How do you define AND identify a toxic leader?

2013-11-20T14:06:58-05:00

Toxic Leadership! We all know that it exists within our ranks in the military....branch is immaterial.

What do we as Soldiers/Airmen/Sailors/Marines/Guardsmen/Reservists and Leaders do to combat this growing trend (which isn't a good one, BTW)???

How do you define AND identify a toxic leader???

Response by SSG Mark Jordan made Oct 30 at 2013 4:43 PM

2013-10-30T16:43:39-04:00

Toxic leadership needs to be weeded out at all coasts. I will give an example I won't give his name had a CSM talk about standards. This person got drunk at a party and punched an officer. Then kicked him while he was down. When CID was done with this they found that he was somehow getting away with using the government credit card to make car payments. He stood in front of a brigade formation throwing chairs and stuff like he was crazy. If someone got in trouble in the brigade you had to come in with your chain of command officers to. A timeline of when where why this happen. It wasn't to teach it was done to humiliate the person and it was done three groups one lower enlisted the all NCOS and last officers.

would you know that when he messed up then they stopped public things like that.

not long after he was arrested after the punching the officer. He got a DUI. The Brigade Commander did not relive him after the first thing. After the DUI that command got a general letter reprimand from the post commander. This guy was a complete over bearing toxic leader. There was no mentoring just bulling. I am shocked he even rose through the ranks. At that rank you need to be way more professional dealing with people . There should never feel like to standards. A person

should never be throwing chairs at people no matter who they are what there dam rank is.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Oct 30 at 2013 5:40 PM

2013-10-30T17:40:27-04:00

Toxic leadership should be relieved and their record annotated, preventing them from holding leadership positions in the future. Charges should only be filed in instances where the leadership contributes significantly towards the death of a Soldier in their command.

What is toxic leadership: Zero tolerance, demanding results with little or no guidance, holding subordinates responsible for execution based on your decisions, refusing to accept responsibility, demanding entitlements neither warranted or deserved. Humiliating subordinates, non-stop criticism... The list of course could go on, but I think the core is one of institutionalized Narcissism. Some leaders simply go to far when it comes to "Never accept defeat" in that they can not accept their contribution to failure and move forward based on lessons learned.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Oct 30 at 2013 7:40 PM

2013-10-30T19:40:37-04:00

I have experienced toxic leadership in several environments. The leaders involved (a term used loosely in this context) didn't lead. They bullied. They did not rely on superior technical skills, charisma, solid work ethic and a well defined moral compass to motivate subordinates. Those characteristics weren't available to these people.

They instead relied on fear and intimidation going out of their way to demean the crew and exert their power simply through force of their higher pay grade. They routinely failed to adhere to the service's core values and then intentionally inflicted difficulty on members who did hold fast to the required organizational standards. It was not enough that they lacked the ability or desire to do what should have been done, they worked diligently to make life nearly impossible for those service members who held themselves to a higher standard.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2013 12:06 AM

2013-10-31T00:06:01-04:00

Toxic leadership is a bit oxymoronic if you ask me, because if something is toxic then how could it be considered leadership. Or at least I would have thought that before I joined the military. Toxic leadership is merely a byproduct of how we promote and assign positions. When you go to a board now they ask you a bunch of questions and most of the time if you can read and recall what you read nearly verbatim then you can get promoted at least through E4 to E6. Then the rest of the time do well enough at executing missions, keep your nose halfway clean or don't get caught doing something stupid you can get promoted after enough time. Time and time again I have seen the tool we as soldiers are expected to utilize, the "command climate survey" and "global assessment tool" get tossed aside or laughed at. Now I have seen my fair share of soldiers write something stupid on a survey and it get overloooked. But I was taught by one of the few good leaders I have had since being in the military that when ever you pose or complain about a problem you had better be ready with a solution. Which is something I take pride in doing when filling out a survey. I won't complain unless I have a legitimate and practical solution. Having it laughed at is detrimentally demoralizing. Other times having a NCO tell you specifically that they do not care about what orders you were given by a WO1 that I was expected to execute and do what I was told. Or being told that after a convoy speed was put out and going that speed that you are going to fast for the "elements" when it was a bright and shiny day just because they need to yell at someone because a superior officer felt that I was speeding rather than to take responsibility as the convoy commander. For me the list of examples goes on and on and these are just the recent ones. Until we look at the way we promote people and actually get to know those we are promoting then we will continue to have toxic leaders. The only way to sift them out is to actually talk to them and their soldiers in a candid manner. Stop promoting based on the ability to answer questions and actually go out and test the mettle of the soldier who wants promoting. See the results and review what happened. Nothing shows off leadership capabilities than putting that soldier into the position they want to be promoted into and watching them take charge and lead. As for the soldier abuse part, I think that is truly reserved for the worst cases of toxic leadership. I think I have said enough at this point.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2013 3:22 PM

2013-11-01T15:22:38-04:00

For me its a leader who prioritizes friendships over rules and regulations, who isn't versed on anything pertaining to the Soldier' lives or welfare. He/She has only their "circle" they're concerned with. The offer no growth potential, NO mentorship. They are lazy and doesn't contemplate a proactive approach to ANYTHING. They are a reactive leader, which to me is disgusting and disappointing. The one who talks about "taking care of the Soldiers", but walks right past the Soldiers in the hallway without even speaking to them. Dishonest, lacks integrity, and request that the people under his company "cheat" for him.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2013 3:33 PM

2013-11-01T15:33:58-04:00

MSG Shepherd, perhaps not abuse, but moreso neglect in my opinion. It's listed on our NCOERs as part of what we're eval'd for. If you have failed at this mission it should be listed so that you can work on your leadership skills/approach.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2013 3:57 PM

2013-11-01T15:57:32-04:00

Just as there are many reasons why an apple can be bad, there are just as many reason why you could put the term "toxic" on a leader.

From my own experience, something as simple as a PSG calling Soldiers by their first name, have very serious side effects and I would consider a "toxic leader". Was this Soldier abuse? Not physical, did it "mentally scar" them? Perhaps some of them, their perception of the Army is now tainted, and they spread that down the line.

Just as a bad apple in a basket will eventually make the others bad, so as with a leader doing something so simple as calling a Soldier by their first name can ruin a platoon.

So to answer your question MSG, not in every case.

