Is it time for the Military to allow such things as haircuts, hands in pockets, and beards?

2016-05-12T17:04:32-04:00

Look at the role models each Branch Loves, Marines: in some pictures had his hands in his pockets, and no haircut, Chesty Puller, and General Patton, had his hands in his pockets and no haircut as well, SF wears beards over Seas and have their hands in their pockets. Does it really detract from performance? Is it really a Disipline problem? Could it increase unit Morale?

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made May 12 at 2016 5:06 PM

2016-05-12T17:06:51-04:00

I don't believe any of that mattered then! It was all about the MISSION!

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 5:07 PM

2016-05-12T17:07:12-04:00

As hard as I try, I'm still guilty of the hands in the pocket violation from time to time.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 5:08 PM

2016-05-12T17:08:22-04:00

Can't compare SF with the rest of the operational Army.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 5:10 PM

2016-05-12T17:10:05-04:00

Shaving and other uniform standards are in place for uniformity and good order and discipline.

Response by SFC Wade W. made May 12 at 2016 5:10 PM

2016-05-12T17:10:39-04:00

No changes need to be made. Where are all these questions coming from? The beards is simple. In the Middle East it is for a cultural issue, that is all. SF has always had beards because they are SF, you aren't. A protective mask cannot seal over a beard and a private has bad hygeine to begin with, shave! Hands in pockets, no. You can't stand at parade rest with your hands in your pockets. When you have stars for rank you can do whatever you want. Haircuts, hygeine. Anything else?

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 5:14 PM

2016-05-12T17:14:24-04:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member It is about discipline. Having long hair, beards and hands in pockets will not increase morale. When you are out in the bush, where you can not get a haircut, shave, etc, different rules apply. It is not time (at least for the Marine Corps), to allow these things when in garrison.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 5:19 PM

2016-05-12T17:19:28-04:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member, great question for debate. I think you already know where I stand, but great question.

Response by CPL Byron Williams made May 12 at 2016 11:33 PM

2016-05-12T23:33:55-04:00

Im all about discpline. When i was told there was 500 SMG on BIAP. Dont forget the pt belt.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 12:33 AM

2016-05-13T00:33:35-04:00

I can see some leniency withthe Chesty Puller pic, he is in the field afterall. Although even in his official photos he probably couldnt pass an Alphas inspection today. IMO that is because we spend too much time focusing on the dog and pony show and not readiness. Chesty isnt the best Marine because he looked great in uniform, hes the best Marine ever bc he could fight and lead a unit better than anyone else

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made May 13 at 2016 12:33 AM

2016-05-13T00:33:43-04:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member When we were getting 2 haircuts a week while Korea wound down, we were told it was for reasons of sanitation!

Response by Capt Michael Greene made May 13 at 2016 12:44 AM

2016-05-13T00:44:11-04:00

On page one of the USAF squadron commander's handbook (long ago) it said "Be unreasonable." There's a very good reason for these things. A lot of things the military does are unreasonable--for a reason. The short hair, clean face, pressed uniform and shined shoes are unreasonable. Is there a real reason the working day begins at oh dark thirty? It's unreasonable. In my day, Marines were not allowed to carry an umbrella in the rain. So why is it like that?

Because in war, a lot of things very necessary to the mission will sound unreasonable, even to an experienced warrior. We must ensure that our people will not question every order they get. They need to be comfortable with doing unreasonable things.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 2:45 AM

2016-05-13T02:45:07-04:00

Haircuts no. Back to beards and hands in pockets, Yes.

Check out the Task and Purpose article on the Marines stance on no hands on the pockets. In summary, lack of understanding grammar aka they can't read.

Response by SGT David T. made May 13 at 2016 7:43 AM

2016-05-13T07:43:37-04:00

General Burnside approves!

