If you Conceal Carry a Gun what is Your Personal ROE?

2016-02-19T16:57:21-05:00

If you Conceal Carry a Gun what is Your Personal Rules of Engagement?

What are the different levels of escalation that you are going to go through when comforted with a situation where you have to pull out your concealed weapon?

Are you prepared for the consequences of shooting or killing an individual in self-defense?

I'm curious about what you have put in place as your personal ROE

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-02-19T17:01:02-05:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs If I were concealing and carrying, my rule of engagement would be if I'm threatened enough to take it out, I'm threatened enough to fire it because if the threat is that eminent, short of firing will likely result in the perpetrator taking the weapon away and using it against me.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Feb 19 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-02-19T17:01:28-05:00

Well that is an interesting question COL Mikel J. Burroughs. The ROE would depend upon the environment - grocery store versus crack house, day care versus biker bar :-)
The ROE depend on which state you are and whether or not there are reciprocal enforcement agreements with your home state.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2016 5:04 PM

2016-02-19T17:04:37-05:00

If I have to draw my weapon, I am prepared to use lethal force to end the threat. I will not draw my weapon to threaten someone, it will only come out of its holster if I have perceived a threat to myself or others of dire bodily injury or death.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Feb 19 at 2016 5:14 PM

2016-02-19T17:14:29-05:00

I would have to agree with Major Davis on this one. I am not a braggart nor do I brandish my weapon to intimidate others. I am however prepared to draw my weapon and use lethal force until the threat is eliminated if I believe I am in danger of either great bodily harm or death

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Feb 19 at 2016 5:14 PM

2016-02-19T17:14:32-05:00

Remember to carry it. Seriously, I have had a carry permit for years and the only time I have actually carried was when there was an alarm at my daughter's bank where she was employed. Because the LEOs get nervous when they discover you have a firearm, I don't carry normally.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 19 at 2016 5:25 PM

2016-02-19T17:25:47-05:00

1) De-escalate, De-escalate, De-escalate.
2) "If" #1 is not possible, he who escalates hardest, fastest, is most likely to survive.
3)"If" I have to draw it, be willing to use it.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2016 5:29 PM

2016-02-19T17:29:07-05:00

I would only pull to protect family, myself or if someone I feel is about to die. I have heard about people who have killed for property and I don't think I could do that.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2016 5:37 PM

2016-02-19T17:37:00-05:00

I have always been told if you pull your weapon, be ready to use it or lose it. I would rather use it than lose it. too many times people hesitate and become the victim themselves. I myself am not a CC, but I know several officers of law enforcement as well as talked with people that train CCs.

I am seriously thinking of getting mine, but I want to make sure that I am ready for the responsibility that comes with it too.

Response by CPO Frank Coluccio made Feb 19 at 2016 5:40 PM

2016-02-19T17:40:37-05:00

Since I am a LEO, the same ROE as LEOs

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Feb 19 at 2016 5:44 PM

2016-02-19T17:44:11-05:00

I would use my MP levels of force. They give me ample time to think and walk away, but if required display and use. But any ROE is a fail if it only gives the bearer presentation and use of deadly force in my opinion, but situation dictates.

Response by SPC David S. made Feb 19 at 2016 5:45 PM

2016-02-19T17:45:41-05:00

I go with the thought that if someone points a weapon on me and they're not LEO - my logic is they are planing to use lethal force. When that though is recognized I draw my weapon - again I draw my weapon - not shoot my weapon. This "when" logic applies to hunting as well - there's a big difference in knowing how to shoot and knowing when to shoot.
Lots of range time with bandit targets.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Feb 19 at 2016 5:46 PM

2016-02-19T17:46:39-05:00

When carrying concealed my rules of engagement are simple. If I feel that I am in serious danger of death or serious bodily injury or if a loved one is and there is no good way to escape I shoot you. I do not use my gun unless it is absolutely necessary and then only to protect myself or a person who is with me. I do not use my gun to protect people that I do not know or to stop crimes that do not concern me. The only possible exception would be to save the life of a child.
No matter how justified you are in shooting someone you are going to go through tons of shit and you will be sued. That is true even for law enforcement. I do still work some contract security jobs and the rules of engagement for that are different but in those situations I have other non-lethal weapons that will usually reduce or eliminate the need to shoot somebody. In all cases a gun is the last resort.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Feb 19 at 2016 5:47 PM

2016-02-19T17:47:54-05:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs - ONLY to protect life & limb. Otherwise, move to safer ground and call for those who are professionally deputized to make that decision.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Feb 19 at 2016 6:13 PM

2016-02-19T18:13:30-05:00

It is pretty clear to me. I do carry regularly. First point that Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS makes is to de-escalate, move away, try to avoid the issue first.

