Leadership vs. Management?

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:26:07 -0500

Are Leaders successful Managers or are Managers successful Leaders? Or both?

Do you need both in order to be successful? Which specific positions in the
Military would Leaders be successful rather than Managers or vice versa?

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Dec 2 at 2013 10:36 AM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:36:46 -0500

You can lack the ability of one and still be good at the other. You can also be good at both, or neither.
The Army structure would seem to require you be good at both, but as long as your team is capable of both, you can succeed regardless. This dynamic is seen in the Command team where the Commander is the Leader and his XO is the manager and the 1SG is HR.
Of course, the trick is, if you really suck at one, don't create a toxic environment using the other to compensate.

Response by CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. made Dec 2 at 2013 10:51 AM

CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:51:16 -0500

I am of the opinion that good management is a component of good leadership. Management is about tasks and deadlines, and driving subordinates to complete those tasks regardless of the subordinates' understanding of the tasks and their benefit to the organization. Leadership, however, is the next step where the person in charge is able to genuinely communicate the value of the tasks to the organization, that the work of the people accomplishing those tasks is valued, and that the task has some positive effect for the individuals actually doing the work. I like to use property accountability as an example for everything (it's easy). The manager can put an inventory on the training schedule as a mandatory event that meets the 100% property accountability rule. A few Soldiers will be tasked to do the layout and sit around while the Commander and supply sergeant conduct the inventory. All this while other Soldiers are doing other random stuff because the squads or platoons are understrength due to the inventory. This is management. The task is clear, the deadline is clear, and it is accomplished with little or no benefit to the whole. The leader, will make property accountability an implied METL task, make it the sole event on the training calendar for the specific period of time, and direct NCOs to know and instruct predetermined subjects out of AR 710-2 or 735-5.  After the Soldiers have laid out the equipment, the NCOs are providing instruction on relevant points of Army property accountability while the Commander and supply sergeant conduct the inventory. The Commander has demonstrated his/her commitment to  property accountability, required NCOs to develop their own knowledge, and set Soldiers up for better performance on competitive or promotion boards.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Dec 2 at 2013 10:55 AM

SGM Matthew Quick — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:55:18 -0500

Simple...you LEAD people and you MANAGE systems.

Not everyone can lead (it's a commitment), but leaders can surround themselves with good managers.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Dec 2 at 2013 11:08 AM

CMC Robert Young — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 11:08:12 -0500

Both are required to be competent in our profession. They may intersect frequently, and at times require some of the same skill sets, but they are different things. You lead people. You manage things or processes. Leaders always accomplish far more than managers do because they inspire and motivate people to higher levels of performance. I have worked for far too many people who managed the budget; the unit equipment inventory; the work process, and obtained the minimum necessary standard, but they never truly achieved what they should have because their people did the minimum. Leaders must be good managers, but managers may get by without being good leaders.

Response by LtCol Dann Chesnut made Dec 5 at 2013 10:30 AM

LtCol Dann Chesnut — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:30:33 -0500

I think that you must know what a leader is, and what a manager is. If you are unable to express the definition of each, then you don't really know the difference. Simply put; Leaders lead, and Managers manage. Those things that a Leader does will sometimes overlap with what a Manager does, but not entirely. So I invite responses to: Define Leader & Define Manager.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 5 at 2013 11:16 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 11:16:28 -0500

You need both. Being able to lead someone is great, but if you can't manage their counseling's, awards, NCOER's, Mandatory Training, Personal Issues, or the countless other minutiae that make up military life, then in the end you're not much good to your unit or your people.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2013 12:04 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 12:04:51 -0500

I think you definitely need both and I do believe that leadership is what you do to influence others. Just not writing in a log book, making out schedules but actually showing how it is to be done. Sharp uniform, technical knowledge and so forth.

Management is keeping things straight, assuring they are where they should be so as to keep equipment, personnel and leadership on the ready for deployment.