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 7:50 AM

2016-05-13T07:50:20-04:00

I don't think it will create morale. I think that discipline needs to be in place. We are the country's military; we need to look presentable; we are ambassadors of our country when we are overseas or in port. Some sections of our branches do things differently yet it shouldn't reflect everyone else. I've seen so many males that have no-shave-chits that it blows my mind. I can understand for a few, but honestly sometimes I think they are just lazy and don't want to do it; just like with females letting their hair touch their collar and not put up or cut it. It creates laziness and it could stop progression through a mission or for a simple task.
For females: when you are in deck dept, do you really want to keep your hair down when you are painting the side of a ship or a p-way? How about catching your hair on fire from sparks from fixing the panels on the ship?
Males: Doesn't it itch more when you don't shave?

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 8:40 AM

2016-05-13T08:40:10-04:00

I think the NCO community "owns" this topic...but here's my take, for what its worth.

These heroes were a different breed. Puller's resume reads like a John Wayne flick-A guy like that is once in a century, maybe twice if we're lucky. The motivation and loyalty they transmit far outweighs their apparent lack of "bearing", and everyone knows you don't "impersonate" that kind of gravitas.

Then there's the SF folks. I recall once that we had a bunch of Group Three people show up, dirty, bearded, and looking like a heavily armed ZZ Top tribute band. An hour later, they came out of the hooches in PRISTINE and perfect ACUs, with reg cuts.

For the rest of we "mere mortals", a couple weeks out in the bush, and a lot of things naturally go by the board...but on a FOB, in garrison, or stateside, there's just no good reason to do away with good order and discipline.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made May 13 at 2016 8:47 AM

2016-05-13T08:47:31-04:00

Beards and a longer length of hair should be allowed as long as it remains somewhat conservative and well groomed. I never felt that hands in pockets was a big deal.

Response by SSgt Dan Montague made May 13 at 2016 10:12 AM

2016-05-13T10:12:53-04:00

I see this post a lot. I know service members are pushing for more relaxed grooming standards. But where does it stop? Next earrings in uniform for all hands. Ear gauges that are no more than 1/4 diameter? Lets bring back real old school regs. Wigs and pony tails. It can go on and on.
We are the US military. We stand out with pride in who we are and what we stand for. Uniformity also means discipline. Maybe the SNCO's who keep posting questions to relax standards should be enforcing them with their troops.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made May 13 at 2016 2:06 PM

2016-05-13T14:06:18-04:00

I don't think it matters if Chesty Puller, Patton or Audie Murphy roamed the battlefield with long hair and beards, they were courageous and still good examples and in WWII the Soldiers lived rough, on the line for extended periods with little hygienic facilities available.
Long hair is easier for lice and other critters to take up quarters so that's the real reason for the military preference for short hair.
Hands in Pockets; still can't put my finger on this one other than it makes you look like your at ease in the environment your in, and we all know its way better to look uptight and stiff at all times. But rules are rules. I still don't put my hands in my pockets .
Beards fell out of favor due to chemical weapons and masking seal issues. The SF with their Combat Beards came back in favor because the middle eastern culture prefers them and if your trying to fit in and gain trust it helps.
Increased moral; maybe until you get lice which sucks or gassed which also sucks really bad. Or you can't get your hand out of your pocket in time to catch a grenade or miss saluting someone or fall and bust your teeth out. All of which could suck at some level.
Discipline problem, depends on the situation and level of potential sucky-ness.
Chesty Puller was the original Chuck Norris he could'a worn Bermuda shorts Gucci sandals and and a Hawaiian print shirt and still reaped havoc on the enemy.

Response by LCpl Michael Harrell made May 13 at 2016 9:32 PM

2016-05-13T21:32:39-04:00

We strive to be the best military units as we can and our worriers are proud , not only in stature but in history and honor! I would not look at anyone but to see what they are doing
Think first if we start this then we look like every other joe blow army around the world. I believe it would erode good order and disaplin

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2016 12:36 AM

2016-05-14T00:36:30-04:00

Sure, why not. Regs are not enforced anyway. Let's do what we want.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made May 14 at 2016 9:48 AM

2016-05-14T09:48:31-04:00

Yes, all of the above detract from the military appearance. Why do SF and SEALs wear beards in Afghanistan? To adapt their appearance into the culture of the people they are trying to help. Everything that the military does, no matter how nonsensical it may appear, has a reason. If you will do a bit of research and thinking, you can answer a lot of questions yourself.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 12:14 AM

2016-05-15T00:14:32-04:00

Yes, definitely.