The rule of thumb is that you need to believe your life or the lives of others are in immediate danger or there is the likelihood of serious bodily harm to you or others.

You should never draw a weapon you do not intend to use but just because you draw it doesn't mean you are going to be justified in using it. You could have someone threatening you with a knife. You believe your life is at risk. You draw your weapon to protect yourself. The other person moves away/drops the weapon etc. You are no longer in danger so you are not cleared to shoot.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Feb 19 at 2016 6:18 PM

2016-02-19T18:18:25-05:00

There is no such thing as "personal ROE" when concealed carrying. Your states laws will be your ROE. Anything else will just get you charged with a crime. Even the choice of drawing your weapon is covered. Read your state laws and be sure to understand them BEFORE (God forbid) you are forced to pull your weapon for self defense.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Feb 19 at 2016 6:29 PM

2016-02-19T18:29:32-05:00

My wife and I are in the carry it with you away, out the window, or whatever; and then last resort. Even if you're in the right, it's a lot more time and paperwork that you have to do vs. having law enforcement do the trigger pulling. That way you're limited to being a witness vs. the subject of Monday Morning Quarterbacks. Carrying is essentially an insurance policy that you only cash in when in extremis. Funny thing, in my neck of the woods, it's more unusual for someone not to carry.

Response by SSgt Christopher Brose made Feb 19 at 2016 6:36 PM

2016-02-19T18:36:56-05:00

Many violent encounters are avoided when the baddies know their intended victim is armed, so to me, drawing the weapon is not something to necessarily hold off on until the last possible instant. It is something justifiable once a credible threat is perceived, I'd rather not wait until serious bodily damage or death is imminent.

I decided long ago that I am ok with the idea of killing someone if circumstances demand it. That doesn't mean I won't be traumatized, I won't have psychological aftereffects, etc., but it does mean I won't be making the decision as I am standing there with my finger on the trigger. I think anyone who has not yet made that decision has no business carrying.

Response by SGT Lou Meza made Feb 19 at 2016 6:45 PM

2016-02-19T18:45:58-05:00

My first rule is don't be there . Then do what Kwai Chang Caine do . Run rather than fight , fight rather than maim , maim rather than kill , kill rather than be killed .

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Feb 19 at 2016 6:46 PM

2016-02-19T18:46:43-05:00

My personal response is I can neither confirm nor deny.

Response by Doug Macdonald made Feb 19 at 2016 7:06 PM

2016-02-19T19:06:13-05:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs, I have a concealed carry permit in the state of FL. I am totally familiar with the stand your ground laws & concealed carry regulations in the state. As the youngest recipient of the U.S. Army Marksman medal, I know I can hit what I am aiming at.

That being said, I think you have to adapt your ROE to the individual situation. I have had 2 situations in 58 years where deadly force was required. The first situation was an armed robbery at my home in Orlando. One shot to the head. Deadly force was necessary as he was armed.

The 2nd situation most people would have used deadly force but I made the decision to simply immobilize to minimize casualties. He had just robbed Publix, I was in the parking lot heading for the door when he appeared coming out into the parking lot shooting. I hit him in the upper arm and disarmed him until police arrived.

I do agree that you need to know your state concealed carry regulations. If you are going to carry a gun you need to know how to hit what you aim for without emptying an entire clip.

Response by SSG Leonard J W. made Feb 19 at 2016 7:31 PM

2016-02-19T19:31:57-05:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs, I think this is a great discussion, sir. In my personal life, shooting will always be an unfortunate last resort. Some people can be dangerous, especially when under the influence of drugs or involved in criminal activity. If it's my life or theirs, then I agree with SGT Lou Meza.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Feb 19 at 2016 7:40 PM

2016-02-19T19:40:55-05:00

My personal ROE are pretty simple. If my sidearm ever comes out, you have taken things to a point where your only remaining option is to go prone and wait for the police to arrive. It won't come out for anything less. Fail to exercise that option, and I hope you're right with your maker, because I am.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Feb 19 at 2016 8:59 PM

2016-02-19T20:59:38-05:00

The consequences of shooting or killing an individual are pretty serious and severe. From what I have read, no personal experiences, police and prosecutors, the press, public, and vic's family will do all in their power to convict you regardless of how open and shut the case may seem to be or is. That's my perception anyhow. They will put you and yr family through hoops of fire and can build a pretty persuasive case of why you over reacted or acted unlawfully,improperly, or did not make every effort to retreat, etc. Even police themselves are being hoist in the air over line of duty shootings, esp if there is either any public outcry or PC considerations. Look at what happened to Geo Zimmerman as one example of what can happen. Just like in combat you can have a good plan, but when the first shot is fired you often have to end up improvising on the fly.

