Is standing for equality consistent with opposing open immigration?

2014-11-08T20:50:04-05:00

In 1776, in a fraction of one sentence written into the Declaration of Independence was stated the real American Revolution, the new idea, and it was this: “that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.” That was it. This is the essence of Americanism. This is the rock upon which the whole “American miracle” was founded.

If this is what our country was founded on...so why are we resisting immigration and amnesty? These are people that want a better life...and come to America to get it. Have we forgot what it means to be an American...or has Americanism taken a new meaning: excluding anyone that is not American? What about, "give us your hungry, give us your poor"? We were all immigrants (except Natives) and our Southern border Mexicans are more native than we will ever be. (We, as in Caucasians) This topic will probably strike a nerve for many folks...but it is up for discussion, and I'm curious to see how you all feel about immigration, and amnesty?

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2014 8:53 PM

2014-11-08T20:53:46-05:00

Absolutely, SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member. My grandfather and grandmother came here from Poland, but they did not sneak over the border illegally. They entered the country legally and went through the process of gaining citizenship. That's the difference, and it's a big one, in my opinion.

I interpret amnesty to mean this: You entered our country illegally and broke the law. You've continued to break the law for as long as you've been here. Now we're going to give you amnesty and forgive all those illegal acts. You can remain here and be a U.S. citizen. I know it's not that cut and dried or that simple, but do you see the message that amnesty sends?

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Nov 8 at 2014 9:15 PM

2014-11-08T21:15:19-05:00

I don't think the general public is 'resisting immigration', I do 'resist' amnesty. My family immigrated from Ireland, so obviously, I am very pro-immigration. What I am not though, is allowing people to get a 'free pass'. There is a system in place, if you don't like that system, change it. Don't skirt around it by allowing people that break our laws to bypass that system that is in place. I think that the conversation that isn't being talked about is the economic ramifications of turning over 11 million illegal aliens into citizens at one time. From the increased funding issues of welfare, to the many business who (illegally) employ illegal aliens would now have to pay them minimum wage. Maybe we should start by prosecuting those employers who hire the illegal aliens. I think that this issue of immediate amnesty to all would create a huge economic burden, which is why there is a system in place to control this issue. Sure, I think that system could be run better, but amnesty is not the way to 'fix it'.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Nov 8 at 2014 9:31 PM

2014-11-08T21:31:58-05:00

Your "American Miracle" is something that the United States has been trying to achieve since it's founding. Unfortunately xenophobia is part of our genetic heritage. It takes a strength of will and conviction to look at someone who does not resemble the person on the magazine or in the mirror and accept them without reservation.
Do we really need lizard men and little green men from mars for us to accept the totality of the human race in all its diversity, as our brothers and sisters?
I see the resistance to the global community as pockets of people begin to feel a sense of disenfranchisement. Even as we open up communications that allow us to talk to people on the other side of the world with only milliseconds in delay, we pull into our shells seeking isolation.
It's even harder, when as a nation, we see our brothers and sisters struggling to find work, seeking charity to support their families, while we share our wealth with the world lifting communities in Africa, Central and South America, and Asia out of a poverty much deeper than our own.

I do believe that the greatest failing as a nation right now is our lack of character. When did we lose our grace and compassion to let greed rule the day to the exclusion of justice?

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Nov 9 at 2014 3:18 AM

2014-11-09T03:18:57-05:00

You know, I think the U.S. Government cares more about undocumented immigrants than Veterans. On the subject, though, document the criminal undocumented immigrants and send them back. For the rest of the undocumented immigrants, they can earn their way to staying in this great nation, and learn to speak English.

