How do we fix declining discipline?

CPT Christopher F. — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 19:33:32 -0500

In the past few years we've all seen articles in the news about our service members committing acts that are against good order and discipline.

How did we get to this point?

What can we as leaders do to fix it??

http://www.armytimes.com/article/20140214/NEWS/302140019/Photo-airman-kissing-POW-MIA-symbol-causes-uproar

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/8/marine-sergeant-demoted-urinating-dead-taliban-mil/

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Feb 11 at 2014 3:36 AM

LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:36:14 -0500

As long as it fits the disciplinary problem. We want it to be constructive and that they learn from it, not be humiliated by it.

Many times it is a matter of them becoming more mature and experienced over time. I think discipline is very important to keep our organization together and make sure that orders are carried out in the battlefield as soon as it is given.

Instead of just disciplining, coupling it with training exercises, real world situations will help the understand the gravity behind their decisions and the reason we have our system is to keep people alive, and keep our country free. They need to internalize that.

Response by SSG Jason Neumann made Feb 11 at 2014 3:59 AM

SSG Jason Neumann — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:59:51 -0500

Waterboarding......... When they have seen the light, that's when their eyes will open up and wake up to reality, just kidding.  The punishment should fit the crime. They are your children, Soldiers. You must be fair, but stern with them. If you say something , you must mean it and also FOLLOW through with it. They will continue to complain about how picky a certain NCO is and if they mean what they say. We need to go back to pre-9/11 where garrison was about, cleaning until the early morning, GI Parties in the barracks, NCO presence throughout the weekend and so on. That's all I have to say about that right now. <br>

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 7:37 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:37:56 -0500

My opinion on this topic is you have to first look at the discipline of the leaders of those Soldiers. Soldiers will emulate what they see and there are plenty of examples of toxic leaders around and not enough examples of the good leaders. Additionally, there is a generation of younger Soldiers that feel a sense of entitlement. It comes from the how society has affected them. That's not to say they are off the hook, but just to give an understanding of how the problem came to be. We must understand how something happened in order to effectively plan how to correct it in the future.

p.s. I know this is an informal forum, but I think it would better to reference them as Junior Enlisted. We don't call SFC and above upper enlisted. Just food for thought.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 1:26 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:26:21 -0500

I think that Drill Sergeants should still be in the AIT environment in order to maintain strict discipline standards.  The psychological effect of the "Round Brown" for a longer duration of time keep the Soldiers on "edge" and allows the gaining units to mold them into the Soldier that is best suited for the environment that they will function in.  This is NOT encouraging a double standard, but the operational environment of a MEDDAC is different from that of a tank company, therefore sending Soldiers to their initial duty station with the basic training mindset empowers units to produce the model troop that they need.

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Feb 12 at 2014 1:34 PM

CH (CPT) Heather Davis — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:34:14 -0500

<p>SSG Pierce:</p><p><br></p><p>It comes down to mentoring and developing and building a relationship with your subordinates. I have a niece who is an SPC, and she conveys to me how it is easier for others to label her instead of taking the time to build relationships.</p><p><br></p><p>I look at how can we teach professionalism and military bearing when many leaders may belittle our subordinates.</p><p><br></p><p>It is imperative as leaders that we emulate military bearing, we model professionalism. Develop a plan of action and provide the training and build on their strengths to empower a life long learning and development. </p>

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Feb 14 at 2014 8:41 PM

LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 20:41:35 -0500

Unfortunately I do think that we will have some bad apples that come through, and also good folks that just make stupid mistakes. We are human. I don't think having harsh disciplinary rules are the only answer, they may help, but it has more with the culture that is set.<div><br></div><div>If there is a culture of self accountability of peers, healthy respect for superiors and subordinates, then we can work on preventing them before then even happen.</div>

Response by CPT Christopher F. made Feb 15 at 2014 7:39 PM

CPT Christopher F. — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 19:39:33 -0500

The examples I pointed out are extreme and were publicized on a very large scale. What about the everyday things? The smaller infractions that degrade discipline and create a disrespectful culture in the unit?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 7:53 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 19:53:50 -0500

I think this is attributed to the rapid promotions seen during the 10 years or so. A few years ago it wasn't uncommon to see a 20 year old Sergeant who had been in the Army just over 2 years, or a SFC with 7 years in. That's just not enough time to develop the strong base of ethics needed to choose the right course of action in questionable situations. 