Response by CW4 Angel C. made Feb 19 at 2016 10:05 PM

2016-02-19T22:05:11-05:00

Someone said it here: the law has to be your ROEs. What may be ok in the military could get you in trouble in the civilian sector. I guess the general lawful rule is that unless you feel your life is in great danger you're not authorized to draw your weapon or shoot someone. For my life to be in great danger I must believe that this person has some kind of weapon (knife, bat, etc) to harm me with. I wonder what some carriers would do if someone without a weapon would just start punching him. Fighting someone off while carrying is a great danger to yourself and others.

Response by Garret Kaminskis made Feb 19 at 2016 10:59 PM

2016-02-19T22:59:38-05:00

In the State of Wisconsin the ROE are clearly delineated in the conceal carry statute and the training curriculum. This along with the Castle law gives a solid foundation to defend your family from. With this in mind, the consequences of shooting or killing an individual in self-defense is not desirable. There are no winners. Just losers. The only consolation is you will still be alive to fight for your freedom from incarceration, a revenge attack or the lessor reality experiencing financial bankruptcy. What other options do you have other then being a willing victim? A statistic. You have to find and excellent training institution, never stop learning, maintain firearm proficiency, avoid situations that increase the chances of confrontation and when confronted respond with measured due diligence.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2016 12:24 AM

2016-02-20T00:24:31-05:00

I think these replies are a bit skewed and morally/legally written to sound good.

If you were in the same position as the Marine in Washington DC, I find it hard to believe that you would have acted as he did... Even though you were carrying.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2016 1:16 AM

2016-02-20T01:16:29-05:00

Make sure you hit what you are aiming at and protect the lives of your loved ones and the innocent people around you.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2016 3:54 AM

2016-02-20T03:54:51-05:00

http://www.tactical-life.com/tactics/10-commandments-of-concealed-carry/#10-commandments-of-concealed-carry-1

10 Commandments of Concealed Carry

Carrying a lethal weapon in public confers a grave power that carries with it great responsibilities. Here are the 10 commandments of concealed carry.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2016 3:58 AM

2016-02-20T03:58:04-05:00

1. All predators are always killers. When they attack, your options for self-defense are very limited.

2. The predator is smarter than you. Act and react accordingly.

3. Predators will use all the force necessary (and then some) to achieve their goals, without regard to consequences.

4. Predators evaluate their targets before attacking. If you are attacked, the predator has determined he will succeed without a heavy cost to himself.

5. If you are about to become a victim, you have already made serious mistakes.

6. Believe what you see; don’t go into denial. Your attacker won’t.

7. In a lethal confrontation, you will only have time to choose one course of action- and your life depends on making the right choice.

8. Predators rarely act alone, although the ones that do are the most dangerous. If there’s one, look for two; if there are two, look for three, etc.

9. Fear is the predator’s friend and your enemy.

10. Talk and negotiation rarely work.

11. Predators do not have a conscience. Don’t waste time and effort appealing to any sense of mercy or kindness.

12. Some people cannot be frightened or intimidated. Displaying a weapon may not solve and, in some cases, may well exacerbate the problem. Be prepared for this.

13. “Bullets don’t work.” Gene Zink, Former H&K Law Enforcement Trainer. No hand-held firearm fires a guaranteed “one-shot-stop” round. Anticipate needing follow-up shots.

14. Firearms don’t work all the time and may well not work when you need them most.

15. Carry only the biggest-caliber gun you can control.

16. Don’t be overly concerned about caliber. No one wants to “leak” or have holes put in him.

17. Carry a reload

18. Carry a second gun.

19. Be able to get to both handguns with either hand; and

20. Don’t assume you can prevail in the conflict due to your superior tactics and training. The predator only has to be lucky once. Avoiding him is still the best defense.

21. The honest citizen pitted against a predator is an unequal contest. The predator is a professional. Most honest citizens are amateurs.