But if that leader has now created an atmosphere so lax, that standard have gone out the window and Soldiers end up hurt or killed on the battlefield...then perhaps Soldier abuse is not out of the question.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2013 2:18 PM

2013-11-20T14:18:33-05:00

I have seen this in the National Guard. I don't think a lot of leaders do this on purpose. I have found that a lot of leaders don't know what they are really doing and then they don't know what right looks like. They simple roll with it. I also blame their leadership for letting them continue in such a fashion. I have learned much from being mentored. Mentoring soldiers has become a lost art in the army. I can't stand leaders that just think you will figure it out. That is why they often face challenges in their leadership. If you are in such a unit. BE THE CHANGE. I have had one PL that was not suitable for his position and would have been a disaster if he would have been in combat. To remedy this I choose to become a PL myself to lead soldiers. I knew what soldiers needed in leadership from being a NCO for about 8 years and now I am that officer that enables the NCOs and steps out of their way. I also challenge my NCOs to develop the next generation of leaders that are coming up. I always remind them that are great NCOs and I thank them but I also remind that they will not always be that squad leader or team leader. That SPC or PVT will be your legacy when you leave.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2013 3:29 PM

2013-11-21T15:29:39-05:00

I think that a major difference between a "bad" leader and a "toxic" leader is one of character and training. People emulate what they know and attain the standards that are enforced, generally speaking. Toxic leaders have poor character and need to be removed, because training is most likely not going to fix the problem. Bad leaders or poor leaders with the desire or who can be influenced to desire to change have a shot at becoming at least a standard leader. There is a learning curve for leadership on the officer side, while NCOs have years of experience to work on their leadership abilities. That is no excuse for officers. One huge thing that I have seen is that toxic/bad leadership emphasizes POSITION and TITLE over true leadership/inspiration/example-setting. A great leader, in my opinion, is a SERVANT leader, who does not consider himself better than others, and leads by example. Unfortunately, people can pass the APFT and qualify with a rifle, but they lack basic character, and they selfishly use others instead of lifting them up.

Response by SPC Dave St.Andrew made Nov 21 at 2013 7:45 PM

2013-11-21T19:45:33-05:00

I have seen a few toxic leaders in my short time in the Army, I currently have one NCO that has been heard saying that he is on a "warpath" to try to get me chaptered some way or another just because he doesn't like me. No reason, just doesn't like me.

Response by SPC Tanya G. made Nov 21 at 2013 9:05 PM

2013-11-21T21:05:07-05:00

In the time that I served from Basic to ETS I have exemplary leaders...I would be able to spot a toxic one from a mile away...Their example has helped me in the civilian world too..

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Nov 22 at 2013 12:17 AM

2013-11-22T00:17:19-05:00

The difference between a Toxic leader and a bad leader is their ability to accept professional, constructive criticism. A bad leader can improve with mentorship and guidance regardless of where the advice comes from. A toxic leader will just fuck you for telling them they aren't walking on water.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 12:41 AM

2013-11-22T00:41:09-05:00

I remember being a student leader and my leader wanted to gig everyone who smoked a certain brand of cigarettes. I could have gone along with him and be wrong, or respectfully decline and risk a violent confrontation. Although minor, this represents the right thing and being a bully.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 5:10 AM

2013-11-25T05:10:51-05:00

I once found a really great resource on toxic leadership. It is called "toxic leadership in the Army" by Colonel Denise F. Williams. Just search toxic leadership army. It is a really great read. It taps into all kinds of toxic leadership styles that you wouldn't even think of. Possibly some you do yourself you didn't even realize. You always get those people that relate toxic leader to the guy that yells and screams all the time and is a "hard a$$". But being the guy that is friends with all the junior soldiers is a toxic leader. The guy who does all the work cause he doesn't want to be mean and make others do it is a toxic leader. I'm telling you; read this and it will open yours eyes to a whole slew of toxic leadership you had never heard of.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 5 at 2013 12:53 PM

2013-12-05T12:53:13-05:00

A poor leader is a poor leader, I don't think that definition needs clarifying. Now a "toxic" leader is a poor leader whose actions or inactions cause residual effects throughout the unit. The poor leader to whom you can trace a lot of your woes. That's where the term "toxic leader" came from, it replies to the spreading effect, ie toxic. It's not a blanket term for any bad leader. It's for the poor leader whose dirtbaggery is spreading, causing residual effects throughout the unit.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Dec 5 at 2013 2:34 PM

2013-12-05T14:34:24-05:00

1. Leadership that causes unit and Soldier performance and moral to deteriorate beyond reasonable expectations for the environment.
2. Yes
3. 4187 requesting reassignment
4a. If a peer, or subordinate, provide mentorship and guidance. If accepted, all good, if not, move immediately up the chain of command until you find a receptive ear. Do not wait, do not sleep on it. Because immediately following your "confrontation" you will be slandered and you will become suspect from libelous allegations that will impact your career and it will become a "he said, he said" investigation. One of you will need to leave the unit immediately.
4b. If a superior, consult with a mentor. They can broach the subject and determine if your situation can be corrected or if you need to find an alternative course of action, including 4187 and re-assignment.
5. Is the toxicity real or a just a symptom of the Soldier's narcissism/paranoia? It is possible for a junior to successfully create an air of persecution when attitudes and actions directed at him are perfectly justified. Make sure you know the difference.

Response by MAJ Gregory M. made Dec 5 at 2013 2:40 PM

2013-12-05T14:40:44-05:00

I had a battalion commander reprimanded for troop abuse. The sad thing it was going on for years, and was only dealt with when it happened in front of OCs during a JRTC rotation.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2013 9:24 AM

2013-12-11T09:24:29-05:00

Remember some of the calming techniques I've learned over the years and do my best to put them into practice. It is not an easy task but my career is never worth separation on someone else's terms other than my own.

Response by SFC Gemma Lopez made Dec 11 at 2013 9:33 AM

2013-12-11T09:33:19-05:00

This is the best time to step up your game and really five into regulations and policy letters. Be totally professional and teach your young Soldiers to do the same. Never take anything personal. It is a challenge, but it will make you and your troops that much better. If issues still come up, ALWAYS, always seek legal advice and consult with your IG.

Response by SFC James Baber made Dec 11 at 2013 7:15 PM

2013-12-11T19:15:00-05:00

Boot to the back of the dome, jk. The hardest and best thing to do is take it to higher echelon, it will sometimes be painful in the short time, but in the end, the reality will come forth and the problem leadership will be gone and you and your Soldiers will be much better off. I have also experienced standing up to them and having them attempt to punish me for it with UCMJ, only to have it blow up in their face when I requested an open hearing for anyone and everyone could attend and see the true issue and it wasn't anything derogatory from me as convey by the leader in question. I have utilized this a few times as a young NCO and Soldier and had two commanders and 1 1SG and one PLT SGT relieved for abuse of power and standards. Above all else stand your ground and protect you and your Soldiers.

