How should we incentivize PT Excellence?

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:28:35 -0400

This has been a large topic of discussion lately in my office. How do we incentivize our personnel to score about a 90% on their PT Test?

Overall the Air Force has approximately a 50% Excellent rate. But as it stands, the only reason people have to score Excellent is once-a-year testing. Some units give a day off, but is that truly incentive to get above a 90%?

There have been talks of giving people who score Excellent an advantage when it comes to Promotion. Whoever, a lot of people would view that as unfair when you equate profiles and the standards of the test itself.

I'm curious as to what your unit is doing and if it is working. If not, what could a unit do to incentivize Excellent?

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 11:34 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:34:33 -0400

Well .... wish there should be incentive ... but that is part of our job. Right?

Incentive always good, and may improve PT performance ...

Response by Sgt Mark Ramos made Oct 22 at 2015 11:35 AM

Sgt Mark Ramos — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:35:55 -0400

I think you have a typo. incentivize

Response by MSgt Stephen Council made Oct 22 at 2015 11:38 AM

MSgt Stephen Council — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:38:47 -0400

No incentive should be needed. I took my last test less than 2 weeks before I retired and only one of the 20 junior enlisted that worked for me beat me. Fitness should be its own incentive. This kind of question is why the other services laugh at us...I had to counsel several officers who used to show junior enlisted how to compute their minimum passing score. I simply informed them that if they are targetting the minimum, they were not leadership caliber officers.

Response by SGT James Sims made Oct 22 at 2015 11:38 AM

SGT James Sims — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:38:49 -0400

Why incentivize PT, that's only part of the expectations of severing in the military and too much emphasis is placed there. It has been my experience that when someone is great at PT they are praised even if their job performance is severely lacking. There are standards for a reason too much focus blows it out of proportion!

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 11:51 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:51:28 -0400

Do well get promoted. Don't do well, meet your terminal rank. Why does everything need to incentivised? Does everyone really need a trophy? What would Gen Curtis Lemay say to that?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 11:52 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:52:21 -0400

Man that is a good idea. I can't I have ever heard of anything like this taking place. I like it. When I take a command I will be doing this. If I were higher on the food chain I would do something similar to the what the Marines do. You get above 90% then you don't have to worry about weight. I always get above 90%. My last was 287. But I like to eat and I like to lift. The only time I was able to pass my height weight was when I just finished Ranger School. What kills me is that I really have to watch what I eat and cut when I am about to take a test. I work out 5 times a weeks. I run a lot. But I am don't have a small frame nor do I care to be skinny. I may have a few extra pounds but if I have a near 300 why should it care. I am not failing fitness by any means.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Oct 22 at 2015 12:02 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:02:53 -0400

(Full sarcasm coming)

Do we incentivize the naturally smart?

We already place a lot of weight on Physical Fitness. Probably too much, considering that it is a measure of Health.

The USMC gives promotion points not just for the PFT (& CFT), but also weights PRO/CON based on PFT for Cpl & Sgt. The PFT Score is listed on our FitRep as well. It's just something that is expected to be maintained. I'm assuming the Army (and other Services) has a similar scheme or system.

PT Scores are an "easy" metric. Not a "good" metric. Everyone should be in good physical condition. Absolutely. But being in good physical condition is the reward. It means not being winded when you walk up a mountain. It means not throwing up after a 6 mile run. It means not having to listen to some #^%#$& Sgt yammer about PT. Those are the incentives.

Response by SrA Kevin Ridenhour made Oct 22 at 2015 12:12 PM

SrA Kevin Ridenhour — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:12:03 -0400

Staying in should be incentive enough for anyone to want to stay fit. And for those that are over max weight, all need to be taped, and moved to the fat boy program if required. If under the BMI, then kudos, you scored higher on the test.

Response by MSgt Matthew Meindl made Oct 22 at 2015 12:24 PM

MSgt Matthew Meindl — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:24:09 -0400

Already is an incentive to score high by being able to test once a year rather than twice. Recognition boards can work two ways: 1) Publicly praising those who excel, and 2) Making it obvious by absence of name, who is not excelling.