Response by PO1 Steven Kuhn made Nov 9 at 2014 6:31 AM

2014-11-09T06:31:38-05:00

The only problem with your excellent train of thought is that we have laws regarding immigration. My wife became an American citizen the legal way. If immigrants show no respect for our laws at the very start, what makes you think they will respect any other laws? Also, our economy cannot support the people we have. Illegal immigrants strain our weak systems. Also this whole amnesty thing is a ploy by one political party to make future members out of these illegal immigrants in the interest of future votes. Lastly, look at all the drugs, cartel members, and radical Islamic members who have snuck in. Our unsecured border is an intentional attack designed to weaken the country we love!

R/

Steve

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 4:37 PM

2014-11-09T16:37:31-05:00

Immigration is fully supported by the laws of this country. But I think what you are talking about is illegal immigration. And no I do not agree with illegal immigration, it has nothing to do with the Declaration of Independence or what is written at Ellis Island. It has to do with the law and the proper, responsible way to do something. There are a lot of people in other countries that have done the paperwork and are waiting there place in line to come to America, then there are some folks that are close enough to just cheat the system, what do you think is right there?

How about all the people the illegally immigrate to the US ever year just band together and fix whatever problems they are running away from in their country of origin. And there are plenty of non-cauasians that think the way "immigrate" is being done on our southern boarder is a problem.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 4:48 PM

2014-11-09T16:48:33-05:00

I am one that is not for amnesty. Yes may illegal immigrants want a better life. But it should be achieved by legal channels. Ask yourself why legal immigrants chose not to be naturalized. So why wave the magical wand for amnesty. Also over half of the illegals are here on expired visas so the southern border is not the only problem.

In 2011, about two-thirds of the more than 5 million legal Mexican immigrants eligible for citizenship had not yet naturalized, according to a new study by the Pew Hispanic Center.

http://www.governing.com/blogs/view/gov-all-immigrants-try-to-become-citizens-not-exactly.html

Pew Study: Not All Immigrants Want Citizenship

A new study examines why some eligible immigrants choose not to seek naturalization. For some, it's because they don't want to be U.S. citizens.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 4:52 PM

2014-11-09T16:52:18-05:00

No they are not consistent with one another. How can you stand for the equal rights of all but deny free movement of personnel into the country? Now, I can understand denying illegal immigration, if that is what you are referring to.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Nov 9 at 2014 4:55 PM

2014-11-09T16:55:18-05:00

Good question SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member. IMHO equality for all, is implied, to apply to people in this country legally. 1776 was a different time and I'm sure our Founding Fathers weren't considering INS as a federal department at that time as there was no definition of a US citizen or visitor visa's etc.

Once the definition of legal immigration was defined, those deciding to enter the country illegally knew exactly what they were doing. To simply give amnesty to these folks for breaking the law - can't say I'm a fan. The financial burden alone on welfare, the fact that many send money offshore to families back home - we can't handle what we have now. If you want equality for all then send all the illegals home and let them apply legally to come here. The loopholes also have to go like illegal immigrants giving birth on US soil makes the children US citizens.

How many other countries have these type of immigration problems? Many won't even grant citizenship to foreigners.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 6:40 PM

2014-11-09T18:40:17-05:00

I'm resistant to illegal immigration; yes, we're a country built on immigrants. But because of what we stand for, freedom, equality, it was taken as a come one-come all type scenerio. Now we have measures in place that allow people to come here legally, yet people take advantage and come here illegally. I understand its costly in some situations, but honestly; we have enough of our own poor, sick, and downtrodden, so why do we want everyone elses? We have a hard enough time providing jobs, services, and food for our own, what makes you think we can provide for you as well if you don't become a useful member of society? Immigration's a rough topic, but I welcome everyone with open arms, but if your here illegally your a drain on our resources, you don't pay taxes, and you take jobs away from tax payers.