Response by SGM Jerry Finin made Dec 11 at 2013 7:24 PM

2013-12-11T19:24:48-05:00

During my career of 30 Years there was one time when I felt as an E-5 that I was dealing with toxic leaders one was a perfectionist CW4 who used scare tactics so therefore I was so scared of ever making a mistake or doing anything wrong on the job and I was a newly promoted Sergeant and my SECTION NCOIC E-6 type was a poor leader did not set any example for me and was a "do as I say not as I do" type of leader. At that time I respected the rank but not the person and I knew at that time that I did not want to be a leader like they were. I pulled through and went on with my career understanding that people will make a mistakes which I felt we all learn by our mistakes so give a Soldier a chance to correct there mistake when it happens and let them learn from it. And I knew then when I pulled out of that toxic leadership that I would set the best example for my Soldiers and not expect anymore from them that I wasn't willing to do myself, so in away these two toxic leaders taught me a thing or two one was not to be like them and two let Soldiers learn from mistakes and always set a good example for Solders to follow. I also learned at that time that all leaders are not good ones. I vowed to be a good leader and now that I have retired with 30 years of service I feel really good about myself cause in my heart I know I did good by all my Soldiers.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2013 7:57 PM

2013-12-11T19:57:55-05:00

Fire them immediately .....

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2013 8:00 PM

2013-12-11T20:00:38-05:00

Fire them immediately .... They don't belong in our Team....

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2013 1:04 AM

2013-12-12T01:04:49-05:00

The first thing I would say is make sure it is actually a toxic leader. I have worked for one horrible toxic leader who was the battalion commander that would actually put hands on people or berate the hell out of people during meetings. This is the textbook definition of toxic.

On the other hand I have had several other bosses who like to work the piss out of their people. If was nothing to have meetings at 0600 and not leaving until after 1900. Although this work seems like a lot and many people in the office loved to use the word Toxic it wasn't as the commander was leveled headed and fair.

It would help if you mentioned what level this leadership was at? If it is simple at the company level there are many more avenues, depending on the rank of your friend, than if he is at a BN/BDE staff. Either way he/she needs to find some people on the same team that can be trusted. That was what helped our people get through that horrible leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2013 11:10 AM

2013-12-12T11:10:10-05:00

Personally in the past I have taken so called toxic leaders to the side and discussed (with tact) the issues. Often the direct route is the answer, all NCOs should not be afraid to correct superiors on matters of policy, regulation, and standard as we are the standards bearers. Be bold take initiative to do what's right especially when it's not popular, we are not in the profession to let it slide or to back door peers, subordinates, or superiors, we are in the profession to enforce the standard regardless of the consequences to ourselves.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 12 at 2013 12:25 PM

2013-12-12T12:25:46-05:00

Easy, detox.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2013 4:17 PM

2013-12-12T16:17:36-05:00

Please be honest with your answer.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2013 5:58 PM

2013-12-12T17:58:02-05:00

I am with you on that. I have ran into E6s that were E6 when i joined the Army. How can I go from E1 to E6 and you havent changed ranks yet. looks to me like someone needs to get out of the way so those of us moving up can.

On another side of that I think the tightening up of standards, changes to NCOES and promotion requirements are going to start taking care of that. We are starting to weed out the weak and you can no longer hide beihind the fact that your orginization has to have you because they need to be ready to deploy.

I think the NCO Corps is just going to get stronger as the NCOs that really want to be here start stepping up and forcing the ones that don't out.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 12 at 2013 8:41 PM

2013-12-12T20:41:47-05:00

There is no one simple answer. The one underlying factor is there is no one quantifiable, objective metric by which to determine who is/is not a toxic leader.

Picture in your mind the single most professional, dedicated, intelligent, competent leader you've ever had. Are you picturing them? Well, I can promise you that there are people in the Army that think the individual you just pictured is a complete dirt bag.

Why? Subjective criteria. We all have a different idea of what right looks like. One mans rock star is another mans dirt bag. Until there is literally one rubric/metric by which to measure personnel, subjectivity will always hinder accurate classification.

Response by MSG David Bridge made Dec 12 at 2013 9:40 PM

2013-12-12T21:40:30-05:00

I spent 26 years in the Army and have dealt with toxic leaders at all levels in different organizations. Honestly, there is really nothing you can do about toxic leaders. Especially those who go by the regulations. A large portion of them feel that they are doing the right thing and some are toxic when they feel threatened by you. They are the kind of people when you push a little in one direction they push even harder in the opposite direction, maybe even to the point where they are out to get you and ruin your career. Really, the only way to defeat this mentality is to forgive and forget, kill them with kindness. For these kind of people, you reacting in a positive way, thanking them for their advice, praising their strengths instead of exposing their weaknesses, will either win them over eventually or get under their skin so bad that it destroys them from within. It's just something you have to endure whether you are in the military or civilian life. Talking to their superiors only backfires most of the time because they will just gang up on you in the end whether you believe it or not. Most senior NCOs and Officers stick together whether they are right or wrong. It's sort of an unwritten code of honor or part of club membership. The good NCOs and Officers far out weigh the bad, and no matter what people say, because of our support for each other, we will always overcome any obstacles to accomplishing the mission regardless of personality conflicts and personal flaws in character.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2013 12:28 AM

2013-12-13T00:28:41-05:00

My very first fire team leader was someone who I consider to be "Toxic". He didn't make me miserable, or take away my time. What he did do, was teach me to hate the Army. He would complain non-stop. He always had something negative to say about other leadership, missions, training, and he was also a big time hypocrite. Not at all what I was hoping for in a leader/mentor as a new soldier. I wasn't young when I joined so I took everything he said with a grain of salt, and I agree with almost nothing he has said to this day. An NCO should NEVER vent like that to a new soldier.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2013 1:25 AM

2013-12-13T01:25:58-05:00

I choose the topic toxic leadership for my NCOPD when I attended SLC in 2011. It was the first time I heard the name and was interested to learn more. The most interesting thing I found was that the Army has been doing research projects and surveys on toxic leadership since 2003. I suspect this topic has been up for discussion for much longer but that was the earliest date I could find. If anyone would like more information on toxic leadership or a copy of the NCOPD I develop send me your email.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Dec 14 at 2013 1:39 PM

2013-12-14T13:39:48-05:00

SFC Velasquez, it took me a short while to figure out what you meant by toxic leader.

