Is it okay to berate the Commander In Chief?

2014-10-30T03:29:05-04:00

This is two part question: Can we openly condemn the POTUS and his policies...in uniform, or as a civilian? I believe there are many rumors of active military, officers and NCOs that have been discharged for their negative open views about the POTUS. I believe I read not very long ago, we have an oath, a duty, and an obligation to respect the position of Commander-in-Chief.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2014 3:34 AM

2014-10-30T03:34:37-04:00

If you are in the military, it is not okay. He is the Commander-in-Chief. It doesn't matter if we agree with his views or not. Period.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2014 3:39 AM

2014-10-30T03:39:32-04:00

I can't tell you a legal answer based on Regs or UCMJ, but my own opinion is that we can express our opinion, if done in a tactful and respectful manner as possible. Now this ability surely has a sliding scale, where higher ranking brass have less of an ability to do so. Surely general officers and likely flag officers would have to be especially cautious. I can't remember the General that was in Afghanistan and called back after being belligerent about POTUS to a reporter.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2014 4:46 AM

2014-10-30T04:46:06-04:00

Maybe this should of been a 3 part question. What about in a closed forum, like this for example? Where only like minded professionals wouldn't take it as a sign of subterfuge...or undermining. We should be able to openly discuss amongst ourselves, I mean, things that are Officer/NCO business, or things that effects troop morale and direction of the US military. Am I thinking too big?

Response by SFC W Michael made Oct 30 at 2014 8:55 AM

2014-10-30T08:55:19-04:00

If you are in the military, you should neer show disrespect to any leader, from your team leader on up to CIC. If I remember right, this is actually punishable under UCMJ. As a retired soldier, and for others not military affiliated, the 1st Amendment allows free speech, including showing your views towards your government and it's leaders, as long as it does not cross certain boundaries, such as libel or threats. Having said all of that, I still show respect for the CIC, whether I agree or disagree with his decisions.

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Oct 30 at 2014 9:05 AM

2014-10-30T09:05:34-04:00

Before giving a full answer, I have to ask a question. Please define "condemn" in this question. I've seen people offer disagreements with the POTUS, and they were accused of condemning him. I see a difference.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2014 9:49 AM

2014-10-30T09:49:48-04:00

Religion and Politics; 2 things I do not talk about in uniform. Period.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Oct 30 at 2014 9:17 PM

2014-10-30T21:17:04-04:00

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member , Opinions as long as expressed professionally and with respect to the office are yours. If you openly bash the President with remarks which are not professional or present an image of disrespect then that is wrong. EXAMPLE: I disagree with the President's policy on ________________ . This is acceptable. A remark which insults, degrades, demeans, or is otherwise disrespectful is not OK. I will not post an example.

Best to avoid this in uniform. As misinterpretation or misrepresentation are real possibilities.

Respect the position, follow orders (unless illegal or unlawful) and be a good steward of democracy. If you disagree, VOTE. If you agree, VOTE.

I am retired and have LOTS of opinions. They are mine. I earned them. You did too.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 12:17 AM

2014-10-31T00:17:35-04:00

The relevant article for officers is UCMJ Article 88:
"Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."

Although this does not explicitly apply to Enlisted personnel, I believe that the recent (last ten to fifteen years) is that the principle of this article is applied to Es through the use of Article 134. Criticism of policies has been considered permissible, although maintaining a respectful and professional tone is both more effective and a better idea.

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Oct 31 at 2014 1:26 AM

2014-10-31T01:26:42-04:00

As a civilian yes you can disagree with political leadership, what good is having freedom of speech and the press if it isn't used to express disagreement with leadership? The means and methods used are what are open for debate. If you are critical of the President or any politician and make it an outright attack without explaining what you don't agree with, or worse you advocate unlawful means of changing the government then there are some serious issues with the method chosen.

Even in the military you can disagree however you can't show up in uniform to condemn the policies and decisions of leadership. It's even more restrictive if you're commissioned thanks to Article 88 which prevents you from pretty much voicing any criticism of state or federal officials.

There was a Marine that was discharged a few years ago for creating a military tea party page on Facebook.

Response by Cpl Don "GUNNY" Miller made Oct 31 at 2014 9:48 AM

2014-10-31T09:48:17-04:00

Service members deserve the same respect from the President, and I don't believe they get ANY respect from the current president.
While in uniform no, while off duty yes, as a civilian yes especially while not doing anything to protect American citizens, and undermining the country and the constitution.

