Is Date of Rank outdated?

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 18:00:59 -0500

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Feb 26 at 2015 6:08 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 18:08:47 -0500

Date of rank still means something as it pertains to longevity. Not on a pay scale type of longevity.... It is important to help determine when you are eligible for next promotion if nothing else. Also, with that trend of thought, if there are 2 members that are otherwise equal, select the one that is senior as that person is closer to promotion (based on date). Just my $0.02....

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 6:20 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 18:20:40 -0500

It does make a difference when it comes to promotions (sequence numbers), so it's important in that regard.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 6:24 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 18:24:35 -0500

I don't know anyone that actuallyuses Date of Rank to tell someone that is he same rank as I am to do something. Though most that I work with understand that the authority of your position out weighs the rank on your sleeve/lappel. So really the only time it really matters is for promotion date once selected it (in the Air Force anyway).

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 6:27 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 18:27:16 -0500

It does show experience in a giving pay grade. New versus long in the tooth.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 6:28 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 18:28:46 -0500

Date of Rank still bears some significance when establishing promotion potential or assignment. Likewise, it should bear effect on evaluations, as I don't think a freshly promoted E-5 just assigned to a squad leader position would have the same experience as someone that has served in the same positions for such a time.

Otherwise, I don't think it carried quite the significance for the most part among peers. It may be used in jest, but I've yet to see someone say "AHHA, but I outrank you by DOR!!!"

If they did, they would likely be looking for a quick throat punch.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Feb 27 at 2015 6:44 AM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 06:44:23 -0500

I have seen it used (AF wise) to determine who is going to be NCOIC in a shop with two people the same rank.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Feb 27 at 2015 9:07 AM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 09:07:25 -0500

I don't agree with what the no says. I think when it come to promotion or putting someone in charge it matters. If you have 2 E-4's or what ever and they are both good at what they do and its going to piss them off who you choose then use date of rank.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 9:24 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 09:24:20 -0500

It should be used very sparingly and when used should be for promotion/responsibilities as a last result. Just because you have existed in a rank does not make your more or less qualified. The results of you work make you more or less qualified.

Response by GySgt Joe Strong made Feb 27 at 2015 11:53 AM

GySgt Joe Strong — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 11:53:15 -0500

I don't know about in the Army. But in the Corps if there are two Marines, one of them outranks the other, DOR is one discriminator.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 27 at 2015 11:56 AM

SGT Jim Z. — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 11:56:53 -0500

Date of Rank is not outdated and when computing retirement points and benefits it still plays an important role. I also believe someone who just got promoted is not an equal of the crusty old E-x or O-x whatever.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Feb 27 at 2015 6:31 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 18:31:46 -0500

There's a huge difference in an E6 who has been in for 4 years and one who has been in for 13 with 5 or more years time in grade.

Response by 1SG Frank Rocha made Feb 27 at 2015 10:36 PM

1SG Frank Rocha — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 22:36:14 -0500

Hard work, dedication, and professional excellence in all phases of technical and tactical proficiency is a measurement that goes far in determining the potential to serve at the next higher pay grade. If a soldier with less Time in Grade as the next soldier gets promoted first due to a considerable difference in measured promotion potential then that soldier has seniority regardless of age or time in service (TIS). We want the most qualified to move up first. They deserve the respect that goes with that. they earned it.

In the higher pay grades such as MSG, 1SG, SGM and CSM these lines of separation can seem to blur a bit but make no mistake they are there. I have witnessed the demonstration of its existence personally but then again that depends on where you are and who your serving with.

I have seen personnel spend a considerable amount of time in the same pay grade only to be "passed up" by other high speed soldiers who are upwardly mobile. If an E-6 with 15 years Time in Grade (TIMIG) and 25 years TIS is now junior in rank to an E-7 with only 10 years TIS do we still go by longevity?

How about an E-5 with 10 Years TIMIG and 15 years TIS getting promoted to E-6 a year after a soldier that has only 7 years TIS, do we still go by longevity?

the answer to both is, no. We go by merit and qualification. Longevity alone does not a wise man make. If all I had to do is wait 30 years and suddenly knowledge, wisdom, experience, and understanding suddenly rushes into my head like downloading a program into a computer then hard work, dedication, and determination would become obsolete but you can't and it isn't.

There is a valid and justified reason we have a system to determine seniority, first by pay grade, then date of rank, then time in service (TIS) in the Army, then TIS in the military (all branches served in combined), then age (older is more senior). If we all buy into and have faith and trust in the system that is in place (designed and maintained by the Army's finest and most experienced minds) everything works much smoother and effectively. We do not accept the role of NCO to decide what rules and policies we want to enforce based on like or dislike, we accept it to enforce rules and policy regardless of our personal view of those policies, this includes rules determining seniority.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 28 at 2015 8:50 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 08:50:21 -0500

Not at all.

