MSG stand at Parade Rest for 1SG or SGM for a CSM

2014-06-06T09:45:03-04:00

I am finding a lot of contention with the saluting post. I will now put on the level of enlisted soldiers now.

If you are in a company that has a MSG in it, like an HHC, would the MSG stand at parade rest for the 1SG. The 1SG is the senior most soldier in the company. Would this be the case for a OPS SGM and the BN CSM.

I know they are all the same pay grade but the duty position makes one the Senior and one the subordinate. If you think this is still not clear. Would a BN CSM stand at Parade Rest for a BDE CSM.

Would a SPC and a CPL be the same as they are in the same pay grade?

As with LTs they see themselves as peers but one is still senior to the other.

FM 7-21.13 para 4-16
• When speaking to or being addressed a noncommissioned officer of superior rank, stand at parade rest until ordered otherwise.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 10:06 AM

2014-06-06T10:06:03-04:00

Sir,

I believe the MSG would have to stand at parade rest for the 1SG. Like you stated, even though they are the same pay grade, the 1SG is in a position of authority. I believe the same is true for the different types of CSMs.

/r
SGT McLamb

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 10:19 AM

2014-06-06T10:19:27-04:00

I have seen many MSGs and SGMs stand at ease for their senior counterparts. Usually it occurs in a more public forum, like at a formation or in large gathering like a briefing. I've also seen it happen during an office call. Once that initial meeting has occured, it becomes a bit lore casual when the two are in a more private setting (for example, I'm in the Corps CSM office and the G4 SGM comes in, he doesn't go to at ease or parade rest but I don't interpret that as being any less respectful)

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 10:27 AM

2014-06-06T10:27:56-04:00

Parade Rest:
- Enlisted Soldiers assume this position when addressing all noncommissioned officers or when noncommissioned officers address noncommissioned officers of superior rank.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 10:39 AM

2014-06-06T10:39:12-04:00

Sir,
You really enjoy stirring the pot!

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jun 6 at 2014 10:46 AM

2014-06-06T10:46:15-04:00

1LT Rosa, I acknowledge the logic you are using to frame the question. But I have never seen a MSG stand at proper parade rest for a 1SG or SGM/CSM. And in the way I have seen these leaders interact, I don't necessarily think there is an expectation of standing at parade rest. When my old 1SG talked to the CSM, he addressed him by rank as is appropriate, but the two of them seemed friendly enough to not have the CSM pulling rank on my 1SG. Of course, this is just one scenario, and I can imagine other RP members have other experiences with this.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jun 6 at 2014 10:54 AM

2014-06-06T10:54:48-04:00

What if the MSG here has already been a 1SG? Sometimes after a 1SG has finished his time in that position, and has handed off that role, he goes back to wearing MSG rank (correct?). So in this case, the MSG here may actually be more senior as far as TIG than the 1SG.

Response by MSG Gene Potocki made Jun 6 at 2014 11:03 AM

2014-06-06T11:03:26-04:00

Standard military courtesy to stand at parade rest for a senior rank then yours, regardless if you had previously held the same position the TIG/TIS game doesn't fly if you are a professional. Go behind the fence in the Ranger Regiment and you'll see this on a daily basis.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 11:26 AM

2014-06-06T11:26:43-04:00

A MSG/1SG and SGM/CSM are of the same rank, it's just a change in duty position or a lateral promotion, if you will. A MSG and SGM are staff positions where a 1SG/CSM are in command positions. So, if you look at the reg excerp, it states "of superior rank" not "of superior duty postion".

Looking at the LT saluting thread a 1LT is of higher rank than a 2LT.

Response by SSG Christopher Freeman made Jun 6 at 2014 12:46 PM

2014-06-06T12:46:12-04:00

I usually see MSGs not at parade rest and just calling them 1SG or top. The same goes for SGM to CSM.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Jun 6 at 2014 12:48 PM

2014-06-06T12:48:01-04:00

Sir Rank is the same E-8 is an E-8 E-9 is an E-9. I think at that point in their careers they understand the professionalism that needs to displayed.

