How should a Junior Officer make uniform/appearance corrections to Junior Enlisted?

2014-05-12T21:46:47-04:00

Here's the situation:
There are a couple people (E3 and E5) I work with who frequently come to work looking sloppy (mostly their hair being out of standards - loose, wispy buns falling below the collar, or excessive, faddish makeup). I don't know if any of other officers or senior enlisted have said anything to them.

As a JO, what is my scope of authority to correct their appearance? How do I approach the situation

I know to make sure I can back up a standard with a written regulation. But I keep falling back on the fact that I have little more than a year in the Navy so do not necessarily have the experience to stand on.

Any advice/suggestions?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2014 10:03 PM

2014-05-12T22:03:13-04:00

Maam

We have NCO Business, but this definitely falls in the realm of General Military Authority. If they are wrong, step in and address it.

Response by MSgt David Mata made May 12 at 2014 10:15 PM

2014-05-12T22:15:57-04:00

Sir, when you are right; you are right, no matter what the rank. I am sure there are plenty of SNCO's, NCO's and Officers thinking the same as you. Unfortunately, no one wants to be labeled "uncool." That stops plenty of "leaders" from speaking up. Sir, I am sure if you start digging into someone's ass because they look like a soggy Duffel Blog, any SNCO's or others in the vicinity would back you up IMMEDIATELY if any Enlisted Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine tried to give you lip. Pull the troop aside and tell him "one on one" that you expect more out of him if he is going to remain in "Your" (whatever: Service, Unit, Yard, etc.)and he better stop showing up to duty as though he slept in his uniform and brushed his teeth with a turd. Sometimes, Sir, it is as easy as that.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 12:03 PM

2014-05-13T12:03:21-04:00

Ensign Kellogg

You have the authority to correct the failure of other leaders. Whether you decide to take the situation in hand on your own or get someone in the Chief's Mess involved is up to you. You are empowered to do this - it is within your scope of authority - however you seem to realize that you are in a precarious position as an Ensign. You're not so much a JO, but simply one with limited experience, hence my suggestion you get with a Chief - better yet, find out who is each individuals' senior petty officer. Politely but firmly inform the senior petty officer that you have observed this failure to maintain standards and that it needs to be addressed and done so promptly. In this manner you will allow the senior petty officer an opportunity to do their job and accomplish the mission at the lowest possible level.

If, after your conversation with the senior petty officer, the situation is not corrected - then have the same conversation with the senior petty officer's Chief. I'm fairly certain the situation will be rectified if you mention to the Chief that you've already spoken to the senior petty officer of each individual and the situation has not resolved.

If, in the unlikely situation you find yourself addressing the same scenario with the same two individuals - this is when you can either take this up with your senior or the Command Master Chief.

Or....if you don't feel like having to make the chain of command function like it's supposed to - just take a picture (if your command area permits Iphones/smart phones in your area) and take it to the Chief's Mess.

Or....you can get in the middle of it and just write them up.

The options are many - however, utilizing the chain of command is the most effective in the long run.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 12:05 PM

2014-05-13T12:05:44-04:00

I'm an O-4 and have been corrected by E-5s (or even below) on more than one occasion. Nothing to do with rank here, it's about everyone policing standards. I appreciate getting corrected because it generally means there's something I don't know and should know.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 12:54 PM

2014-05-13T12:54:13-04:00

Ma'am, on the spot corrections are most effictive if the deficiency is a simple oversight. If you think this is just that a simple oversight or a lack of knowledge then by all means yes make the correction. It seems to me the situation you discribe is an on going issue and one that the Soldiers are likely aware of and simply ignore the standards. If this is the case I would say the best course of action would be to address the issue with the immediate supervisor and have them sit the Soldiers down and do a foraml counseling and perhaps some corrective training.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made May 13 at 2014 2:12 PM

2014-05-13T14:12:19-04:00

Ma'am

Doesn't matter how much time you have you are an officer and need to make corrections period.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 2:16 PM

2014-05-13T14:16:50-04:00

ma'am, you have two options;

Make the correction yourself
Seek guidance from an NCO so they can do the correction.