I had my fair share of these kinds of leaders. 1 was a member of the KKK, another a leader of a religious group who only recruiter white males into his church.

something's I did was learn the UCMJ.

second was to learn about the groups they support.

third was to do my job. Even though they worked with me and I was just a SPC 4 at the time, all I can think of is how suppressive these people really are, in that they hold me back from advancement.

The KKK leader was aware that the CID was on him so he had no choice but to conduct himself accordingly or face a discharge. He to me was ok, because I also had my OIC 2nd LT at the time and I was supporting him 100%. I didn't have to worry to much, considering that I also had a hobby (Photography) and shortly I became battalion photographer, that made my OIC look really good.

as for the religious leader, I lost all respect him, considering that I heard how he talked about not just Latin's, but African Americans behind their backs. This guy wanted one thing for me court martial and dishonorable discharge.

I dealt with him for a good solid 1 year and 6 months. He would tell every one that I didn't know my job, make me look bad in front of every one in the company, call me names in front of every one to include the 1st SGT, he even threaten me and make do what takes 2 or 3 people to do.

End result I reported him and informed the 1st SGT of his activity, and was preparing to raise charges on him for racism. I had all the people I needed to support me on this case. I was told is I wanted a unit transfer, I said yes.

When I got a transfer, what took place in that unit with him followed me to the new unit. In the new unit, I kept doing my job and still maintained a high moral doing my photography. This was the OIC I spoke earlier, my last 6 months in that unit alone, beside doing my work I went from company photographer to battalion photographer, the BN commander found about me, he requested through my OIC to see if I can get some pictures of the Tank gunnery that was going to take place.

results, my new NCOIC and OIC got involved with me to make that possible.

Day 1, early morning, I started taking pictures of every one having breakfast, went through the entire battalion to take pictures of as many SM I could get photos of, my NCOIC and OIC took those rolls (35 mm) to the people who work in the Army time and develop pictures, by lunch time, in the mess hall, I help set up the mess hall wall, and posted all the pictures that were taken. I believe that boosted the moral of that BN pretty high. Thing is that through out, my additional job was to produce a 25 slide show presentation for after tank gunnery. I caught well over 250 slides, and set them up by company for the presentation. Pictures of night fire, incidents of a tank tipping over were rumors and every one saw it for the first time.

When I was ready to return back to CONUS, I reevaluated my actions in Germany from day 1 to the last day.

day 1 to the 1st year and 6 months.

A toxic NCOIC, but I had allot of support from my unit members, when I took my SQT, I ranked top 2 in the entire area, (For someone who didn't know his job kind of tells a different story right?).

A new hobby (photography) , well over 2-3 thousand dollars of cameras and developing equipment that I keep nicely placed in my wall locker.

In the last 6 months, transferred to a new unit, a tank unit with the M-1 Abram's, something new for me.

Started as a company photographer, went to being battalion photographer.

awarded: best communications of the year award, 2 Army achievement medals, 1 Army commendation medal, Passed the promotion board to E-5, a few letters of appreciation.

I thought I share this with every one, to tell how I dealt with toxic leaders, I haven't seen any toxic leaders since then.

The religious NCOIC was sent back to CONUS shortly after me getting a unit transfer, I don't know what happened to the KKK leader, but from the looks of him I kinder think that might have been false information.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 21 at 2013 11:52 AM

2013-12-21T11:52:02-05:00

Im not sure why because she became promotable she became the PSG. (P) status is not a rank and I'm assuming you still out rank her. Selection doesn't always guarantee promotion and it can be a year before she see's that rocker. I'd have a sit down with her and the 1SG and discuss your concerns. Possibly bring in the other squad leaders depending on the situation.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Dec 21 at 2013 4:43 PM

2013-12-21T16:43:23-05:00

What is the 1SG and CSMs position on this situation? I don't want to believe that if the situation is as dire as you state, and the IG was already contacted one, the 1SG and CSM are just letting it go unchecked.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2013 8:11 PM

2013-12-21T20:11:06-05:00

I know exactly how you feel, as a rifle company 1SG I enherited a company that had just returned from deployment and spent countless hours grooming, mentoring, and developing everyone. The company grew to become the best of five companies in my Squadron and for this, I was selected to serve as a HQs 1SG. Now, for the next year until he was finally moved I watched as what was once the crown jewel fall apart, lead in SIRs, and morale fall. I couldn't begin to count the number of good Soldiers that might have stayed in had my replacement not been such a bad leader. Unfortunately, we don't get to pick our leaders and with that we as Soldiers learn from bad leadership and in praise remember the times we shared with the previous great leader that was there for us. It's extremely tough to sit back and watch this happen but in all honesty there's not really much that can be done except bringing it to the attention of your CSM and her 1SG but believe me, they already know, you're just not the fly on the wall that is hearing it first hand.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2013 8:45 PM

2013-12-21T20:45:58-05:00

Go see your 1SG.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2013 12:11 AM

2013-12-22T00:11:05-05:00

It seems as senior leadership is either supporting her or waiting her out on a PCS move. At some point you have to cut your losses and make due until the situation changes.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Dec 23 at 2013 1:38 AM

2013-12-23T01:38:22-05:00

Not knowing specifics, please let ask a couple questions:

1. New PSG has received numberous counselings. Question - is this the command's attempt to create enough of a paper trail to document a relief for cause?

2. Toxic environment - how much of this was from unfulfilled expectations; how much from a bad transition?

3. Discipline problems and low morale - how much of this is from Squad Leaders' letting Soldiers run amok? Is the PSG such a micromanager that neither the Squad Leaders nor Soldiers know what their role is?

4. Why isn't the Senior Squad Leader filling the vacuum?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2013 2:27 AM

2013-12-23T02:27:46-05:00

I thought I would add a reference to this topic of discussion. I saw some pretty good articles sited already. When I was in the Academy I remembered reading some litature on Toxic Leadership.

COL George E. Reed From Military review, July-August 2004, pages 67 to 71

Response by SFC James Baber made Dec 24 at 2013 9:53 PM

2013-12-24T21:53:46-05:00

I think that most of the other responders have covered many aspects and definitions of what a "toxic" leader should be defined as, the only other thing I could add at this point is the good old boy network that is still around, even though many claim it doesn't exist, anyone who has been in long enough has seen or experienced it at one time or another.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2013 10:47 PM

2013-12-24T22:47:18-05:00

I actually wrote an article concerning this exact topic and one of my proposals was that some type of program be implemented such as those we have in place to deal with EO/SHARP situations.