Response by CPT Jacob Swartout made Jun 6 at 2014 1:47 PM

2014-06-06T13:47:30-04:00

For a 1SG, I would say no because they are the same pay grade. Just in differnt positions. My former 1SG is now a MSG here in a S3 shop with his unit.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 2:09 PM

2014-06-06T14:09:12-04:00

There is the saying, respect the rank and not the man. But even with that being said, its all about the professional relationship between those who were that rank. They understands and the responsibilities they are charged with. MSG/1SG & SGM/CSM are the same rank. It is a lateral promotion. One just carries more responsibily with the position [1SG & CSM]. I had a MSG assume 1SG duties while the 1SG was actually deployed and a 1SG assume CSM duties while the CSM was deployed. The only time I see a MSG or SGM go to parade rest is during formation and during the CSM pow wow before the battalion formation. Why? To show respect to the senior enlisted soldier of the battalion.

BN CSMs will go to parade rest for the BDE CSM because he [BDE CSM] is the Senior Enlisted soldier of the BDE. I saw this all the time downrange with my BN CSMs going to parade rest for my BDE CSM. It was never about the power and subordinate issue. It just a matter of respect and perception you needed to show to our lower enlisted soldiers. The same way showed when I saw my BDE CSM go to parade rest for the DIV CSM. They maybe all peers but you still show your respect to the Senior Enlisted soldier of the unit.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 2:44 PM

2014-06-06T14:44:26-04:00

If you are a SGT do you stand at parade rest (or at ease) for another SGT? What if you were a SSG would you stand at parade rest for another SSG? Same thing if you were a SFC?

With that being said I have seen more then one BN CSM stand at parade rest for a more senior CSM, usually its a very high CSM like DIV CSM or SMA. Of course its always done in the presence of the rest of the unit, and in a very public forum.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 3:05 PM

2014-06-06T15:05:34-04:00

Im a SFC and i stand at parade rest when talking to my 1SG. When he tells me to relax it seems odd to me so i just go back to parade rest lol. I cant help it. I like to be at parade rest so when he starts yelling at me he doesnt have to tell me to lock up lol.
Im just joking on the last part.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 9:59 PM

2014-06-06T21:59:32-04:00

A couple of issues I have with this entry into the FM:

1. if you stand at parade rest, you are prevented from speaking which makes you ineffective for interacting with your "superior"
2. In order to speak you would have to go to "at ease", which you would not be able to since you are at Parade Rest. So in effect, you would have to stand at Parade Rest, then when speaking, go to At Ease, then back to Parade Rest.
3. The intention of Parade Rest is pretty simple: The command should be used only for Ceremony, not actual day to day activities and interactions.
4. If you are taking fire and address your Rifleman, are you expecting him to stop what he is doing and go to Parade Rest?
5. So if you get stopped by an MP that has the rank of PV2, you expect him to stand at parade rest, if that is the case he wouldn't be able to do his job.
6. You can't have it both ways.

Another issue I have is what I want to call Garrison Rangers, and we all know who they are.

These are the "NCOs" that walk up to troops and initiate a conversations and say shit such as "you need to get at Parade Rest when I am talking to you."

So in effect, you are telling them that you could care less about what they are doing and that you are more important.

This is bad leadership. If expecting soldiers to come to parade rest is that important to you, then you need to seriously conduct not only a personal assessment, but also you need to check to make sure that you are in the right kind of profession.

Do all leaders expect soldiers to stand at Parade Rest? Sure, why not, it is something that we are all taught in Basic and AIT. Do we all have a natural tendency to question whether we should stand at parade rest?. Sure because it was something that was taught to us in basic and AIT and that it is a symbol of respect. But the moment you as a leader focus on your soldiers standing at parade rest instead of putting lead down range, that, to me, means that it is time for you to go.

Honestly, I could care less if a soldier stood at parade rest, I car more about him covering my 6 and doing his god damn job and doing it right.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2014 12:23 AM

2014-06-07T00:23:26-04:00

A good one sir would be as a SFC would you stand at parade rest for a SFC in a 1SG position not in your company/troop?

Response by 1SG Jacob Baty made Jun 7 at 2014 6:13 AM

2014-06-07T06:13:50-04:00

A MSG does not have to stand at parade rest for a 1SG. They are both NCO's of the same grade.
The argument regarding Specialist vs Corporal is invalid. I do not see any chevrons on a specialist. A corporal is an NCO a specialist is not.
9 times out of ten (in the infantry anyway) a MSG had already suffered his time as a 1SG and is in a staff position being groomed for the next higher pay grade.
My advice to any 1SG who tries to play a rank game with a MSG. Do everyone a solid and turn in your diamond because you are to damn full of yourself to have any business leading troops.