Both are correct answers, nether is better then the other, nether is more right then the other.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made May 13 at 2014 2:37 PM

2014-05-13T14:37:02-04:00

Ma’am,
As an officer, junior or otherwise, it is TOTALLY within your scope of authority to correct their appearance. Additionally, I would say it is within your DUTY to make those corrections when you see them and I would say you need to find out why their leadership is not already making these corrections?
Here is how I would recommend approaching these sailors (I am assuming sailors, but if I am wrong change the word to properly reflect the service member) and say, “Sailor, come here for a second.” Take them aside and ask, “Do you know the standard for hair in uniform? Is your hair within this standard? Well, it will be the next time I see you, right!” Before they leave, get their first line supervisors name and make sure they know the standard as well. IF they do not know the standard, help train them…but I would be shocked to find they do not know the standard…and I have been shocked before.
An additional piece of advice, make sure you know what the regulation actually does say and then do your duty as an officer in the United States military and maintain the standard.
Last, IF there is an NCO part of this mess, pull them aside first, make the correction with them first and then send them out to do their job and correct the enlisted troops. Provide them with a friendly reminder that the military is making lots of cuts and if you need to do their job then we really don’t need them does we?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 3:17 PM

2014-05-13T15:17:25-04:00

Instead of saying anything to the E-3 and E-5, I would instead talk to their first-line NCO, and inquire as to why lax standards are now accepted commonplace. You may have the authority to correct this issue, but the correction won't last unless it is getting enforced by the first-line NCO...which is likely where this entire problem originated. There is usually more than meets the eye in these situations. Get the whole story before you make an attempt to confront them directly.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 9:03 PM

2014-05-13T21:03:40-04:00

There are so many of us in the Officer Corps who were NCOs previously and had no problem correcting individuals (quite vigorously at times, I might add). There is no excuse for not correcting issues. We all know the standard. Sometimes you might turn it on to the individual by saying "does that seem right?' or something to that effect. We all don't need to be Drill Sergeants about corrections, but we can't let things slide. I see that a little too much nowadays.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 9:49 PM

2014-05-13T21:49:05-04:00

Make the corrections on the spot. If you want to ensure that the enlisted member wants to take you serious and not be embarrassed take them aside or make sure it is not too public. I have had to correct many a junior Soldiers. It really does not matter if you are the first one to see them or if they were corrected already. They need to be corrected on the spot. You may be the first to see them, the first to correct them, or the last person that makes them correct it. You know what right looks like and you must ensure that they know what is it looks like too.

Response by SGT Aaron Barbee made May 14 at 2014 1:37 PM

2014-05-14T13:37:40-04:00

All in all lots of good, solid replies to this one. Personally, every Soldier, Sailor, Airman, and Marine have General Military Authority. Under this authority, everyone has the right, privilege, authority, and RESPONSIBILITY, to correct one another. If you are a junior correcting someone senior, be tactful. If you are an officer of any rank correcting enlisted expect their attention and respect. If you are seeing someone who is jacked up, and not saying anything, you are just as wrong as them.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 14 at 2014 6:19 PM

2014-05-14T18:19:43-04:00

Ma'am, Just make an on the spot correction and if the service member shows resistance or is disrespectful, get their information and report them.

Response by SSgt Robert Clark made Jun 23 at 2014 8:55 AM

2014-06-23T08:55:51-04:00

Unless things have changed significantly in the past 21 years, it's everyone's responsibility to correct what they see to be obvious disregard to dress and appearance or any other reg/standard. The issue most likely is, even when I was in, will you have the backing of the chain of command? Unfortunately, even though you are correct, you may not have more senior backing which causes a whole new set of issues.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jun 23 at 2014 9:01 AM

2014-06-23T09:01:35-04:00

You are well within your prerogative to make any correction....just make sure that your correction is indeed correct....

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Jun 23 at 2014 9:05 AM

2014-06-23T09:05:16-04:00

ENS Kellog, you have gotten a lot of accurate advice. It has to be difficult coming in as a young officer to an area full of "salty" personnel. My advice to you would be make those corrections. The best way to do it is to pull that person aside and do it quietly, as the violation is not the end of the world. By showing a modicum of respect to the violators, it shows that you care enough to not embarrass them. If they are any good at all, they will respect that and appreciate the consideration, and fix the issue.

The next best piece of advice that I would give you is to find a solid Chief, and let them educate you a little on how things run (which I am sure that you may already have done). They will know exactly who and what the problems are in your area. They will also keep you out of trouble.

The sad thing is that when you look at a unit, if there are a lot of little issues, like always being out of regulations, it can sometimes be indicative of larger issues lurking that you will later find.

In my career, I have found that a well disciplined unit tends to be a much more effective unit. The troops will have more pride in what they do and the mission will be accomplished with minimal supervision. Nobody really wants to be part of a non-disciplined military unit. They look bad to their peers and they troops wind up separating instead of staying in the service.

