Is it possible to take UCMJ action against an officer for disrespecting an NCO?

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Dec 2016 08:30:01 -0500

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Dec 24 at 2016 9:00 AM

CPT Mark Gonzalez — Sat, 24 Dec 2016 09:00:42 -0500

Maybe conduct unbecoming. It depends on the situation, but the supervisor of the officer has lots of tools to fix the behavior as well. We would like to think respect goes both ways, but the disrespect would have to be pretty extreme for it to actually be a ucmj issue. Use your nco support channel as I have seen officers removed for doing dumb things, especially LT's.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Dec 24 at 2016 9:54 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sat, 24 Dec 2016 09:54:15 -0500

As you stated it no, by reg the officer can not be charged with disrespecting an enlisted person...as least directly like an enlisted person could be.

Art 91 Insubordination only addresses "“Any warrant officer or enlisted member who" .
Officers can not be the actor in this article.

Art 133 - Conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman
“Any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman who is convicted of conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”
Elements.
(1) That the accused did or omitted to do certain acts; and
(2) That, under the circumstances, these acts or omissions constituted conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman.

That said,
my guess is, it would need to be public and completely unrelated to a actual or perceived "thing" the officer was correcting.

"Look SGT, I'll date your little sister anytime I want, shes 16, legal in this state and I only give her wine at the house, if you bring this up again, I'll stick you on motor pool guard for the next 10 weekends"

Otherwise, if the shenanigans were in response to a correction, even when done poorly, even in error, the senior officer that got wind of it would likely make the correction though counseling and negative reinforcement...lol

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2016 11:10 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Dec 2016 11:10:39 -0500

For that particular UCMJ action, no. Now, Conduct Unbecoming.....that's a different manner. But I caution you to use your Chain and have ALL your ducks/facts/statements/evidence lined up in a nice row. Good luck.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2016 3:11 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Dec 2016 15:11:54 -0500

Conduct Unbecoming (Article 133) or Cruelty and Maltreatment (Article 93) but I would use your Chain first, sometimes I'm still surprised at the effect a word from a 1SG or SGM/CSM has on Officers.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2016 5:03 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Dec 2016 17:03:41 -0500

I doubt it. But when I was a fire team leader in the mid 90s my company commander grabbed a platoon sergeant's LBE in a fit of anger. The CPT was tactically squared away, but short tempered. Bottom line, he laid hands on an NCO. The PLT SGT was a turd. But he came from division staff and knew everybody. There was an investigation. CO was relieved as was the 1SG for good measure. We were mostly glad top was gone because he was a dick. Worst company NCOIC I've had.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Dec 24 at 2016 10:20 PM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:20:02 -0500

One officer that was charged with conduct unbecoming an Officer while I was stationed at Hanscom AFB, MA for His response to being stopped by the Security Police. The Base Commander not only took action against that Officer, a Captain but also brought Him to the Security Police Station and made Him apologize in front of everybody and told the Captain, "We don't want people like You in the Air Force, You are a disgrace to Your uniform. You even so much as sneeze I'll rip Your Captains bars off ! I'm also giving You a direct order, next time You talk to a Security Policeman , You will address Him as Sir, they are all superior to You. I'm sure that Captain felt about 2 feet tall at that point. The Base Commander also said, "You made a spectacle of a Security Policeman in front of everyone, how does it feel to have it happen to You ? You also better understand the Security Police represent Me, and carry out My orders, You show disrespect to them that is disrespect to Me ! Last problem we ever had with that Captain.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2016 4:34 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Dec 2016 16:34:53 -0500

It'd have to be pretty serious before anything would come of it. Others with a lot more rank and experience than I have have already spoken to that.
The next point is for what? Wounded pride? I've had a few NCOs and one officer I'd like to have seen publicly humiliated for what I suffered (real or imagined) at their hands. However, unlike when a subordinate disrespects a superior, the discipline of the organization isn't affected when a superior disrespects a subordinate. Life isn't fair, but that's the way it is.

My recommendation is that if you have a situation you feel needs to be remedied, ask a couple peers about it, and if they agree that you/others have been/are being wronged, push it up the chain. If they tell you to get thicker skin, grow some leather. If you get nowhere through the chain, command climate surveys do get read.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I've had a great experience, and so far, the soldiers, airmen, officers, and NCOs I've served with have overwhelmingly been great. Don't want my post to sound like leaders suck.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2016 7:38 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Dec 2016 19:38:38 -0500

That's a firm negative.