Response by SSG Daniel Rosploch made Jun 9 at 2014 9:08 AM

2014-06-09T09:08:45-04:00

Of course you have seniority between NCOs. A Staff Sergeant could be in the position of Platoon Sergeant and have other Staff Sergeants "beneath" him, but no, they wouldn't stand at parade rest for each other. When NCOs of the same grade hold a position higher than their peers, there is (supposed) mutual respect between them. Making a peer stand at parade rest for you is just a way for one guy to show who's d**k is bigger, which is asinine and that NCO should just have himself reduced back to E-4, since obviously he's still stuck in high school.

The same goes for E-9s (BN CSM vs BDE CSM) and 1SG vs MSG. However, as has been said before, a Corporal has stripes, a Specialist does not. If the Specialist is smart, he'll stand at parade rest for the Corporal not only to show respect to the rank but to teach the junior Soldiers what right looks like. And maybe he'll also get his Corporal...

Response by CSM Christopher St. Cyr made Jun 9 at 2014 9:55 PM

2014-06-09T21:55:49-04:00

Sir,

They are different ranks, but unlike Lieutenants one is not demoted if they change jobs from 1SG or CSM to Ops or other staff job, the diamond stays with the company. Same with the wreath.

Question back for you Sir...if one of my soldiers has a pay problem and I am their section NCO on a staff in a GO command, who is the next link in the NCO support channel, my HHC's 1SG or the GO's CSM?

Response by 1SG Frank Rocha made Jun 17 at 2014 11:19 PM

2014-06-17T23:19:53-04:00

Well sir by the "letter of the law" that is a true statement an NCO of superior rank is afforded this courtesy by the policy you have cited. Then again superior NCO's are also supposed to be given the greeting of the day, or a standard greeting in the absence of one, just like a commissioned officer, minus the salute but we don't see that as strictly adhered to either.

Additionally, "superior rank" can mean by pay grade, time in grade, time in service in the Army, time in service in the military, and age (oldest is more senior) depending on how far down the list you have to go to "break the tie" so to speak.

That all said, you will rarely see CSM/SGM, 1SG/MSG at parade rest for each other unless they did something real bad.

There are plenty of laws and policies that are rarely enforced. For example, it is illegal to hang an object from your vehicles rear view mirror. A person could go their whole life hanging stuff from their rear view mirrors and never getting cited for it, even after being pulled over, with the cop looking dead at the hanging object.

My point is that there is a reason why ( i.e. "spirit of the law") each policy is put in place and the one your referring to is to maintain good order and discipline. To push this policy when it is not necessary is highly frowned upon, even though it's not illegal, and shows a bit of immaturity and short sightedness in my opinion.

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Jun 24 at 2014 9:54 AM

2014-06-24T09:54:40-04:00

I am a MSG assigned to a HHC company and I stand at parade rest for the 1SG and 99.99% of the time, the 1SG tells me to instantly "to stop that" but I do it just to show the other Soldiers what right looks like and show when I get onto another NCO or Soldier for not doing, they know that I do it for the 1SG. It doesn't hurt me nor cause me any undue pressure or stress in my life. Now, I never required it for other MSG to do it for me when I was a 1SG, but I just feels it sets that standard for Soldiers to follow.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2014 5:09 PM

2014-08-02T17:09:14-04:00

Stand at parade rest. If you think you're too good to stand at parade rest for one of you're peers, then you have respect issues.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2014 4:41 AM

2014-09-19T04:41:37-04:00

If in the direct chain of command, they technically should. The 1SG and CSM positions are command positions and outweigh SGM/MSG positions by duty.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Oct 23 at 2014 2:27 AM

2014-10-23T02:27:48-04:00

MSG need not stand at Parade Rest for a 1SG, as they are of the same rank. Both the MSG and 1SG assume Parade Rest for either the SGM or CSM. Similarly, the SGM need not stand at Parade Rest for the CSM, though if it's the Bde or Div CSM we're talking about, Parade Rest probably wouldn't be a bad idea.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 8:38 PM

2014-10-23T20:38:26-04:00

FIRST SERGEANT AND MASTER SERGEANT: When you are talking about the first sergeant, you are talking about the lifeblood of the Army. There can be no substitute for this position or any questions of its importance. When first sergeants are exceptional, their units are exceptional, regardless of any other single personality involved. Perhaps their ranks insignia should be the keystone rather than the traditional one depicted here. It is the position of first sergeant in which almost all unit operations merge.

The first sergeant holds formations, instructs platoon sergeants the commander and assists in training all enlisted members. The first sergeants is proud of the unit and, understandably, wants others to be aware of the unit's success.