When "excelling" is required rather than recognized, it has become a standard. By enforcing standards failure, people will make up their own mind on how far they want to distance themselves from the punitive actions and in turn decide how far beyond "average" they want to be.

Unless the performance system only has two outcomes (pass or fail), average people should be accepted (and recognized as such) as average. Those excelling should be allowed to excell. People are individuals and unique, don't let the uniform fool you into thinking they are cookie cutter standard on the inside also. Don't push average people into excellence and don't diminish the excellent performers by making them average.

Standards are around for a reason. MEET or EXCEED the standards. If FAILING to MEET the standards, correct as required.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Oct 22 at 2015 12:26 PM

SN Greg Wright — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:26:51 -0400

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member I thought everyone was already incentivized? 'Pass the test or get the boot' ?

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Oct 22 at 2015 12:37 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:37:43 -0400

It should be about personal pride. No incentive should be needed

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 22 at 2015 1:24 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:24:05 -0400

Every Friday we played flag football. The team that was scored on did push ups or sit ups. It was a fun way to run a lot and build camaraderie.

Response by CMSgt David Stubblefield made Oct 22 at 2015 1:36 PM

CMSgt David Stubblefield — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:36:58 -0400

One year between tests for scoring 90 or above is pretty good incentive. One of our core values is Excellence in all We Do...that should drive people to do the best they can and score as high as possible. I don't think any other type of incentive is needed.

Response by SPC David S. made Oct 22 at 2015 2:17 PM

SPC David S. — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:17:05 -0400

I don't like the idea of incentive's for meeting standards. What's next a day off for showing up on time. If anything dock pay for failing - as you are being paid on the expectation of being physically fit for duty. Unless your maxing out the PT there's room for improvement. If the SM shows gains then great if not mandatory PT.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 2:17 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:17:42 -0400

We already do. You get a year instead of 6 months to test again.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Oct 22 at 2015 3:24 PM

MSgt Michael Smith — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 15:24:40 -0400

Perhaps a 24 hour pass? Though I don't think you really need to do anything at all --the praise for the excellence should be enough.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 3:24 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 15:24:43 -0400

You get to keep your job in the military?

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Oct 22 at 2015 3:51 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 15:51:08 -0400

Just curious... Is it me, or is anyone else wondering why she's wearing head phones, and why the other one is dressed in black...? o_O

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 6:31 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:31:16 -0400

Should we have an incentive for those who score well at other mandatory requirements?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 22 at 2015 6:44 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:44:56 -0400

At Ft Riley I planned a river run that was 3 miles to the dam. At the end of the run we had a hot breakfast for the soldiers and vans to bring them back.

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Oct 22 at 2015 7:08 PM

SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 19:08:09 -0400

Let us do our own PT (no unit PT). If we are scoring that high, then we probably know how to keep ourselves scoring that high, and we don't need group PT to keep us at that level. I get that some unit PT would still be necessary at times.

A day off would be great, too.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Oct 22 at 2015 7:31 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 19:31:14 -0400

None needed, you already get a year of from PT testing, that should be enough. Sure, scoring above 90 is great, but are we adding incentive to exceeding every other standard? Came to work early and stayed late every day for 6 months get day off? Passed your PME with an 90 or higher get a day off, etc, etc, etc.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 8:18 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 20:18:15 -0400

Does this sound familiar? Integrity First, Service Before Self, and EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO!! You are expected to live the Air Force Core Values. So, the answer I have is NO!

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made Oct 23 at 2015 12:04 AM

Maj Mike Sciales — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 00:04:07 -0400

How about you get to keep your job in an era of force reduction? Sorry, it's just a condition of continued employment. Good news is, if you don't smoke, drink or have too much sex you'll live longer. Well, at least it will seem longer.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2015 12:12 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 00:12:51 -0400

While all leadership and support should accentuate the positive, you cant throw candy for doing well in PT which is a requirement of all soldiers.