How such a program could/would function is beyond me - but I think an outside observer should be brought in, conduct a 15-6 style investigation into the matter, and seek to see whether or not the claims are unfounded.

But then comes the question of "what" are we calling "toxic leadership?" The reason I ask is because entire dissertations have been written on this topic and what it ends up boiling down to are these core elements: narcissistic leadership; workplace division; abusive language, speech, or treatment of subordinates; inability to take responsibility for one's mistakes/failures; always seeking to take credit even when that credit isn't warranted, etc.

I don't know. It's a complex issue and here, in 2013, what was once acceptable in the "old Army" is abhorrent in today's professional and educated force.

As far as me? I live by the following mantra when it comes to this stuff: "Everyone has a boss. If you can't get a result at a certain level - go higher. Eventually someone will listen."

I realize that may not be a popular opinion and/or sounds like I advocate "jumping the chain" but the thing you have to realize is that this is OUR Army. It doesn't belong to a group of people forever known as "they." The only way to effect lasting and positive change is to take steps to make it so.

Best of luck to you.

Here's a link to my article: http://tekkek.com/entrepreneur/management/2013/04/toxic-leaders-a-guide-to-spotting-and-coping/

Toxic Leaders: A Primer - TEKKEK

A brief look at Toxic Leaders; what they are, how to spot them, ways to cope with them, followed with a brief commentary on courses of action to take.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2013 6:16 PM

2013-12-30T18:16:14-05:00

SSG Ruiz, I was in this situation before but it wasn't toxic it was just too strict to a point that the morale still went down. This was on the last deployment where a squad leader made the list and they made him the PSG, great person but to me he thought we were still in basic training and he was still the drill sergeant, A LOT OF MICROMANAGING!! this is a person that does't trust nobody and thinks he's always going to get back stabbed. Look at this pass weekend, why does mass punishment exists? I join the Army on my own no one else signed my contract, so why are we still mass punishing companies for one individuals piss poor mistakes? I say if a leader holds that person accountable for his/her piss poor decision and makes an example out of that person the outcome would be better in general. Soldiers are not freaking kids they are adults and should know right from wrong. everyone has its own opinion about different types of toxic leadership but until we start making them take responsibilities for their own actions this toxic stuff is going to be around for a long ass time.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 1 at 2014 10:15 PM

2014-01-01T22:15:58-05:00

To try and do your best to work within the issue and protect the victims first and go forward with what is necessary to deal with the leadership or the higher command for guidance on the situation.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 12:42 AM

2014-01-08T00:42:39-05:00

I think the unit should be evaluated for signs of trouble like high UCMJ prosecutions and find out who and why that is happening.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Jan 8 at 2014 4:02 AM

2014-01-08T04:02:53-05:00

Depends, are you superior to the toxic leader? Relieve them. <br>Are you a peer? Peer counseling or raise it to your Command.<br>Are you junior? Hope that the problem isn't to deep and that it can be
resolved through an open door.<br>Be careful broaching the subject if you are jumping chain. You don't
want to be perceived as trying to break up a "winning" team, or as a non
team player. If that happens, your career is toast and I'll see you
working at the Wal-Mart in 3 years.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 4:19 AM

2014-01-08T04:19:07-05:00

The best way to address "Toxic Leadership" is to talk about it respectfully. The Article and some of the comments here so far point to the commander. But, it states Toxic Leaders still perform well and manage to get promoted none the less.

If its talked about openly in a community event. Then the unit is encouraged to talk whether privately or in a group setting; every complaint should be looked into with sincerity. Sure this could take some time but, if you get 3 or 4 complaints about the same person (SGT SFC LT MAJ etc). That He or She has a bad attitude or did this or that. Almost can guarantee something is probably going on.

If talking about doesn't work. Implement a "peered out" sort of system through AKO or what have you. Something that is anonymous that tracks a current roster of all members against a units MTOE. Make it accessible for every SM to be able to fill out a peer evaluation or report what they believe is an infraction into this system. Once a month or quarter have these records looked at by a third party. A Party who isn't potentially a part of the "winning team" or even near the same post. If a certain person, when the system is reviewed, is coming up more than most or has been given derogatory complaints then they are formally investigated and immediately removed from current position pending investigation results.

I can speak from a Junior Enlisted point of view only, but for me having a system that I could anonymously input events/peer evaluations like this would be way better for me. Only because I would feel if im spotted talking to person x and everyone knows person x is the investigations or EO what have you, well im a rat and I might as well get ready for the suck.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jan 8 at 2014 9:49 AM

2014-01-08T09:49:38-05:00

I'm willing to bet we've all had one we would consider toxic, and I'm also willing to bet that there isn't a single leader in the military who doesn't have at least a few people that think they are horrible. As a general rule, if you're doing your job, you aren't going to be universally popular. And that's fine.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Jan 8 at 2014 11:30 AM

2014-01-08T11:30:23-05:00

I am more than certain all of us have experienced a toxic leader.....some of us more than once. It seems universal. The law of averages catches us all at some point.

However, with regard to viewing ourselves as toxic leaders, it will never happen. People simply don't have the capacity to identify themselves in such terms. One of the key deficiencies in all toxic leaders is a colossal lack of self awareness, and in many cases this is supplemented by a poorly developed moral compass. Those two personal flaws

prevent truly toxic leaders from seeing themselves as they really are. Toxic leaders aren't smart enough or imbued with the level character required to make a determination about how bad their leadership is and its ultimate cause.

It's like being dead. You don't know you're dead, but the people around you do. Same thing when you are a toxic leader. You don't know it, but the people around you do. ;-)

Good article.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 11 at 2014 11:33 PM

2014-01-11T23:33:16-05:00

I think this is a good thread for those we are trying to get to join can see the substance of some things we discuss between us as current and former military, soft spoken as well as informational and mentoring types of postings.

We also have fun at times while remaining professional.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2014 3:04 PM

2014-01-20T15:04:21-05:00

I think everyone has had a toxic leader at some point. I think the question we need to ask is how do you deal with a toxic leader?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2014 3:44 PM

2014-01-20T15:44:26-05:00

I had a Toxic leader in one of my unit before and he
was my Squad Leader and he was defiantly something else. I had just came in the
Active side of the Army from the Guard. After a year of arriving at the company
I was trying to go to the promotion board (E-5) and he kept trying to hold me
back. If it wasn’t for one reason it was for another. He would say either my
APFT wasn’t high enough (my average was around 230) or we had to focus on
mission. Finally several other NCOs saw what was going on and addressed him and
the PLT SGT about it. My Squad Leaders response was I’m going to send him while
we are down range since it is easier and the PLT SGT said that he would not
step on the Squad Leaders toes. During the deployment he still failed to send
me to the board. One month after the deployment I finally got a new Squad
Leader and went to the Board that month. I was promoted to SGT the following
month. The best part about this experience is I as a leader know what not to do
and that 3 years to the date of getting my SGT I was promoted to SSG. I
returned to that same area just after getting my E-6 and ran into my toxic
leader who by the way is still a SGT.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2014 9:33 PM

2014-01-23T21:33:38-05:00

Because they are selected by Toxic CSMs.