Response by SPC John Decker made May 15 at 2016 4:24 PM

2016-05-15T16:24:22-04:00

In my day, the hair length and facial hair (or lack thereof), had more to do with the gas mask fitting and sealing properly than anything else. And having your hands in your pockets had to do, I think, with being able to grab a weapon that much faster. And, again, in my opinion, a person in uniform, with hands in pockets, just looks lazy. That being said, history tells us that some of the rules are enforced, or not, differently in a combat environment.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 4:44 PM

2016-05-15T16:44:09-04:00

Oh no we must have the groomig standard. Otherwise, we'd be forced to evaluate Soldiers solely on their level of competence. God forbid that ever happens.

Response by PO3 Chris Wright, MBA made May 15 at 2016 4:50 PM

2016-05-15T16:50:18-04:00

I can only speak for the Navy; if you are underway on a ship I think you should be allowed to grow a beard but as soon as you pull into port you should shave. And as far as SF, seals, ect. being allowed to grow beards, look at the training they have been through and the missions they do. I think the only seal team that gets to bend the rules is Seal team 6. Most of the other seal team members are clean shaven.

Response by Sgt Windell Clark made May 15 at 2016 5:15 PM

2016-05-15T17:15:17-04:00

No barber in the field. Pockets? Go lock on one of those salty bastards and correct them - you better stand by.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 6:03 PM

2016-05-15T18:03:08-04:00

It has been allowed for a very long time. Long hair, hands in pockets, and beards - I have many pictures of me in uniform with it. Allowed for special circumstances.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 6:08 PM

2016-05-15T18:08:36-04:00

My Lord, there really is no comparison between field duty (especially WW II!) and garrison discipline. Standards have to be maintained in garrison to maintain and enforce basic military discipline. I wouldn't want to be in an Army that couldn't even get that straight.

Response by SSG Vik Polivka made May 15 at 2016 7:26 PM

2016-05-15T19:26:19-04:00

I loved not shaving "due to diving in contaminated water". Bring on the beards!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 7:32 PM

2016-05-15T19:32:44-04:00

When I was a SPC, I walked in to the office area where 3 warrant officers worked. I put my hands in my pocket and walked from desk to desk to make sure they could all see me. One raised his head and turned to me "SPC Shim, What are you doing with your hands in your pockets". I replied "Practicing to be a Warrant Officer". And then I did a bunch of pushups.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made May 15 at 2016 9:11 PM

2016-05-15T21:11:52-04:00

They already do allow long hair and beards...if you are in the right race and religion. What is good for one should be good for all.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made May 16 at 2016 12:48 AM

2016-05-16T00:48:15-04:00

Beards and haircuts are hygiene issues and should remain as is. Hands in your pockets? Unless you are inserting or retrieving something or playing pocket pool there's no need for your hands to be there.

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made May 16 at 2016 2:18 AM

2016-05-16T02:18:29-04:00

Impossible to compare individuals from times past to now. So if a guy shows up with a powdered wig and saber because George Washington did it, do we say aye? I can't speak on SF because it's an operational thing (although a guy with flowing golden tresses and the beard of Thor doesn't blend in well with the locals), SF does what SF does, a haircut and no hands in the pockets are minor disciplines that lead to larger things. Not sure why you can't do something as simple as keeping your hair in regs or keeping your hands out of your pockets or how it drives morale down... The beards are already here. Seems like everyone has a shaving waiver and I mean everybody now or dudes just refuse to shave and no one questions. I see 6-7 inches of hair greased back and over, afros, goatees (I assure you shaving chits don't say shave your mug smooth except for a blocked of patch on your chin). I watched a guy cut across the grass to the barracks with one hand in and the other helping him gulp down a drink. I see this across the board thanks to working on a joint service installation. There's nothing demoralizing about being the conservative and disciplined portion of society. If guys want hair, beards and built in hand warmers, become a civilian. You can have all of that then.