Response by SFC Josh Watson made Dec 5 at 2013 4:09 PM

SFC Josh Watson — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 16:09:38 -0500

I've seen this posed as "Leaders and Bosses". To me a Leader is the one who gets out front, shows what right looks like, sets the example and meets the standard, inspires others through his/her actions and is admired and revered as a caring and fair individual. A Boss is the guy, that from behind a desk issues orders not necessarily understanding the labor involved and not caring, the guy who is in it to win it no matter the cost to his subordinates and finally the guy who gets results because of his position. I feel like there are a lot of Bosses out there who like to think of themselves as leaders because they have the authority to issue orders or directives. So to answer the question in my opinion, YES, Leaders can make good Bosses; NO, bosses don't make good leaders. It may sound cynical, but I think there are more Bosses than Leaders in our military. I may be way off track with what I think you are asking though.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2013 4:19 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 16:19:29 -0500

I was taught many years ago that you should "Lead from the Front... Lead from the Rear... Lead from wherever you find yourself" which is to say that EVERYONE, from the PV2 just off the bus from basic to the General with 35 years of experience, can be a leader. Set a standard by your actions, and inspire those around you to succeed to that standard!

In my unit, every job requires you to be a Manager, whether it is managing the entire Station, or just managing your own workload, but some of the jobs require little to no leadership skills, as you can manage them on your own...

Response by 1SG Johnny Carter made Dec 5 at 2013 4:23 PM

1SG Johnny Carter — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 16:23:00 -0500

Good leaders will be great managers by putting the right Soldiers in the right spots to help manage the hurding of cats!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2013 9:32 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Dec 2013 09:32:01 -0500

They are definitely not the same but you need a certain degree of
both if you wish to be successful in any undertaking, whether it is
professional or personal. The manager in
you must plan and organize and the leader must inspire and motivate. Theodore Roosevelt said it like this; “People ask the difference between a leader
and a boss. The leader leads, and the
boss drives.”

Response by SPC Rachel Stubbs made Dec 6 at 2013 9:35 AM

SPC Rachel Stubbs — Fri, 06 Dec 2013 09:35:15 -0500

I think first and for most you need to know how to lead. To be able to show others hows it is done and to be a great mentor is a very important skill. Being able to inspire those under you is a quality few mangers from my experience have had.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2013 12:23 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Dec 2013 12:23:17 -0500

Like many members are saying here, in the military as you go through your career you may be both at times or just one or the other. How you embrace these roles will determine your effectiveness in each. Leaders need to provide the guidance, inspiration, and wiliness to let their personnel learn from their mistakes (positive constructive mentoring in those situations help them recovery from these mistakes quickly and puts them on the road success). Managers need to provide the proper direction, standards, timelines, etc., so that programs are run properly and those personnel are empowered to make decisions and/or actions to achieve the proper goals.

For myself during the day-to-day operations, our unit's manning was small. So, myself and others in my type of position would have to juggle daily leadership issues and manage multiple additional duties. It was a constant challenge to make sure you didn't get lax on any aspect of your leadership or management roles. Unlike many, I enjoyed the satisfaction of seeing my junior members improve and performances recognized while I stayed I the background.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Dec 7 at 2013 12:48 AM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sat, 07 Dec 2013 00:48:09 -0500

https://www.rallypoint.com/questions/14297-leadership-vs-management

Leadership vs. Management?

Are Leaders successful Managers or are Managers successful Leaders? Or both?

Do you need both in order to be successful? Which specific positions in the
Military would Leaders be successful ...

Response by SPC James Bailey made Mar 15 at 2014 9:55 PM

SPC James Bailey — Sat, 15 Mar 2014 21:55:16 -0400

leadership at e-1 through e-7 and o-1 to o-5: management at warrant level, e-8 to e-special and o-6 up

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2014 5:18 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:18:42 -0400

I want immediate management skills then at top levels or operational I need great leadership. Great management will effect your immediate day to day life at work, while leadership should mold the manager in you and your fellow supervision.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2014 5:35 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:35:53 -0400

MSGT, this is a GREAT question. Most people don't realize that there is a BIG difference in the two. There is one trait that really separates the two, and that is vision. A manager does not need to have vision to be effective. I don't think most junior enlisted realize that. I really think that the leadership/management question is not a "level" question, but a billet question.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2014 5:38 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:38:07 -0400

Great question. A leaders posses vision. A manager posses that ability to turn that vision into a mission. Both are important however.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 16 at 2014 5:54 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sun, 16 Mar 2014 17:54:35 -0400

It is more important to keep our proven leaders.

