Is dual citizenship a double edge sword?

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 13:56:39 -0400

Hello,

I am currently a Cadet in an Army ROTC bataillon, and I was wondering if my dual citizenship will potentially stop me in my career as an Officer.

I was born and raised in France from an American father and a French mother. I decided to moved to the States to get my B.S in an I.T field after I quit Law School (in France, you can jump in Law School after Hogh School).

I know you must renounce any other passport to get the TS clearance, but how will my previous life in France affect my further assignments if I choose to branch MI, and potentially work in the intelligence field?

Also, have you ever seen a native French serving in the Armed Forces?

I would appreciate any insights.

Thanks,
CDT Green

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 2:08 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:08:10 -0400

Well, if it has not been explained, to get a TS clearance, there will be a severe in depth background check on you. As long as your background is cleaner than someone after a gallon of prune juice, then you should be good to go. But, I would recommend dropping the French Citizenship asap, especially if you want to serve as an Officer in the US Military. Will more than likely save yourself some serious headaches you don't need down the road. Otherwise, you can always ask these questions of you ROTC BN instructors

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 2:34 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:34:49 -0400

If I recall correctly. You can not have duel citizenship as an officer. But you can check with your PMS or HR rep and your school.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 2:39 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:39:06 -0400

According to Cadet Command (CC) Regulation 145-1 and its associated CC Pamphlet 145-4, you MUST be a U.S. Citizen or national to contract in the Senior ROTC program (as an MS 3/4), as that is a statutory requirement of gaining a security clearance. The REG says nothing about dual-citizenship, but the PAM does. (Both can be found via Google pretty easily.)

According to CC Pam 145-4, Section 2-39 (Citizenship):
"a. Citizenship criteria apply to all contracted Cadets, both scholarship and Non-Scholarship. This is a statutory requirement. No waivers/exceptions are authorized. Cadets who hold dual citizenship must be advised that, when requested, they will be required to provide a statement to the OPM investigator, or the adjudicative authority, expressing their willingness to renounce dual citizenship. Failure to do so may result in denial of a security clearance, which is a prerequisite for commissioning, and will result in disenrollment."

That's very particular language. It does NOT say you must surrender your citizenship now; it says you must be prepared to do so if requested by the service. It is entirely possible that, due to the dual-citizenship being with a friendly nation, you may be able to hold on to it, but that's up to the service.

That said, for Military Intelligence, or any job requiring access to TS and/or SCI, it is going to likely be an issue, and you will probably be asked to renounce in order to assess into that branch. But, the important thing is that you don't need to do it now, only at that point when requested.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 2:41 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:41:57 -0400

I'm of dual citizenship. Born in France. Raised in Cote d'Ivoire. Enlisted . I chose to keep my French citizenship. I don't have TS. But then again,vim not looking for one.
It hasn't hinder me thus far in my career

Response by SSgt Khanh Pham made Aug 27 at 2015 2:50 PM

SSgt Khanh Pham — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:50:52 -0400

Hi,

I feel your situation. If you like a simple, clear, and trouble free life. The best bet for you is to drop the French citizenship and just keep the US citizenship, given your intention of going military, and intelligence.

Not to speak badly about any one in the military in this regard, but it is not the place with the most open of minds. Your questionable loyalty is not in your interests as you already felt instintively (trust and harness this instinct of yours). Let me just confirm that for you, it is not in your interest to have both while handling national security secret. However, you can still do it because the law is on your side. haha the law on your side doesnt mean much at times.

The US state department are not too worry about dual citizenship. Maybe you can consult the consular in France and see if their management will give your the State Department perspective on your situation. The best policy for your situation is transparency. As a nation of immigrant, a global empire, we should not pretend our people do not have dual interests. However, reality is people are not matured to accept the world as one home. You will experiences bigots who regard your dual citizen as a vulnerability because it is posible. (I am a Vietnamese that have been looked at as Korean Spy, Chinese Spy, due to my appearance and accent, so look at that for what it's worth)

The military is has a single culture, and also many subcultures. Your fortune will dictate what quality of team you have, and that quality will dictate how well your questionable loyalty can be handled. This is the military main and sub culture I refer to. As in your loyalty being handled properly or handled with negligent. Military is notorious for negligent as it is somewhat untouchable by the arms of the law. (I am working to change that) Your priotiy at the lowest totem pole will be to avoid as much negative attention, and bask in as many positive attention as possible. What should be and what is best for society, is better left for a later time when you have a big stick to back up your position.

Your reference to french citizenship being a double edged sword may be a misleading your decision. I see it as a single edged sword, cutting down your US success. The French language, however is a single edged sword cutting to success for your military career. So keep the french language, culture, connection, and local knowledge if you still have any. I can only see your double citizenship being double edged sword if you were intending to use it to become a double agent. Which you could be a French spy/sleeper, for all I know. You already know the NSA spies on everyone citizens or not. You should expect the same from the French counterpart. This thread alone may be enough to flag you for future recruitment by Frenchies.

If you're joining the military, then I dont see you coming from the French elite. If you're a common person with middle class mean, then it's probably better being in the US any way. From an economic stand point, you can obtain more with the US citizenship. You may reapply for your french citizen after leaving military, hopefully the French government will understand. You can even consult the French embassy and see what their policy is.

Your perception of US military may be on the naive side. I was an E-5 with 11 years a bit less naive, but I would recommend you to consult and seek mentorshipw ith E-9, and O-7. AF Mentor is another website that you can seek mentorship. If you are going down path of military profession, at least aim for that level of success. I was an under achiever, so I would not judge you if you are not aspired to be at the top. I would also want you to not judge yourself, for whatever decision you make.