There is payscale issues, since an E7 at 10 years and an E7 at 18 years should be compensated completely differently. Yes, I have met both.

Additionally, at lower ranks, it is one of the quickest ways to tell who is in charge. At higher ranks, it doesn't come up as often, but take a "working party" of several hundred Marines. I was at the range, one time, and they asked who the senior man was. We looked for the Sgts first, none present. Then the dozen or so Cpls did a quick assessment. At the time I had something like 24 months, and the senior guy was at 30 (there was no one between us). They split the Marines between us, and set us to work.

Also, for Marines, we get promotion points for Time in Grade. 5 points/month as part of our composite score for LCpl to Cpl, and Cpl to Sgt.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 9:22 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:22:06 -0500

Date of rank is important for pay, as well as where you are in your professional career.
A captain who just pinned on is (usually) not the same as a captain who is being looked at for major after 7 years experience.
In looking at individuals for different jobs, I want to know how long they have been their current rank, it helps me get a feel for their experience. Of course I will still talk with them, but date of rank gives expectations.
In terms of figuring out who is the 'ranking' individual, I haven't seen this much being necessary, usually it is based on the job, not necessarily the date of rank.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Feb 28 at 2015 9:35 AM

GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:35:28 -0500

Seriously?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 11:16 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:16:56 -0500

All comments above discuss pay, promotion, etc but forget about evaluations. As a Division Chief, I supervise 3 LTC's who have date of rank on me and by regulations I can rate them. But who wants to be rated by an officer junior to them. So in the end date of rank does matter.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Feb 28 at 2015 1:12 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:12:55 -0500

I hated your survey options. It makes a difference for practical reasons. I know of an installation where that determined the Senior Commander between 5 or 6 colonels by DOR, like the highlander, there can only be one. Has nothing to do with "comparing our sizes". There are situations where DOR determines rater/rated relationships. I have had to rate peers based on DOR. It becomes practical in situations where soldiers are isolated and may only be with peers ( think code of conduct). It is a lot simpler than double elimination paper rock and scissors. The S1 will frequently have to assign INvestigating Officers, panel members, board presidents, summary court martial officers, using DOR. Doesn't have much to do with one person getting the drop on another.

Response by SGT John Wesley made Mar 22 at 2015 11:10 AM

SGT John Wesley — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:10:28 -0400

Not sure how I'd vote. I'm a firm believer that your actions should determine your promotion potential. Date of Rank should be the last thing a promotion board considers. Pay wise? Well, that's a bit sticky isn't it?

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 22 at 2015 11:13 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:13:11 -0400

It is... what it is. Most times it matters not, unless you make a big deal of it, but there are instances when it matters... Like how is senior, who will be responsible etc.. It that is not already clearly defined. I don't think it matters more now, or less now. It is just one of those things.

Take MACOM staff section, branch, division... The Chiefs are not selected by a board (HQDA) like we are for command, but someone still needs to be in charge (the chief). Generally, that is the senior person. Unity of command matters in most every aspect of the Army.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 12:14 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 12:14:38 -0400

I once witnessed an argument between two LT Cols. It got fairly heated and the senior (I assume he was senior) asked "What is your date of rank Col?"

The answer ended the argument. "6'2" and 210 lbs, what's yours?"

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Mar 22 at 2015 12:27 PM

SGT Rick Ash — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 12:27:34 -0400

Time in Service and Time in Grade is important for promotions.

Response by SFC Charles S. made Mar 22 at 2015 12:40 PM

SFC Charles S. — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 12:40:00 -0400

I don't care if I outrank people. But date of rank matters because someone has to outrank the others or a military hierarchy of rank structure will fall apart. Rank has no meaning if everyone of the same rank have the same status. Someone must be the directed leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 7:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:40:35 -0400

Instead of date of rank, shouldn't key leader positions be slotted by leadership potential? Experience is extremely important, but if I have to choose between 2 E4's on who is going to be a team leader, DOR may play in, but it is not the sole discriminator.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 7:55 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:55:47 -0400

Yes it matters, we are not all the same. Seniority serves a purpose. Our job is to defend democracy not practice it!, someone has to be the Senior, someone needs to be the Junior.

Response by Cpl Tou Lee Yang made Mar 23 at 2015 1:36 AM

Cpl Tou Lee Yang — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 01:36:32 -0400

Now days, it all depends on your popularity. If you're popular you will be made in charge while the boss leaves for a meeting. At least that is how it is in the Navy.

Response by SFC George Smith made Nov 4 at 2016 12:54 AM

SFC George Smith — Fri, 04 Nov 2016 00:54:54 -0400