Is there such thing as "NCO Business?"

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Nov 2013 18:48:52 -0500

or is it leaders business?

Response by SGM Glenn Dawkins made Nov 6 at 2013 8:02 PM

SGM Glenn Dawkins — Wed, 06 Nov 2013 20:02:35 -0500

Its really simple, we all share the responsibility of sustaining our army's mission and inherently its success. The purpose and direction comes from officers and the motivation and execution is driven by the NCO Corp. Onus and communication are also paramount to understanding our respective roles and failure to define these roles can be detrimental. The process is independent and a breakdown in communication on either side of the process bleeds failure. Ultimately, egos must take a back seat to the process. We are the sum of our parts...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2013 8:19 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Nov 2013 20:19:02 -0500

I agree with the responses posted prior to mine.  That being said, the only times I have heard the phrase used was when NCOs wanted to prevent an officer from "meddling" with some facet of their responsibility that they were not performing in a satisfactory manner.  For example, when I took over my platoon's PT program, my Platoon Sergeant and Section Sergeants informed me that it was "NCO business".  I informed them that I was ultimately answerable to the Commander for the performance of my platoon and that the program was not being executed to standard.  Bottom line:  yes, there are separate responsibilities for NCOs and officers.  However, the officer is ultimately responsible for the performance of the unit and should absolutely take action if his NCOs are not performing to the standard he requires.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 6 at 2013 8:46 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 06 Nov 2013 20:46:19 -0500

Im an NCO and I own 2 businesses.

Response by CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2013 10:56 PM

CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Nov 2013 22:56:41 -0500

Of course there is. Just like there is Officer Business. There are things that should be kept "in-house" and handled at the lowest level possible.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2013 11:10 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 11:10:13 -0500

Yes there is. But I also think that "This is NCO business." is used too often to get rid of an officer. The last paragraph of the NCO creed states "Officers at my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties. They will not have to accomplish mine." As an officer, it's my obligation to ensure the mission is accomplished. I do so by empowering my NCOs to be able to carry out the orders given. I don't micro manage because that's not my job. That is NCO business. If an NCO cannot, or fails to do what is needed to accomplish the mission, that is when NCO business becomes Leader business. I'm all about keeping things at the lowest level when at all possible.

Response by CPT Mike M. made Nov 7 at 2013 1:34 PM

CPT Mike M. — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 13:34:19 -0500

Despite how many times West Point told me that there was no such thing as NCO business and I shouldn't accept that as an answer, I know better.  But before you should go and always accept that as an answer you have to make sure that your unit (you're a 2LT so I'm assuming you have a platoon) has the right climate.  Respect and privacy is earned.  As long as you know 100% without a doubt that "NCO business" doesn't mean "wall-to-wall counseling" then I think you're ok and you should be.  I've always been lucky enough to have outstanding NCOs who took care of the day-to-day, were proactive and I never had to tell anyone to do something more than once.  However, as a Tank PL, I had them try telling me that when we were doing maintenance.  "Sir, you do what you've got to do, we'll take care of the vics" kind of thing.  I could have accepted that but it's just not in me.  A)  I don't shy away from manual labor - comes from being raised on a farm.  B)  It provided me an opportunity to learn more of the technical aspects of the vehicle I was in command of.  C)  Getting down and turning wrenches with the guys is where/when I learned more about their personal lives than anywhere else.  So basically, you need to find your own balance based on your personality, strengths, and weaknesses.  Other than that, trust your NCOs to do the right thing and to inform you when something escalates to a level that needs your attention or at the very least that you need to know about.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2013 2:05 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 14:05:14 -0500

I think it is important to note that what we are calling “NCO
Business” has to be formally established up and down the chain. Manpower is in short supply and
tasks/responsibilities are in abundance.
When I am formulating how my chain is going to work it is my duty to
make it very clear where I am placing authorities and what my expectations
are. My juniors should have a very clear
understanding of what “business” they are handling and what I expect to be
informed of no matter how minor the subject may be. I owe them this as top cover and although I
might bite a bullet or two from above their efficiency and proficiency will
result in far more praise. I still
however remain fairly useless and run around drinking coffee.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2013 2:53 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 14:53:30 -0500

There is such a thing as NCO Business, just the same as there is Officer Business.  As the NCO Creed says "Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; they will
not have to accomplish mine." It should go the same for both.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2013 3:57 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Nov 2013 15:57:20 -0500

