Innocent until proven guilty, is this really true in the Army?

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Mar 2014 09:39:48 -0400

I am not judging or defending anybody, I want the honest opinion of service members. On the recent high-profile case (no names please); of what was accused proven guilty? Before any evidence was shown, did you believe the he was guilty of the charges? Is perception stronger than legal verdict?

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Mar 29 at 2014 9:43 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Sat, 29 Mar 2014 09:43:21 -0400

To be honest, everything I have ever seen or dealt with while I was in was the opposite for us servicemembers, we were guilty till proven innocent.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made May 12 at 2014 10:26 PM

SGT Craig Northacker — Mon, 12 May 2014 22:26:09 -0400

The only thing that is innocent is expecting a fair shake if the presiding officers are intent on a conviction to begin with. Defense attorneys were always the new guys - loading the case up has been around for a very long time.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 12 at 2014 10:42 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 12 May 2014 22:42:43 -0400

Based on my 15 years of service, it has been guilty until proven innocent. I know because I have been there. I was lucky because I had solid and physical proof and witnesses to say I was not this or that or I never said or did "X".

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 2:02 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 May 2014 02:02:14 -0400

Perception plays into everything in the military. I believe SJA's would like it to be innocent until proven guilty, while leaders allow that SM to have the stigma that comes with the allegations. Investigators put forth the information that comes from statements and other investigative factors to the SJA before they are actually titled with anything. The stigma that comes with allegations is where, we as leaders, fail our Soldiers. Leaders need to allow proper law enforcement personnel and lawyers to provide evidence to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the SM is guilty before putting one's business out to the organization.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 4:53 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 May 2014 04:53:15 -0400

Unfortunately we live in a society where people are "guilty until proven innocent" it really does not matter what branch of service your are in,that whole slogan "innocent until proven guilty" sadly doesn't hold much value in or outside the military it's sort of like the terms "love" and "hate" we as a society have devalued the true meaning of those words by using them nonchalantly and using them for their non intended purposes.

Response by SPC Stephen Bobchin made Jun 2 at 2014 6:04 AM

SPC Stephen Bobchin — Mon, 02 Jun 2014 06:04:15 -0400

It is always guilty until, proven guilty, as you will almost never be found innocent in the military. If they think you've done it, you've done it (unless you are a high ranking officer, then nothing ever happened.)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2014 5:53 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 17:53:05 -0400

It's not really true anywhere...

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 6:56 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 18:56:34 -0400

W01 Aleman--no it isn't. It's not true outside the military either. It varies from command to command and it varies by personality and alleged offense. After all, people are people, but the military mentality can be unusually harsh. Perceptions are indeed reality. People who invoke their rights in particular can be ostracized unfairly. And yet that is one very reason you have such rights--the potential abuse of power. I've said many times in RP and cautioned many a commander--Sure, where there is smoke there is usually fire, but there can also be arson! I've seen people continue to question soldiers who have invoked their rights; very weak gossip/hearsay cases where it was clearly a railroad job because someone in the chain (sadly a CSM) wanted to demonstrate power...trust me here, the good, the bad, the ugly. However, there is good. The system does work, it just takes time and it really helps to be right. That's why you usually have the most experienced JAG officers on the defense, not the offense. Some are excellent, and a defendant has his choice of the whole Army JAG Corps under certain conditions. You have to demonstrate real moral courage to stand up for yourself when the Green Machine comes at you with the Shaft. And yes, I have done it for myself and for others, and lived to tell the tale.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 28 at 2014 7:11 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Tue, 28 Oct 2014 19:11:47 -0400

It's true NOWHERE today. Everyone is found guilty in the court of public opinion before they even get to trial because the media reports assumptions and theories not facts before the cases.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Jan 28 at 2015 1:06 PM

SGT Craig Northacker — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 13:06:41 -0500

Depends upon your relationship with the one bringing the charges. I have seen great justice done as well as great injustice.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jun 1 at 2015 7:24 AM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Mon, 01 Jun 2015 07:24:16 -0400

Of course not. If you think it is you never had a member of your unit get tried by Courts Martial. The accused can not carry on with his life until the trial, hence he is not treated the same, ergo not considered innocent.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2015 7:35 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jun 2015 07:35:15 -0400

Been a LONG time ago, but, I served on two court marshals. One pleaded guilty and we only had the punishment phase. The other both trial and punishment.

After those two experiences I have had strong faith in the military justice system.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2015 7:38 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jun 2015 07:38:05 -0400

To be considered "innocent until proven guilty" is counter productive.

That is why so many criminals are eleged, even after proof to the contrary of them being innocent.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jun 3 at 2015 5:18 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Wed, 03 Jun 2015 17:18:10 -0400

Not sure about the Army, but when I was in the USAF, one of my supervisors always told me "everyone here is guilty till proven innocent."