we can use. This seems like it could be cruel to use on the enemy especially if you just wound them.

Response by SA Harold Hansmann made Dec 24 at 2015 12:32 PM

SA Harold Hansmann — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 12:32:01 -0500

Can I get them in 12 gauge for deer hunting?

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Dec 24 at 2015 1:41 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 13:41:56 -0500

This reminds me of a presentation by a Chemical Corps officer who made a presentation to our class at Infantry Officer Candidate School. He opened with the comment that he was one of "those" who killed people by putting them to sleep unlike the combat arms who killed them "humanely" by ripping their bodies apart with shot and shell. Isn't it time we "manned up" and admitted that killing is killing and that the most humane course is to do it quickly and efficiently? If fragmenting rounds serve this purpose, use them...

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Dec 24 at 2015 3:02 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 15:02:41 -0500

Ah the Rest in Peace bullet. If we got of the green tips that would be a huge improvement by itself. The biggest joke I have ever seen is green tips in a combat zone. Green tips should be reserved for training. As for the RIP, I would rather have an assortment of rounds from Underwood, a breaching round, a penetrator, give me some selection rather than one round.

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Dec 24 at 2015 3:08 PM

SSgt Terry P. — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 15:08:07 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member For clearing a building,it sounds like the most effective option.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Dec 24 at 2015 9:34 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 21:34:12 -0500

While it does not necessarily apply to military rounds one of the reasons that most law enforcement and many civilians use fragmenting rounds is that they don't over penetrate. If I shoot you with one I won't also kill the three people behind you. As for "rules of war" etc. I would like to know exactly which enemy that the US has ever engaged that concerned themselves about the Geneva Conventions or any other such rules?

Response by LTC John Shaw made Dec 24 at 2015 9:35 PM

LTC John Shaw — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 21:35:00 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member I don't see us using this as a standard ammo for a long time. I think the whole area of non-lethal needs to be developed as we police and military come under increasing pressure if we do ANY harm. Every weapons discharge in theater requires a book of justification and even with it, expect a GOMR to come your way.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2015 9:02 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Dec 2015 21:02:39 -0500

If the army or any legitimate uniformed service ever adopts the R.I.P. round, then we know someone's made a friend in congress. That round is the biggest load of gimmick horse s*** ever produced. It has no place in any application. War, self defense, hunting, or sport. None of it. It has been proven to lose far too much energy. Literally not even worth making it a fishing weight.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2015 7:14 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 07:14:13 -0500

well ... as long as we can handle it when enemy throw the same thing at us :)

Response by SPC Les Darbison made Mar 26 at 2018 9:58 PM

SPC Les Darbison — Mon, 26 Mar 2018 21:58:40 -0400

I was going to post some BS But CAPT. KEVEN B.s post covers it every will.Aand I agree with it whole heartedly. I love the common sense here on RP.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Mar 26 at 2018 11:58 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Mon, 26 Mar 2018 23:58:45 -0400

I am of the opinion that frag rounds like that open the door for other even worse rounds... coming back at us. There is always a give and take, I for one don't want to see us get hit with the take part.