Response by SSG Maurice P. made Oct 31 at 2014 9:44 PM

2014-10-31T21:44:30-04:00

I WOULD HAVE TO SAY NO FREAKIN WAY, WHILE ON ACTIVE DUTY OR AS A RESERVIST BUT IM A RETIRED VETERAN AND I WILL TALK SHIT ALL DAY LONG...............................................
I LOVE AMERICA AND ITS MILITARY AND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES..........
I REMEMBER 2008 O said (i want to fundamentally change america) THIS HIGH SCHOOL DROPOUT GOT IT O.........MORE BAD SHIT WENT DOWN ON YOUR WATCH THAN THE BUSHES COMBINED AND YOU ALLOWED THE DOLLAR TO GET SHAMED ON THE WORLD MARKET

Response by SSG Maurice P. made Oct 31 at 2014 9:55 PM

2014-10-31T21:55:14-04:00

People remember me that slo high school dropout,i need help again..........................................
WHAT DID THE STIMULUS DO FOR CREATING JOBS AND JUMP STARTING THE ECONOMY........
WHAT IT DIDN'T DO WAS PREVENT THE DOLLAR FROM BEING DEVALUED................................

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Nov 1 at 2014 7:51 AM

2014-11-01T07:51:36-04:00

If the shoe fits... We have a President who berates his own people and us veterans through his policies and inactions so it's not a one way street.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2014 11:07 AM

2014-11-01T11:07:17-04:00

We all took an oath to defend the Constitution not a person or party. Fortunately, the respect we had to uphold while in the service doesn't have to extend to our civilian lives. My oath has now expiration date, but my contract and adherence to the UCMJ ended. I vote and I will not forsake my First Amendment right to voice my opinion regarding a "leader" who does not value Constitution and even violates the laws he signed into existence.

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2014 12:20 PM

2014-11-01T12:20:35-04:00

Like it was already said you take the oath you are in uniform even when you aren't. It falls back to a prior discussion I responded on regardless of the "Person" you have to respect the Position/ Rank. The rest is immaterial. You don't respect the office they will punish you enlisted or officer, that has been proven already. Express views & opinions tactfully and with respect, do not speak out against the office that makes bad juju for your career and livelihood. And lastly though this is a "private forum", you do not know everybody that is on it personally, that being said you can't know their views and opinions or loyalties. Peace out & watch your six everyone.

Response by SPC John Cummings made Dec 27 at 2014 7:38 PM

2014-12-27T19:38:15-05:00

I'm a vet who disagrees with 90% of the POTUS policy However, for service members -- absolutely not under no circumstance, outside the confidence of peers, should p

Response by SPC John Cummings made Dec 27 at 2014 7:42 PM

2014-12-27T19:42:28-05:00

I also don't believe discharged individual should be able to profit from opinions formed from access to classified material

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Dec 27 at 2014 8:03 PM

2014-12-27T20:03:14-05:00

It would not be wise to do so. You never know who is within an ear shot or who or what is recording. We also have an oath, and I am serious as a heart attack when it comes to our oath. We are required to respect the President and his position. Now what I do in the confines of my home is my business, and I do not share that with my subordinates.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2014 8:02 PM

2014-12-27T20:02:47-05:00

It's like any other controversial issue. You can't be in uniform and do it. On Facebook or in public. As a civilian do whatever you want within the boundaries of the law. But show up to a political rally in uniform and be in the wrong.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2014 8:10 PM

2014-12-27T20:10:03-05:00

You can say anything you like, anywhere you want...just know this, there will be consequences.

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made Dec 27 at 2014 8:31 PM

2014-12-27T20:31:03-05:00

No it is not... And no justification makes it acceptable. I have to remind both mil and civ at work (I'm a DA Civilian) that when the topic comes up that it is not acceptable.