For the first time, the title of address for this grade is not sergeant. "first sergeant." There is a unique relationship of confidence and respect that exists between the first sergeant and the commander not found at another level within the Army.

The master sergeant serves as the principal NCO in staff elements at battalion and higher levels. Although not charged with the enormous leadership responsibilities of the first sergeant, the master sergeant is expected to dispatch leadership and other duties with the same professionalism and to achieve the same results as the first sergeant.

COMMAND SERGEANT MAJOR AND SERGEANT MAJOR: Enlisted soldiers who attain the distinction of being selected to be command sergeant major are the epitome of success in their chosen field, in this professional of arms. Except sergeant major of the Army, there is no higher grade of rank for enlisted soldiers, and there is no greater honor.

The command sergeant major carries out policies and standard of the performance, training, appearance and conduct of enlisted personnel. The command sergeant major advises and initiates recommendations to the commander and staff in matters pertaining to the local NCO support channel.

Perhaps slightly wiser and more experienced than the first sergeant, the command sergeant major is expected to function completely without supervision. Like the old sage of times past, the command sergeant major's counsel is expected to be calm, settled and unequivocally accurate, but with an energy and enthusiasm that never wanes, even in the worst of times.

Assignable to any billets in the Army, the command sergeants major is all those things, and more, of each of the preceding grades of rank.

The sergeant major is generally the key enlisted member of staff elements at levels than higher than battalion. The sergeant major's experience and ability are equal to that of the command sergeant major, but the sphere of influence regarding leadership is generally limited to those directly under his charge.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/nco_duties/duties-of-an-nco.shtml

BTW how did this get turned back towards the lt's saluting Lt's again?

Duties of an NCO (ArmyStudyGuide.com)

ArmyStudyGuide.com provide extensive information about Duties of an NCO (ArmyStudyGuide.com)

Response by MSG James Douglas made Oct 24 at 2014 3:13 AM

2014-10-24T03:13:20-04:00

Good question.....at times I have and at other times I haven't. There was never any form of disrespect implied or intended.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 3:44 AM

2014-10-24T03:44:23-04:00

a great CSM once told me, if i have to tell you to stand at parade rest, i may have failed. I am a MSG. The 1SG is not always the senior MSG in an HHC. in fact, most times, he isnt the senior MSG. He does hold that top position. but standing at parade rest to someone who is the same rank as you is unnecessary. when i first entered, the division CSM would make his BDE CSM stand at parade rest. in fact, this angry fella drop one of them for pushups in front of the airborne community. what do you think that did for his power base? this whole respect thing is great, but again, if you are so focused on salutes, and parade rest things, you just may miss a chance at being a real leader to those around you.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 10:59 AM

2014-10-24T10:59:04-04:00

There are a couple things that come to mind on this Sir, it could depend on if this is Active Duty, or National Guard, could depend on how long they have known each other, what each others background is, alot of NG units are incredibly relaxed, to the point where i have seen E-2's adressing E-6's by their first name, which is something that really bugs me, but as a specialist, nothing much i can do.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2014 12:22 PM

2014-10-27T12:22:27-04:00

I try to stand, maybe not always at parade rest, when I talk to anyone junior or senior. At worst my Airman get the respect they deserve and at best they learn from the example. No it doesn't HAVE to happen all the time but we are charged with setting the example and if you think it is necessary then show them the way.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2014 1:50 PM

2014-10-27T13:50:53-04:00

1LT Rosa--you always stretch our imaginations...consider the UCMJ concept of "actual rank" and the different types of authority (Command vs General Military) and difference in Rank and Grade. Actual rank is the highest rank you "actually" hold or once held, which may be paid or unpaid, and may affect one's authority and status. One's "actual" general military authority derives from that rank, and the effects of that authority are affected by the component (in on active duty...'now serving as xxxx') and in any case may be amplified or increased by an "Acting" rank capacity, and/or Frock or temporary promotion (rarely done these days other than Frock) which may also involve a Position.
Thus a POSITION or Acting or Temporary Rank may involve both GM Authority and COMMAND authority. We too often forget that every soldier has a level of General Military Authority over every soldier they "outrank" by "Actual" rank, and or time in grade or time in service--yes, it can be that picky.
Therefore, an acting SGT in basic training effectively has the COMMAND authority of a SGT for training purposes and under certain other conditions determined by policy. Of course, they are backed up by DIs, NCOs, 1SG and Company Commander as they are usually carrying out a specific order from them.
A CSM or a 1SG, by Position and "actual rank", could lawfully do as you propose.
Another example is a Captain who is a company commander has command authority--and might have officers who outrank him/her in a company formation. Tradition and policy usually exempts equiv or higher grades and ranks from formations, but not in all instances, such as deployments, etc.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Mar 27 at 2015 11:28 PM

2015-03-27T23:28:26-04:00

no same pay grade.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2015 8:13 AM

2015-03-28T08:13:14-04:00

Does a Specialist not stand at PARADE REST for a Corporal? They're the same rank, however, one is still superior to the other. So, my answer is yes!