Response by LTC Michael Hrycak made Aug 27 at 2015 3:03 PM

LTC Michael Hrycak — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 15:03:21 -0400

The oath of U.S. Citizenship: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God." I have always been curious about "dual" citizenship status. Since you renounced all allegiance and fidelity to France, I always assumed it meant France still recognizes your citizenship. As previously advised, find a mentor that has had similar experience and let them guide you through your military service. I have done this many times during my service in the U.S. Army. Good luck.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 3:16 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 15:16:54 -0400

I would like to add my voice to the chorus calling for you to drop the French citizenship, given your stated intention to try to branch MI and get a TS clearance.

I'm a natural-born citizen, but married to a German. It's been an issue in my last periodic reinvestigation, because the investigator made it an issue. I'm lucky he didn't recommend denial. And this is my wife, not me....

You having the dual citizenship yourself is going to be a stumbling block somewhere down the road. Better to take care of it sooner rather than later.

Response by COL Jeffrey Carra made Aug 27 at 2015 3:38 PM

COL Jeffrey Carra — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 15:38:21 -0400

To be an officer, you need a clearance - period. And only US citizens are eligible for a clearance. I had a warrant officer who worked for me - he lost his clearance and had to separate because he bought a condo in Mexico (you can't even own real property subject to another sovereign and retain a security clearance of any level).

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 27 at 2015 4:02 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 16:02:30 -0400

I can only speak anecdotally on this. My former Scout Sniper Platoon commander was married to a foreign national, who was born in a foreign country, but had lived in the US since age 5~. It caused no end of problems when they were adjudicating his TS/SCI (SSBI) in 1997~.

Response by MAJ Anthony Henderson made Aug 27 at 2015 4:10 PM

MAJ Anthony Henderson — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 16:10:45 -0400

I haven't met a native from France serving in the military but I've met some service members from other countries. Normally they became US Citizens. I'm not sure if they became dual citizens. If you are honest about your background up front during the security clearance process it should be taken into account. You have to decided on what you want to do and what is best for you and/or your family.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 27 at 2015 4:25 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 16:25:04 -0400

Great question. MAJ Private RallyPoint Member hit it out of the park with his answer. I will add that when it comes to TS clearances, I have seen quite a few incidents over the years where even having a spouse who had dual citizenship created nightmares for the pending applicant. I don't mean to stir the pot of mistrust/discrimination but the spouses that were German (back in the early 90's) created more heart burn than say someone from Brazil. T me, that makes perfect sense since the Berlin wall just came down. Point being, the green machine likes things to go smoothly and the more complex our situation, the more the process slows down.

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Aug 27 at 2015 4:37 PM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 16:37:04 -0400

I have a very close friend, a retired 06 Doc, who has had dual citizen and deployed with me - and several times before. But not in any kind of intel domain. We're of course both retired now. It did come into play at the end of his career with DFAS - as he was living abroad.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 5:15 PM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 17:15:04 -0400

BLUF: Not at all.

They will do a thorough background ((but, fair warning, they have been backlogged for ages lately)). Have a lot of paper ready to list friends, relatives, associates, etc... Dates you've known them... Phone numbers, addresses, etc. The Periodic Review (every 5 years) is the bane of my existence due to my HUGE Irish family all over the world. It is tedious but completely manageable.

You will be fine. As long as there are no criminal/nefarious activities or affiliations, you will be good to go!!

I was born in Northern Ireland (e.g., citizen of the United Kingdom). When I started my clearance paperwork back when fire was invented, I was told that I had to forego my UK citizenship. I never did anything to actively hand it over. Fast forward, I married a Brit (later divorced). In life planning, one option was my getting out and becoming his dependent (Whewww!!! Close one, that). According to UK Immigration, I was still a citizen and could just walk into the NIS office (Social Security counterpart) and apply for my number. HOWEVER, I was considering going Reserves to continue to retain my skill set. According to SSO, I would red-flag on my Periodic Review and likely not retain my TS++/risk losing it. ((p.s., when I terminate my clearance, I could potentially have three passports back--US, UK, and Ireland). :)

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Aug 27 at 2015 7:22 PM

MAJ Matthew Arnold — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 19:22:43 -0400

As you probably know, large parts of the world are French speaking. France and other francophone countries are of strategic importance to the US. Your French language skills, specially native speaking skill, will come in handy in an army career. I just spent 7 years going back and forth to Africa. Those service members who spoke French and English had some advantage over those who only spoke English. Look into becoming a Foreign Area Officer (FAO) and specializing in Africa. I very much enjoyed working in Africa.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2015 7:32 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 07:32:45 -0400

As far as I know, you cannot have a security clearance if you have dual citizenship. Which means you can not be an officer or work most MOSs in the Military.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 1:05 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Oct 2015 13:05:47 -0400

I had to give up my togolese citizenship as well so i wish you good luck..bonne chance frangin

Response by SFC Randy Hellenbrand made Nov 9 at 2021 5:19 PM

SFC Randy Hellenbrand — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:19:04 -0500

Can't see where it is a huge problem. I served with several americans who were born in foreign countries. We do have our military all over the place you know. I almost was born in Japan. I even served with a guy who was born behind the Iron Curtain. But that was a millennium ago. Things change and not always for the best.

Response by SrA John Monette made Nov 10 at 2021 7:10 AM

SrA John Monette — Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:10:02 -0500

The US does not recognize dual citizenship. So, yes.