Response by SPC(P) Micah Lavigne made Dec 27 at 2014 10:40 PM

2014-12-27T22:40:34-05:00

The way I see It there is nothing wrong with a Service Member disagreeing with politics. However, how we deal with those agreements is a totally different matter. We cannot use our position, uniform or service to publicly express our disagreements in a Political Fashion. There are many things I disagree with in the current administration. I am Human, the down side is I will eventually disagree with anyone on anything. However If I say go to a guns rights rally I will be in civilians and refrain from using or Identifying myself as a member of the Armed Forces. I share my disagreements in the political ethics of those in office, however I do not brandish my uniform and my service information is kept hidden, even then I am very cautious of what I say so it cannot be misinterpreted. But I never once said anything to slander the Office President of the United States, disagree with policies and decisions yes never to slander.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 3 at 2015 6:08 PM

2015-01-03T18:08:04-05:00

The OPs thread is similar to if an employee worked for a company and they aired the own personal negative thoughts about the CEO or the organization. Doing so would not be wise and would put the employee under a radar so to speak.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 6:16 PM

2015-01-03T18:16:58-05:00

Ladies and Gentlemen, I would like to in form everyone to review the UCMJ and review Article 88-Contempt towards officials. This charge is applicable to statements made by military members on social media because YOU are under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ 24/7. When you get discharge and have a DD214 in hand, then you have have the freedom of free speech!

Response by TSgt Kevin Buccola made Jan 3 at 2015 6:17 PM

2015-01-03T18:17:10-05:00

I am going to say something that was told to me in the 80's. As military members we support and defend Democracy but live and work in a Dictatorship. I was told this by a General and I am still friends with this person today.

In today's society you cannot say anything against anyone with out it being used against you later on. No matter what--you have to respect the office - you might have not have voted or agree with the one in the office but you must respect the office.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Jan 3 at 2015 11:01 PM

2015-01-03T23:01:21-05:00

I just won't do it, but that is me. After a long time on active duty, it was never a possibility anyway. Now that I'm retired and I have every right, I still can't bring myself to do it. We put heart and soul into defending the system we have in place and if the country votes him in, who am I to go against the people. I'm not endorsing him by any means, and some policy changes make me crazy but again, they were legally elected by a system that we fight and die to protect. Call me a nostalgic dork, but in a way I feel like if I go against my currenty elected leaders, I am disrespecting the memory of those who gave everything to defend the Constitution. It seems that this isn't a popular position on RallyPoint and as much as that saddens me..............

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

Voltaire

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Jan 4 at 2015 12:27 AM

2015-01-04T00:27:20-05:00

As a civilian? Sure.

As someone subject to UCMJ? Probably not a smart move if you don't plan on an Echo Tango Suitcase in the near future.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Jan 24 at 2015 10:58 PM

2015-01-24T22:58:21-05:00

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member, here are President Theodore Roosevelt's thoughts on the need for truth in regards to the presidency. He made this statement to the Kansas City Star newspaper in the last year of his life, so his comments, in my opinion, were directed to the general public, a civilian population. They are nonetheless, timeless in their application:
"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2015 3:11 AM

2015-01-25T03:11:43-05:00

While I would agree with a majority of your responses...if you read the discussion: Things you like about President Obama...there was plenty of berating...so I'm a confused now.

Response by CW3 Clayton C. made Jan 25 at 2015 8:40 AM

2015-01-25T08:40:54-05:00

I mean, you can be openly critical but what good can it possibly do for your career or the careers of those around you? The short answer is nothing. If we need to vent we have spouses and/or friends. Additionally, (strictly my opinion) venting should be done outside of the workplace, or at the very least behind a closed door. My wife is my best friend and, unfortunately for her, she gets to hear whatever might be weighing on my mind.

Over the past 13 years I've seen the rolling changes in the military and some of them have not always been easy. Understandably, frustrations grow in times of added stress and it is also my opinion that one shouldn't be judged strictly from one moment of weakness, especially if that frustration becomes unmanageable in public.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2015 10:50 AM

2015-01-25T10:50:28-05:00

NEVER while in uniform or while comporting oneself as a soldier/sailor/marine! While a civilian, however, freedom of speech and expression reigns. It really is that simple.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Jan 31 at 2015 11:28 PM

2015-01-31T23:28:13-05:00

First, I'd like to ask, has the POTUS even been properly vetted? And no, I'm not talking about Minority Speaker Nancy Pelosi's revised endorsement in which she removed the words "Constitutionally qualified" [which in and of itself sure does raise red flags!!!], I'm talking about a completely transparent accounting for the documents provided that Obama used to establish his eligibility, which notable expert forensic analysts have concluded to be computer generated forgeries, and not even good ones at that.

If our (p)Resident is legit, then why is he spending millions of dollars in legal fees to keep documents of public record [normally available to the public], out of the public purview? Do innocent people do that? Obama promised transparency in gov't and he also said, "The only people that don't want to disclose the truth, are people with something to hide." So what is he hiding?