Response by CW2(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2015 5:08 PM

2015-03-28T17:08:08-04:00

So here is another question..

My BN has a SFC in the position of OPS SGM. Of course our BN's 1SG's outrank said SFC but does he (by virtue of position) outrank them?(is "out-positioning" a thing...?) Afterall, an OPS SGM is responsible for ensuring the proper completion of taskings (and operations in general) as directed by the BC/BN CSM which has him directing/guiding 1SG's...so do the 1SG's stand at parade rest for the OPS SGM (SFC)?

DISCLAIMER: I obviously understand the rank structure and that no 1SG in their right mind is standing at parade rest for a SFC... I am simply posing this question to better understand others (more senior) points of view on a situation such as this. I feel this is relevant seeing as though there are others talking about MSGs standing at parade rest for 1SGs in an HHC, etc. Luckily the SFC and 1SG's are professional enough to make this topsy-turvy scenario work.

Response by CW4 Larry Curtis made Apr 8 at 2015 7:04 PM

2015-04-08T19:04:53-04:00

Are we really being serious here? This subject seems so inane to me. Now if the CSM gives the command to come to Parade Rest to subordinate senior NCOs, that's one thing...and if he establishes that it is what he expects from them in an official capacity that is another. And for this kind of thing to be expected between two people of equal pay grade just makes no sense at all. But really...this is nit-noy impertinent subject matter as far as I'm concerned. Now if that individual of equal or lesser rank happens to hold the CMH and he/she is wearing it, I'd better be rendering proper military honors and fire-off a salute to them, but that is the extent of it.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 1:27 PM

2015-09-10T13:27:08-04:00

Wow...you Army guys sure love standing at parade rest. I don't even stand at parade rest on the occasions I get to talk to a visiting general, and certainly not for people like the squadron commander or wing commander.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2015 9:06 PM

2015-09-18T21:06:00-04:00

The MSG/1SG and SGM/CSM is invalid really but they usually call each other by their first names anyhow, unless in a large setting. Lol.

The BN CSM should stand at parade rest for the BDE CSM as a sign of respect. You don't have to respect the person, but you had better respect their rank/position.

The CPL is an NCO and a SPC is not so that is also invalid even though the are the same rank.

A Butter Bar had better salute EVERYONE ABOVE HIM....HE BETTER SALUTE A CW4 OR CW5 if he gets too confused. Lol.

Here's one for the books....What do you think about a LTC answering to CPT and a SGM answering to a 1SG??? I saw this happen in FT POLK being assigned to the HHC USAG FLT DET and seeing the DET CDR (LTC) and DET NCOIC (SGM) answer to the HHC USAG CDR (CPT) and HHC USAG 1SG.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2016 1:04 PM

2016-03-02T13:04:40-05:00

yes this is propper the msg is the tech expert while the fsg is well the boss, was in a unit where msg was the highest rank, but i was fsg without the diamond, it happens especially in med units

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2016 12:14 PM

2016-03-10T12:14:19-05:00

due to a shortage of CPTs in my first unit, I was assigned as a Company CO as a 1LT. My XO was also a 1LT and I only had a couple of weeks TIG on him. Even though I was "the old man", I never even thought about insisting on him calling me "sir", saluting or any of that other protocol jazz. We were both 1LTs and I just happened to draw the short straw and get assigned to be CDR.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made May 17 at 2016 6:51 AM

2016-05-17T06:51:13-04:00

I was a 1SG of a Support company that had other E-8 and many E-7. I would never make them stand at parade rest for me except in formation when the whole formation was standing at parade rest due to mutual respect. As for authority, I could. They would sometimes choose to stand at Parade rest if I was giving instructions or task, but normally they took the same posture that I did. That my friends is mutual respect and not letting your rank or position go to your head.