Response by SSgt Paul Esquibel made Oct 23 at 2015 12:25 AM

SSgt Paul Esquibel — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 00:25:20 -0400

I'm curious to know why anyone feels they need an incentive to do what is required? We are not children and do not get a cookie for doing our jobs, the standard is pass or fail getting a 90% allows you to only test once a year, what more does a person think they deserve? Personally if they were do allow it within the Promotion category they would then have to revamp the entire promotion system and base it off the Marine Corp or Army standards of points, then you could have an incentive to getting a 90% or higher as everyone would be able to to achieve those points or not, or be able to make up points in one area to fill another.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Oct 23 at 2015 12:39 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 00:39:18 -0400

I really wish SMs weren't allowed to wear headphones and listen to music while PT'ing in uniform. I mean, who approved that? And I'm not even a stickler about these things...I was always told I was too laid back on regs like this.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2015 12:57 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 00:57:39 -0400

Reward for doing your job? Just punish those who do not meet expectations. That's like saying you get a cookie if your show up to work on time.

Response by TSgt David L. made Oct 23 at 2015 1:31 AM

TSgt David L. — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 01:31:50 -0400

The incentive is you don't have a redo and you are both able to do your job and get to stay off of the Commander's/First Shirt's Shit List. Incentive? I think so. But I'm old skool... :-)

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Oct 23 at 2015 2:35 AM

SrA Matthew Knight — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 02:35:31 -0400

I've never been a fan of the incentives mainly because it seems like even the once a year test is ignored in a sense. What I mean by that is although you only have to test once a year many units will still make you do mock tests with everyone else which seems like it defeats the purpose. Sure it's not a legit PT test but I have also seen units treat members scores on the mock tests as though they were real by forcing members to do more PT if they get below a 90 on the mock.

The once a years stipulation is good enough as it is if units would actually abide by that and allow those people to not have to do the mocks as well, at least if they don't want to. Sure one can argue that by not forcing them to do a mock once in a while you will never know if they are good to go for their next test, especially after one year but the stipulation for failing a test is the same regardless of your past performance. You fail, your next test is in 6 months or less and you go to a mandatory wellness class and remedial PT. That in and of itself should be enough of an incentive to do better.

The best way I have seen it done was how my flight at my last base did it. 90% and up and you didn't have to do any unit PT to include mock tests. All PT for them was on their own. 85%-89% had to go to PT once a week. Below 85% was PT twice a week. The PT sessions carried out throughout the week we always handled by our flights PTLs and were always intended to help you improve rather than maintain while occasionally involving a mock to be sure you were at least maintaining. For those that failed, you would be required to go to the two flight PT sessions a week as well as make it to the bases get well or get fit program what ever they called it, I never had to myself so I don't know what it entailed but I heard that they could usually cut a minute or two off of runs at least.

With the way my flight did it there was enough incentive for people to strive for 90s while still providing a beneficial PT program for those that didn't or those who just wanted to voluntarily brush up on their PT. Unsurprisingly we for a while had one of the lowest failure rates for PT amongst our squadron. We made it work and no one complained about it.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Oct 23 at 2015 8:17 AM

Col Joseph Lenertz — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 08:17:43 -0400

I figured most of the incentive for fitness and sports are "Bagging Rights", but while it's OK to brag on your team, it's kinda lame to brag on yourself. So I just posted the PT scores of everybody in the unit, including myself. I may have been violating a sensitivity rule of some sort...I don't know. But profiles, waivers, and failures went down, and "Excellents" went up. It worked, so it may not be allowed.

Response by MSgt Jim Wolverton made Oct 23 at 2015 11:09 AM

MSgt Jim Wolverton — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:09:22 -0400

No we shouldn't give someone a boost for promotion because of getting a 90%, that's silly. Case in point, I had a guy who worked for me that was a squadron PTL and was so are up about PT, that I couldn't count on him for basic pro super/7-level tasks. He was worthless but he looked great in uniform and could tear up a PT test. The most worthless TSgt I had ever had the displeasure to work with.

