Intellectual honesty in discussions

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 01:58:08 -0500

I can say that I have seen a trend of somewhat disparaging remarks here. I have seen it on some posts here and due to this I don't comment due to knowing that a open discussion would be impossible. I know we all come from various backgrounds and with different knowledge but then we come with unknowns. To fill those gaps with an assumptions is faulty. Defending those assumptions is erroneous. I thought I would try to appeal to those here with what intellectual honesty actually is.

"it is an applied method of problem solving, characterized by an unbiased, honest attitude, which can be demonstrated in a number of different ways, including but not limited to:

-One's personal beliefs do not interfere with the pursuit of truth

-Relevant facts and information are not purposefully omitted even when such things may contradict one's hypothesis;

-Facts are presented in an unbiased manner, and not twisted to give misleading impressions or to support one view over another;

-References, or earlier work, are acknowledged where possible, and plagiarism is avoided."

If we can't have this than what is the point of a discussion? Some of the questions here are addressing sensitive topics. If you feel so heated that you must slam the other person for merely making a statement then maybe you need refrain from addressing it at that time.

If you want to see a good example of a great counter to a topic, see most posts by MAJ Carl Ballinger. I have never seen him act anything other than a professional and always build a solid argument. Even if I didn't agree.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Nov 6 at 2014 3:47 AM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 03:47:52 -0500

Good call out.

There is a problem in all corners of the internet, social media, main stream media, ad infinitum... for people suffering from cognitive dissonance to resort to unsavory violations of debate rules and decorum. I know I am prone to some of these failures from time to time on hot button topics. Then again, there are people who need nothing more than their faith to justify their stance on a subject... Which is fine, say you take it on faith, just don't call me a moron because I don't...

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 7:13 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 07:13:03 -0500

Good post, CPT Private RallyPoint Member.

I especially like this: "If you feel so heated that you must slam the other person for merely making a statement then maybe you need refrain from addressing it at that time."

Response by MSG Wade Huffman made Nov 6 at 2014 7:28 AM

MSG Wade Huffman — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 07:28:24 -0500

Your comments sum up why I have not been participating as often on here.

Response by LTC Jason Strickland made Nov 6 at 2014 7:35 AM

LTC Jason Strickland — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 07:35:41 -0500

Good words, CPT Private RallyPoint Member. Let's hope it resonates with the RP community...

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 7:43 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 07:43:22 -0500

"Polly Pissing Pants".... ok where do you find that in whatever Army reg that you Army types have....??? Just curious.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 7:59 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 07:59:33 -0500

Very good points CPT Private RallyPoint Member great post.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Nov 6 at 2014 8:43 AM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 08:43:09 -0500

I attempt to call out problems on either side of an argument, even the one I do not agree with, because even if I am wrong I would like to be properly informed. I wish more people could put aside their emotions and passions and participate in actual logical discussions in order to find the best answer, whether it is popular or not.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 12:14 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:14:39 -0500

Nice post and well said. I've not been here on RP for long but I've noticed some very heated discussions that, even though I do have an opinion, I stay out of. That's mainly because they are so divisive. It seems to me that commenting on them is like pissing up a rope.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 12:22 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:22:16 -0500

I agree with you, CPT Private RallyPoint Member. However, feelings and personal opinions are what drive the conversation to continue. The major issue is when the personal feelings, opinions and emotions bleed over the facts and skew/blind from the obvious truths. I have had to cut some discussions short due to the impending "you hurt my feelings" and downvotes that would undoubtedly avalanched my way. But, here is a little something for those people. [See Attached].

It is a shame that personnel aren't posting here due to this, though.

Response by SSG Ralph Innes made Nov 6 at 2014 12:31 PM

SSG Ralph Innes — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:31:23 -0500

Reasonable people can differ on a subject and learn from it; some actually change their position. Unreasonable people cannot carry on a conversation with someone they disagree with. If I wanted to merely carry on a conversation with someone I always agreed with, I would just text my buddies. I don't want to be surrounded by clones of me, but I agree, I don't have the time, patience, nor the engery to carry on a discussion with someone so close minded that neither of us benefits from the dialogue.

Response by PO2 Jonathan Scharff made Nov 6 at 2014 12:49 PM

PO2 Jonathan Scharff — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:49:47 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member I agree with your post. Let me also say on a different side I have appreciated reading your posts. I have found you to be a knowledgeable effective role model and a leader. I also appreciate your sense of humor. I have steered clear of a bunch of topics because I just don't see the point of arguing back and forth, either side learning nothing and the only result is people hurling personal attacks back and forth.