Leadership is more important, specifically leading by example and setting the example for your subordinates to emulate. A leader can shape the organization and motivate them to accomplish some of the most arduous task's that the organization might not have thought they could accomplish. A leader leads with resonate influence throughout the organization.

I do not minimize the importance of managers however, when I think of management I think more of an idea of production control, the numbers game of business. Managers within the military could be looked at as the staff that supports the command team. Managers do provide vital information to the command team which can (and does) shape the focus of the organizations mission whether it is mandatory briefings or an upcoming major training event. Both (Leaders & Managers) are important to the overall accomplishment of the units mission.

One of the unique advantages we have in the military is that our lower level commanders normally have an opportunity to serve on staff (supporting other command teams) which helps round them and improve our overall command & control. Hope this perspective (from an old guy) helps.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 16 at 2014 6:04 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:04:24 -0400

There is a very similar post (did not see your post at the time), I would like to share my thought from that post here as well.

I believe there is a big difference between a leader and manager. I am also of the belief that great leaders must be able to manage (e.g. Priorities of effort of the organization) and managers must be able to lead (their sections or divisions).

Leadership is more important, specifically leading by example and setting the example for your subordinates to emulate (this post is from the military aspect point of view). A leader can shape the organization and motivate them to accomplish some of the most arduous task's that the organization might not have thought they could accomplish. A leader leads with resonate influence throughout the organization.

I do not minimize the importance of managers however, when I think of management I think more of an idea of production control, the numbers game of business. Managers within the military could be looked at as the staff that supports the command team. Managers do provide vital information to the command team which can (and does) shape the focus of the organizations mission whether it is mandatory briefings or an upcoming major training event. Both (Leaders & Managers) are important to the overall accomplishment of the units mission.

One of the unique advantages we have in the military is that our lower level commanders normally have an opportunity to serve on staff (supporting other command teams) which helps round them and improve our overall command & control. Hope this perspective (from an old guy) helps.

Response by CCMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2014 6:07 PM

CCMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:07:26 -0400

Ah, the age old question... management vs leadership! I could sit here and write on this one for hours giving my humble opinion. But at the end of the day you need a portion of both. A great leader who can't manage worth a darn can only go so far... you can inspire, motivate, and professionally develop your people but if you can't vector your SNCOs with their evals aligning with their promotion eligibilty cutoff dates, forecasting for stratifications, handling your awards program etc... much of that professional development might be for a loss if you miss the targets at the right time. And I only throw in that one example out of 100+ I've seen.

And of course management can only take you so far... though it can carry people a long way. But we've all heard the saying: "you can't manage people into battle!"

I don't think you have to be an expert in both by any means and it's quite alright to have one of those exceed each other in strength. But those that can only do one or the other will find that it usually catches up to them sooner or later. Though I find the greatest managers and/or leaders learn to pick up the traits of both along the way (though again, it's okay to lean heavy in one direction or the other). Of course I would always like to hope mine leans towards leadership. But that's not for me to say... that's up to my Airmen to decide.

Lastly I'll add... a wise 'ol Chief told me long ago that when you are promoting to Senior and Chief you'll start to see folks travel towards two different paths... Policy or People (and your EPRs/Evals should really start reflecting that vector)! I've noticed this to be true in some regards... I've seen the better managers end up being vectored towards Functional, Career Field Manager, HAF, Air Staff etc... aka Policy. Whereas the leader types tend to vector towards Group Superintendent, Academy Commandants, Command Chief positions etc... aka People. But obviously both still require skills in both management/leadership departments.

