If I get a article 15, then on top of that a counseling, what will happen more then likely?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Feb 2020 23:02:53 -0500

If I get a article 15 then on top of that a councilng what will happen more then likly?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2020 11:13 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Feb 2020 23:13:53 -0500

Depends on the severity of the article 15, what its regarding, and what the counseling is in reference too.

Honestly, you left this set up pretty vague and it's not looking good for the home team with the information you've provided.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Feb 17 at 2020 6:31 AM

SGT Robert Wager — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 06:31:49 -0500

You are at a crossroads in your military career. You need to decide before your chain of command decides for you if you are going learn from these decisions.

You received NJP for disrespecting an NCO and now you are not owning it. Whether you believe you were wrongly convicted or not, to your chain of command you are guilty. Now you have been counseled for destroying government property.

I have a suggestion for you, get with your squad leader and platoon sergeant and ask what you can do to prove to them that you are worth their time and effort to go to bat for you to keep you employed. Do this in such a way to make them truly believe you are sorry for your mistakes and you are ready to start over with a healthy attitude. Otherwise I see a chapter packet being made against you for a pattern of misconduct.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Feb 17 at 2020 7:15 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:15:10 -0500

OK. Here are the basic levels and allowable punishments.
There are 3 types of UCMJ Article 15 punishment:

Type Punishment
Summarized extra duty for 14 days
restriction for 14 days
oral reprimand or admonition
Company Grade extra duty for 14 days
restriction for 14 days
oral reprimand or admonition
forfeiture of seven days base pay
reduction in rank of one grade (E-4 & below only)
Field Grade extra duty for 45 days
restriction for 60 days (maximum of 45 days if combined with extra duty)
oral reprimand or admonition
forfeiture of one-half base pay per month for two months
reduction in rank to E-1 (E-4 and below) or reduction in rank of one grade (E-5 & E-6 only)
So punishment is dictated by the level of command that gives the Article 15. At your rank, other than the listed punishments, not much else happens and even a Field Grade Article 15 only stays in your file for two years or you PCS, so it's not a death sentence and needs to be looked at as a chance to reach back and pull your head out of your ass.
You can refuse an Article 15, but I highly suggest talking to Trial Defense Services before even considering it. Refusing one means you are choosing a Court Martial, which leaves you with a Federal Criminal Record and most likely will end you military career if you lose.
Since you say you are E-1, you won't get reduced. You mostly likely will lose pay and get extra duty and restricted.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2020 10:15 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:15:12 -0500

At this point it’s too late to worry about what could happen. You’re grown now, no one can fix what you created but you....welcome to adulthood where there are consequences for your action(s). Take responsibility for your wrong doing, fix it and do the right thing at all times.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Feb 17 at 2020 10:38 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:38:24 -0500

If you received UCMJ for an offense and then shortly after received a negative counseling for a separate offense, you are writing your own ticket out of service. It is easy to overcome an AR 15 by getting passed your mistakes and becoming a strong Soldier as opposed staying on a negative path. If you are willing to commit I am sure your NCOs are willing to work with you. Your decision either way.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Feb 17 at 2020 11:40 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:40:06 -0500

Your question is too vague, but we'll try. A Company Art15, I suppose, then a Negative? Counseling? You do know that there are both positive and negative counseling right? OK- for a cherry in the service, you have 2 choices- get your act together and move forward- or continue in failure and show that you are not worth the effort and be chaptered out. The whole point is you can learn for your mistakes and overcome them, or not, and it is YOUR call- no one else's.

Response by SPC Jesse Schultz made Feb 17 at 2020 1:18 PM

SPC Jesse Schultz — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:18:10 -0500

Whatever happens, just take your hits and keep pushing. This doesn’t define you unless you let allow it to. My suggestion is that you should stop worrying about what will happen, and start focusing on how you will earn their respect back after it is all over. I recommend winning a soldier of the month board or going to a low level competition, as well as excelling at PT for a good chunk of time... on top of correcting the behavior that got you in trouble, of course.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Feb 17 at 2020 4:39 PM

SSG Brian G. — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:39:40 -0500

That depends on you. You are young to the Army and low in rank. Yeah, an Article 15 sucks but it is not career ending unless you go into that death spiral . Treat it as a wake the fuck up call and treat it accordingly. Correct whatever deficiency in your soldiering that led to it and strive to not repeat that mistake or any other like it, again.