However, isn't there always a however? I have found that this is not the way to resolve this type of problem. COL Private RallyPoint Member, who I have a lot of respect for, had a post like this a few weeks ago. She also eloquently stated this "trend" on RP and asked for a more gentler kinder approach (I am paraphrasing her remarks) to communication and debate on RP. A lot of members had the exact same type of responses that are noted above. Just a lot of, yea I did that, and I guess I shouldn't have or I agree lets not do that, type of comments.

While I agree with all of that and I don't have a problem with this type of post itself. I believe if we want to curb or reduce the amount of personal attacks on RP the way to accomplish that is to respond immediately to that member that that type of behavior is not appropriate on this site. I have done this each time that I have seen it happening. I have to admit that some of the topics that might be controversial I don't even go in a read so I'm not representing to be some type of RP police. I believe that if members like you, and other respected leaders stepped up and commented immediately when they saw this type of behavior it would be drastically reduced. I don't mean to call any of us out, but if we are all leaders and professionals then we should be able to police ourselves and create a informative albeit at times passionate discussion of important issues.

So I place all of us responsible for this behavior. Let's commit to allow passionate discussions void of personal attacks, however let us all pledge to step up and be heard when someone crosses the line and allow RP to thrive the way it was intended!

Response by SGT Richard H. made Nov 6 at 2014 12:51 PM

SGT Richard H. — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:51:42 -0500

Name calling, accusing someone of "being on drugs", or any number of other derogatory statements just because a belief, political alignment, or other form of disagreement exists is extremely juvenile, and uncalled for.

If someone's viewpoint pisses you off, fine. So be it. Debate them with facts (as you see them).

Essentially, if you resort to insults or name-calling the conversation is over, and you just lost, because you have demonstrated in a quite obvious manner that you are out of relevant information to offer and have chosen to intellectually "take your football and go home".

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 2:37 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 14:37:58 -0500

I have noticed topics being broached under the guise of wanting a frank discussion but then limiting the scope of that conversation. Kind of like talking about cars but not the engine or the body. The big difference being that they are hot issues which by themselves are sure to create acrimony. I guess you can ask what hill that you want to die on.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Nov 6 at 2014 2:56 PM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 14:56:59 -0500

Great forum CPT Private RallyPoint Member. There have been numerous forum posts that I have glanced over a few comments and then moved on to the next forum because I did not want to get "actively engaged" in a battle of wits with an unarmed person. I say that in jest, but there is some truth the statement also. I like to add comments or information when it is relevant or when it is asked for. I try to stick to facts and when I do offer an opinion, I state that it is "my opinion." I try to keep an open mind on most topics and with most people, but there are those who "live with the blinders on" and do not take differences of opinion very well. Those are the folks who I just shake my head at and I "keep on scrolling" to the next topic of discussion.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 6 at 2014 3:03 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 15:03:38 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member you forgot to reference my book in "your" post. Please immediately transfer 20 up-votes to my account as a royalty.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 3:37 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 15:37:30 -0500

The problem is that, although "facts are facts", people often disagree on what the "facts" are.

Response by MAJ Dallas D. made Nov 6 at 2014 3:47 PM

MAJ Dallas D. — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 15:47:52 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member and MAJ Carl Ballinger

I agree the name calling has to go. This should still be a professional environment, one where we can discuss things without getting overheated.

I know we sometimes discuss touchy subjects but we all need to sometimes re-read our posts before we hit Respond to make sure we are not responding out of anger or emotion.

Great discussion and I thank you for the reminder.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made Nov 6 at 2014 4:36 PM

MSgt Keith Hebert — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:36:42 -0500

i have to say one thing about posting online like this is it allows you to step back and think about what you are gonna say.
i have been involved in some conversations that i expressed my personnel opinion and after some remarks started appearing i had to use alot of restraint not to yell back.
we are all adults here and must keep that in mind that we do have jr. members here and they will look at this and say " hey my 1Sgt can say that and yell and cuss so why cant I"
this country affords us the ability to speak our minds but we are still responsible for for the repercussions of remarks .
wow i went down the rabbit hole on that

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 4:52 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:52:44 -0500

I see this a lot not just on here but other sites as well. I'm blown away when you see comments or posts that are wholly false. I often wonder what happened to doing a little research on a topic before taking a side and commenting. I don't know how many times I've seen someone I've known for a while jump on a band wagon and make pretty heated comments on something they were uninformed or poorly educated on. I'd love it if we stuck with what we know as facts, kept our comments professional, and always make an effort to bring a positive contribuition to the table. I view sites like this as a place to go to garner information I can use to increase my professional toolkit, not see people get blasted in the threads. If used properly this site could be a great resource with unlimited potential to further your knowledge and find advice on situations foreign to you.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 4:54 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:54:23 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member well said.