Best of luck.

Response by SSG David Doughty made Jun 25 at 2014 9:32 PM

2014-06-25T21:32:52-04:00

You are a Commissioned Officer in the United States Navy. It is your sworn obligation to maintain the standards set in applicable regulations. Were I in your shoes, as these are people you work with on a regular basis, I would get hold of their non-com(s) and strongly suggest they start taking their roles as leaders seriously and suggest they start by knowing and enforcing the standard. You could make the correction yourself, but by doing so, you're allowing your NCOs to slack and that is unacceptable.

Just my two cents, take them for what they're worth.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2014 10:12 AM

2014-08-06T10:12:18-04:00

Ma'am
I feel that the JO or even NCO should make corrections before a someone like a BG sees it.

Response by LTC Barry Hull made Aug 6 at 2014 10:16 AM

2014-08-06T10:16:20-04:00

If you have several enlisted showing up a mess, the problem is not with the enlisted. It is with an NCO. A good NCO will not let little discipline issues like that occur. Are these all in one section or across the board? I would address an NCO, especially if it was in MY unit.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2014 4:58 PM

2014-08-06T16:58:29-04:00

LT Jessica Kellogg, If I can correct a Brigadier General, you can yell at some Seamen, and correct some Petty Officers ma'am.

Just tell them they are wrong and tell them to fix it. There is no excuse for unsatisfactory appearance. Especially the NCO, who is setting a bad example for junior sailors.

Think of it this way, ma'am, does being senior excuse you from regulation, or order?

They'll mock you for it, but you need to correct people and not be afraid of what they'll say or think, because it really doesn't matter what they think, ma'am, but correcting them yourself will build confidence, and make you a better leader.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2014 3:07 AM

2014-10-27T03:07:38-04:00

On the spot corrections are always acceptable but in general let NCOs make the corrections. As a former NCO it is hard for me not to correct junior enlisted but it is important to empower your people.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Jan 14 at 2015 12:26 PM

2015-01-14T12:26:01-05:00

OTSC has no rank on the two way street of what is right, all guilty parties may be equally addressed from E-1 through O-10, just some are easier to digest depending on the scale who is at fault and who is making the correction.

Response by MSgt Rob Weston made Jan 14 at 2015 5:28 PM

2015-01-14T17:28:19-05:00

Ens, you have the authority to make those corrections on them... As an added measure inform their supervision (SNCO) for follow-up and to CYA. Also if necessary, document the correction of a verbal does not change the situation.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 2:26 AM

2015-01-16T02:26:55-05:00

Ma'am,

As many have said you are well within your right. If your Sailors are a soup sandwich then correct them. You can certainly start by going to the Work Center Supervisor or LPO first and addressing the issue with them. The chain of command goes both ways. Also, your LCPO or CMDCM will be more than happy to assist you. Use your Chiefs Mess they will help you.

V/R

Senior

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 3:47 AM

2015-01-16T03:47:50-05:00

About 10 years ago when I was an NCO, making on-the-spot corrections seemed to be "NCO business." However, it has rightfully morphed into "Leader Business." Look at it as your responsibility to make those corrections and approach the situation as if your intent is to help the individual meet the standard. A true professional would more than likely thank you rather than take it personally.

I have had minor uniform errors during my time simply because I was preoccupied or in a rush. When it was pointed out to me, I was grateful. I would much rather correct myself as opposed to looking unprofessional.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 4:48 AM

2015-01-16T04:48:52-05:00

As a leader, supervisor you have to choose the correct words and the faddish statement is one that can be misinterpreted, you open yourself up for a complaint... I will share a story with you.... At a promotion board down range a white CSM (southern guy) kicked out three NCOs from the board for having fadish hair styles; their hair was within regulation, the CSM opinion on their hair being faddish was because they had waves. Most Black guys get waves from brushing their hair, to call the result of maintaining a well groomed appearance; faddish came of as misinformed or even racist; so you need to be careful because even while the reg has most things explained in depth; some are open to interpretation and makeup and hair being one of them.... whos to say what a natural color is? Dver seen a darkskinned person with blode hair, red hair....not dyed, but thats their natural color...just saying you need to know what your talking about alot of leaders throw out regs and are unaware that their was a milper message or change to the reg

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 2:29 PM

2015-01-16T14:29:43-05:00

Ma'am,
The rules are rules irrespective of the time that you have been privy to said rules. When it comes to correcting, I find that it is how one approaches.