22. No competition or training, no matter how well learned or practiced, can equal hands-on experience.

23. Predators constantly validate their training with hands-on experience.

24. Getting hands-on experience can be fatal, but survivors learn their lessons well!

Walt Rausch’s Rules

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2016 4:01 AM

2016-02-20T04:01:21-05:00

#1 “You were not at fault or did not create the situation that gave rise to the taking of another’s life.”
#2 “You believe you were in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm.”
#3 “You must not have violated any opportunity to retreat or avoid the danger.”
#4 “You have exhausted all other means to avoid the use of deadly force.”
#5 “The use of deadly force presents no substantial risk of injury to innocent persons.”

Response by Capt Tj Feeley made Feb 20 at 2016 4:12 AM

2016-02-20T04:12:01-05:00

Considering im a police officer and carry concealed about 99% of the time off duty, inwould have to say my ROE might be slightly different than as a civilian. Maybe not. A lot depends on what your state and local laws are in your area and might have an effect in your own ROE. I live and work in NY for background. My ROE is simple...protect the lives of myself or any other person from serious bodily harm or death.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Feb 20 at 2016 7:14 AM

2016-02-20T07:14:46-05:00

Follow local laws, let the professionals handle the situation.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Feb 20 at 2016 1:00 PM

2016-02-20T13:00:07-05:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs - Mikel; I don't carry 99.99% of the time.

When I do carry then I am prepared to use my weapon to stop/prevent grievous bodily harm and/or the illegal use of weapons to commit crimes.

Unless I am personally threatened, a disabling shot is best and a gut shot tends to be both disabling and more achievable than "shooting the gun out of their hand" - it also allows for the law to run its course.

If I am personally attacked, then all bets are off since only an "insane" person would attack someone who has a drawn firearm and appears to be ready to use it.

Response by SMSgt Thor Merich made Feb 20 at 2016 1:08 PM

2016-02-20T13:08:08-05:00

I use the same ROE as I did when I was working in Law enforcement and has been held up by SCOTUS.

If my life or another's is in danger of death or great bodily harm. Otherwise, I will be a good witness.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2016 3:55 PM

2016-02-20T15:55:33-05:00

I would rather be a good witness than have to engage however if I draw my weapon I am prepared to follow the same use of force as I would when working as a police officer. With this said, carrying off duty doesn't have the luxury of intermediate weapons.

A show of force is always the first level in the escalation of force during an encounter with a CCW holder. If possible the CCW holder should attempt to defuse the situation with commands and request someone contact law enforcement at this point. If that is not possible or the need to escalate continues the CCW holder should engage if the situation dictates. After the situation is over the CCW holder should be prepared to provide medical attention to any Injured. Someone at this point should also contact emergency personnel to include law enforcement if they haven't already been notified.

Response by SGT Robert Riley made Feb 20 at 2016 11:36 PM

2016-02-20T23:36:20-05:00

My personal ROE for CCW is , depending on the situation,
1. Do a quick assessment of the situation. Have spare ammo and first aid kit available.
2. Try some diplomacy (If possible)
3. If situation deteriorates,displace to a safe area;ie. behind car, etc
4. If situation is in progress, when arriving on scene, follow step 1. and use the necessary amount of deadly force to defend the victim or your life. Abide by local laws that are tailored to your CCW permit
5. Do a quick (written) AAR when everything is still fresh in memory and stay alert until local LEOs arrive on scene.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Feb 21 at 2016 3:16 PM

2016-02-21T15:16:04-05:00

Last resort.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 10:00 AM

2016-02-22T10:00:54-05:00

In most states you cannot escalate force. If you draw you better be prepared to kill and stand trial. Drawing a concealed permit (in a perceived threatening manner) and not firing is a felony in most states. Heaven forbid you are not in a stand your ground state as you must prove that you retreated.

Response by Cpl Chad Perry made Feb 22 at 2016 11:34 AM

2016-02-22T11:34:24-05:00

The ROE part of the C&C class I took in MN was taught by an attorney, and he basically said in MN if the threat is within 21 feet or if you're defending your home you can use lethal force. I have had 3 occasions where just letting the other guy know I was armed de-escalated the situation in a hurry and they ran off.

Response by SSG Michael Scott made Feb 22 at 2016 12:43 PM

2016-02-22T12:43:21-05:00

"When my life or family is in life threatening imminent danger, that is when. Or, stay alert, stay alive.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2016 8:35 AM

2016-02-24T08:35:07-05:00

Thought is simple, if I pull, you are not going to live. I will do everything, including conceding I am wrong, at fault, etc.., to avoid it. I am by no means a pacifist, but if push comes to shove, or you endanger my family... Dead men tell no tales.