I ran into this as a new PL. What I told my PSG was that
there is no such thing as NCO Business. I told him that there is Leader's
Business and that it had different levels. There was his/her level and my
level. The issue I take with this is that sometimes it is an excuse to not tell
an officer what it is that the NCO is doing. I preferred that my NCOs stated
"Sir, I am handling this issue and we will have a resolution for this by tomorrow."
As the PL you need to know everything that happens in your platoon and its
Soldiers. I say again, YOUR Platoon. Whenever I was blindsided by an overeager
NCO taking "imitative" I went straight into counseling mode. I
reminded my NCO that while I trusted them, I needed to know any issues or
training that was being planned. I reminded them that I was on the blame line
for everything and that I needed to have a basic understanding of their thought
process and what they were hoping to get out of the training or how they were
going to resolve the Soldier issue.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Nov 8 at 2013 2:54 AM

Cpl Ray Fernandez — Fri, 08 Nov 2013 02:54:38 -0500

There are things that are much easier to handle at a lower level, but an officer should have an idea of what's going on. An NCO should not be neutered by micromanagement of an officer, and an officer should not be mushroomed (kept in the dark and fed a bunch of BS) by the NCOs to the point where an incident occurs and the officer is blindsided by it. There has to be good communication and trust between officers and NCOs to allow each to be effective at their jobs and maintain the balance that allows a unit to function with one common voice that shows that the officer and the NCOs are on the same page.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2014 11:58 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Jun 2014 11:58:00 -0400

Yes, the old adage is NCOs run the Army and Officers Plan & Manage the Army. It's a shame that Warrant Officers aren't included in that adage BUT then does anyone who is not a Warrant Office really know what they do?

PLEASE NOTE: Warrant Officers were not meant to be offended by the writing of this POST.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Aug 20 at 2014 1:35 AM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 01:35:25 -0400

There is, but there shouldn't be. If it's NCO business it is leader's business. For example when it comes to semi-centralized promotions, it is the company commander who signs off on who goes to the board. Yet, most of the time the commanders leave this completely up to the NCOs to decide. I personally wouldn't want to sign off on something purely based on someone else's opinion, no matter how trust worthy. I've realized that even the most seemingly trust worthy individuals will still make partial and biased judgments some times. Senior NCOs also do a lot of things based on traditional and not always in accordance with regulations. If I were an officer, I would be as involved as possible. I would not afford my NCOs the opportunity to abuse their authority, but rather make them earn their authority and responsibilities.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Aug 25 at 2014 4:13 PM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:13:57 -0400

Sir

Hands down yes. NCOs and SNCOs should have the opportunity to take care of things without informing the Officers. There are plenty of things that we cna handle that don't need to be brought to the OIC or Head shed. Additionally the day to day actions of a platoon or shop should be left to the enlisted side. An OIC needs to give guidance to what they want and then let me get the results in the best way I know how.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2014 7:22 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Aug 2014 07:22:14 -0400

NO ! There is leader business. There is business that Officers should handle and business that Officers should stand back and let NCOs handle but they should still be aware of.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Sep 5 at 2014 8:43 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 08:43:27 -0400

Absolutely ... Just like there is "Officers' Business".

Each (NCO and Officer) has specific responsibilities specific to their rank that the other should not interfere with. That is not to say that there is no overlapping.

Officers should stay out of "NCO business" unless there is a clear problem stemming from it. Even then, it is better to let the 1SG or CSM deal with it.

I am a big believer in allowing NCOs the freedom and support to perform their very important missions. One of the biggest reasons our Army is as good as it is is due to the strong NCO Corps we have. They are, without a doubt, the backbone of our Army. My advice to all my officers has always been to get out of the way and let the NCOs do their jobs and concentrate on their own.

A funny story -- Shortly after retiring from the Army, my company was having a company picnic. I volunteered to help the set-up and a group of us were standing around a huge tent that had to be erected, trying to determine how to start putting it up. My boss at the time walked up to the group and stated to me "You were Colonel in the Army. Don't you know how to put up a tent?" I replied, "Sure I do" and turned to our Logistics Manager (a retired Army CSM) and said, "Sergeant Major, get the tent up" and walked away. And it was done... :-) Sergeant's Business 101...

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Sep 5 at 2014 10:50 AM

SSG Pete Fleming — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 10:50:54 -0400

YES!!!! I have been following this thread trying to not get involved but... There most definitely is NCO business. Just as there is Officer business. Though the Officer is technically senior and of course in charge and responsible for the actions of subordinates (blah blah blah...) The actual duties of the Officer and his/her NCOs are not the same (often parallel but not the same).

