How would you handle potential unequal treatment of PT standards within a unit?

2016-05-10T20:13:03-04:00

About 3-4 months ago I was put in for a waiver by my NCOIC for E3 to E4.
It was denied based on PT. (I did not fail my PT test but by no means was it spectacular). Totally understandable as to why I did not get it. I need to work on my PT to make it better and deserving of early promotion. No issue here.
As of now, I will be getting promoted (at 24 months, no waiver). However there is a female in my section that has not passed a PT test since last year. My 1SG pushed to get her waiver approved and it did. The OPS SGM in my unit talked to her and said she needed to improve on her PT but that she will be getting the waiver.
So I want to know if I should speak with my EO adviser and/or IG.
I don't believe my unit is following regulation with PT. We deploy soon and our section needs people, so I feel they aren't doing the appropriate action towards her based off of that fact. From my understanding, failing two PT tests is grounds for chapter paperwork to be initiated if they have counseled/flagged her which they have not. So my question honestly is what do you all think and should I talk to someone?

Response by PFC James Franklin made May 10 at 2016 8:19 PM

2016-05-10T20:19:16-04:00

You'd be amazed how common that is. My understanding is that they promote females because they're afraid it'll look like discrimination if they don't, so you need to call them on it. Tell your squad leader, and have the two of you go to the CSM because this is a violation of regulations at the Company level. If Company is in the wrong, Battalion needs to get involved. ESPECIALLY when you're deploying soon.

Response by PFC Michelena Halley made May 10 at 2016 8:25 PM

2016-05-10T20:25:02-04:00

You do need to bring it to light the way James Franklin said to do so is the correct way in my opinion but my sure you use chain of command appropriate and be professional about it.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 8:30 PM

2016-05-10T20:30:30-04:00

You always have the option to talk to the EO Rep or the IG, but I reccomend you bring your concerns up your chain of command (at least to your Company Commander). There may be more going on in this situation than what you know. Maybe (and I am just speaking in hypotheticals) the other Solder has excelled in areas outside PT that warrant her waiver; maybe your leadership thinks you are deficient in areas (I am not accusing, just speaking hypotheticals) besides your PT and didn't support the promotion based on those concerns.

If it is a "cut and dry" case based on gender discrimination (in this case against males), then the Chain of Command will be forced to fix it. That being said, in my experience (starting with Private Snyder to SGT Snyder, then LT Snyder to MAJ Snyder) 95% of the time, the leadership in the military tries to do the right thing for the right reason...very rarely does it turn out otherwise.

Good luck, and I hope this works out well for you.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 8:30 PM

2016-05-10T20:30:44-04:00

I have been in for many moons been up and down rank more than once. The best advice is to push on. This is going to happen more then it should. We had a female in Iraq that is she was a male would have been charged with malingering. All she got was a stop doing that and put in charge of a group. I learned of it don't affect me just push on you keep your rank longer lol

Response by SGT Nia Chiaraluce made May 10 at 2016 8:54 PM

2016-05-10T20:54:34-04:00

SGT(P) Lauren Manuel hit the proverbial nail on the head. Gender cannot be involved if it is that is a huge EO complaint. The other peers that are weighing in are giving valid advice, however pounding down the CSM's door over a speculation or suspicion is only going to validate their decision not to advance you on a waiver. With rank comes responsibility, but most importantly perspective. Take a step back gather your emotions and be objective not emotional. The Army isn't about gender discrimination, and no we don't get promoted faster or because it'll look bad if they don't. Gather the facts, use your NCO support channel and be humble with yourself.