One thing to note, I do not intentionally seek situations where issues could arise, I tend to be situationally aware, trusting my gut feelings and listening to that small voice inside. It has served me well of the past 36 years.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Feb 24 at 2016 10:57 AM

2016-02-24T10:57:40-05:00

I'm not sure, but whenever I'm in a place where conceal carry is legal. Very few problems exsist.
I did have to draw my weapon back in 2000, we were all asleep, and my wife woke up to some noise she was hearing outside the house. It was summer time so all of our windows were open, she woke me up saying she heard somebody outside of my front door, so I went to the front door and notice the door knob turning slowly. I back tracked to my bedroom to get Ruger p89
I went back to the front door and just when the door was about to give, I snatched the door open and stuck my gun right in his face. I shouted at him and asked what was he doing? He passed his pants. I told my wife to call the police, he began to run away, that's when I let one loose over his head. I picked up the shell case and told my wife, what ever you do don't tell the cops I shot at him. The police came to the report and left and that was that

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2016 1:27 PM

2016-02-28T13:27:23-05:00

Develop a mindset of calm awareness, it is surprisingly simple to de escalate a situation by walking away. This takes both a level head and the ability to put personal safety before ego. Being aware lets you avoid potential conflicts, being calm helps you deflect possible escalation.

That being said, I would only draw if there was a clear and present lethal threat to myself or my family, and only if I had already made the decision to engage.

My personal philosophy on EDC is to have it and not need it rather than need it and not have it. My wife and I both refuse to be victims in the off chance that we are caught off guard. Most importantly, having a comprehensive understanding of local, state, and federal laws as well as committing to remain up to date with training is imperative for anyone who carries whether concealed or not.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Mar 17 at 2016 8:39 PM

2016-03-17T20:39:55-04:00

I will only use mine if I, or anyone within my AO, is threatened with injury or death as a result of someone else's use of potentially deadly force. And I always carry. Or as Patrick Swayze said in "Roadhouse" .... "Be nice until it's time to not be nice" ....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2016 6:02 PM

2016-04-29T18:02:59-04:00

I have several rules for carrying, which I do everywhere I am able. Living in Montana, I am more likely to have to defend myself against 4 legged furry creatures than the 2 legged kind, but the same principles apply.
The first rule is to practice. I practice drawing, engaging targets, reloading, clearing and re-holstering with the firearms I carry at least monthly. I mainly carry an SP101, but I carry an auto at times as well.
My second rule is never carry condition one. This definitely is fueled by a lot of debate but if I'm carrying the auto, the mag is full but no round in the chamber. The wheel gun is also a pretty reliable way to skirt that issue. I practice drawing, chambering, and engaging the target - with 2 hands, with 1 hand, and with my weak side hand, etc. I was actually undecided on carrying with an empty chamber when I first started carrying concealed. What finally cemented my decision was once during a traffic stop, the officer securing my XD45 seemed nervous and while clearing it, flagged me several times. My philosophy is that I carry a weapon (not just a firearm) for defense. The first tool of defense is the mind. You should always be paying attention to the situation around you and avoid putting yourself and others in a situation where you could avoid resorting to violence. The odds of needing that extra 2 seconds over having a round already chambered, in my opinion, is negligible and should be mitigated by being aware and controlling the situation.
The third rule is, don't ever point a weapon at something you don't intend to destroy. If, God forbid, I ever have to employ a weapon in self defense I am prepared to use it to it's full capacity. I remember one time I watched a video that showed knife attacks caught on closed circuit tv. My adrenaline pinged so hard I had to pause part way through because I was getting light headed. You better know what you can do before push comes to shove.
Finally, never stop learning. Laws change, tactics change, hardware changes. I try to keep learning, comparing my actions against real world encounters, what works and what didn't, and why.

Response by MAJ Michael Pauling made Apr 30 at 2016 6:04 PM

2016-04-30T18:04:16-04:00

anyone who answers this questions then gets involved in a situation and does not follow the way you said you would do it can you be sued for posting your answer? My Lawyer wants to know....................

Response by SGT Roberto Mendoza-Diaz made Apr 30 at 2016 6:10 PM

2016-04-30T18:10:07-04:00

In my state a warning shot could land you in jail.

Response by SrA William Giraldi made Apr 30 at 2016 6:18 PM

2016-04-30T18:18:20-04:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs, By law, my non-resident AZ CCW permit is not valid (even though I qualified on the M9 pistol in the Army). At any rate, you may or may not see me carrying even without a valid NJ permit. I have open-carried in PA from time to time (mainly because I didn't have my CCW permit then). Nevertheless, I am still apprehensive about drawing here in NJ since I have no valid permit (we req a justifiable need to get a permit and no, stating "personal protection" or "all lawful purpose" doesn't qualify). I refuse to do so unless it's an immediate threat that needs to be ended. All in all, I've only had to draw my gun once from within the household when someone was pounding on the main door after 1030 at night. Person ran away after I turned the mini flashlight on and shined it through the window.