In my opinion, a little more difficult when dealing with females, I dare say. I go with the firm but pleasant, "Excuse me, SrA/SSgt/PO. It seems that your hair has fallen out of your bun. Go ahead and tighten it up." Just smile and kind of linger in wait.

Makeup is a little more complex. In the AF, our regulation is very subjective by the use of the word "conservative". ((womp womp)) I do love my makeup, that is fact. Lol. I once encountered a young lady just a pretty as a picture; full lashes and lips in uniform. We had an, erm, discussion over "less is more" and "Distracting from the uniform". The AF won that day. :)

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2015 2:04 PM

2015-01-26T14:04:22-05:00

If you are worried about potential backlash due to lack of experience, it could be best to bring the violations to the attention of the senior enlisted and see what they would want to do about it. More likely than not, they just missed seeing the violations and would want to do something about it to ensure standards are maintained and to protect the image of the unit. However, if nothing is done about it, then feel free to make the corrections personally. You earned your commission, and you have the privilege of command. Enforce the standards you wish to see upheld.

Response by SP6 Nearoffutt Nebraska made Jan 30 at 2015 10:17 AM

2015-01-30T10:17:42-05:00

Active duty and reserves, I had 24 good years when I retired a SSG, E6. On my last day and your first day as an officer, I would have shown respect and listened to you with a yes ma'am. While attending the University, I went to check out the ROTC as the pay was better and I was already a lifer. I declined the offered scholarship because I was not willing to accept the responsibility. No disrespect on myself, I knew who I was. I better served as a squared away NCO.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 3:53 PM

2015-07-30T15:53:57-04:00

LT Jessica Kellogg I know this is an old topic but in case you are still following it I want to (re) emphasize a point.

As men (NCO, SCNO, Officers) we are VERY reluctant to correct female uniform issues, including makeup, hair, etc.

Some of this comes from not knowing what is truly "ok" for female standards. Although that may seem like a cop out it's also true. We obviously know male standards because we have to follow them as well. Additionally it may be uncomfortable for us to approach a female sailor and tell her that she is wrong about something, especially if it is borderline.

We DEFINITELY rely on female leaders to help us with this. If you see something wrong PLEASE correct it. And if you feel it's outside your chain, talk to the leader that Sailor works for and I can almost guarantee they will appreciate the help and even potentially ask you to speak with them.

The fact that you care enough to ask this question is very encouraging. We have a shortage of female leaders that we haven't fully caught up with as we have implemented women in the military. It's sad but true. Until the numbers even out some, we will have to rely on those of you in leadership positions who care to help the men, who just don't get it sometimes, out.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Mar 7 at 2016 10:46 AM

2016-03-07T10:46:25-05:00

Rank shouldn't be the consideration here; applicable uniform and appearance standards should be Ma'am. I have been corrected from up and down the rank structure, and conversely, I have corrected many a soldier--to include my former battalion commander--regardless of rank.

Know what is correct first, and it sounds like you do, that should impart confidence to subsequently make corrections in a professional manner. Help them to understand what right is, why it is, and how it is beneficial to your service, your workplace, and to them. For 90% of people, that should do it, but if that fails...bring the pain.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2016 11:12 AM

2016-03-07T11:12:30-05:00

Personally, unless the offense was grievous, I would speak to the members supervisor. That way I could assure that I was correct in my interpretation of the reg, and, more importantly, I could speak to the supervisor's failure to correct the situation before I saw it.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2016 1:18 PM

2016-03-10T13:18:27-05:00

As long as you know what you're talking about and are confident the correction you give is based on regulations, and you present your correction in a professional manner, you'll be fine. However, to both empower your PO / CPOs (NCOs in the Army) and show you trust them, I would recommend having a talk with whomever your PO / CPO is that you work with most closely and have them address it from their level first. This also shows them that you know the standards, are not afraid to enforce them, and will also hold the PO / CPOs accountable for keeping junior enlisted members "ship shape".

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Mar 10 at 2016 1:24 PM

2016-03-10T13:24:18-05:00

First you have a duty as a leader to always correct them. Second that falls under General Military Authority even if they out rank you. Third correct them on the spot and if they out rank you with tact. Fourth and final if they are subordinates correct them and if it is determined to be a bigger problem corrective training (showing up every hour in a different uniform, or anything that teaches them how to un..., um...screw with an "F", themselves.)

