SFC Private RallyPoint Member 93647 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>I've only seen very few officers being told that they failed at their job, but still see them pin on CPT bars later and be enroute to take a company after C/3. I've seen new NCOs  have more authority over people then the officer that was in front of the formation.  I know the machine keeps turning no matter what screw, nut, or bolt you put in it, but should we have a way to decomission a young officer quicker to junior enlisted ranks through trends and evaluations rather then continue to give more then half of them more as they go forward? </p><p>I've seen these officers get seperated from the force with minimum to pay back to the military, if any at all.  I've seen West Point grads  told to kick rocks after entering into the ranks, and left with a great education and no fullfilled obligation.  What are your thoughts?</p> 2014-04-04T15:19:04-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 93647

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>I've only seen very few officers being told that they failed at their job, but still see them pin on CPT bars later and be enroute to take a company after C/3. I've seen new NCOs  have more authority over people then the officer that was in front of the formation.  I know the machine keeps turning no matter what screw, nut, or bolt you put in it, but should we have a way to decomission a young officer quicker to junior enlisted ranks through trends and evaluations rather then continue to give more then half of them more as they go forward? </p><p>I've seen these officers get seperated from the force with minimum to pay back to the military, if any at all.  I've seen West Point grads  told to kick rocks after entering into the ranks, and left with a great education and no fullfilled obligation.  What are your thoughts?</p>

2014-04-04T15:19:04-04:00 2014-04-04T15:19:04-04:00 SSG Anthony Schoepp 93653

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I had a 1LT PL during a training exercise SHOOT his PSG in the upper arm due to improper target identification, lack of attention and failure to listen to the enlisted/NCOs around him...<br><br>Not only did after the investigation get 'sealed' did he pick up another infantry platoon, when we returned from deployment he pinned captain. I feel this was a failure on multiple levels and an example of the good ole boy system that can occur in different units.<br>

2014-04-04T15:27:18-04:00 2014-04-04T15:27:18-04:00 SFC William Swartz Jr 93673

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>My personal feeling is no, if they are considered a failure as a LT and rated in that manner, there should be no promotion to CPT. Most LTs are PLs, if they are not successful in the managing/leading of a small number of Soldiers with a relatively small amount of vehicles/equipment, why would or should they be placed in charge of a larger number of Soldiers or even more vehicles/equipment? I have seen plenty of less than deserving LTs removed as a tank PL and assigned as the ammo PL, because they couldn't perform the way they should. In my opinion, and I hold the same opinion of NCOs as well, if you perform so poorly or inadequately that you are removed from your MOS/career field, then you need to be shown the door, not "rewarded" for it.

2014-04-04T15:49:58-04:00 2014-04-04T15:49:58-04:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 93681

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>SFC Jolly,</p><p> </p><p>The answer is simple.  No.  Officers who fail at being a LT should not be promoted.  I once had a fellow Lieutenant who after 2 years as PL with 3PSGs and 2 COs, was simply untrainable.  She couldn't follow simple instructions, wouldn't listen to her PSGs or NCOs, has a list of excuses for every failure, and even had some serious personal relationship issues that interfered with work.  My CO did the right thing and would not recommend her for promotion to O-3.  The BN CO backed him up and it didn't happen.  Later, she got passed over again and she is now out of the Army.  We tried everything we could think of to get her proficient at her job, but it simply would not stick.  Even the BN CDR and CSM were left scratching their heads.  If it needs to happen, it can.  You just need to document why.</p>

2014-04-04T15:59:08-04:00 2014-04-04T15:59:08-04:00 COL Vincent Stoneking 93705

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I agree with CPT Johnson and SFC Swartz. Failure should not be rewarded with promotion. <div><br></div><div>As to the second half - "decommissioning to junior enlisted." No as well.  The Officer did not enlist, and has non enlistment agreement. Should they chose to enlist (assuming the Army found them worthy - Doubtful with a shrinking Army and what should be a few bad evals...), that is fine. However "decommissioning" them would put them into a contract they didn't sign, for work that they might well be unsuited for, and guarantee an unhappy barracks lawyer, who has a big chip on their shoulder - Likely to bring down the morale of the unit where they land.  </div><div><br></div><div>If they were prior enlisted, I believe reversion to their enlisted rank would be a viable option.  </div>

2014-04-04T16:19:51-04:00 2014-04-04T16:19:51-04:00 1SG Private RallyPoint Member 95805

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>Simple answer to original question. NO!</p><p> </p><p>Simple answer to subsequent question. NO. </p><p> </p><p>Don't take a PROBLEM from the officers and make them a problem for the enlisted, reserve etc. If the worst money problem we have in the military is "wasting" money on a few educations that we don't benefit from in terms of leadership, then we are doing pretty good in my opinion.</p>