Now first there is the idea, things should be handled at the lowest level first. Secondly if the Officer is going to be directly involved in every detail, why have an NCO? It is called micromanagement and a bit insulting to think that people have been to promoted to levels of leadership to then have their actual position questioned. Now I can see Officers saying "that's my point..." No it isn't. Your actual position and the NCO position are not the same. You have people put into those positions for a reason.

To put it in civilian context, Officers are management and NCOs are supervisory in nature. Officers say what needs to happen, NCO's make it happen. NCO's conduct ERs and all that, they ready their personnel, they give 'counseling'... When I was in Germany every Thursday was 'Sergeant's Time'... it wasn't 'Officer and NCO time'... but Sergeant's Time.

A good leader knows their boundaries, though they should be aware of what is going on... they should, must respect the authority of their NCO's. And delegate responsibility accordingly. If the NCO is not capable of performing then take appropriate measures. If you are an officer who feels you must be involved in every aspect (a micromanager) it is in fact counter productive and strips away the authority of your NCO corp.

1LT Lorenzo Llorente, I mean this with deep respect but as a 1st LT... and you still ask this question your NCO's must have been a bit weak when you were a 2nd Lt... and I am sincere l when I say mean that respectfully.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2014 10:52 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 10:52:27 -0400

Maybe I've said this before...maybe I haven't...but here's my $.02...

If you, as an officer, have so much time on your hands to delve into the minutae of a lowly E-1's life then you're probably doing something wrong. Either that, or you're the best dang officer on the planet and we should elect you as one step above O-10 +. If the NCO's below you are not doing their jobs, it's not YOUR job to do THEIR job. An officer doing senior enlisted functions because the senior enlisted is falling down on the job is an example of poor leadership. If your senior enlisted personnel are not doing their jobs, then the officer's job is to bring the senior enlisted up to par - not do the senior enlisted's jobs!

An old, old salty dog told me this once - and it still works today: "Always be ready to step into any higher position above you." I don't recall him ever menitioning that it worked in reverse......and the Chief is always right!

Officers are repsonsible for seeing that the job gets done properly and on time - not doing the job itself. Over my career there were multiple junior officers that didn't want to adhere to that principle and found the error in their ways. Trust me, if the junior enlisted see that you're willing to do your job AND their jobs - they are more that willing to let you do it.

Too many officers get caught up in the mind trap of: "I'm held responsible for this job - if it doesn't get done then I have to do it!" Hotel Sierra. I learned that lesson as a lowly E-2 when assigned my first leadership role. When individuals assigned specific jobs failed to do what they were assigned at the end of the day - rather than hold them accountable I chose to finish their tasks. Of course, that ended up with me finishing multiple tasks at the end of the day because everyone knew: "George will do it". The Chief saw this and let it go for about two weeks before he sat me down and explained to me that I was getting paid precisely the same as the other individuals on a monthly basis, but on an hourly basis (number of hours worked daily) I was woefully in arears, to say nothing of the missing daily, weekly, bi-weekly and upcoming monthly reports I was responsible for but had yet to commence writing.

Back in those days, "wall to wall counseling" was a fact. Plus the Navy had what was called "smokers"....explanation available upon request. In the end I got the job done properly using discussion, holding others accountable and one stubborn a$$hole just insisted on the "wall to wall....". It happens. More often in the time of individuals who were drafted as opposed to today's volunteers and more professional military. Believe me, should this nation ever need to return to the draft, you will see the return of a great many necessary evils such as "wall to wall"..... Those that reject that thought out-of-hand may find themselves rethinking things should we ever be forced to go back to the draft. But that is another topic for another thread.

In summation, there are absolutely things such as "NCO business". A good officer knows and accepts this - no matter what the various Academies preach. NCO's who do not 'take care of business" should be dealt with - but the officer should not do the NCO's job.

Response by 1SG Mark Colomb made Sep 5 at 2014 11:10 AM

1SG Mark Colomb — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 11:10:12 -0400

There is only "company business" Both officers and NCO's participate in a collaborative nature to accomplish Company business. To say there is a distinction between the two is to marginalize one or the other.