Response by SFC Wade W. made Apr 30 at 2016 7:44 PM

2016-04-30T19:44:52-04:00

As a 25 yr MP my ROE is pretty much the same as it was when working post LE duties. The only change for me is now my unarmed self defense skills are quite diminished. As for shooting/killing someone in defense of others or myself, I'm good with that.
I am speaking about this a lot to people recently. It seems to be a hot topic. The point that I stress a lot these days is about round accountability. Know your backdrop and know where every round will finally come to rest. I will always do everything I can to ensure that my shots will not strike an unintended target.

Response by SFC Alfredo Garcia made Apr 30 at 2016 8:11 PM

2016-04-30T20:11:44-04:00

Wow this is heavy! My ROE is simple: only if life is truly threatened.
The circumstances are as varied as the variables in general life. We cannot prepare for it all. I may simply be the first victim shot dead before I knew what happened and my gun did me no favors. So with the assumption that I recognize a situation, I can attempt to assess if possible- how many perps, what weapons, their purpose, are they prepared or is this a crime of opportunity?, my position in relation, cover, and especially escape routes. I didn't come here for combat. I am not hero and I am not the police. Last thing I need is a responding unit to mistake me for a perp as they probably have less information than me. My purpose- get out and engage only if no choice. I have limited ammo, no prior plan, and I don't get respawned ala Call of Duty. Protect innocent life. Get them out. I hope I am not the only one armed. GOODNESS please let me not have to do it. But I will.

Am I prepared to take a life? Yes, for too many reasons than I am comfortable going into. There will be NO warning shot. If I have to draw it is because in the shortest of moments given I had to decide to take action. I will aim if possible for 2 shots center mass. I will not aim at the head since it is a smaller target and with the heightened senses and fears probably more prone to miss and I cannot forgive myself if I injured an innocent bystander.

If the situation was escalating and he was not aiming specifically at someone but I sense he may I would possibly draw and yell, "STOP, PLEASE!" Not because I am actually begging him (though I may be), but because it sounds remarkably like, "STOP, POLICE!" It may be what is needed to bring a moment of clarity to the perp or may cause just enough of distractive pause that provides a slight advantage.

Regardless of what I plan or train for, I doubt that if I had to pull and/or engage it will go according to plan.

For example, I had a situation where two lesbians attempted to attack my adopted son. I knocked one out cold and physically threw out the other. One looked like a girl but acted like a thug. The other was built like a male linebacker and also acted like a thug. If it were not for my training this could have ended badly. My sons apartment, they refused to leave, protecting my family, you get the rest.

Second, a tattooed drunk showing off attacked me through my truck window after asking to turn his music down as it was 1am on a weekday. I just wanted to go inside and sleep. Long story short, I satisfactorily dispatched him and police hauled him away.

Both situations, I was carrying and felt no need to draw. If there were ever a time these are the closest I have come in all my years. Some may have found me justified, some may not. I did not feel in danger except maybe a bit of bruising. They did not know I had it nor should they. The police were informed and I showed my credentials and they said thank you and have a nice day. Again I will draw ONLY if no other recourse.

Response by TSgt David L. made Apr 30 at 2016 11:55 PM

2016-04-30T23:55:14-04:00

If the situation escalates to the point that I have to draw one of my concealed weapons, then someone's going to die. And it's NOT going to be me. Not unlike the military ROE, the need must be great and substantial before YOU raise the stakes.

This is what I told both my boys when they each got their CCP, so I'll use this analogy; if you can stand in front of the victim's family and sufficiently convince them that what you did was both legal and necessary to prevent further injury and/or loss of life, then pull and fire. If there is another viable solution you better come up with it in the blink of an eye. Plan your fight, and fight your plan...