Response by SPC Sheryl Koch made May 16 at 2016 2:55 AM

2016-05-16T02:55:44-04:00

As a 74D the regs are clear NO!

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made May 16 at 2016 3:48 AM

2016-05-16T03:48:44-04:00

Appearance is one thing. I really dont care about beards. I get the arguments about a gas mask getting a better seal on shaved skin...but that falls under individual decision. However Im calling BS on the need for others to call BS on hands in pockets simply becaause there is no good argument for keeping hands in the pockets...and some of you are only bothering about such petty things out of laziness. Next you'll be questioning having to stand using only your legs and not leaning sloppily on walls. If you are that lazy...or out of shape...then Id question just exactly who the hell are you "serving" aside from yourself, and these things scream "Im an Entitlement Society product who only ever went to a Boot Camp to find the safest and least deployable job so I can leech some college money and healthcare for myself, and have no concern for anything greater than self...and I represent the answer to the real question about NOT why our enemies hate us, but why they no longer fear us." (which in some cases could also argue for not even having the IQ to bother with college).

Semper Fi.

Response by SGT George Crowder made May 16 at 2016 9:25 AM

2016-05-16T09:25:42-04:00

If you achieve what Lt General Puller or 5 star General Patton achieved then I am sure no one will begrudge you a hair cut or hands in pocket. These outstanding examples certainly set the standard when it comes to bravery, tactics and leadership. I would not presume that because these men could bend certain rules then everyone should. I would say they earned it, while so many of us did not.

(Sidebar if you look at later pictures of these men in garrison I would say they look up to snuff to me!)

Response by Sgt Jamie Grippin made May 16 at 2016 10:02 AM

2016-05-16T10:02:37-04:00

You're in the military, if you want to walk around looking unkept and with your hands in your pocket go be a civilian. This ranks up there with those two individuals who want to be in the US military and maintain a beard and wear turban. Just find another profession and leave this profession to the professionals.

Response by Cpl Ray Frigerio made May 16 at 2016 10:14 AM

2016-05-16T10:14:06-04:00

Pretty sure facial hair didn't interfere with their abilities as soldiers....

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made May 16 at 2016 10:21 AM

2016-05-16T10:21:09-04:00

Not enough bandwidth to resolve all the social woes and attack the silly little things that do nothing but make for a better morale in the military.

Response by Sgt Tom Cunnally made May 16 at 2016 12:53 PM

2016-05-16T12:53:11-04:00

We still had to shave every day out in the field and our Corpsman gave us all buzz cuts which were easier to keep clean than longer hair. "Hands in our pockets" was not allowed ..But that was back in the "Ole Corps" when "Field Exercise" were a way of life & that was not too bad except living on CRats was the pits....

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 1:38 PM

2016-05-16T13:38:25-04:00

Yes it is necessary. These are not things the military does to instill discipline. Discipline is the by-product of enforcement. These things create and image. An image of tradition and correctness. This is necessary to preserve what the image of a Soldier should be. SF maintains relaxed grooming standards to achieve cultural immersion.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 3:50 PM

2016-05-16T15:50:10-04:00

There is a huge misconception about the SF community and the presence of facial hair. Those relaxed grooming standards are about the cultural values of our indigenous partner forces. Special forces are allowed to have facial hair as it appeals to the cultural norms of our host nation allies. In garrison, our regular place of business, we need to maintain a professional appearance. It's also about the cultural norms and values of the people paying our salaries. They expect a professional looking military.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 6:42 PM

2016-05-16T18:42:13-04:00

SF does a lot of things you will never be aloud or able to do so get over it and follow the regs

Response by PO3 Frank Opalecky made May 16 at 2016 9:28 PM

2016-05-16T21:28:21-04:00

Wow just wow. NO. When you hire in at a private company or Enlist in the military, you are agreeing to follow the existing rules. Pot stirrers need not apply.