Response by SSgt George Brown made Feb 15 at 2014 10:09 PM

SSgt George Brown — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 22:09:30 -0500

I think it comes from the VERY top.  Using a marine corp detail to hold an umbrella for you while they are being poured on, so you can make a partisan speech that could wait until a more appropriate time, is disrespectful of another human being, and shows no respect for the military that keeps you safe.  <br><div>I am sorry if I offend anyone in this, but any superior from NCO-POTUS needs to understand they should be examples not elitists.</div>

Response by CPT Christopher F. made Feb 16 at 2014 3:13 AM

CPT Christopher F. — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 03:13:46 -0500

I think the problem is a little more widespread than we can see at the individual unit levels. This article from MSN shows that the number of enlisted Soldiers receiving misconduct-type discharges are up to over 11,000 last year. <div><br></div><div>This article also points to numbers that indicate that three times as many Officers are being separated due to conduct, up to 387 last year as opposed to only 119 in 2010.</div><div><br></div><div>Does this not show that we are suffering from an erosion of standards? For over a decade the Army's main focus has been to "close with, and destroy the enemy", and the Army has lost focus on character building for the sake of building combat power.</div><div><br></div><div>Or are these misconduct discharges and the high ranking military scandals a symptom of a "rock star" complex in the military today? A misconception that a soldier or a leader fighting (or has fought) on the front lines of the war is in some way holy or untouchable?</div><div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="http://newsbcpcol.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/15/7982136ccafaeb6d2dc8ce811e88c0/_h441_w512_m2_bwhite.jpg"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a target="_blank" href="http://news.msn.com/us/misconduct-forces-more-soldiers-out">Misconduct forces more soldiers out</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">The number of enlisted soldiers forced out of the Army for drugs, alcohol, crimes and other misconduct has more than tripled in the past three years.</div></div><div style="clear:both"></div><div class="pta-box-hide"><i class="icon-remove"></i></div></div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2014 4:20 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Feb 2014 04:20:27 -0500

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</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt; tab-stops: 172.15pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Calibri">There are many things at the unit
level that degrade good order and discipline. But I would reserve judgment on
the Junior Soldiers and look at the issue as a whole. While I agree that the
younger crop come from the “trophy for everyone” culture, they neither created
nor enforce that standard, but are instead just assimilating to the world as
they know it. The same is to be said of the Military. Just the other day while
standing outside of our bay, me and the three Soldiers saluted an Officer. At
first the officer did not even acknowledge we were there, when he did he
returned the salute while holding his glasses. Needless to say the Junior
Soldiers did not view this “leader” in a favorable light. Another example, on
my installation, a Battalion had 5 DUI’s, four of which were committed by SSG
and above one of those being a MSG, all retained their rank. This is what our
Junior Soldiers have to look up to. Obviously, this is not saying every SNCO or
officer behaves this way, but when the leadership fails to uphold the standard,
how can we fault the subordinate for following in suit. Much like the “trophy
for everyone” culture, we maintain the “do as I say, not as I do” culture and
then look for someone to blame for the breakdown of discipline. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span></font></font></font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

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</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt; tab-stops: 172.15pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Calibri">The fix to this is easy, be
leaders and hold other leaders just as accountable as we expect subordinates to
be. </font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt; tab-stops: 172.15pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Calibri">Just now, not a moment ago, I
looked out of my door and saw a SFC carrying his weapon on his back; the
standard is to carry at the low ready. When I attempted to make the on the spot
correction I was told to check down not up…This my friends is the breakdown of
good order and discipline in our Army.</font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

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Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2014 12:25 AM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 00:25:13 -0500

I think this reflects an increase in reporting of inappropriate behavior more than an increase in the behavior itself. The number and rank of leaders during the early war who conducted misconduct ranging from inappropriate interrogation techniques, inappropriate relationships, etc indicates that this is not a new phenomenon that has popped up late in the war. In 2004, I was personally acquainted with a married CSM who was involved with his SFC S1 NCOIC. In 2005, I became aware of a Battalion CDR who maintained a toxic command climate, verbally abusive of his subordinates to the point that days would go by where no one would speak in his TOC. These things aren't new.