The evidence implicating the Cmdr-in-Chief is mostly circumstantial, because most of the direct evidence has been obscured or destroyed. Again, THAT should tell you something.

If the sitting President refuses to address public concern about his qualifications and does not meet the Constitutional requirements of the office they inhabit, are they still legit? Can someone be faulted for openly criticizing a fraud who is usurping the highest office and defrauding the American public? ???

Response by CPT Kyle Butters made Feb 1 at 2015 5:31 PM

2015-02-01T17:31:21-05:00

The answer is always no. It's perfectly acceptable to disagree with policy but it is unacceptable to disrespect the President. Many Soldiers think it is okay to be disrespectful since in open society it is, but we must all remember that we are not normal citizens.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 4:25 PM

2015-02-03T16:25:01-05:00

Berate? No. Give a respectful, dissenting opinion? Sure.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 12:25 AM

2015-02-04T00:25:21-05:00

While still serving one has to be careful what is said about the CiC. However, once a person leaves the military they can express their opinion in any way they wish. If the POTUS doesn’t respect the office, the constitution, or the American people, then why on earth should anyone respect him?

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Feb 4 at 2015 12:36 AM

2015-02-04T00:36:01-05:00

My understanding is that you are not free to "bash" when speaking as a member of or as a representative of the armed forces. You are free to speak your mind as a private citizen who happens to be a member of the armed forces. The best example I ever saw was a CPO I knew (Boatswains Mate) who made some pretty rough statements about POTUS while on liberty in civilian attire, mostly because it made a brief news item. His division officer questioned him about it on board and he simply told him that he didn't have any opinions to discuss while he was in uniform or on duty.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 8:41 AM

2015-02-04T08:41:41-05:00

I am trying my best to hold my tongue, all bets are off once he is former president :p

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 4:32 PM

2015-02-04T16:32:53-05:00

I'll start out by saying what's good for the goose, where it concerns showing "respect" for the CIC, isn't always good for the gander. Especially between political parties and ideologies.

My biggest issue is with people who throw out the "respect the office" line. More often than not, those same people, just eight years ago, were making just as disparaging of remarks as the ones who are doing it today. That is just hypocrisy.

The real issue is the loss of civility. I believe this loss of civility can be correlated to the rise of the internet and social media. The rise of both have emboldened those who would have have the courage to say what they do about or to that person face to face. I say, a lot, that the courage and words of an individual tend to end at the keyboard.

So, here's the key take away; civility is desperately needed. Respect for the office regardless of the party occupying needs to return. Just because one has a freedom, does not mean that freedom should not be responsibly exercised. Dissent and disagreement can always be voiced and received in a respectful manner.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2015 3:10 AM

2015-02-06T03:10:21-05:00

Ignore rumors, look for facts. We are really better off without the handful of people prosecuted. It is only a handful.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2015 4:08 AM

2015-02-06T04:08:04-05:00

In uniform...no. UCMJ covers that. See Article 88, Contempt Towards Officials and Article 89, Disrespect To A Superior Commissioned Officer, being that in fact the Commander in Chief is a commissioned officer position. If you are serving in the military under any capacity the Manual for Courts Martial covers, then you fall under the UCMJ 24/7. There's no time off from the law.

I'm not the bad guy, I'm just the guy with the bad news.

Response by SPC Christopher Shanahan made Feb 6 at 2015 11:30 AM

2015-02-06T11:30:13-05:00

For uniformed personnel the answer is no. As a member of the military you have a responsibility to stand behind the commander in chief in all his decisions whether you agree with them or not. I may not personally agree with POTUS, but I keep those opinions to myself. As for civilians, I think it is their duty to question the commander in chief to keep him honest and to make sure he abides by the law.

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made May 11 at 2015 11:40 PM

2015-05-11T23:40:22-04:00

“Any person subject to this chapter who behaves with disrespect toward his superior commissioned officer shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Elements.

(1) That the accused did or omitted certain acts or used certain language to or concerning a certain commissioned officer;

(2) That such behavior or language was directed toward that officer;

(3) That the officer toward whom the acts, omissions, or words were directed was the superior commissioned officer of the accused;

(4) That the accused then knew that the commissioned officer toward whom the acts, omissions, or words were directed was the accused’s superior commissioned officer; and

(5) That, under the circumstances, the behavior or language was disrespectful to that commissioned officer.

Explanation.