Response by CPL Ricky Vasquez made May 10 at 2016 9:41 PM

2016-05-10T21:41:12-04:00

Your right Soldier... I don't understand why your unit would pass you over for promotion like that.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 10:16 AM

2016-05-11T10:16:05-04:00

I recommend you speak with your CoC first. Without hearing all sides, it appears that there is some shady stuff going on.......but appearances can be deceiving. Again, talk with your CoC if you are truly concerned. Because, if she has not passed an APFT in over a year, then she should be flagged and should not have gotten a waiver for promotion.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made May 11 at 2016 4:52 PM

2016-05-11T16:52:57-04:00

Based on the information you provided, you have a legitimate beef. However, I would advise that you have your facts straight before bringing this up to your chain of command. A Soldier with a x2 APFT failure should be flagged and not eligible for the waiver or promotion. If that is the case, that is not only unethical, but illegal. But be careful on insinuating that to your CoC., as that is a serious allegation. TIS waivers for E4 are limited, and it is the commands decision on the criteria to approve them, if otherwise eligible. Usually there are multiple eligible Soldiers for 1 or 2 waivers, so it often comes down to PT if all other performance metrics are equal. I would first ask to see your commander/1SG on the open door policy to clarify your denial of the waiver. If still not satisfied and you are certain that you were passed over in favor of a Soldier who is not eligible for promotion, then contact IG. Just be sure that you know what you are doing in blowing the whistle and opening a Pandora's box. May not be worth it, and you may be better off waiting for the next waiver.

Response by PFC Bruce Lawrence made May 11 at 2016 8:12 PM

2016-05-11T20:12:42-04:00

Not sure how the New Army works, but 20 years ago when I was in, if you did something like that without at least giving your Squad Leader a chance to work on it with the Senior NCO's/Company Commander your butt would have been in a sling. I would go with Major Snyder's recommendation on this one. If you talk to them and they say something more concrete (rather than your perceived accounting of what has happened) again seek the guidance of a senior NCO, 1st Sgt is always a good place to start on something that could have big blow back for you with command if you have a misstep. He or she will/should have your best interests as the basis of their counseling. Once again this was how the old army worked so might be out in left field now, not sure.

Response by SGT Chris Hill made May 13 at 2016 11:38 AM

2016-05-13T11:38:27-04:00

Welcome to the double standards and favoritisms of the army. You're seeing the roots of why many are getting out. I lost an NCO of the quarter board to a female who couldn't recite the NCO creed verbadem and barely passed her APFT. I was told I lost to her because "she knew all the AR's", and I forgot 2 of them. I was scolded by the CSM that I am supposed to know all my stuff and my APFT score wasn't a 300.

At that point I knew I wanted to get out of the army. So glad I did!!!!

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 1:17 PM

2016-05-13T13:17:37-04:00

What waiver? Is she pregnant? On profile? What is the duration of the profile?
Each case has to be evaluated on its individual merits. The policy is initiate separation (chapter) OR bar to reenlist meant but it does not say it had to be approved. It may seem unfair to you but if you are fully briefed up on that individual Soldier's issues and fully understand your commanders intent behind the decision; then your unit has even more serious issues because that's not your business. There may be more to it than you know. You will degrade your resiliency if you're overly worried about someone else. Do you know how many PFCs were eligible for waiver? Do you know how many waivers were available? Do you know if BN pooled the waivers to allocate elsewhere? I do think that you may have a valid complaint on Soldiers being promoted who do not meet criteria such as having a current APFT.

Response by Sgt Carlos Barrera made May 13 at 2016 1:38 PM

2016-05-13T13:38:15-04:00

I would go and talk to a JAG officer, your unit is screwing you; they are giving preferential treatment. Make a huge stinker, push for an investigation, do what you need to do to bring this to the light.

Response by Sgt Carlos Barrera made May 13 at 2016 1:39 PM

2016-05-13T13:39:31-04:00

I would go to see a JAG officer, you are being screwed, she is getting preferential treatment.

Response by SFC Roberto Garza Jr. made May 13 at 2016 2:39 PM

2016-05-13T14:39:37-04:00

I would address the issue with my chain of command first, start at first line and work your way up. Ask if their is counseling to justify why you are not deserving of the waiver. Many units compare overall stats of Soldiers to decide on the waiver. Ask for a reason why and ask to be counseled on the situation to have a clear and concise plan on how to improve for the next waiver. In another sense this is a learning experience for you to learn how to handle or not handle these issues in the future. Don't focus on the other Soldier, focus on you and continue to improve. Stay motivated and focused your time will come.