Response by Sgt Nick Marshall made Nov 9 at 2014 7:58 PM

2014-11-09T19:58:17-05:00

My parents are immigrants from England, truly an anomaly. I wanted to join the Royal Marines, but to do so I would lose my American nationality, yet we accept non-Americans without question, a bit of a dichotomy

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 9:25 PM

2014-11-09T21:25:44-05:00

I we allow open immigration, and mass amnesty, how is that equal treatment to the people who played by the rules and followed the legal path to immigration?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2014 9:39 PM

2014-11-09T21:39:37-05:00

I'm all for immigration. Lawful, immigration. All of the instances that you cite are lawful immigration(or lawful at the time). Yes, the means for lawful immigration into our country is long, arduous, and a nightmare at times, but that does not mean that people can just do whatever they want. My ancestors and likely your ancestors had to enter the country legally. The real question is legal vs. illegal immigration.

If we're going to talk about government infringement upon life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, I hardly think that illegal immigration is the place to start. In fact, I think it's way down on the list of infringements.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Nov 10 at 2014 10:12 AM

2014-11-10T10:12:57-05:00

First off, this is a loaded comment to even address, SSGT LoGiudice, but I'm going to give it a shot here.
Nearly all of us in this country, come from Immigrants, so I wouldn't say we are anti-immigrant in the least. What we are, is "ANTI-ILLEGAL" immigrant.
I am Cherokee/Norweigan/Scots/French/Irish/Spanish/Black/Dutch/Welsh/English/Shawnee-American. I am a Heinz-57 mix, just like the rest of America, and I'm proud of each and every one of those amazing people who crossed oceans to attempt a better life for their children. Mission accomplished, and thank you to every one of those brave souls.

That said, I am also a Texan, born and raised. I probably see and hear things a lot different than they do in DC. I see the 'children' that have crossed the border... most are over the age of 15, with gang tattos, and they casually speak about what guns they prefer, how many they have robbed, injured and shot during their time with the gangs, and yes, most did not come here willingly, they were SENT here by their gangs or cartels to open up things on this end for those gangs and cartels. Mind you... those are the ones you don't hear about... unless you know a border agent or two.
I am all for immigration. I am against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. How can we expect people to enter this country and follow our laws, when by their first act, they are breaking those laws?
The statistics are, that each and every day, 25 Americans are killed by illegal immigrants. TWENTY FIVE! Murder, robbery, drunken driving, you name it, they do it, we arrest them, and send them back, and they come right back like an evil YoYo, that our legal system is not allowed to handle in the way they need to. Its an insane game of "Catch and Release" that is being played all along the Texas border. Google the facts, SSGT. Find out how many officers of the law die at the hands of illegals. Find out how many are fourth and fifth time offenders that have been deported many times, yet they just keep coming back, because we have no secure border.
These views, do not make me a racist, because what is coming over the border these days, is not all South American. Its Chinese, Eastern European, Middle Eastern, and all points in between. Check those facts out, sir, and find out how many Korans and prayer rugs have been found along the Texas border, and then tell me again how wanting a secure border, and a stop to the ILLEGAL crossing of same, could possibly make me look as if I am against Equality or be viewed as a racist, when I'm related in some way to every one on the globe?
No, SSGT LoGiudice, I am not against immigration. I am against every bad person in the world being able to walk thru our border, and being ignored while doing it. There is only one way to go forward with Immigration, and that is to close the border FIRST... then we can talk.