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made May 1 at 2016 12:29 AM

2016-05-01T00:29:13-04:00

I'm into the carry it with you out the window, down the road, etc. unless there is no out. Then double tap center mass. Reason is there's far less paperwork for you to do if you let the LEO do the shooting for you. BTW, you can have great quality family time by spending range time together.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made May 1 at 2016 10:07 AM

2016-05-01T10:07:04-04:00

Let the local police officer handle the situation unless he is too far away. Then do what is necessary.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2016 11:17 AM

2016-05-01T11:17:28-04:00

Protect if myself or others if we are in fear for their lives.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2016 12:38 PM

2016-05-01T12:38:33-04:00

if in the response of violence against yourself or others then use it as a last resort, case in point had a good friend savagely beaten, dragged out and shot to death in broad daylight, i wish i could've been there, she was a good person and a great nurse

Response by Sgt Donald Chalfy made May 1 at 2016 11:29 PM

2016-05-01T23:29:52-04:00

My ROE is to use lethal force as a last resort within the laws of my local government. If I am forced to draw my weapon, I will not hesitate to use it. I am prepared to face any consequences I will face legally and psychologically.

My ROE for using a firearm in self defence is as follows:
My first action is to learn every facet of the law pertaining to this subject and have copies of these laws close buy wherever I am.
Maintain situational awareness and presence of mind.
Quickly assess the situation, use diplomacy and tact to diffuse the situation and threat.
If presented with a situation where I have no choice but to defend myself and family, only then will I draw my weapon and shoot to kill.
After discharging my weapon, call the police and inform them of the situation and follow their directions.

Pretty straightforward stuff. I believe it is not enough to solely rely upon information given at concealed carry classes, but to also follow up with local authorities and reliable legal counsel.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made May 2 at 2016 10:07 AM

2016-05-02T10:07:22-04:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs First thing is knowing the state laws. Every state sets its own statutes for use of lethal force by CCW/P/WP holders. Second is not drawing that sidearm unless it is a situation where it is needed. Third, one must be prepared to be taken into police custody upon discharge of their weapon. I am not saying that one will be charged, or even transported to the police station, but police rolling up on a scene are not going to know good guys from bad guys.

So those things being said, my personal ROE are as follows

1. Come into my house in the middle of the night uninvited, I am presuming you intend to cause bodily harm to my family, and will respond accordingly
2. In public, you will not know that I am carrying my sidearm, until the time arises that it is needed.
3. Property is not worth taking a life.
4. I will protect myself, my family, and my friends with lethal force if necessary.
5. I will protect the life of a stranger if it is blatantly obvious that failure to intervene will result in the death, or rape of that individual.
6. If I am not certain as to the circumstances of a situation, I will observe at a distance insuring that my family is protected, but I will not interject myself into the situation, unless it escalates to meet rule 5.
7. If there is any doubt in my mind as to whether or not lethal force is justified, I will err on the side of caution.
8. I will maintain my sidearm in good working order, and maintain my own familiarity with the weapon.
9. I will train regularly to insure that I am prepared should a situation arise that requires me to use my weapon.

This is all just common sense stuff. The long and the short of it is, when in doubt keep the weapon holstered. As for the consequences, outside of those who have been forced to take a life whether in defense of their nation, defense of another, or defense of themselves, nobody knows if they are prepared for the emotional consequences of taking another human being's life. Movies make it seem like whether protagonist or antagonist, it is nothing to take the life of another person. Consequences are rarely included because it does not make for a compelling film.
As for the legal consequences, at a minimum be prepared to be handcuffed, taken into custody, and placed in the back of a police car while Law Enforcement officers sort out the events leading up to the use of lethal force. When in doubt shut up. Don't say anything. Before speaking take a moment to sort through what happened in your own mind. One should be prepared to be treated as a suspect rather than a victim in the immediate aftermath of a self defense shooting. Again, until put in that situation, nobody really knows how they will react.

Response by SSG Jeremy Kohlwes made May 2 at 2016 10:19 AM

2016-05-02T10:19:42-04:00

Very intriguing question, and one that more people probably should be asking themselves. As with most situations in the military, it had a lot to do with "METT-C." Every situation is unique. For me, I would only use mine if myself or someone within my immediate vicinity is in mortal danger. And if I do use my gun it will be because I feel the possibilty of injury or death is highly probable. I also like to think that if I do end up in that situation I would do my best to shoot to incapacitate.
There really isn't much escalation you can use. You should never fire a "warning" shot because you don't know where that bullet can end up. In this case it's basically an all or none response.

Response by SFC Randy Purham made May 2 at 2016 3:43 PM

2016-05-02T15:43:29-04:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs, while living in Alaska (Constitutional carry state), I carried my firearm in austere/dangerous areas. My ROE was simple. 1.) Never draw your weapon or flash (although open carried) your weapon unless you're going to shoot. 2.) Diplomacy first. Talk or negotiate out of the situation. 3.) Try not to get involved in situations or intervene in issues not directly threatening your own personal safety. That is what the Police is for. 4.) If you're going to shoot - shoot to kill.