Response by SSG Don Maggart made May 18 at 2016 8:33 PM

2016-05-18T20:33:39-04:00

It is the Position not the Personality @ Sir

Response by SFC Richard Giles made Aug 3 at 2016 10:55 PM

2016-08-03T22:55:42-04:00

I've read about 3/4 of the comments on this subject. Sure does read like a lot of you are reading the same manuals but your interpretations are different. Giving me a headache. I think it's safe to say that respect needs to be shown in public or around lower enlisted Soldiers but in private it's just people with the same rank. We don't need to make this any harder.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2016 6:30 AM

2016-11-06T06:30:32-05:00

Sir I am a MSG in a transportation company that also has a 1SG. As we are both professionals and understand rank structure this far into our careers, I do not stand at parade rest for the 1SG. I run everything operationally and he runs everything administratively. We have mutual respect for one another and neither dips into the others lanes. I would never work with another E8 if he/she expected me to stand at parade rest for him/her. Those are petty little power trip games in my opinion at that level.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2017 1:11 PM

2017-06-03T13:11:25-04:00

I may be a unique case but I ran into a ton of MSG with a huge chip on their shoulder demanding that they are addressed as Master Sergeant or Master ummmm No your addressed as Sergeant...

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Dec 20 at 2017 8:36 AM

2017-12-20T08:36:04-05:00

I call my 1SG by his first name. We are peers with different duties.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2017 8:52 AM

2017-12-20T08:52:00-05:00

While assigned to Fort Meade, we were attached to a unit that didn't have a 1SG position, but a detachment SGT position. We all were E7s, but you best believe that we were at parade rest when addressing him. He would normally tell us to relax, but we just didn't take it upon ourselves to now properly address him.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2019 9:23 AM

2019-08-28T09:23:49-04:00

Yes.
SGM is subordinate to a CSM, as MSG is subordinate to a 1SG. (CSM outranks a SGM, as 1SG outranks a MSG)
E-8 is NOT a grade, as E-9 is NOT a grade. (I know that's what you always heard, as did I, but that is incorrect.)
Rank is the order of precedence within the same grade. SGM and CSM are not the same grade. 1SG and MSG are not the same grade.
AR 600-200, 1-6, says 1LT, SFC, and CW2 are grades.
Table 1-1 shows rank in order of precedence. CSM is above SGM, and 1SG is above MSG.
Section III, Terms, states, "Grade. A step or degree in a graduated scale of office or rank that is established and designated as a grade by law or regulation. For example, second lieutenant (2LT), captain (CPT), sergeant first class (SFC), chief warrant officer two
(CW2) are grades."
It also states that Rank is "The order of precedence among members of the Armed Forces. Military rank among officers of the same grade or of equivalent grade is determined by comparing dates of rank. An officer whose date of rank is earlier that the date of rank of another officer of the same or equivalent grade is senior to that officer."
Table 1-2 lists comparable grades of rank. Note CSM and SGM, and 1SG and MSG.
2–19. "Precedence of relative grade, enlisted Soldiers. Among enlisted Soldiers of the same grade in active military service, to include retired enlisted Soldiers on active duty,
precedence or relative grade will be determined as follows—
a. According to date of rank."
"Date of rank. The date on which an officer or enlisted Soldier actually or constructively was appointed in a particular grade. The date will be calculated on the basis of criteria established in this regulation and is the first rule for determining relative seniority for officers and enlisted holding the same grade."
"Grade. A step or degree in a graduated scale of office or rank that is established and designated as a grade by law or regulation. For example, second lieutenant (2LT), captain (CPT), sergeant first class (SFC), chief warrant officer two
(CW2) are grades."

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Aug 28 at 2019 10:59 AM

2019-08-28T10:59:04-04:00

Sir, please stop trying to stir the pot again. When of the same rank, you look at duty position- a SGM is a staffer, a CSM is in charge of troops. A SPC is an E4, a CPL is a junior NCO with all the privileges as an NCO, The only time for a problem would be if both SPC and CPL were Team leaders.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2019 6:26 PM

2019-10-03T18:26:16-04:00

LoL
No

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Apr 20 at 2021 2:08 PM

2021-04-20T14:08:31-04:00

My opinion....the only time and place for a SNCO to stand at parade rest while speaking to another, higher ranking SNCO would be in a formation, duty changeover or other formal situation. If we are having a conversation or information is being exchanged, we are both professionals and the formality of standing at parade rest is unnecessary. It could actually hinder 2-way communication.
I'm sure some will disagree, but especially after I pinned on my second rocker, I only stood at parade rest or attention for my CO or in a formal setting.
I did once witness an epic MGYSGT vs. SGTMAJ argument that ended with the MPs being called. That was fun.