The Army Values, as a slogan-set, are insufficient to produce the cultural change necessary to weed out bad behavior. Too much of the 'if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin' attitude exists in the military; too much winning for its own sake, regardless of how you win. There are those who would argue that we want our military to be 'win at all costs, go getters, willing to do anything for victory'. But if you're willing to do anything for our nation, what restrains you from doing anything to win in your own life? What prevents you from doing what you can rationalize as being 'good for the nation'?

As a 'professional' military, we are entrusted with the 'ethical application of land combat power to fight and win our nation's wars'. But we can't do that without a strong ethical foundation. The fact that we have increased reporting is a good sign. The fact that so many leaders are getting busted out about it, too, is a good sign. But now the hard work begins. We have to change all of those SGTs who have grown up in an Army knowing nothing but toxic command climates and inappropriate relationships from senior leaders and other criminal and inappropriate behavior.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2014 11:47 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 11:47:45 -0500

I am speaking on behalf of other 35P soldiers:

By the time we leave TRADOC some of us have been in the Army for near 3 years before we get to our duty station. That entire time has been consumed academically with minimal military interaction. With that said, I can almost guarantee you that once we arrive at our duty station, we are less disciplined than others who have AIT of a few months with Drills present. For that I apologize, but we are a product of our environment.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2014 3:17 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Mar 2014 15:17:09 -0400

When we receive new Soldiers, it is our job as NCO's to not only make sure they are sponsored and welcomed to the unit, but to ensure they know what is expected of them.  That comes not only with the reception and integration counseling, but also in immediately correcting them when they don't go to parade rest, or lack other basic forms of courtesy, etc.  What we CAN'T control is how they come to us, or what they were taught in IET or AIT.  That is in the PAST.  What we CAN control is how they are integrated, and what our expectations are.  Make it crystal clear for them. Ensure your Junior enlisted Soldiers are also setting the example for them.  So if we simply say, "that Soldier came to us screwed up, they lack discipline", that's an excuse.  It's our job to nip it in the bud, correct it quickly, get them back on the right track.  

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 3:04 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Mar 2014 15:04:16 -0400

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</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Calibri">I think I know where this question is coming from, but I don’t
know that discipline is at a low. The army is an evolving machine, and with
that we as leaders must evolve too. Now, especially, the Army is making a lot
of changes in a lot of aspects. I think what we are seeing is a total Army
learning curve. I remember when I first came in and a "smoke session"
was how a leader fixed everything, now not so much. I don’t think its bad to
get away from it, but I dont think it should go away all together either. I
hear a lot of belly aching about how the Army is getting soft. I don’t think it
is. I think the Army is making leaders think more, and the days of the instant
feedback are slowly fading away. We have to be more like parents to soldiers,
and less like Drill Sergeants. I don’t say that as babying them, but in the
respect that we must take responsibility for them, good and bad, and coach
teach and mentor. All of these are things that we are suppose to be doing, but
making Joe do 80 pushups was a lot easier. So simply I don’t think that discipline
is at a low, I think the Army is in the middle of evolution and it is a painful
change.</font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

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Response by MSG Jose Colon made Mar 23 at 2014 3:14 PM

MSG Jose Colon — Sun, 23 Mar 2014 15:14:15 -0400

I believe that the Army has being at an old time low since 1776. Every generation believes that the old days were better.

Parents decry their kids behavior, but, many forget that they did what they charge their kids of doing. The problem is that as communication improves, and people are given the opportunity to think for themselves, those who are not used to be questioned and have a hard time expressing their rational, will have a harder time with their subordinates independence of thought.

Got it, in life and death situations, you don't have time to explain why; but if you have done a good job at leading, in combat you will not need to explain yourself unless your directions are lacking.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 6:56 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:56:05 -0400

I completely agree with you about there being a lack of discipline. I also think it is the lack of pride causing shortcomings in the discipline and military bearing as well as leadership. While recently serving as a Recruiter in central California, I came across a lot of kids who entertained the idea of joining the Army but were not totally invested in the idea. I made it a point to ensure that each Soldier I added to our ranks knew what they were getting themselves into. I made sure that these young men and women joined the Army because they WANTED to be a part of the next generation of our Army Leaders. The surge in troops at the beginning of the war opened the floodgates. Through those floodgates came a ton of motivated and capable leaders the Army embraced and trained. Also, a plethora of Soldiers joining for the wrong reasons with little pride in Service to Country, or the Army for that matter, also squeezed in. As we draw down on the number of troops and raise the standards for new Soldiers to join I believe we can start to reshape our NCO Corps from the ground up. Fixing the NCO Corps is the first step in solving this issue. Not everyone wants to change when they're in a position of Leadership, but changing the way a Leader is mentored into their future roll can only add to our future success.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 23 at 2014 8:19 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sun, 23 Mar 2014 20:19:47 -0400

I'd say there's plenty of proof that discipline is at least an issue...