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2016 1:40 PM

2016-03-10T13:40:56-05:00

Ma'am;
You are a Commissioned Officer. Therefore, you have authority to immediately correct anyone under you. In addition to this, you have GMA (General Military Authority) which states that you may make on-the-spot corrections as needed to ANYONE of ANY rank. If they are jacked up, square them away. Most people would appreciate it because if you handle it politely and respectfully, then you are saving those Joes form the total reaming that they would get from, say, a SCPO or a MCPO. You are doing them a favor. And if they have an issue with it, then you can properly utilize your status as an Officer and put the fear of the gods into them.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2017 7:47 PM

2017-02-17T19:47:23-05:00

I know this is an old topic but I have to weigh in:

Ma'am, you must correct them.

If I was in your position, this is how I would do it.

SPC and below: On the spot correction as soon as the discrepancy is noted.

CPL and higher: "Come to my office for a second CPL/SGT." Correct them in private. I'm not a fan of correcting NCOs in front of juniors unless their mistake can cause excessive property damage or risk life, limb and eyesight.

I would also tell them that as NCOs they should know better. NCOs set the standard for soldiers, whether they intend to or not. In my opinion, a sloppy NCO has no business leading or correcting soldiers until they fix themselves first. If it was a continual thing with them, I'd put it on paper. NCOs are held to higher standards because they are were the "rubber meets the road". If he/she can't figure out how to be within AR 670-1 , then how could I (as a future 2LT) expect them to lead my troops....especially when I'm not around?

I'd also have a talk with the PSG. They should be policing this up......it shouldn't even take you to correct it. Maybe they aren't aware, but if they are then they need to get off their biggest point of contact and fix it.

Response by LTC Charles T Dalbec made Jan 20 at 2019 9:42 AM

2019-01-20T09:42:56-05:00

In a friendly group conversation say maybe at lunch you may want to talk about prior experience with situations such as this and why there are standards. Don’t get into a battle just pass along your corrective comments. Then you may want to let your first line leader know that you did that. Okay??

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2021 10:03 PM

2021-01-22T22:03:56-05:00

Spot discrepancy with uniform....walk over (or call over) to the individual....make on the spot corrections. And provide reference if they ask. Easy Peasy. I've had to correct O-5s before. And I have had E-3 correct me (although rare). If something is wrong, just fix it.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2021 10:01 AM

2021-01-23T10:01:41-05:00

It's your duty. It's also a great way to gain experience. Be tactful and professional. Make the correction fit the oversight. An Irish pennant is not as egregious as showing up for watch in Dress Blues and shower shoes.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2021 3:24 PM

2021-01-23T15:24:08-05:00

LT Jessica Kellogg Ask them why they're so fucked up. It doesn't matter anyone's rank - if you see something that's out of regulations, on the spot correction. It doesn't matter if they're junior in rank or senior.

If it's become common, fix it the next time you see it. I mean if I see a soldier jacked up, I ask them "What's going on?" Find out if they're just being lazy or if maybe there's something else going on in their life, especially if this is a change in how they usually show up to work.

It doesn't matter if you have one year or 10 years - you can correct someone if they're wrong.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jan 23 at 2021 5:46 PM

2021-01-23T17:46:28-05:00

In the Marine Corps SNCO's and NCO's are the keepers of uniform and grooming standards. In general, I did not correct junior Marines if a SNCO or NCO was present. I would discreetly call the senior SNCO or NCO aside, point out the Marines that I felt were substandard and ask the SNCO or NCO "Do you see a problem there?" It never took any more than that.

If there was no SNCO or NCO present, I'd call the junior Marine aside. I tell them that their uniform or grooming was not up to standard, and ask why. If there was a good reason for them to be outside of the standard, I'd let them know that they needed to correct it as soon as compatible with their duties. If there was no good reason and:
_they agreed they were outside the standard, I told them what I thought was a reasonable time to fix it and told them to report back to me when it was fixed.
_they disagreed they were outside the standard, I told them what I thought was a reasonable time to fix it and told them to report back to me when it was fixed. Or, find the standard, return to me with that standard, and prove they were within the standard. I'd explain that if they were incorrect as to the standard, the dead line to fix it remained the same.

Response by Capt Gregory Prickett made Jan 23 at 2021 8:30 PM

2021-01-23T20:30:30-05:00

The Navy is a bit different than the other services. In your case I would speak to their CPO and let them handle the correction.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jan 23 at 2021 10:12 PM

2021-01-23T22:12:58-05:00

On the spot corrections. As a leader it is your duty.

Response by SSgt Thomas A Tullis Jr made Jan 24 at 2021 1:26 PM

2021-01-24T13:26:19-05:00

Are you afraid of the dark too? You are an Officer. You are their superior regardless of service length.