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Sep 5 at 2014 5:35 PM

SGT Donald Croswhite — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 17:35:48 -0400

NCOs feed soldiers, officers feed powerpoint.
But seriously, Officers are their to plan and respond to changes in that plan. NCOs are their to execute and give advise to thier officer counterparts.
NCOs are there to keep standards, execute the mission, and maintain the welfare of their soldiers.
Switch your selector switch from safe to semi, and watch, your lane.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2014 11:25 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Sep 2014 23:25:20 -0400

That's NCO business, Sir. Don't worry yourself with it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 9:50 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 21:50:47 -0400

From SMA himself.. :D

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 3:03 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 03:03:21 -0500

Yes! Why? Number of reasons.
1. We don't want you to know
2. You need to concentrate on bigger things
3. Don't micro manage us and allow us to lead
4. It is a problem that needs to be handled at our level so you have plausible deniability.
5. You don't need to know everything.
6. My years of experience of dealing with soldiers probably is best suited to handle the situation
7. We are talking about you or other officers
8. You just might be the problem.
Where Are more, but these pretty much cover most of it. Don't get offended officers. These reasons are the same when NCOs are dismissed.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 9:09 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 09:09:00 -0500

Senior NCOs:

I'm highly confused about this whole "NCO business" versus "Officer business" theory. If you are one who believes there is such a thing as "NCO business", does it matter to you whether or not your CO was formerly an NCO? For example, if your company CO was prior enlisted as a SSG and then became a warrant officer before getting his/her commission, does that nullify the whole "NCO business" concept? Under what circumstances are you willing to acknowledge that your CO knows as much as (or more than) you do about NCO business, or does it not matter how much they know once they've gone to the dark side?

Response by PO2 Stephen Brinkley (Scott) made Jan 23 at 2015 10:07 AM

PO2 Stephen Brinkley (Scott) — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 10:07:07 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member absolutley! There have been times that I have counseled sailors and it never got back to the "O". Just because you out rank us doesn't mean that some of us that are senior enlisted don't know how or can't handle business. You have to trust your people that if they decide to keep a counseling at the E level they are doing it for corrective measures and don't need the kid pissing himself any worse than he would when we get done with him. I actually had to tell my division officer (O-1) on my last ship to leave the space, because we were blue shirt counseling. When he told me that this was his space and he could do anything he wanted I informed him very quickly that my boots had been in the Navy longer than he had and that if he didn't leave the space I would force him to leave the space. He left, but reported me to the EMO and Department Head. I explained to both the O-3 and the O-4 (both were Mustangs) that I asked nicely at first and when he refused and shared my feelings with him. They laughed and asked me to think better next time when addressing an Officer. I told them I would, I left and later that day the O-1 apologized to me.

Response by SGT David Emme made Jan 24 at 2015 12:25 AM

SGT David Emme — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 00:25:50 -0500

Yes, there is.
Best way to say it: Are officers raised by NCO's? No-but NCO's have been. Of course, most officers I served with that were combat MOS officers were really good and this was never a subject until I went to Walter Reed in 2004 and retired in 2006.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Apr 4 at 2015 7:05 PM

SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL — Sat, 04 Apr 2015 19:05:26 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member In my opinion, its called the NCO Creed, I served over 20 years in the Army being an NCO. It was always the health and welfare of my Soldiers and Mission Accomplishment.

History of the NCO Creed
The Creed has existed in different versions for a number of years. Long into their careers, sergeants remember reciting the NCO Creed during their induction into the NCO Corps. Nearly every NCO's office or home has a copy hanging on a wall. Some have intricate etchings in metal on a wooden plaque, or printed in fine calligraphy. But a quick glance at any copy of the NCO Creed and you will see no author's name at the bottom. The origin of the NCO Creed is a story of its own.

In 1973, the Army (and the noncommissioned officer corps) was in turmoil. Of the post-Vietnam developments in American military policy, the most influential in shaping the Army was the advent of the Modern Volunteer Army. With the inception of the Noncommissioned Officer Candidate Course, many young sergeants were not the skilled trainers of the past and were only trained to perform a specific job; squad leaders in Vietnam. The noncommissioned officer system was under development and the army was rewriting its Field Manual 22-100, Leadership, to set a road map for leaders to follow.

Of those working on the challenges at hand, one of the only NCO-pure instructional departments at the U.S Army Infantry School (USAIS) at Fort Benning, Georgia, GA was the NCO Subcommittee of the Command and Leadership Committee in the Leadership Department. Besides training soldiers at the Noncommissioned Officers Academy, these NCOs also developed instructional material and worked as part of the team developing model leadership programs of instruction.

During one brainstorming session, SFC Earle Brigham recalls writing three letters on a plain white sheet of paper... N-C-O. From those three letters they began to build the NCO Creed. The idea behind developing a creed was to give noncommissioned officers a "yardstick by which to measure themselves."