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Mar 24 at 2014 9:24 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 09:24:32 -0400

Okay so this might catch me some down votes but...

Over the past few weeks, there has been a growing trend of more and more posts on here talking about the lack of discipline in the service. The posts discuss Soldiers doing or not doing whatever and the most repeated line is "new Soldiers aren't disciplined". Take a second, and do some reflective thinking. You can not sit there and tell me that you never did anything that others would view as undisciplined. You cannot expect a service member to not let lose and have fun and yes, sometimes do it in their uniforms. How many of us coming up in the ranks, would get off work and go to the Day Room in the barracks and just sit and watch TV, shoot some pool, have a few drinks and just enjoy a good time with those with us? What do you want from Service members? To not have some sort of way to release the stress they are under? If that be the case, you would have a bigger problem on your hands. People, human people, need time and place to blow off steam. Are some service members taking things too far? Of course they are however, you can't sit here and nail every service member to the wall for taking time to just be human. You are dealing with 18, 19, 20 year old kids who are trying to find their place in things. This is never going to end. It's called growing up.

By the way, I believe SGT Dean is correct, this picture appears to be from Army's biannual Network Integration Evaluation. So I would say they are acting professionally because they are doing what they are asked to do, test new gear to assist leaders in training the force.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 9:53 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 09:53:56 -0400

<p>First off - in response to the above photo, that picture was taken out at NTC and is the comms platform being tested as part of the land warrior network - those joes are NOT goofing off on their iPhones.</p><p> </p><p>Second - WRT to standards and discipline being at an all time low, it is a matter of perspective.  I would submit that if you were to look at my team in IZ you would swear they were a bunch of hooligans yet every one of them had their gear straight and their respect for the CofC was tight.  Sure, their boots were a mess (but they had clean socks on at least 3x per day) and their hair and facial hair was iffy but on a crappy FOB with nothing but a pair of old semi-functional shears/clippers it's all they could do.  Put them up against a  bad guy and they'd run circles around them.</p><p> </p><p>Garrison standards have slipped - I'll give you that.  Joe has gotten too used to what some percieve as the "lax" standards in combat theaters.  That is the beauty of our Army - ADAPTABILITY.  This is where NCOs and Officers make the difference.  Reminiding Soldiers that there is a time and a place for "muddy boots" and such.  Back in garrison we are the face of the Army every day.  Smart looking uniforms, clean shave with tight hair cuts and MANNERS will remind folks that we are adaptable.  It also remindes mom and dad that the Army (via NCOs and Officers) will take care of their sons and daughters.</p><p> </p><p>Low standards?  No, not at all - transitioning standards - YES.  We'll get through this.  If anything in some areas your Soldier will be better than he was before he left garrison.  His PMCS will be more dilligent because he's seen first hand what happens when gear breaks when you most need it.  Weapons maintenance - bet those rifles are figuratively shining in those arms rooms because Joe knows what a little bit of dust, debris, and rust can do - especially when the time counts.  Cleanliness - a nasty FOB leads to nasty bugs and diseases.  When PVT Snuffy is puking his guts up because he ate his MRE before washing his hands - he'll wash before going into the chow hall.  12+ years of combat have made our Soldiers more aware of the need for maintenance, rehersals, etc.  An askew uniform is an easy thing to fix.</p>

Response by SPC David Wyckoff made Mar 24 at 2014 10:08 AM

SPC David Wyckoff — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:08:47 -0400