With #4, if witnesses are around - you better be very well in the right (self-defense) to have pulled the trigger. And know and understand all gun-laws at the State and Local level before just randomly deciding to carry and/or engage others with a firearm. I fully support the 2nd Amendment, but I also endorse common-sense gun laws. Not everyone should have them, nor is everyone competent enough to carry one. Its just simple facts.

Response by CPO Andy Carrillo, MS made May 2 at 2016 7:06 PM

2016-05-02T19:06:46-04:00

COL Mikel J. Burroughs great question as we all will be held to different standards depending upon prior and current training. My wife with zero LE or military training will be given more latitude than I or CPO Frank Coluccio will receive in the event of a self-defensive shooting situation. An imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to me or another from which I/we cannot reasonably escape will determine if I shoot/don't shoot, not whether I unholster a weapon. Being former LE, I train and maintain weapons proficiency, review the Use of Force Continuum, AND maintain Platinum Plus membership with the USCCA. As I once carried a Miranda warning card on duty, I now carry and regularly review the Defensive Shooting Guidelines for the Responsibly Armed Citizen and Post-Incident Instructions. I also have the USCCA's Critical Response Team's number entered into my and my wife's cell phone. Our ROE for surviving (physically, mentally, financially) a self-defense shooting incident extends for months and perhaps years long after the smoke has cleared should, God forbid but the bad guy(s) ignore, it ever comes to that.

Response by TSgt Jackie Jones made May 2 at 2016 11:48 PM

2016-05-02T23:48:45-04:00

First rule, if I can escape, I will. Especially when I have my kids. My husband and I usually both carry and decide before we go out who takes the kids and who stays to fight. I can run faster, so I get the kids. ;) but seriously, escape and call 911. Help where and when I can. It's California. I may be 100% right and still get sued and go to jail.
But, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by six. My life and the life of my kids is priority one.

Response by SPC James Harsh made May 3 at 2016 5:05 AM

2016-05-03T05:05:44-04:00

Well, drawing in public can be a crime in itself and just knowing you have what you have should help boost your ability to be firm and resolute. At night having a light would help too I want to get a blinky one (strobe). I think anytime you show or discharge a weapon it would be wise to inform the police to avoid answering questions, later on. That is a deterrent from waving it around, if it's worth explaining though it is viable.
Unlike the police or military, I'm not going for the lethal stop. My personal idea is to go for the unpopular shot to disable. I think shoulder or maybe some other spots. I wouldn't want to hit either main vein might need a tourniquet. If there was no way to stop an attacker after the first shot or enough information was known, than it would get ugly?

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2016 11:01 AM

2016-05-03T11:01:51-04:00

The law dictates ROE-simply stated, you, or someone else has to be in an imminent threat of death or serious injury (i.e. no pulling your weapon because someone cussed you out at the light, or backhands their spouse). For me, that means that unless I have a very reasonable (and more importantly, proven) sense that someone is about to shoot, stab, or bludgeon me or mine...my best option is to execute an orderly withdrawal. I think all of the, "if you have to shoot, make sure they're dead" crap is crap...the law is clear; once there is no more threat, you better stop pulling the trigger...whether that takes one shot, or ten. Bottom line: If you draw and shoot, you just signed up for some expensive legal bills, and probably some time in the lock-up. If you acted in accordance with the local laws, you will at least be alive...eventually free, and maybe have a decent defense against the scum-bag's attorney who's working for free to get publicity. Calm Down, Call 911, tell them What, When, Who and Where, weapon on the deck in condition four, face down, hands behind your head.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 3 at 2016 11:44 PM

2016-05-03T23:44:43-04:00

I follow AR 190-14...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2016 11:49 PM

2016-05-04T23:49:20-04:00

If I have to Pull It out I'm Going to use i.t

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Mar 23 at 2020 8:51 PM

2020-03-23T20:51:44-04:00

I carry pretty much everywhere I go these days. I attempt to avoid situations where I would need to use it anyway but if I find myself in a situation my first instinct is to deescalate and move on. As said in thread below, if I have to draw my weapon I am prepared to use lethal force to end the situation. It is ONLY pulled from the holster or shown in the event that I have a valid threat to me or my family. I am not talking about protecting my car, wallet, watch, rings etc...I am talking about a threat to my or my families life. They can carjack me all day, take my wallet those things are replaceable and not worth me unholstering my weapon unless I feel the weapon they are pointing at me they will use it. Things can be replaced...people cannot. If I have to kill someone to defend myself or family then I can live with that.