Response by CW3 Catherine Silvestri made May 13 at 2016 2:54 PM

2016-05-13T14:54:10-04:00

PFC, Have you spoken to your squad leader and/or platoon sergeant about your concern? I always recommend talking to the first line supervisor first, focusing on your situation and promotion concerns up front, as comparisons are often challenging, regardless. If you feel there is an EO issue and that she is not worthy of a waiver, perhaps bring that up after you discuss your own situation would be the first approach from my vantage point. I believe we've all witnessed questionable decisions in our careers, but I've found focusing on our own individual goals and readiness to achieve them puts us on the high road...God speed to you and thank you for serving.

Response by SSG Joseph Henderson made May 13 at 2016 2:57 PM

2016-05-13T14:57:13-04:00

If she failed an APFT she should not be receiving any favorable action. Before you go knocking on doors make sure you have your ducks in a row. When I was eligible for a waiver to E4 the company I was in would hold a board to see who was more deserving. The commander did this to make sure the more qualified PFC would get the waiver. But that was back in 1998 so things have changed.

Response by CPL Troy Edin made May 13 at 2016 4:00 PM

2016-05-13T16:00:47-04:00

Chain of command buddy

Response by SGT Stacey Nelson made May 13 at 2016 4:00 PM

2016-05-13T16:00:59-04:00

I don't think you understand how waivers work. Waivers are when the commander circles yes or no and someone goes into eMILPO and does the action. Maybe you should learn what you're talking about first before you rant on social media.

Response by SSG Dennis Grossmann made May 13 at 2016 4:20 PM

2016-05-13T16:20:22-04:00

There should have been a flag and no favoritable action on the PT failures. I don't want you to think that this is I'll advised, but try to document this, wait, see if another soldier gets early promotion based on PT failure, document again and have all dates. Then you can go through your chain, respectfully use your commanders open door, EO, IG, or the SGM, most CSMs have got nothing better to do besides tell about grass walking anyway... J/K all CSM's out there.
I give you this warning though, there are supposed to be no reprocussions, but.... If you are found to be the complainer, prepare for lots of b.s. duties.
Enjoy your promotion, improve on everything, get your online done as high as you can go. Then request a waiver for your 5 or enjoy the sham shield.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 4:20 PM

2016-05-13T16:20:48-04:00

you are correct although failing the first is when the flag gets thrown, period its in the regs, two failures you are right chapter out, getting a waiver for what is my question, pregnancy?, then that would make her non deployabe, if you passed and she didnt then you shouldve been promoted, as long as you met army standards for the apft you shouldnt have been passed over. personnally i would go ig if the command didnt answer your complaint.

Response by SSG Gregory Williams made May 13 at 2016 5:21 PM

2016-05-13T17:21:21-04:00

Start at your section leader . Ask him or her. " SGT. I'm trying better understand what I need to do to better myself as a soldier so that next time I can be prepared". You can even go as far as to ask " SGT in what areas was soldier A more deserving than myself" . just ensure you are respectful and do not bi-pass any avenues .

I was kicked out of WLC for race issues . I did file an IG complaint . 18 months later the commandant of the NCO academy was forced to retired . That didn't change the fact that it slowed my progression and put my promotion to SSG back almost 2 years because my Unit refused to send me to a WLC at another Post . No matter wether you are right or wrong when you file an IG complaint you will be shunned by you present unit . So be prepared for the fall out . Many soldiers file complaints with no merit . In fact I would say the majority of complaints are bogus . Because of this it has put a stigma over the entire military . i looked ones at it this way . After being booting from a school for racism I decided I was not re-enlisting so I had nothing to lose. I did however think about the soldiers that would experience the same nonsens after me and the ones that came before . The best thing for the army was for this CSM to be gone so I fought to expose it . So weigh what's important to you , see if you have a legit issue . If you do have a legit issue be prepared to follow through till the end . No one is shunned more in the military than someone that has filed a false complaint or given up after causing a problem .

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 8:47 PM

2016-05-13T20:47:56-04:00

If she hasn't passed an APFT, she is required to be flagged, and not promoted period.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 10:06 AM

2016-05-16T10:06:43-04:00

I wouldn't. I talked to the IG while on active duty and not only did things go unchanged, I was hit for speaking out.