<P>I think that the percieved lack of discipline might be attributed, in a small part, to the lack of evolution on the part of the leader, or more importantly how we teach our leaders in the military. Social media, the internet and immediate information sources are somewhat new. I know the internet has been around a long time, but the way we can instantly access knowledge at the tips of our fingers on a smartphone is barely a decade old. I can remember myspace, but it seems like a distant memory. There are apps used now to instantly share news, both personal and otherwise.</P>
<P><BR>The junior enlisted that are in right now have never known a world with no internet. They are faster and smarter with technology. They have never known a world without smart phones. Their interaction and social connection is grounded in both those things. We can't make them disappear so we have to evolve as leaders. We have to learn how to use them responsibly and be able to teach the junior enlisted how to use them responsibly. If we want to remain relevant we are going to have to get smarter and faster than they are. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>When my kids were teenagers (early 2000's) I wanted to know what they were seeing and listening to. I watched the tv shows they watched, I listened to the music they listened to. I didn't do this because I liked the same stuff that appealed to them. I did it so that I could understand what their world looked like outside our house.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>They already understood that there was no privacy in my house. If i wanted to search their rooms, emails, texts or anything at any time, I could and would. To do this I had to learn how to get to emails and texts. I had to learn how to get into email accounts and unlock phones. I had to evolve as a parent. It shocked them when I knew what they were emailing and would confront them with it. They realized that not only did I know what they were up to, I knew how to find out. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>I used that as an example. As SGT B. said, sometimes a good smoke session is in order, but sometimes being two steps ahead makes more of an impact. The typical Friday safety briefing that says don't do stupid stuff on facebook, isn't going to cut it anymore. Using the POW flag or the coffin incident or any other screw up to get your point across is a good start. They have to understand the rippling and long lasting consequences. Those images are permanent now. No matter what, someone has them on a computer and repost them at any time. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Yes, I do think leaders should use google, bing, reddit, or what ever else they have to use to stay on top of things. As SGT Dean said, we don't carry the rules around any more. We aren't force to memorize them. Maybe we should be. Maybe that will make an impression. But being able to show a junior enlisted in black and white that yes, they do have to abide by the regs and that you know how to find those regs and use them can be a powerful tool.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>As leaders we need to teach them the importance of traditions and carry on the old ways of doing things to some extent. But I also think we need to learn the new way of doing things and meld them together.</P>

Response by SPC Geoffrey Jenkins made Apr 3 at 2014 9:20 AM

SPC Geoffrey Jenkins — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 09:20:06 -0400

Yes I do believe the discipline has suffered tremendously during bootcamp training.When I went to bootcamp in 1982 there were no timeouts when a soldier was being disciplined .Sure the drill instructor would smoke you with physical punishment,hell he might even hit you(it happened to me because I was out of line.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2014 3:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 15:32:16 -0400

I don't think it is simply a lack of discipline. I think a
lot of it has to do with the ease with which somebody can "express
themselves." Social media is rampant now, and a lot of service members
(Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and Airmen alike) share themselves just like
civilians do. The major issue is they aren't taking into account that they are
supposed to represent something bigger than themselves.

I am sure that in the days before Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, etc.
there were a lot of service members doing the same things that those of today
are, but they were never caught because we didn't have a smartphone with a
camera to capture those moments and instantaneously upload them to the internet
for everyone to see.

I am by no means an “old timer,” but I do remember the days
of uniform inspections every Motorpool Monday to ensure your boots were shined
and BDUs were pressed. I remember a time of pride in the Military. Yes, we have
slipped it would seem, but I think a lot of it comes down to NCOs not getting
in the proverbial weeds and stopping this nonsense before it starts. If you see
somebody, anybody, who does not care, start doing the appropriate paperwork to
get that person out. The simple fact of the matter is as a collective, the US
Military is getting a bad name. All these SHARP cases going national, the
Military Social Media Idiots, all of it… stop it before it starts.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2014 5:49 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Jun 2014 17:49:41 -0400

So after reading the comments here, it seems that many of the opinions formed here are drawn among the lines of where our ranks lie. I really think this is a horrible way to think. I have some advice among those lines, how about those of us doing the right thing vs. those who choose or are unable to live to the standard?
Also, Officers, you are the examples for many people, in private and public. There will be much more uproar if a Major has disciplinary action taken against them than a junior enlisted member. Is it fair, no. Is it the reality, absolutely. Act accordingly.
NCOs, you are the "backbone" of the military. Perhaps it is time to backbone up and enforce the standard among everyone in the military, not just among subordinates. A backbone is a backbone regardless of rank. Act accordingly
Junior Enlisted, the standards are the standards, regardless of what PNN says they heard SSG so and so did last week. Act accordingly.
I hope I offended someone with these remarks, because that means you'll think about them.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2014 11:10 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Jul 2014 11:10:22 -0400