2014-04-07T14:40:27-04:00 2014-04-07T14:40:27-04:00 SGT Brendan Beely 95886

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It's not just officers.  It's system wide.  Leaders are afraid to give sub-par performers accurate reviews because it will 'hurt their career,' not realizing that in doing so the entire force is being hurt.<div><br></div><div>How many times have NCOERs come back with 'change this, don't mention that, etc.' instead of accurately reflecting that sometimes, some people are just bad at what they do.  Or even OK - it seems like an endemic curse that every evaluation must shine and be filled with puppies and rainbows.  Fact is, some people do the bare minimum.  Some people are just bad at what they do.  Until the entire system changes, it will not get any better.</div>

2014-04-07T16:40:02-04:00 2014-04-07T16:40:02-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 95904

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>To caveat I'm doing this not for a solution but just gather information for further down the road.  To speak candidly I have a field grade officer that just isn't cutting it, and from my gatherings he has not changed for many years.  I've viewed his record and everyone reported the same from his LT days to promote ahead.  He was slotted for ILE but has chosen to retire now after being steered that way.  My boss ( a very senior field grade ) asked what should be his next course, and I gave him my two ideas.  I just care to be able to impose earlier courses of action or avenues before I'm asked again or a similar situation presents itself.

2014-04-07T16:59:37-04:00 2014-04-07T16:59:37-04:00 LTC Private RallyPoint Member 96037

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I think that we all have seen both officers and NCOs that should not be wearing the rank or even be in the uniform. With that being said we have to do our best to train these LTs and try to improve them to the point that they are productive. If they refuse to change or are not the type of officer that should have been accepted absolutely push them out of the military. I know I would not want to have them lead a company and potentially get people killed while deployed because they should have never been promoted. For those thinking well you can put them in staff.....I have been in staff and had to deal with fellow officers who did not measure up to the rank or position and had to cover down on their work or have others in their unit do it in order for the mission to be completed. It is a waste of time, energy, and tax payer money to promote these officers to whatever the next rank is, not just LTs. Just my two cents.

2014-04-07T19:14:40-04:00 2014-04-07T19:14:40-04:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 98351

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Your question is a very good one and possibly many may not answer.<br><br>The first question is, is there a paper trail of failures, documentation that shows the failures ?  To promote or not promote you would need to show documentation showing the pattern of good or bad behavior ?<br><br>Another question is when LT's have failures or mistakes, was there corrective action or was he/she thrown into the wind ?<br><br>A bad NCOER or OER in the hyper competitive arena of the military can hinder or stop the career of a soldier so you may not see a paper trail of mistakes unless it's a major one.<br><br>This in essence goes back to the NCO's, Captains, even the LTC to mentor and groom new LT's to be better soldiers. The bad LT's you see now, may be coal meant to be diamonds if developed properly. <br><br>Maybe I'm the "always optimist", but unless that LT is completely unresponsive to advise and corrective action, there is always hope for a soldier. This is where you as the SFC is tested.<br><br>IMO good platoon sergeants will want the best platoon leaders, but the exceptional SFC will want the challenge of having the "not so good one" because he/she accepts the challenge of grooming a coal into a diamond.<br><br>Such a challenge for the SFC also looks better on an NCOER, and as a CPT. I will see it, because you have displayed the ability to mentor, as well as give technical and practical expertise in your chosen field. It also strengthens the Army in general, because LT's who are thrown into the wind and then promoted become very resentful to NCO's who did not advise or help them when they needed it most and that can affect their decision making in the future when they go up in the ranks.<br>

2014-04-10T11:39:06-04:00 2014-04-10T11:39:06-04:00 SSG Genaro Negrete 116289

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It has been my understanding for some time that promotion to CPT was as, not to use the word common, but expected for officers. On the outside, looking in, I don't know the specific time frame needed at the 01, 02 level before being considered for 03. I've not seen any officer NOT make 03 with in their first 4-5 years. I was under the impression that the scrutiny for promotion didn't really begin until you were being looked at for 04.<br /><br />That being said, what kind of documentation is needed to prevent the promotion to 03? Who is the final approving authority? Is getting passed over once a career killer?<br /><br />I have seen sub par officers get moved into staff positions. Even top notch officers move. It was my understanding that they needed to fill other positions. Spending time as the BN S4 can give you valuable insight when working as an XO, and vice versa. Understanding all these cogs prepares you to operate the whole machine.<br /><br />Is there some administrative action, short of kicking the officer out, that can be applied to try to get the soldier to see the severity of their lack of performance? I don't suppose a bar to reenlist applies to officers, but is there an equivalent?

2014-05-01T10:38:31-04:00 2014-05-01T10:38:31-04:00 CH (CPT) Heather Davis 125880

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I disagree, I look at General Washington, General Patton, and myself included. Development takes time, failure is a part of learning and a part of development. <br /><br />I look back at the thirty years I have in the Military, and I will share with you, I was not brilliant, I did not play well with others.<br /><br />I did however, have a tenacity to push through obstacles, and take correction. I call it Leadership sand paper, if the LT will not quit, who are we to give up on them.