Response by Sgt Joshua Seavey made Dec 26 at 2016 2:54 AM

Sgt Joshua Seavey — Mon, 26 Dec 2016 02:54:38 -0500

Not disrespect only, no. But hazing, conduct unbecoming a Marine, or something related to the wrong doing.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Dec 26 at 2016 9:28 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Mon, 26 Dec 2016 09:28:30 -0500

Only if you want to be subjected to unsolicited ridicule and torment.

Response by PO2 Robert Moore made Dec 27 at 2016 7:37 AM

PO2 Robert Moore — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 07:37:06 -0500

depends.......with or in conjunction with lawful orders? Or......a personal unwarranted attack in front of the NCO's men/women? The latter has a better chance of some action. UCMJ? Doubtful. Chain of Command......more likely.

Response by CPO Donald Crisp made Dec 27 at 2016 8:42 AM

CPO Donald Crisp — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 08:42:59 -0500

That is a pretty vague question without any real explanation. I'm of the old Guard, so my views are a little more "did the job get done and was it safe, legal and did it work?". IF an officer belittles someone in front of his peers and subordinates, (if that's what your experiencing) that isn't something that you can take legal action using the UCMJ, it just shows that the officer has little to no understanding of leadership and management.

IF it is a persistent issue, you can take it up with your CSM for advice and further action. I now things are different now and in the seagoing services, but the same general COC actions need to be taken. Just arbitrarily attempting to take action against an officer could land you in some pretty hot water. So you need to ask yourself if:
1. Can I handle this on my own (do I have the leadership and management skills to teach the O. Remember, junior officers do need training and guidance from NCO's in the field. They think they may know everything, but it's like trying to raise a teenager, they'll need guidance.

2. What actions do you expect to be taken. If it isn't taken, what will you do then? As sad as it sounds, you may become a target for retaliation. It's not supposed to happen, but it does, BELIEVE me.

3. Is it worth the effort? I'm a firm believer of picking your battles and if you are a strong leader, you need to ensure that you maintain (at all times) proper respect and decorum. Your peers and subordinates should never see you bad mouthing the officer in public. If you and your peers want to discuss the issue and brainstorm to find an answer, do it in private. If not, it WILL come back to bite you in the butt.

Just an old sailors advice.

Response by CPO David Sharp made Dec 27 at 2016 9:11 AM

CPO David Sharp — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 09:11:41 -0500

Navy Regs 1.11(?) specifically states that any superior who is found to be abusive to a subordinate is subject to charges. Basically, yes, there is also a condition up and down the chain for respect.

Response by GySgt Joseph Jay Johnston made Dec 27 at 2016 9:20 AM

GySgt Joseph Jay Johnston — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 09:20:00 -0500

No,dont even think about it...

Response by SGT Arno Paul Schumann made Dec 27 at 2016 11:04 AM

SGT Arno Paul Schumann — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 11:04:31 -0500

Without physical contact - 99% of the time - No.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2016 12:48 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 12:48:28 -0500

You can file a grievance, GI, or Captain Mast. Make sure to have substantial evidence. Good luck.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2016 8:54 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 20:54:06 -0500

There is a offense called provoking speech and gestures. Since your original question was vague I'm not sure how disrespectful the situation was. There's also conduct unbecoming and a few other offenses you could look at. Again, it depends on the extent of what of what was said or done. For the most part officer vs enlisted is a non issue especially in today's PC military world. If it was sexual in nature you could also look at sexual harassment. Hope this helps at least a little.

Response by SSgt James Connolly made Dec 27 at 2016 9:17 PM

SSgt James Connolly — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 21:17:44 -0500

My self I would look around and try to see once I light the fire whats around after it boils and spills over,you just might like to CYAP cover your ass with paperwork.Try and see what might happen to self if things go the wrong way,if they are Acadamy boys then they have their Protective Association covering his ass what have you got.I don't believe it goes what they going to do to me cut my hair and send me back to Nam.If your career type look at your future hard before doing anything,remember you may prove something but it does not go to bed it follows you in your duties where ever you go

Response by PO2 Paul W. made Dec 27 at 2016 10:10 PM

PO2 Paul W. — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 22:10:27 -0500