And obviously I'm giving my humble opinion from the Air Force side of the house... and this isn't an exact science that I'm trying to portray by any means as there's no one size fits all (as I don't want any CFMs to think I'm saying they can't lead or vice versa... far from it =)

Response by 1SG Frank Rocha made Mar 16 at 2014 6:09 PM

1SG Frank Rocha — Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:09:33 -0400

I found an interesting article in the wall street journal about this that might be an interesting read for some of you.

http://guides.wsj.com/management/developing-a-leadership-style/what-is-the-difference-between-management-and-leadership/

What is the Difference Between Management and Leadership? - Management - WSJ.com

The manager’s job is to plan, organize and coordinate. The leader’s job is to inspire and motivate. Learn the differences between management and leadership.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 17 at 2014 7:27 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:27:33 -0400

At the squad leader level, leadership. At Platoon Sergeant and above, management.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2014 7:48 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Mar 2014 07:48:14 -0400

MSgt Peeterse,

In my opinion, those who cannot do both may not make it in a smaller military, but it may depend on their jobs. Some are managers and some are leaders, and some are both. You will probably see those who are not good at both get passed over for promotion and those who excel at both get promoted above their peers. I believe that we already require leadership earlier, but as for rewarding, there are many ways to do that. As for a perfect balance, sure, there is, and I believe that those are the ones who will get promoted and be allowed to stay in the military.

Response by CMSgt Edward Godsey made Mar 18 at 2014 9:29 AM

CMSgt Edward Godsey — Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:29:19 -0400

This is great discussion. This a topic that has been debated and discussed for many years. During my time I learned that BOTH have to be developed over time and BOTH are essential to our people and mission success. The problem/issue is that whatever style we have a tendency to operate in is a reflection of our own personalities. This isn't a bad thing because few of us a great in both areas. What the good leader or manger does is recognize the areas he/she might be lacking in when it comes to "Leadership" or Management" and works to improve those areas. That can be a major hurdle becasue some don't or refuse to look at their "blind spots". Both of these traits are essential to lead and manage today's Warriors. The mentorship in developing these two traits must begin as soon as that new troop steps into your work center and not be "delayed" until a certain rank/grade is achieved. There are many opportunities in day to day operations to expose and teach how our Warriors are to effectively develop these traits. This discussion must never stop. As long as there is effective and honest discussion, we will "grow" strong leaders and mangers.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Mar 18 at 2014 1:47 PM

CMC Robert Young — Tue, 18 Mar 2014 13:47:12 -0400

MSgt, both will always be required in the military; however, I believe that leadership is the more important simply because it involves inspiration, vision, character, and so many other intangible things which motivate people to perform at a higher level. Each unit has and needs its managers, but when the fecal material hits the ventilators we all want a leader out front.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Mar 18 at 2014 5:46 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Tue, 18 Mar 2014 17:46:19 -0400

This is really great topic. I taught 4 semesters of Leadership and Management in Nursing to my 2nd Semester Senior nursing students. One of the things that must be understood is that these 2 things go together, even while being separate.

Leadership is the ability to guide people. Formal leaders are appointed by the organization and they will meet the organizations goals. Informal leaders are people that have followers. They are not always assigned by the organization, and often it revolves around such things as knowledge base or traits that people choose to associate with.

Management is controlling something....you can manage a budget. You can manage staffing. You can manage people, however this is more related to filling a mission or goal for the organization...shifting people as needed. Often the management aspect will align more closely with the formal leader.

Response by SMSgt Jeff G made Mar 26 at 2014 4:03 PM

SMSgt Jeff G — Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:03:56 -0400

A leader is someone who gets results by example and can effectively manage people and assets. A manager...is usually someone who thinks about the bottom line with little regard for people. I've worked with and for both and can say the managers far out number the leaders. When you find a good leader, he or she will have earned your trust and loyalty.

Response by MAJ Keith Davis made Mar 30 at 2014 7:20 AM

MAJ Keith Davis — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 07:20:18 -0400

Management is rearward looking, leadership is forward looking. You can lead your unit/squad/PLT to an unmanageable position of relative disadvantage. So Both.

Any green-tab position is a leadership position, PSG, 1SG, CSM, PL, and CDR at all levels.

The best way to grow leaders is make them managers first so they understand the difficulty of managing decisions made by the leader, especially the "bad" leadership decisions. From those you will learn the most and provide value to your leadership style.