When it was ultimately approved, the NCO Creed was printed on the inside cover of the special texts issued to students attending the NCO courses at Fort Benning, beginning in 1974. Though the NCO Creed was submitted higher for approval and distribution Army-wide, it was not formalized by an official army publication until 11 years later.

Though it has been rewritten in different ways, the NCO Creed still begins its paragraphs with those three letters: N-C-O. It continues to guide and reinforce the values of each new generation of noncommissioned officers.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/nco_history/history-of-the-nco-creed.shtml

History of the NCO Creed (ArmyStudyGuide.com)

ArmyStudyGuide.com provide extensive information about History of the NCO Creed (ArmyStudyGuide.com)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2015 11:04 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Apr 2015 23:04:09 -0400

Yes...also leaders business should be kept separate and not confused with NCO business. A good example is training Soldiers. Officers are responsible for training being conducted (example would be commander) it's my responsibility to CONDUCT training. You tell me the cat needs to be skinned, don't tell me how to do it, and don't ask me how it was done. Chances are you don't care to know or want to know. As I told my Ma'am once...you have NCOs for plausible deniability.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2016 11:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 23:49:42 -0400

1LT Lorenzo Llorente, I am surprised the conversation got this far without anyone posting the book answer...which can be found in TC 7-22.7, The NCO Guide. http://www.apd.army.mil/ProductMaps/TRADOC/TC.aspx

I am curious to hear your thoughts on the subject after you have had time to peruse chapter five, here is a small excerpt....

"5.2. Army Officers and NCO relationship. Mutual trust and common goals are the two characteristics that enhance the relationship between Officers and NCOs. For instance, “NCOs have roles as trainers, mentors, communicators, and advisors. When junior officers first serve in the Army, their NCO helps to train and mold them. Doing so ensures Soldier safety while forming professional and personal bonds with the officers based on mutual trust and common goals” NCOs are “the backbone of the Army” and are the senior enlisted advisors who assist Commanders with knowledge and discipline for all enlisted matters.

a. Every Soldier has a Sergeant. Officers are no exception. Platoon Sergeants, First Sergeants, Sergeants Major and Command Sergeants Major at all levels serve as their respective officer’s Sergeant.

b. An important part of your role as an NCO is how you relate to commissioned officers. To develop this working relationship, NCOs and officers must know the similarities of their respective duties and responsibilities

TC-Training Circular

Response by CW4 Eric Clayton made May 21 at 2019 11:29 AM

CW4 Eric Clayton — Tue, 21 May 2019 11:29:25 -0400

Yes. ANYTHING that excludes Officers and Warrant Officers. Usually dealing with discipline, team training or just getting stuff done without being micromanaged. This from a former NCO and current WO.

Response by SPC Robert Bobo made Apr 26 at 2022 12:56 PM

SPC Robert Bobo — Tue, 26 Apr 2022 12:56:49 -0400

Yes, without a doubt, even in the private sector a frontline leader is responsible for certain aspects of operations while some aspects must be elevated to a 2nd or even 3rd level leader, having clarity on your responsibilities makes you a better leader

Response by SSG Roland Shelton made Jan 30 at 2023 4:59 PM

SSG Roland Shelton — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 16:59:06 -0500

Absolutely, as long as the ncos are taking care of issues that fall within their responsibilities.

Response by MSG Donna Dewar made Jul 6 at 2023 4:34 PM

MSG Donna Dewar — Thu, 06 Jul 2023 16:34:58 -0400

If NCOs took care of their troops to teach and guide as they used to, then there would indeed be NCO business Enlisted and Officers each took care of their own.

Response by 1SG John Millan made Feb 2 at 2024 2:51 AM

1SG John Millan — Fri, 02 Feb 2024 02:51:28 -0500

Of course. NCO purview. In civilian terms, NCOs are foremen, officers are executives.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 2 at 2024 1:37 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 02 Feb 2024 13:37:50 -0500

Absolutely. NCOs are the direct leaders of the troops. Therefore, I expected them to be intimately familiar with the soldiers. For example, I expected the E-5s to know most about the soldiers because they are where the rubber meets the road. I also expected the NCOs to use their vast knowledge for training the unit.

Response by Maj John Bell made Feb 2 at 2024 1:50 PM

Maj John Bell — Fri, 02 Feb 2024 13:50:24 -0500

Generally, in the Marines, NCO's and SNCO's are the standard bearers on matters of discipline and tradition. Officers get involved when asked, or when there is an obvious threat to life, limb, serialized equipment or clear signs that The SNCO chain is failing (never saw or heard of such a thing as SNCO chain failing, maybe an individual but never the chain).