I was fortunate to work for a LCDR, USN NC at my first post after Corps School. Others in the dept told me she would see me through ANY NJP or court marshal hearing...if I was RIGHT! They also assured me she would be first to hand me my a$$ if I was wrong!
One night I had a Pentagon based 4 stripe walk in & ask for cold medication. Of course it was a night we had all exam/treatment rooms full with serious trauma & we were short staffed. I told the capt he would have to wait. He became irate and demanded to be seen immediately. I calmly described each trauma in each room and asked which he would like emptied to be seen. He then sarcastically demanded I attend to him where we stood. I reminded him that since he was presenting as a patient, he was subordinate to me. He blew up and told me to expect a "write up" for insubordination. The next day I related (with great fear) to my LCDR what had happened. She immediately went to the Hospital CO (one star ADM) The next day, she came to me and told me the paper work had come through but not to worry and wait for a call to see the CO. Two days later, I was called. The LCDR & I went to the CO's office. I waited in the outer office, the LCDR went into the CO's. Five minutes later, she came out and told me the paperwork was "lost" in the round file.
I relate this only to explain that the right WILL prevail if given a chance!

Response by PO1 Michael Adams made Sep 29 at 2017 4:28 PM

PO1 Michael Adams — Fri, 29 Sep 2017 16:28:05 -0400

Yes. I had filed charges, back in the day, lol, on an Officer for conduct unbecoming and conveying a verbal threat. At the time, I was an E-4. I could not submit the report chit myself but had to have an Officer of equal or higher rank submit it. It happened and within hours, had the Officer on his knees begging for forgiveness. Brought his swollen ego down a few hundred notches before I told the Executive Officer of my command to drop the chit. Them Zero's are not above anyone else just because of what's on their collar/shoulder. I had to respect the Uniform, not the prick that occupied it.

Response by MSgt Alfred Cole made Nov 30 at 2017 11:08 PM

MSgt Alfred Cole — Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:08:53 -0500

Did you not go to boot camp? This is basic stuff.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2017 8:23 AM

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 08:23:42 -0500

In all honesty, I do not thing there is a specific article in the UCMJ that gives and NCO the authority to take an Officer to to mast. But conduct unbecoming or the General article (134) could apply in some instances based on the actions of the officer. For example, an officer decides to send racial slurs or other slurs towards an NCO (or any military member for that matter) would be subject to conduct unbecoming, departure from rank, CMEO, and an whole slue of other charges.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2018 8:07 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 20:07:30 -0500

UCMJ, likely not. But a counseling from the command is possible.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Mar 8 at 2018 10:58 PM

MSG John Duchesneau — Thu, 08 Mar 2018 22:58:08 -0500

You would do better to inform the Battalion CSM and let him take it up the Battalion CO. The Battalion CO will deal with it. Karmic justice works just as well as formal justice.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 9 at 2018 1:17 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 09 Mar 2018 13:17:24 -0500

Possible- be easier for the NCO in question to talk with a much senior NCO to counsel the LT, or see the CO on the Open Door policy.

Response by SGT Randall Smith made Mar 10 at 2018 4:30 PM

SGT Randall Smith — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 16:30:36 -0500

I guess things are changing in the military beyond what I can comprehend. I had a Cpt. in Germany
who was an ass. But I served under 8 different officers and the rest were really good people and officers who did not mind helping if needed. We had a Bn Co and XO who had a true open door policy if the CSM thought they should hear you. And the CSM took care of the troops. In Nam we had a Cpt. who was our CO. He always had your back and took care of us. The only real problem was he would come into the NCO hooch 2 or 3 in the morning and wake everyone up to have some one to drink with. He would have a trash barrel full of beer and we had to drink with him.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Mar 10 at 2018 4:41 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 16:41:30 -0500

Request a transfer a for a reason cite the Officer, tell them you should not have to be humiliated by this unprofessional turd. That has worked for me in the past.
(my advice is worth every penny you paid for it

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2018 9:54 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Dec 2018 09:54:24 -0500

There is no such thing.
If it was based on a correction, the NCO should get their s*!t together so no corrections are necessary.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2019 11:23 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Oct 2019 23:23:44 -0400

Happened to me. I ended up going through all the NCO-support channels by myself. Feels horrible that nobody stood up for me. They just watched it happen. For a bunch of dick suckers, they sure have no balls.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Mar 3 at 2021 8:12 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Wed, 03 Mar 2021 20:12:51 -0500

Is that a hill you want to die on?