Response by PO1 Steven Kuhn made Nov 11 at 2014 2:34 PM

2014-11-11T14:34:23-05:00

All men are created equal and have the right to the pursuit of happiness, but not at the expense of violating our laws or becoming a burden on the taxpayers of the United States of America. If we can violate laws to ensure our own personal happiness, what is to stop us from rape, theft, and murder to obtain things that do not belong to us? I believe that America has been enriched by the influx of immigrants who want to assimilate themselves into the culture of our great nation, but not if they want to change it into a semblance of the tyranny and oppression they left. In becoming legal citizens and entering our country following our laws they take an oath forsaking the country they left behind in support of the one they are coming to. If they build on a foundation of breaking our laws, I see it as only getting worse. There are two reasons that our border is unsecure and allowing millions of illegal immigrants across our border. One is to weaken America from within by straining a welfare and medical support system that is already falling apart. Also, many dangerous and radical Muslims and Mexican drug runners are being accompanied across our border by the Mexican army. That is an act of war, yet our C-I-C has done nothing to stem the influx of illegal aliens. It is hard enough for people to get a job, and many have stopped trying. Secondly, and more to the point, these illegal aliens who are granted citizenship (while others have been legally waiting for years) are going to be indebted to the political party that facilitated their entry and their ability to get care and benefits. Democrats. So, this is more of a far-sighted plan (especially in lieu of recent elections) to guarantee the supremacy of the Democratic political party also. Only in America will the government take money from those who work hard every day of their lives and give it to those who do not want to. Many immigrants coming over want to work. All of them will be given money and aid we cannot afford to give in the hopes of future votes.

r/

Steve

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Nov 12 at 2014 8:05 AM

2014-11-12T08:05:51-05:00

I think that the difference in opinions stem from the difference between "legal immigration" and "illegal immigration".

Our country has always welcomed immigrants who do so in accordance with the laws of our country. I certainly think that is still the case. We should not allow people to enter our country in any manner contrary to our laws. Those who do are criminals, plain and simple,

Amnesty, in essence, rewards those who broke the law, which simply encourages others to do so, as well. It is really no difference than looking the other way and "forgiving" people who have broken other laws and giving them "do over".

The practical matter, however, is that we have millions of illegal immigrants in our country. There is no real way to identify, round up, and deport all of them. Plus, without securing the borders, they will simply come back, along with many more, as is happening every day.

I am opposed to blanket amnesty, but I do think that we need to come up with a plan for dealing with the illegal immigration issue in our country. We must first start by securing the border. It is the old adage, "the first thing you have to do to get out of a hole is to stop digging". We have to turn the water off before we can drain the sink.

We then need to identify the illegals (maybe an "amnesty from prosecution" by turning themselves in), determine what the penalty would be (fine, back taxes, whatever), issue a work permit and allow them to begin the process of citizenship (but not ahead of those who are already in the process legally). To avoid deportation, they must work, pay taxes, not be on public support of any kind, and not be arrested for any violations. Failure to meet those requirements would result in immediate deportation. Any illegals caught after the "amnesty period" who had not registered fore the process above, would be arrested and deported. Anybody arrested, deported, and arrested after entering the country illegally again, would be subject to a prison sentence, before being deported again.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Nov 12 at 2014 10:07 AM

2014-11-12T10:07:27-05:00

We are not resisting immigration, we are just demanding that those wishing to immigrate follow the laws? In 1776, immigration was limited by the Atlantic Ocean and the Crown. We have never allowed uncontroled access to our Nation, nor should we. Yes, come to the United States BUT know that you must follow our laws...and this starts by how you enter our Nation.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2014 10:21 AM

2014-11-12T10:21:41-05:00

Open immigration....can someone define that for me in a way that makes sense? IMO there's never been true "open immigration". We've been picky from day one and for good reason(s). Health is one.

As for the issues related to amnesty - really? So...someone commits a crime and just cuz they've been in the country for 20 some odd years we're gonna say..."don't worry about breaking laws, failing to pay taxes, using someone else's SSN - it's all good. And here's a brand new ID that says you're a U.S. citizen. Go forth and be the new voting cattle for (insert political party here)." REALLY? What about all the people that are going thru the true process of entering this country legally? Where do we draw the line?

Don't get me wrong - this nation is founded on immigrants. I'm not going into the argument vis-a-vis the native Indians - that should be an entirely different discussion. The immigrants became America - but for the most part they've done the legal thing at entry.

Maybe we need to have different levels of citizenship? For those who chose to sneak in and hide - we should offer them limited citizenship benefits for a period of time.

I'm not sure what the answer is - but I know that just granting blanket amnesty is certainly not the way we should do it.