Where else would we get our future Toxic CSMs from?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2014 9:37 PM

2014-01-23T21:37:18-05:00

The Peter Principle is the easiest explanation but I believe these toxic individuals inculcate many false premises. And saying that we are not exceptional as a country is a kind of heresy

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Jan 23 at 2014 9:38 PM

2014-01-23T21:38:21-05:00

Why does the Army keep toxic leaders at all?

But what you are actually asking is why does the Army keep incompetent leaders...
There is a distinct difference between the two.
At the E-5/O-1 level, toxic mentalities are easily dealt with since they really lack the level of top over needed to create a toxic environment, so you can only call them failed leaders. And the Army has a way of dealing with that. It is called "Retention Control Point". Failure to achieve certain rank within a given time frame due to choice or incompetence, and the Army administratively releases you.

As for those of you complaining about E-6s who can't make E-7, don't. Central selection as well as rank allocations in some MOSs can effectively freeze some careers at E-6. You will also see more of this with the downsizing. There is one thread where a Soldier is saying that if he isn't picked up this year, change in Time in Service (TIS) requirements may mean he won't be looked at for 5-7 more years. Those of you who have achieved E-6 in 4 yrs will be sitting at that rank for 10 before you will even be looked at for E-7 starting next year.

So, is your issue toxicity or incompetence? If it is toxicity, report them for the hazing, violations of command, SHARP and EO policies. Report them for the way they persistently demean, undermine and exploit their junior Soldiers. If it's incompetence, give it time and it goes away, even if the NCOs command is too incompetent to administratively release them in a timely fashion..

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 1:16 PM

2014-01-24T13:16:54-05:00

The Army is a breeding ground for toxic leaders.  Why you ask? I have read a lot and written a lot on this topic.  Here is why.  The Military is a results based organization.  Now lets look at a toxic leader, toxic leaders are focused on short term goals.  Senior leaders look across their formation and see the "Results" (short term goals) What they don't see is how they got the results.  I read a paper written by a LTC at the war college.  She defined twelve types of Toxic leadership.  But there are blends of the types.  Here is why the Army breeds this style of leadership.  Remember the Seniors only see the results.  Since they don't see the method used they reward or praise the leader for getting the job done.  Here is the worse part. New Soldiers or junior Soldiers who are still developing thier own leadership style see how their leader conducts business, sees the reward for doing business the toxic way, and figures that it is ok and models them self after the "successful" leader.  Since we move around frequently, it helps mask the toxic leader unlike in the civilian sector.  Which is why it's easier to detect because they typically stay in one job for years.  I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I won a writing award on this very subject.  If you like to read my paper, email me at [login to see] .mil .  I could elaborate more but you get the gist of it.  Now, one more point I will make.  Don't beat me up on this one, a study conducted on major military historical figures classified over 80 of them as toxic.  What would you say if maybe, this type of leadership is sometimes needed in the Army?  Like I said, don't kill me, hear me out.  I am on the fence with this.  What would the outcome of WWII had been if Patton wasn't toxic.  (Study said based on info, he was very toxic). Would we have been as successful in the European theater?  Think about what all he did, right or wrong.  Just something to think about.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2014 4:11 PM

2014-02-02T16:11:18-05:00

SGT (P) Hill,

To me Toxic Leadership is a leadership which does not allow their soldiers to think on their own. Or who doesn't care for their soldiers just results.

V/r

1SG Haro

Response by SFC James Baber made Feb 2 at 2014 7:57 PM

2014-02-02T19:57:03-05:00

We have had several topics in reference to your topic/question, I would suggest searching those out on RP and you will find some interesting response and solutions mentioned.

Good luck and enjoy.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Feb 2 at 2014 8:12 PM

2014-02-02T20:12:33-05:00

Perhaps their are many threads open based on this, but I guess you must have been reading my mind SSG Chris H. I myself was going to put something like this as thread because I myself never used the word Toxic Leader in my time of service.

I did find this PDF that may be interesting or not to read about such leaders if they do exist:

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/dclm/Toxic_Leadership.pdf

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2014 8:36 PM

2014-02-02T20:36:45-05:00

My idea of a toxic leader is one who sets a standard then continually moves the goalpost when people meet or exceed that standard. The toxic leader is one who is primarily narcissistic and chooses to destroy morale to make himself/herself look better. The following quote by Major General John M. Schofield in 11AUG1879 says it well: "The discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy than to make an army."

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2014 8:19 AM

2014-02-22T08:19:30-05:00

In my opinion, toxic leadership can be defined in several different ways. There are those who know their job, but do not know how to lead. There are those who know how to lead, but don't know how to do their job. There are those who simply know how to play the game to get promotions who know neither how to do their job, or how to lead.

Overall have been lucky to have some great leadership and mostly only witness the toxic leadership. The biggest form is the lack of humility that seems to be pinned on with rank. For instance, just the other day I overheard a newly pinned Major talking about how, "I can pretty much do whatever I want, it would take an act of Congress to demote me". This same officer only a couple of days earlier was screaming at me because I passed down information about a mandatory training event (as I was asked to do by the CO) and he was upset because he was "being told what to do by a f*ing SPC". (I am the Operations NCO by the way).

Aside from that, there are those who have tons of valuable knowledge and experience who choose to hold that to themselves as a "look how valuable I am, look how much I know tool" instead of using that knowledge and applying it toward training, making the junior troops that much better trained to do their job. The "got mine" type.

There are those who like to make themselves look or feel better by tearing down those around them or making them look worse.

There are those who see a soldier completely ate up, with no idea what their doing and choose to sit back with their little cliques and poke fun or make demeaning comments instead of offering a hand to help them, and teaching them how to do things correctly.