As to the counseling? Those are nothing. They are neither good or bad. They are a statement of where you are and what you have done or perceived to have done and what if any actions you need to take. It's like a checkup. Read it, acknowledge it, challenge it if you like.

You need to decide what you want here. Do you want the Army as a career or are you a one and done soldier? Decide and do so quickly. You now have your CoC eyes on you and they are watching you to see what your next move is going to be.

Good luck.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2020 4:41 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:41:19 -0500

It’s a summarized article 15

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2020 4:41 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:41:43 -0500

If you've received the ART 15 for disrespect to an NCO, and you're claiming that it really wasn't like that, it raises eyebrows when you claim it wasn't really like that. This may cause others to question your integrity and damage your credibility.
There is zero reason for you to have been wrestling anywhere but the gym or outside. Further, unless another Soldier has admitted to taking part in the wrestling, your credibility would take another hit. Even if there was another Soldier who admitted to wrestling somewhere you had no business wrestling, damage to property aside, it reasonably raises concern about your judgment, and maybe, your impulse control.
Your profile shows MP, where impulse control and judgment are extremely important.
With regard to what can happen. You can own your mistakes, accept your punishment, complete any corrective training, make the appropriate apologies, and DEFINITELY express your desire to remain in the Army. Do the opposite, and you'll likely find yourself facing a chapter.
The time to fix this by changing course is now.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Feb 17 at 2020 4:57 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:57:13 -0500

This is all vague. I dont want to know. Go to TDS.

Did the Commander suspend all or part of the article 15 punishment? If so, the commander can vacate that and carry out that punishment.

Counseling is not “punitive”. It documents a conversation. Depending on why you were counseled, it could be part of a pattern of misconduct and leveraged into a ch 13.

Response by SGT Michael Van Geertruy made Feb 19 at 2020 8:27 PM

SGT Michael Van Geertruy — Wed, 19 Feb 2020 20:27:03 -0500

Take the article 15 and do your time/fine/whatever. Don't screw up again and in a few months, nobody will care.

However, even after getting punished, you made an adult choice to screw up again. You need to decide if you even want to be in the military. Seriously, this is a volunteer force, nobody forced you to be there, and you will get a chance to leave honorably in a couple of years. If you keep screwing up though, the choice will be made for you. You made a shit sandwich, eat it, grow up, and move on.

If you want to stay in the military, listen to your NCO and follow his/her recommendations in the counseling. If you choose to continue screwing up, and you should strongly consider ETSing when it is time.

Response by SPC John Tacetta made Feb 20 at 2020 6:34 PM

SPC John Tacetta — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 18:34:13 -0500

I had a squad leader who had a court martial under his belt and he managed to retire with a full pension. More than likely this can just be a bump in the road for you if you can manage to take it in stride and square your shit away. It's all up to you and what you want to do in the service. From E1 to O9: make formations, keep your kit clean and follow orders. Sounds simple. Right?

Remember, you need to make grade to stay in, so a string of Article 15s will not help that along. You can still leave with good paper (and a bad reenlistment code) as an E1 so long as you don't commit a crime under the UCMJ or get chaptered out. Remember: it's NON JUDICIAL PUNISHMENT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2020 8:08 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2020 20:08:30 -0500

The ultimate authority on if non judicial punishment should be imposed is the Commander. If it is a summarized or company grade for someone of your rank, then the company commander can impose such punishment. Field grade article 15s are handled by the battalion commander. Have you gotten the article 15, or have you been told you have been recommended for one? When negative action is possible, you are typically flagged for commander's investigation from what it sounds like to me. This counseling would likely be done by the commander or their enlisted advisor. If you go to your proceedings and are found guilty by the commander and punishment is instated, then you should receive another counselings stating what is expected of you during your punishment phase (which is a separate flag). This counseling may say due to restriction that you are restricted to the barracks, DFAC, chapel, or whatever the commander decides. It is important to understand that counseling are NOT always negative - they can be negative, positive, informative, etc. Make sure you ask questions and understand exactly what is outlined in the counseling. You have just as much of a part in the counseling process as your superior. Lastly, if you are found guilty through your proceedings, remember that it is not the end of the world. Article 15 is used to correct minor infractions under the UCMJ. As a junior soldier, it will be stored locally and will not stick with you for your entire career. You can recover from that as long as you learn from your mistakes. All the best