Response by PO3 Brendan "Smitty" Smith made Nov 12 at 2014 10:32 AM

2014-11-12T10:32:05-05:00

I have no problem with immigration. I do have issues with people who break the law to do it. There are millions of people who are going through the legal process of immigrating to the U.S. These people toil away for years, getting a visa, qualifying for a green card, learning about the history of the U.S., what it means to be a citizen of this country, and eventually, after years of hard work, they will eventually get to become citizens.

Why should we reward those who break the law to come here, while allowing the millions who are doing it correctly languish? To me, that's an absolute slap in the face to those people.

Also, there are other reasons for controlling the flow of people into this country and making sure they are prepared for life once the get here (part of the immigration process.) How much of a strain on the state and federal infrastructure does unchecked illegal immigration cause?

I'm not saying we should no long except immigrants, I'm just saying that it is right, fair and prudent to do so in a controlled manner.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Nov 12 at 2014 10:56 AM

2014-11-12T10:56:11-05:00

In this same realm, I am even against someone being a citizen just because they were born in this country. Upon reaching the age of 18, all residents should be required to take a citizenship test in order to obtain their citizenship. If they are unable to pass, they are not able to utilize public benefits and services.

Robert Heinlein anyone?

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Nov 12 at 2014 12:30 PM

2014-11-12T12:30:03-05:00

In your question you said this. "If this is what our country was founded on...so why are we resisting immigration and amnesty? These are people that want a better life...and come to America to get it."

I have to point out a couple of issues I see. I have not seen anyone resisting the base issue of immigration. I have seen people resisting *illegal immigration* and I am one of them. There are legal ways to come to this country. If a person (no matter the circumstance) chooses to ignore the laws of this country, then they should be dealt with in accordance with the law. Period.
Do I resist amnesty? Yes. I find it funny that many of the people that are pro-amnesty bring up that Reagan did so. Hey, because I like him as a president doesn't mean I agree with everything he did. And I still resist amnesty. To me, it's pretty much saying "Go ahead and break our laws. We'll forgive you." Forgiveness is not the role of the government.

All of that was the first point. My second point is that we as a nation are not capable of taking care of the rest of the world. We should be focused on taking care of our own first. As long as we are not doing that, we should not be taking care of the rest of the world, especially uninvited guests in our own home.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2014 3:33 PM

2014-11-22T15:33:45-05:00

Great perspective! One I had admittedly not considered. To me it has always been about "the law. " my grandparents immigrated here from Italy following legal means. It is hypocritical of me to advocate closing the door completely. Clearly we need to fix the problem. I'm personally just not comfortable with how solutions are being put into place.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Nov 23 at 2014 12:54 PM

2014-11-23T12:54:56-05:00

I am all for equality... if their citizens come to our country, earn money and send 90% back to the countries they are from, I think our citizens should be able to do the same, t hat's equality, right? Sadly,they can't. Americans illegally in other countries, such as Mexico, will have long prision terms... not simply deportation. The percentage of Americans who do not survive these prison terms is quite high.
You keep saying Immigrants, but you keep leaving out the one word that DC wants us to forget... ILLEGAL.
To allow all these people to stay without any consequences, is a slap in the face to those who are doing all the right things, and working to earn their citizenship. Imagine, if you were on a job, you were giving this job the best you could do, and working hard to get to that corner office, when suddenly someone who hasn't done any of the work, just walks right in front of you, and makes themselves at home in that office you wanted. That's what its like for them.
By the way, this country wasn't founded on Immigration, it was founded for Freedom of Religion, and it was settled by immigrants. Immigrants that may or may not have come here willingly, but once here, realized the potential, and put in the work to not only surivive, but thrive.
Immigration has laws... obey the laws, and come on in... ignore one law, probably means that you will ignore others... which leads to the fact that 25 Americans a day die at the hands of Illegals. We cannot trace these people... we often don't catch them before they are back across the border, and Mexico is little or no help in finding these people, because America will not pay the usual "Fees" that are requested by those in charge.