People have a right to express what they deem is important. Yet, we must still be tactful and open-minded and understanding of where that person is coming from.

Sadly, most of society has a one-track mind and it is usually their biased and ignorant mindset that leads to crude remarks and offensive content. I do my best to approach one's subject or opinion without criticism and judgment, as we are all entitled to our own opinions and self-expressions and should respect one another's viewpoint as mature, professional adults.

That's what makes us all unique and great - individuality; to each his own.

Response by SPC David S. made Nov 6 at 2014 5:13 PM

SPC David S. — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 17:13:49 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member there are always going to be outliers. Some will be more obvious than others but it is up to the users that seek out value in the RP community to police these individuals. We need to tag them for what they are and their lack of merit in discussions. I have found that if you try to debate an irrational thought you become irrational by engaging in such an endeavor. Most are reluctant to down vote the comments as it just adds fuel to the fire, however if I where to see a comment with 100 down votes I would take note of the user for later reference. The only possible benefit is in the prevention of group think, and I use 'think' loosely.

Response by PO1 Mike Wolff made Nov 6 at 2014 10:40 PM

PO1 Mike Wolff — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 22:40:14 -0500

What you describe, sir, seems much akin to how political parties seem to focus on anything negative about the opposition. It is my personal observation that there seems to be a wide trend where people have fallen into the trap of allowing emotion to control where it might be better for rational thought to prevail. It seems that many are only looking for the facts that support or defend their arguments or beliefs, rather than looking to understand the situation. Remembering to classify beliefs and facts separately and honestly goes a long way to establishing credibility. This really isn't rocket science, but doing honest research into things seems particularly difficult for those who won't detach emotion and bias in their quest for truth and fact.

Response by SA Harold Hansmann made Nov 10 at 2014 10:09 AM

SA Harold Hansmann — Mon, 10 Nov 2014 10:09:16 -0500

Very interesting observation. I may be guilty at times of said observations, I personally try to abstain for name calling ( for it is childish). I will admit some topics I get emotionally heated about, ( such as Mexican pledge in American schools) and some areas, I am ignorant on and try to get both sides of the story, before I comment. But… we are all human and do tend to get stuck in the tracks of a set way of thinking and reacting, with that said we also can, if we try, fill in those tracks and start new tracks in a better way of reacting and thinking.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2014 11:20 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Nov 2014 23:20:54 -0500

Yet again I find myself questioning a statement for something that shouldn't even be. Kanye West may have said it best when he said "Old folks talking about back in my day. But homey this is my day." I appreciate all that you have done for our great country but comparing WWII to GWOT is not really applicable. These are two different eras with time different mission sets. I swear if I get another "look here youngster, back in....." I would love to listen but TTPs are constantly changing. We had to change the way we fought in Iraq several times. The way they fought in the polynesian war but it just isn't fitting today.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 9:13 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 09:13:19 -0500

LT the comment you made on the POGS article about commo, wasn't very appealing.. This Soldier poured her heart out about her job and here comes the super bully, just smack her in the face, well smack all signal soldiers... There you go LT there's a life lesson, respect goes both ways!!!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2015 6:42 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 18:42:33 -0500

I can say that this topic is rearing up again.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2015 12:10 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 12:10:34 -0400

Folks who act like they know everything really irritate those of us that do. :)

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2015 12:46 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 12:46:13 -0400

Ur a trend

Response by SPC Donald Tribble made Mar 29 at 2015 4:19 PM

SPC Donald Tribble — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:19:29 -0400

I love a good debate/discussion. It's always good to hear other points of view. It allows us to grow as people and avoid tunnel vision. A good leader always wants to hear opposing views. However, in the "extremism society" that we seem to be in this day and age it's all about who's loudest and the most disgusting.