What is your rationale for the continuation of teaching manual gunnery?

2024-05-01T21:35:20-04:00

My rationale for the continuation of teaching manual gunnery is so that a "skilled" FDC person could still determine "reasonably accurate" (HE/Q only) firing data if all electronic means is in the toilet. This is never a complete solution, however an FA unit with guns that don't go boom, is merely a massive target-to-be. Do you agree with this rationale?

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made May 2 at 2024 12:20 AM

2024-05-02T00:20:03-04:00

It has been my experience, the fancier and more complicated a piece of electronics is the more likely it will fail the very moment you need it the most! Knowing how to do something "old school" is not a bad ace to have in the hole.

Response by SPC James Neidig made May 2 at 2024 1:54 AM

2024-05-02T01:54:59-04:00

The Modern Military Relies Too Much On Electronic Devices !!!
If An Enemy Uses An Electromagnetic Device And Wipes Out Our Electronics We Have To Be Able To Continue The Fight.
How Many Of Our Soldiers Will Know How To Fight Without Using Electronic Devices,
No GPS, No Radios, No Computers And No Motor Vehicles.
They Need To Teach How To Fight Without The Use Of Electronic Devices.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made May 2 at 2024 8:13 AM

2024-05-02T08:13:40-04:00

Yes. I was in during the very start of GPS for navigation. I still carried a compass.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made May 2 at 2024 10:28 AM

2024-05-02T10:28:57-04:00

Example: 2003 I was the V Corps Rear G3 SGM. The G3 section had gone electronic with all the maps and tracking. Before deploying we had put together maps of the AO. When setting up I told my OPS NCOIC even though they were tracking electronic, I wanted the maps kept current every 12 hrs, but only to BDE level and above. War kicks off, temps get so hot all the electronics crash. The CoS comes to me, telling me the Rear CG can't follow the battle. I calmly tell him I got a map, the CoS does a double take asks where the map is, I say in the back room, kept current every 12 hrs to BDE level and above. I got the map up front, the CG was happy, the CoS had his ass back and everyone was happy because I had my plan B. You always have a plan "B" because electronics can fail.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made May 2 at 2024 10:31 AM

2024-05-02T10:31:17-04:00

Back in the 80s when I was a HHB CO in 8 inch Bn. The new FDC soldiers came back from Sill with only TAC fire training. We had to give them training with sticks and charts

Response by C/SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2024 12:24 PM

2024-05-02T12:24:40-04:00

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Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 2 at 2024 12:46 PM

2024-05-02T12:46:55-04:00

And do fools actually think that computers/etc. won't be 1st legitimate targets. Can see it now- "Oh Sorry, Fire request denied- we are having technical issues".

Response by SSG Dale London made May 2 at 2024 1:45 PM

2024-05-02T13:45:01-04:00

My response is three simple letters: E M P
However hardened your system is supposed to be against EMP, there is no guarantee that it will survive one. If it doesn't and you have mastered manual gunnery, you are still combat effective. If you haven't, then you become a liability to the mission.
Technology can fail. The enemy is not going to stop just because your fancy electronics give up the ghost or your batteries die.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made May 2 at 2024 1:50 PM

2024-05-02T13:50:59-04:00

Yours is the main reason to keep teaching manual gunnery as a required basic skill.

My own thinking is about teaching it as a higher skill. In many MOS there are things that computers do for us -- the computers do those things faster and more accurately -- as you point out, if you don't know the basic process you are always "at the mercy of a single fuse" but another significant issue is that if something goes wrong and you don't understand the process you can't even tell someone what is wrong beyond a neanderthal-level "it's busted" and you are completely useless at troubleshooting

One more reason for understanding the process is that we need to constantly improve the system. No one expects any artilleryman to design the next better fire control system or a tanker to design the next better tank fire control system, but where do you think the USEFUL ideas for a better system are going to come from? The computer programmers have no idea what we need, we have to tell them "what" so they can work on the "how" but if we don't understand the process we won't know what to ask for or how to describe the issue we are asking them to solve.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 4 at 2024 8:10 PM

2024-05-04T20:10:25-04:00

Sometimes ballistic computers go down; thus it is important to understand the theories of manual firing. Your value will increase significantly if you know theory and manual execution because you can connect more dots in your profession. There is much more than the knowledge to push a few buttons.