Response by SGT David Emme made May 16 at 2016 11:48 PM

2016-05-16T23:48:00-04:00

As i see it, the dirty is in the details. If you are disciplined to follow the details in garrison you will follow the details needed in the field or combat. It is a whole mindset to pay attention to detail. The details in combat or in the field are not the same details followed in garrison but the discipline is the same.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 2:41 AM

2016-05-17T02:41:40-04:00

I don't think it's right for people to attack you for asking this question. Isn't that what Rally Point is for? For brothers and sisters in arms to come together and comment on different ideas. It's crazy, some are calling your professionalism into question for asking a question.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 9:25 AM

2016-05-17T09:25:34-04:00

sure why not? Everyone gets an exception for something these days, beards, turbans etc etc...why bother even having standards?

Response by SGM Frederic Smith made May 17 at 2016 11:53 AM

2016-05-17T11:53:38-04:00

NO! But, what is done in a Combat environment is NOT the same as in Garrison! IF that is the question being asked in Garrison, then we are in a more serious downward trend as first believed.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2016 4:34 PM

2016-06-27T16:34:43-04:00

Hands in pockets, I can see. Most of us do it anyway. But beards? No. Simply because it DOES look more professional to be clean-shaven or at the very least, neatly groomed with limited facial hair (mustache).

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Jun 29 at 2016 1:46 PM

2016-06-29T13:46:49-04:00

Just to add to the discussion by demonstrating how allowing troops to put their hands in their pockets can have an adverse effect on discipline and duty performance, I share this picture of then-MAJ Charles Kettles, taken about the same time that he earned the Medal of Honor he will be presented with sometime real soon (for repeatedly trying to destroy government property by not only leading a flight of 6 Hueys to evac the wounded from a surrounded unit, but also flying back in without a crew to fetch 8 soldiers who had been left behind).

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Jun 29 at 2016 2:35 PM

2016-06-29T14:35:28-04:00

I have seen at least one photo of Ike with his hand in pockets. Can offer no explanation why these great leaders are shown like this. Can see how it would be hard to get a haircut or regular shave in the field but it sure is a lot more sanitary if one can do so.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2017 5:46 PM

2017-02-07T17:46:17-05:00

Are hands in fleece pockets justified when its cold and you were never issued gloves?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2017 7:17 AM

2017-02-09T07:17:29-05:00

They should have changed those rules its a new military

Response by Edward Belliveau made Mar 11 at 2017 5:04 PM

2017-03-11T17:04:25-05:00

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made Dec 3 at 2017 6:30 PM

2017-12-03T18:30:04-05:00

These are things that have outlived their purpose but since that is just how things have been traditionally it is almost a sacrilage to question them. For instance, trimmed beards were allowed until WWI when gas masks needed bare skin for a seal, then all those soldiers proudly went home which made shaving the fasion of the 20th century. When everyone forgot the reason for the the rule reasons are invented.
The IDF allows beards, doesn't know D&C, has been using the same uniform for 60+ years, enforces universal conscription, but yet has consistant obliterated all opposing forces even when surounded and outnumbered 12 to 1. I say this because it would appear that the social conventions you've mentioned never had any effect on the IDF's performance.

Response by PO1 Paul Dormont made Jul 16 at 2018 12:22 AM

2018-07-16T00:22:02-04:00

Really, SSG? You have the audacity to use the leaders of 70 years ago as an example for today's troops? Maybe a little more time with the S-3 would bring you up-to-date.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 15 at 2019 12:17 PM

2019-07-15T12:17:15-04:00

Not being allowed to put your hands in your pockets is the most ridiculous outdated rule there is. When we were privates we were told it was “unprofessional” which is far from true. I have personally seen the SMA with his hands in his pockets. If you don’t have gloves with you and it’s cold outside, put your hands in your pockets. It’s pretty stupid not to.