There is certainly those who are dishonest, disrespectful, untrustworthy, childish, egotistical, immature, etc.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2014 11:50 PM

2014-03-08T23:50:40-05:00

I am only a SPC so I can't really say that I have an answer. Sometimes we love an idea or something so much that we r not willing to let go or worry that should we let go, the next person coming behind us will have to go through the same thing we just witnessed; therefore we strive to bring change or fix the problem: I have concluded that the rank structure of the Army make is difficult for realistic situations to be dealt with unless it is taken out of the chain; that is if u really see a problem and want it fix. Sometimes you just have to sacrifice and be the 'bad' person so that others can benefit.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2014 11:55 PM

2014-03-08T23:55:43-05:00

For me, I love my job so much that am not willing to let anything come in between us. I have been screwed in many ways by my leadership so much that I don't even care any more. All I look forward to as I wake up is to do my job and am good at it too. Weather they see it or not, commend me for it or not, reward me, my mind set is; move on, wind the time and PCS. That is only because talking and trying to follow people to do their jobs have not worked.

Response by MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 11:15 PM

2014-03-09T23:15:41-04:00

I identify a toxic leader as one that can poison the organizational climate. I recently encountered an excellent case study that effected such a change. In an effort to address sub-par performance of a few individuals, the leader addressed everyone and chastised their performance without regard to the actual performance level (which was above the competition). The immediate impact began to degrade the organizational performance; however, the impact of his actions began a downward spiral that resulted in increased turnover and it took several years before the effects finally dissipated. I see this same pattern occurring in the military as well.

Response by SFC James Baber made Mar 18 at 2014 8:52 PM

2014-03-18T20:52:58-04:00

SSG P.,

It is always talked about and many proposed ways to fix the problems and issues are talked about, but very few true implementations actually ever take place.

I wish you luck and good fortunes for your continued military service.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2014 8:55 PM

2014-03-18T20:55:53-04:00

I think it is a straw dog. An issue meant to flame against the military. Then you consider the AF Sex Abuse at Lackland, 800 dollar hammers and downsizing, you get the impression that things are dire. They are not. People who rail mostly hate us and that is the truth. I do not like them very much either.

Response by SSG Zachery Mitchell made Mar 23 at 2014 7:16 AM

2014-03-23T07:16:59-04:00

Sadly it's almost harder to get rid of the toxic ones than it is the good ones. We've all seen the toxic leaders, we all know who that one guy/gal that just doesn't belong but yet we see them continue on with no repercussions for their toxicity. Is there a solution to this? I don't know. What I do know is that there seems to be a little less toxic leaders now than when I first joined. I don't know if it's the units that have changed or if leaders have gotten better or what, but there does seem to be a little less bad ones than years past. Hopefully with the current downsizing we'll see even less and less toxic leaders.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Mar 25 at 2014 1:31 AM

2014-03-25T01:31:37-04:00

Already got many threads on this subject.... a few to start you...

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/toxic-leadership--2
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/toxic-leadership
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/army-takes-on-toxic-leadership

RallyPoint | Army Takes on Toxic Leadership

What do you think is the best way address a toxic leadership issue in your unit?http://www.npr.org/2014/01/06/259422776/army-takes-on-its-own-toxic-leadersArmy Takes On Its Own Toxic LeadersCould dest...

RallyPoint | TOXIC LEADERSHIP

RallyPoint | Toxic Leadership

In your own words what is a Toxic Leader? Have you witnessed Toxic Leadership in a past or present unit? Is there any advice you would give to subordinate Soldiers who have or are curre...

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Apr 14 at 2014 8:29 PM

2014-04-14T20:29:13-04:00

This is a situation where you've got to escalate the matter to the 1SG and CDR. I wouldn't take it to the IG because they won't act unless this PSGs actions are wayyyy out of reg. The 1SG and CDR, however, can fix this issue in a heartbeat; any decent one would.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 8:18 PM

2014-04-17T20:18:28-04:00

Deliberately neglecting or targeting Soldiers. The result of that will lead to an unsuccessful mission.

Response by MSG Jose Colon made Apr 26 at 2014 8:08 PM

2014-04-26T20:08:53-04:00

Toxic leadership has to be dealt from above. Junior leaders can confront other toxic leaders, but they usually get squashed.

I have seeing EO, sexual harassment complaints, and IG complaints just being squashed because the accused walks on water as a CSM or high ranking leader.

I was lucky when I addressed a situation as a PFC with my PLT SGT, but again, I was 27, had led a 1500 people government organization before I joined the Army, and could stand on my own two feet.

Unfortunately, most Junior leaders do not have the courage to step up and address it properly.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made May 8 at 2014 5:08 PM

2014-05-08T17:08:27-04:00

Was said NCO being belligerent or a douche when quoting said regulation to the point that it detracted everyone from their mission?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 8 at 2014 5:09 PM

2014-05-08T17:09:37-04:00

A poor leader is a poor leader, I don't think that definition needs clarifying. Now a "toxic" leader is a poor leader whose actions or inactions cause residual effects throughout the unit. The poor leader to whom you can trace a lot of your woes.

That's where the term "toxic leader" came from, it replies to the spreading effect, ie toxic. It's not a blanket term for any bad leader. It's for the poor leader whose dirtbaggery is spreading, causing residual effects throughout the unit.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2014 5:09 PM

2014-05-08T17:09:59-04:00

it's all about using tact, even when you know you are right.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Sep 28 at 2014 1:16 PM

2014-09-28T13:16:46-04:00

SSG Adam Cunningham,

I have, as I know many if not all in the military, experienced toxic leaders. One of the more inflammatory examples was a Battalion Commander who had little leadership experience prior to gaining her Command. She was an attorney, and although previously a Commissioned Officer, she made O-3 (CPT) and O-4 (MAJ) as an attorney then was assigned as a BN CDR and promoted to O-5 (LTC). Everyone who did not agree with her was out to get her and couldn't "see the big picture." My unit had just returned from a deployment and were "volunteered" for another rotation at the 6th month point. Not wholly uncommon, but her attitude was literally "your deployment will look good on my OER." She fired two Command Sergeants Major and a number of Company Commanders even providing my Commander with a referred OER without substantiation, counseling history, or a single event which would justify this result. Defining her as a toxic leader was not a challenge at all. She did not heed what her "experienced" leaders were advising and if she perceived someone was in her path or would not genuflect she removed them. Even with substantiated IG complaints she remained in Command and has since been promoted to O-6 (COL).

My definition of toxic leaders is: A leader whose actions support an agenda which is solely based on personal gain, image or "optics", and whose loyalty is self serving. This leader will utilize competent personnel until they are unable to perform any longer, blame others for failures, and NEVER accept responsibility for their actions.