I am pretty sure it's been touched on in here already, but two words...inter webs. There has been plenty of discipline issues in the military since the days when Staff Sergeants actually carried STAFFS to beat people back into line when we used mass formations and muskets. The CSM's out there (the majority of them) probably have a story in their history of when they were a private or a specialist where they did something (whether they were caught or not) absolutely stupid and undisciplined. I have heard stories from some of the most senior NCO's in the Army about playing beer can hockey in their newly shined barracks hallway...riding the buffer to see if you could hold on for 8 seconds, sneaking into the 1SG's office to do something heinous to his coffee mug (and maybe even take a photo of the event with a poloroid camera). The difference between then and now...instant capture of the event on the internet. It's a new era of stupidity that stacks on top of the long and proud history of doing stupid s#!+ when soldiers have a lot of spare time. Frankly, if you would have asked the CSM's (when they were privates) to do the things we ask our young Soldiers to do now with the complexities in the world...some of them wouldn't have made it to where they are today. It's not declining. The opportunity to show your stupid tricks and antics to the world has.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 9:25 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 09:25:41 -0500

My guess is that spending the last 15 years at war has conditioned us to be more concerned with combat capability than with buttoning pockets.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 10:06 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 10:06:23 -0500

CPT Christopher F. , I think the problem is the adjustment from a war footing back to a garrison footing. We do things in theater that we normally wouldn't have done on 09 SEP 2001.

We have a little stubble in the field or in theater, we might have our boots unbloused; out by ourselves on a COP or a Security Compound, we might even have our hands in our pockets or junior enlisted/junior officers may have a little more familiararity with their johnnies and superiors than comfortable... I think it will get back to what it once was, it will just take time.

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Jul 11 at 2017 2:53 PM

SSgt Boyd Welch — Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:53:14 -0400

When I entered the military in 1971, I was coming from working on a farm where a common theme was that if we don't work, we don't eat. There was no such thing as disrespect in our home or you got worked harder and longer hours. The military was a natural extension to me and others like me with the same background. The military just didn't have the same amount of physical work that we were used to. I respected my military leaders because, I couldn't fathom an alternative. I saw some that tried and they wound up with a bus ticket home.
Today, our succeeding generations have too many viable alternatives to the military so they don't bring the same mind set. I might have gotten chewed out by my NCOs for screwing up but those same NCOs were the first to pat me on the back when I mastered a skill. I didn't always agree with them but they were my leaders and they got my respect. I don't think as many parents teach that anymore and definitely not self discipline.

Response by PFC Robert Rice made Oct 1 at 2017 2:47 PM

PFC Robert Rice — Sun, 01 Oct 2017 14:47:33 -0400

Go back to the basics! Take the gloves off of your Drill Sergeants and NCO's and allow them to do their jobs. This new generation of soldiers need to feel the pain of the past. What I mean Is they need to be subjected to the same discipline and training that we went through. I don't know if It's true or not but I've heard rumors of soldiers having stress cards in Basic. Come on! Are you kidding me? You are there to train for war. Your ass Is supposed to be stressed and tested. Are you going to hold up your stress card In combat and expect your enemy to give you a time out? I don't think so!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 8 at 2021 4:12 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 08 Aug 2021 16:12:13 -0400

When I took over units, the first thing I did was create a culture of values and expectations. I did not demand much, so the NCOs had buy in. Ensure values govern behavior, NCOs provide caring leadership, and the NCOs enforce standards. The key was NCOs leading the soldiers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2021 7:29 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Aug 2021 19:29:22 -0400

All it takes is leadership. You cant talk values if you don't live them yourself.

Response by SFC Randy Hellenbrand made Aug 8 at 2021 9:54 PM

SFC Randy Hellenbrand — Sun, 08 Aug 2021 21:54:41 -0400

Trouble with the NCOs. Extra duty was what I did and in a few cases, I know I made some guys not get promoted and a few enlistment bars. You MUST be hard to start with. You can't be nice and later get tuff.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2021 1:48 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Aug 2021 01:48:57 -0400

IMHO CPT Christopher F. I believe politics need to stop being injected into the military along with social experiments. While I know there are many who have more TIS than me, but that massive amount of changes in discipline start at the top when politicans force their views into the military and higher ups get visits from the good idea fairy and juat jump on stuff before thoroughly researching. So back to your main question, back to basics. F**k your feelings, and f**k what you think. This is the military, not the girl scouts and it needs to start being treated as such.