Response by MSgt Jim Wolverton made Oct 23 at 2015 11:13 AM

MSgt Jim Wolverton — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 11:13:09 -0400

Fitness programs should be about a member's health, that's more important for the average AF member than a 90% or higher. Problem is, the AF doesn't view the program that way unfortunately.

Response by SSgt Nate Eberle made Oct 29 at 2015 5:11 PM

SSgt Nate Eberle — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:11:36 -0400

start by providing real pt gear instead of the cheapest and most uncomfortable clothes available. I hated our PT gear...to the point of embarrassment. I do hope that in the 5 years since I was discharged that the AF has upgraded the PT gear.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2015 5:54 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:54:53 -0400

PT is only one standard within Air Force; unfortunately it is the only standard held to a score that groups you into a category. Just imagine if all of the standards had something similar......ahhhh evaluations would be so much easier! :)

Response by MSgt Stephan Hall made Oct 31 at 2015 11:32 AM

MSgt Stephan Hall — Sat, 31 Oct 2015 11:32:16 -0400

Interesting that some feel providing points on Promotion opportunity to those that have great personal respect and self-esteem would be unfair. Doing your best against your own personal goals is as fair as it gets. The score you receive is your personal goal, it's your opportunity to excel, nobody else has anything to do with the score, except those encouraging you on to the finish line.

Response by SFC Richard Haugh made Oct 31 at 2015 12:12 PM

SFC Richard Haugh — Sat, 31 Oct 2015 12:12:17 -0400

This sounds like it needs to be a CASE STUDY for one of your young LTs... There are many things I learnt at Ft. Bragg and Pride in one Self was huge and one of the corner stones for excellence was PT. Yeah we got the Certificates and sometimes (rarely) got a coin from the CSM or BN CMDR but the best incentives came from my comrades who would acknowledge the huge amount of Situps or my speed in the 2 mile run as well as the side bets and challenges amongst my comrades. Your answer is simple Conduct a Physical Fitness Case Study on the soldiers in places like any Airborne Unit / Rangers / Special Forces / and alike minded units (Army of course and we know all branches of the service has their hardcore units as well to study)... and your going to find out it starts with the INDIVIDUAL (nothing the military taught us...) then it just grows from there this is where the Military does a great job of providing guys like us with great competitors all under one roof! Great Units will capitalize on this and reward accordantly to feed our drive. Sometimes it's a simple as placing the best of the best boards up in the Orderly Room / Training area so we can see who we have to beat to get on "the board" - just like the names on the gym in High School..... No different! Just my personal thoughts....

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2015 5:56 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Nov 2015 17:56:11 -0500

I would think maintaining your livelihood is enough incentive.

Response by Col Robert Fabian made Nov 5 at 2015 12:44 PM

Col Robert Fabian — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 12:44:00 -0500

Incentivize exceptional duty performance, not a semi-annual fitness test. As a commander, I cared far more about how well my Airmen could get the mission done than I did about an 80% vs 90% passing fitness score. Failing is another matter and is already well disincentivized.

We're the Air Force, not the PT force. A gym rat with perfect PT scores who doesn't know which end of a wrench to hold is just dead weight to the guys getting the mission done.

Response by LTJG Robert M. made Nov 5 at 2015 3:53 PM

LTJG Robert M. — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 15:53:54 -0500

Can't speak for other services, but isn't it a part of your annual evaluations? Health & Wellness was on my USCG OER form.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Nov 6 at 2015 11:38 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 11:38:36 -0500

No incentives...the purpose of any military PT program is to ensure that the individual is ready at a moments notice to deploy and do their job without any fitness issues. This is an entitlement generation issue...what do I get out of it? Why should I strive for excellent on my PT test? Where is my trophy...doesn't everyone make the team and get one? NO.
How about this...don't pass, lose your job. Pass and you get to keep serving. It should be understood that fitness is part of your duty and is a personal responsibility to ensure that you meet the standards set forth for duty. Do you get an incentive for showing up to work every day? Absolutely not, it is expected as part of your duty to be at work...so is fitness...pass/fail and move on.