(1) Superior commissioned officer.
•
(a) Accused and victim in same armed force. If the accused and the victim are in the same armed force, the victim is a “superior commissioned officer” of the accused when either superior in rank or command to the accused; however, the victim is not a “superior commissioned officer”of the accused if the victim is inferior in command, even though superior in rank.

(b) Accused and victim in different armed forces. If the accused and the victim are in different armed forces, the victim is a “superior commissioned officer” of the accused when the victim is a commissioned officer and superior in the chain of command over the accused or when the victim, not a medical officer or a chaplain, is senior in grade to the accused and both are detained by a hostile entity so that recourse to the normal chain of command is prevented. The victim is not a “superior commissioned officer” of the accused merely because the victim is superior in grade to the accused.

(c) Execution of office. It is not necessary that the “superior commissioned officer” be in the execution of office at the time of the disrespectful behavior.

(2) Knowledge. If the accused did not know that the person against whom the acts or words were directed was the accused’s superior commissioned officer, the accused may not be convicted of a violation of this article. Knowledge may be proved by circumstantial evidence.

(3) Disrespect. Disrespectful behavior is that which detracts from the respect due the authority and person of a superior commissioned officer. It may consist of acts or language, however expressed, and it is immaterial whether they refer to the superior as an officer or as a private individual. Disrespet by words may be conveyed by abusive epithets or other contemptuous or denunciatory language. Truth is no defense. Disrespect by acts includes neglecting the customary salute, or showing a marked disdain, indifference, insolence, impertinence, undue familiarity, or other rudeness in the presence of the superior officer.

(4) Presence. It is not essential that the disrespectful behavior be in the presence of the superior, but ordinarily one should not be held accountable under this article for what was said or done in a purely private conversation.

(5) Special defense—unprotected victim. A superior commissioned officer whose conduct in relation to the accused under all the circumstances departs substantially from the required standards appropriate to that officer’s rank or position under similar circumstances loses the protection of this article. That accused may not be convicted of being disrespectful to the officer who has so lost the entitlement to respect protected by Article 89.

Lesser included offenses.

(1) Article 117—provoking speeches or gestures

(2) Article 80—attempts

Maximum punishment.

Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.

Next Article> Article 90-Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 12 at 2015 12:14 AM

2015-05-12T00:14:46-04:00

There will be people who are so pro President Obama or just ignorant and uneducated that every comment made about the President would be considered disrespect. I prefer not to speak of the President in uniform around people I do not know.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 7:18 AM

2015-05-12T07:18:21-04:00

For commissioned officers at least, given that our commissions are granted in the name of the POTUS, I do not see how one can reasonably berate or otherwise be disrespectful towards the POTUS.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made May 12 at 2015 2:51 PM

2015-05-12T14:51:38-04:00

I don't see it a berating as much as just airing your frustrations. No matter who is our Commander in Chief were not always going to like the decisions made.
I think though that we need to be respectful of how we air our frustrations because surely we do not like anyone disrespecting us.
The military is the only job that requires our loyalty 24/7 no matter who is in charge and that puts us in unique situations because we are not free to speak out or march in protest against our leaders like our civilian counterparts do.

Response by SFC Clark Adams made May 13 at 2015 4:11 AM

2015-05-13T04:11:46-04:00

Text.

“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Elements.

(1) That the accused was a commissioned officer of the United States armed forces;

(2) That the accused used certain words against an official or legislature named in the article;

(3) That by an act of the accused these words came to the knowledge of a person other than the accused; and

(4) That the words used were contemptuous, either in themselves or by virtue of the circumstances under which they were used. Note: If the words were against a Governor or legislature, add the following element

(5) That the accused was then present in the State, Territory

Response by SSG Dale London made May 7 at 2016 7:19 AM

2016-05-07T07:19:55-04:00

Not as a serving soldier, no. Open condemnation of a superior officer is a violation of the UCMJ and punishable by court martial. And, while the President is not a commissioned officer in the military he is the Chief Executive Officer of the Federal Government.
By the way, this injunction also is in play for senators, congressmen and members of the cabinet, like SECDEF and SECARMY, etc.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Nov 3 at 2016 7:38 PM

2016-11-03T19:38:10-04:00

Ask Gen. McChristal...

Response by SSG Dale London made Nov 10 at 2016 12:37 PM

2016-11-10T12:37:20-05:00

You have an unalienable right to have an opinion. But when you put on the uniform of the US Military and swear the oath, your right to voice it is suspended until your service is over. Berating the President is insubordination -- or worse -- and you could be liable to action under the UCMJ.