2014-05-13T14:38:08-04:00 2014-05-13T14:38:08-04:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 125967

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Making mistakes are part of a lifelong process of personal and professional development. Is that what we are calling failure? Very few individuals wearing the uniform today were born leaders. The large majority of us were slowly, and often painfully shaped by our NCOs, peers, and superiors into the officers we are today. Actual failure in my book comes from the inability to learn from your mistakes or listen to sound counsel, regardless of the source. The bottom line is that rank should never be a barrier for continued personal and professional development. I'm immediately reminded of one of my favorite quotes by MG MacFarland, Ft. Huachuca CG, that I received during one of his OPD sessions: "...never allow your rank to define who you are as an individual".

2014-05-13T15:37:05-04:00 2014-05-13T15:37:05-04:00 LTC Richard Wasserman 126786

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Depends on the way you define failure. Are they a danger to themselves or others? Are they in the proper position? Should they be in a team situation or work by themselves? Can they perform PT as well as their soldiers? These are just a few of the things that need to be considered.

2014-05-14T14:43:36-04:00 2014-05-14T14:43:36-04:00 BG Private RallyPoint Member 157016

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>All officers have an obligation similar to an enlisted contract for their first few year. USMA grad owe 5 yrs., ROTC 4, and poor OCS grads like me only 3. A few officers, like pilots or doctors can owe even more. Bottom line is that they can&#39;t leave the Service without paying back Uncle Sam.<br />Some officers may also be late bloomers and be better senior officers than junior officers. We don&#39;t decide if an enlisted man can be a good Sergeant Major after his or her first four years, let&#39;s not do that with officers.

2014-06-17T21:14:23-04:00 2014-06-17T21:14:23-04:00 BG David Fleming III 548899

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Absolutely not! It is incumbent upon Senior officers who supervise substandard junior officers to document their failures through counseling and the OER process. If not, the board has no alternative but to promote them.

2015-03-24T14:27:00-04:00 2015-03-24T14:27:00-04:00 LTC Private RallyPoint Member 549332

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>We typically learn so much more from our failures. As long as the LT is bringing those lessons to CPT, I am OK with it.

2015-03-24T18:40:46-04:00 2015-03-24T18:40:46-04:00 MAJ Private RallyPoint Member 549576

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>This isn't an issue unique to Officers. Instead of "decommissioning" I think we need to focus on giving accurate evaluations. I saw an E6 who was relieved in country pin on E7 the following year because his leadership didn't have the intestinal fortitude to give him a negative NCOER. If a Soldier at any pay grade is failing they need to be counseled and mentored. If they refuse to improve their OER/NCOER needs to reflect that. Too often leaders don't want to take the "hard right" and let substandard subordinates like you're describing slide through.

2015-03-24T20:56:39-04:00 2015-03-24T20:56:39-04:00 SPC Nate Lamphier 550533

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>If you are not meeting the requirements to be "proficient" in your position, by no means should you be rewarded with more rank/pay. This isn't just my feeling towards officers or enlisted Soldiers, this is on the civilian side as well. I'll take this further and say that PV1's shouldn't be promoted based on their TIG. I know that some are not, but too often I saw that guys who were not "good at their job" were promoted because the attitude was they are just moving to the rank of PV2. Personally, I don't think there is any way that I should have been able to enter as a Specialist. <br /><br />My opinion is that just because I have a bachelors degree does not mean I can now be placed in a leadership role by Army standards. I proved nothing by Army standards in an Army setting that indicated I was capable of leading. Pay off my student loans (thank you Army!) yes but start me at the bottom so I can learn everything and have an appreciation of those ranks that I am now leading. From my short time in the Military (only a three year enlistment) I could definitely tell the officers who had a Military background whether that was coming from a Military college or were enlisted first, those guys had an understanding/knowledge of the Army way. Those who didn't, not saying they were terrible people, but were not on the previously mentioned level. I should note that I'm not saying there are not a lot of officers who come directly from a public university to the Army world are not successful, respected leaders.

2015-03-25T11:41:14-04:00 2015-03-25T11:41:14-04:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 660011

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I think it depends greatly on your definition of failure. The Army expects LTs to make some mistakes. After all, the only way to not make mistakes is to sit idle and not try anything new for fear of making mistakes. That being said, there are those LTs that are plain untrainable and really do not belong in the military. Graduates of USMA that don't cut it as officers should definitely have to serve out the remainder of your contracts as enlisted Soldiers, E-4.

2015-05-11T15:09:08-04:00 2015-05-11T15:09:08-04:00 SSgt Boyd Herrst 3858162

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Why promote if they are not ready? Eh possibly endanger lives?

2018-08-06T18:13:56-04:00 2018-08-06T18:13:56-04:00 2014-04-04T15:19:04-04:00