Identifying a toxic leader may be a challenge in the short term, but in the long term their true motivation and leadership will be exposed. Look for the person who is more concerned with their OER, NCOER, or senior civilian rating than the welfare of their troops and the accomplishment of the mission. Look for the person who exposes troops to undo risk to accept that "great OER/NCOER bullet" mission. SGM Dean Smith's point with regards to toxic leaders being focused on short term, is on point and reinforces my assertion.

We combat toxic leaders with several techniques. One, initially, loyal dissention. We remain loyal to the leader and present reasons why decisions are not the better or best ones and then present an idea which is a better or best one. Some toxic leaders may be rehabilitated if enough time, effort, and energy is offered at the right time. There may come a point when this technique has failed or puts you in peril as the toxic leader no longer listens and may even target you. FYI, in my experience, toxic leaders never take public criticism well and if possible this should be avoided as it is unprofessional and erodes discipline.

When this tactic fails, and likely it will, then you should utilize your NCO support channel to frankly and openly discuss the issue with the 1SG and or CSM depending on billet and MTO&E. If no workable solution exists you could attempt the utilization of the higher Commanders "open door policy." If you select this option, be warned of the consequences. My experience has taught me, toxic leaders will not go quietly and it is likely your career may take a hit before theirs. Integrity is optional with toxic leaders.

Finally, there is the Inspector General. AR 20-1 is not a friend to a Soldier who files an IG complaint. It provides many "loop holes" for a lack of action or even a finding by the IG of a violation but no corrective action suggested, because there is no associated "damage" to an individual. I am certain everyone has different opinions and fact driven experiences with the IG, mine have all been not so good. Remember any valid IG complaint must have a tie to a violation of a law, Regulation, policy, or procedure.

I have also seen toxic leaders accept correction and then vacillate back to being a toxic leader after. Is it stress, the pressure of leadership, or an overarching desire to succeed? Another great point made by SGM Dean Smith is pertaining to a perceived need to have toxic leaders at the right time and place. While I respect the success of General Patton (his Army helped save my Dad at the Battle of the Bulge), I am not sure that type of toxicity would be tolerated in todays military.

This is a great topic and one I wish would be examined by the USA Sergeant Majors Academy and Command and General Staff College (if it has not been already). If it has, please pardon me, but my career ended before my opportunity to achieve such training.

Thank you for the opportunity to post.

SFC Joseph M. Finck USA (Ret)

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Oct 24 at 2014 1:16 PM

2014-10-24T13:16:26-04:00

Well it seems that one command team has excused their actions for toxicity for making "On the Spot" corrections. There obviously is a lot of emotion in this decision this month, I have witnessed the NAVY publicly take care of their issues with regard to leadership and I suggest that if this one was NOT a woman, the Army would have never had publicity on it. We have been behind the curve ball in addressing and enforcing toxic leadership situations to be resolved.

'Toxic' battalion commander returns to job despite recommendation of firing

The commander of a Fort Carson helicopter battalion objected when subordinates talked about a toxic command climate, according to documents obtained by The Gazette.

Response by SFC Peter Cyprian made Dec 5 at 2014 12:50 AM

2014-12-05T00:50:48-05:00

I joined the Army in 1989 and the NCOs then were a very different breed than the ones you see today. The standards that I was expected to maintain as a PFC would shame many SGTs today. They instilled a sense of professionalism that wasn't just lip service. When I was recommended to go to the E5 board, it wasn't because I had sufficient TIG/TIS, it was because they saw I was meeting the high standards expected of a NCO. In turn, I did my best to emulate those NCOs and maintain the high standards. Around the late 90s we saw a change- the Joint Chiefs went before the Senate Arms Committee and told them we could not sustain the op tempo for a number of reasons, the lack of junior leadership was near the top of that list. What did the politicians do? They pulled up the stats and said "you have all these E4s that could be E5s, so you better start promoting them" (paraphrasing). Given their marching orders on the matter, the standards were dropped to allow rapid promotion.

Why all this history? It is simple- think of the military as a high performance race car. Can you run such a car on low grade fuel? Yes, as a matter of fact you can....but there are long term consequences. Just like our rapid promotions....yes, they fill the immediate need, but what type of "leaders" are they producing? What type of leaders are those "leaders" producing? When you get about 3 generations deep, you see all types of issues coming to the surface. You start to see "NCOs" (dare I call some of them by this title) that have very little in common with those high caliber NCOs that raised me. You see NCOs that will not enforce standards unless pressed; NCOs that shirk their responsibilities to their Soldiers; NCOs that make excuses for everything under the sun; NCOs that are sending Soldiers to promotion boards that have no business being there. The cycle just gets worse.

Now for the good news.....there are still outstanding NCOs out there. NCOs with high standards; NCOs that enforce the rules, from the seemingly tedious rules to the "no shit" type rules. NCOs that outright refuse to send a Soldier to the board unless they demonstrate those high standards and qualities we should expect from a NCO.

The answer to your question, IMO, is to emulate and support the NCOs that are getting it done right. Do not yield on your standards. Do not send substandard troops to the board. Enforce the standards- from the little things to the big. Set high expectations for your subordinate NCOs and hold their feet to the fire when they fail to maintain the standards.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 8:05 PM

2014-12-21T20:05:00-05:00

There are so many ways to define and identify toxic leadership but I realized that people like that do not win at the end. It's normally are your haters who try to bring you down and what sucks even worse is you have to go downrange with these ppl than see them every day.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 8:11 PM

2014-12-21T20:11:04-05:00

If fellow humans in leadership positions could talk to other fellow humans in non leadership positions like humans everything would be great.

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Dec 21 at 2014 8:32 PM

2014-12-21T20:32:02-05:00

You know, since I'm probably the lowest ranking soldier on this thread, shame on me. But honestly, in the history of any organization, ups and downs like this are common and a fact of life. You have a wave of good leadership, with new ideas, vigor, and accomplishments, but when the guard changes, you end up with people who lacked the insight that their former leaders had. Its not just the military, its only that the military holds itself to a different standard because the military deals directly with life or death issues facing the country.

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Dec 21 at 2014 8:33 PM

2014-12-21T20:33:05-05:00

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 5:24 AM

2015-02-04T05:24:15-05:00

There is no set definition of a toxic leader. How you can combat it??? Learn from him/her. You may not know what right looks like but you can see wrong from a mile away. My old 1SG told me that you learn more from bad leaders than you do good leaders. Because the bad leaders you learn what NOT to do and how not to treat your troops. Good luck, since you posted this you must have some toxic leaders amoung you. Which means you are learning alot!