Response by PFC Brian Lesnikowski made May 17 at 2016 7:00 AM

2016-05-17T07:00:35-04:00

Bust your ASS in the evening. Hit the gym and the track. Workout with someone this way you can both push each other to improve your scores. DONT GIVE THEM ANY REASON TO NOT PROMOTE YOU. BECAUSE THEY WONT.

Response by MSG Monique Martin made May 19 at 2016 1:18 PM

2016-05-19T13:18:34-04:00

Yes, you should talk to someone. You should go to your first line leader and ask them "what can I do to better support the mission and improve our effectiveness?" "What do you need from me?" "what areas do we need more attention?" You are getting ready to deploy - spend your energies on things that matter.

regarding the unit following regulation with PT...I say "Stay in your lane". You should be concerned about your career and self improvement and not comparing yourself to another Soldier. Chances are that they have actually done everything correctly with her and there are details they didn't feel they needed to come and discuss with a PFC because it is not your business..
You state that your concern is that they are not following the regulations regarding PT, and that you have no issue with the fact you didn't get promoted. The way you presented your claim indicates you do have a problem with not being promoted, or that you have a problem with a female getting promoted when you don't feel it is deserved, in fact, you feel she should be chaptered out and you are willing to go to the IG, EO, CoC due to this perceived disregard of regulations.
You state they haven't counseled or flagged her. These are actions that a PFC should not be privy to. If there are legitimate reasons they haven't flagged her, those are also not your business. If your command freely shares this information with you, that would be the bigger issue.

Stay safe during your deployment - Your team needs you.

Response by MSG Monique Martin made May 19 at 2016 1:44 PM

2016-05-19T13:44:29-04:00

Yes, you should go to your first line leader and ask "How can I improve our mission effectiveness?" "What do you need from me?" "Are there areas we need to improve on?" You are getting deployed and that is more important than this.

As a PFC I thought I knew everything about everybody in my unit too. As you move up in rank, maturity and professionalism, you will realize that you really don't. Unless you are reading this individuals personnel, training and medical files, you really don't know if they have or haven't taken or passed a record APFT, if they have or haven't been counseled, or if the process of chaptering them out has or hasn't been initiated. These are things your command and the Soldier wouldn't come and discuss with you.

"Last year" was less than 6 months ago. No reason to chapter her out.

Beyond PT your unit may have had other reasons to not sign a waiver - it is subjective. Maybe they need you to have some time to grow and develop leadership skills.

Stay in your lane, Prepare for deployment, come back safe.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2016 9:08 AM

2016-06-01T09:08:14-04:00

I would if that

Response by SPC Mason Mullins made Jun 12 at 2016 2:45 PM

2016-06-12T14:45:51-04:00

Her promotion, at the end of the day, has no direct impact on YOUR career. Whether or not she gets promoted to E4 will not change anything for you. E4 is a give-me rank. If it was a slotted position E5+, your grievance would make more sense to me, because she would be holding a slot a more qualified soldier could have.
I don't know where you are deploying to, but if it is a combat zone you need to focus on getting yourself in deployment condition both mentally and physically. Get your head in the game and worry about doing your best to execute your missions for yourself and your team, the rest will fall into place.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2016 6:43 PM

2016-06-12T18:43:29-04:00

Do more pushups, do more situps, run faster. Discrimination in America is apart of life. Be so good that NOT promoting you will be a blatent dereliction of duty. I've dealt with some form of discrimination for most of my career. I had a 1SG tell me that I shouldn't be promoted because I was too young and couldn't buy beer yet. Really? Needless to say the BDE CSM disagreed with him and I was boarded and promoted a month later. Soldier, I promise you, it'll get better if you get better, good luck!!

Response by SN Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2016 1:38 PM

2016-06-21T13:38:16-04:00

work harder, train harder and show them what you are really made of, it is a mindset that you need to train for as well. How bad do you want to succeed?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2018 8:10 AM

2018-12-27T08:10:38-05:00

How did someone who has failed PT getting a waiver for promotion????