NCO Corps problems

2014-02-10T18:34:14-05:00

After reading many discussions on here and the responses to many I am ashamed that so many people feel the NCO Corps is failing.

Is the NCO Corps not the back bone of the Army? How about the fact that many of the people making these claims are part of the NCO Corps?

Here is what I propose. Get a copy of the NCO Creed read it and decide if you are actually living by the Creed of the Non Commissioned Officer. If it is broken we must fix it. The last line of the creed will solve many of the problems people have mentioned are broken or wrong.

"I will not compromise my integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget that we are professionals, noncommissioned officers, leaders!"

Sound off and let me know if I am way off base on this one.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Feb 10 at 2014 6:38 PM

2014-02-10T18:38:02-05:00

Being a former NCO (Army), as an officer I fully respect the NCO Corps. I do not let them off the hook for their duties....if it is NCO business, I make them deal with it. If they can not deal with it, I will then step in and handle it, but that is only as a last resort. NCO demands respect. The individual wearing the rank must EARN the respect with those about. If you perform as expected, you will ALWAYS have my respect.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 7:51 PM

2014-02-10T19:51:51-05:00

I will say this - just because we have an NCO Creed doesn't mean NCOs will follow it. I had those values long before I became an NCO.

Let's look at the real reason behind a issue plagued NCO Corps (my thoughts). The 2 biggest issues that come to mind are -

1) 13 years at war. We have focused on the war and less on garrison operations. That caused a lot of Soldiers to act a certain way and those Soldiers turned around and became Leaders.

2) Highly tweaked promotion system to accomodate the loss of Leaders at all levels. You can't lower the standard and expect the Leaders joining the ranks to "get it".

Now the kicker to both of these issues - We as NCOs have sat here and watched it happen and didn't do anything cause we had to focus on the wars. I believe if we get back into garrison operations and making Soldiers earn their rank we will see a mindset change over time.

Get rid of the CLI program - any NCO getting promoted on less than 50 promotion points really raises a red flag. I am not saying good NCOs didn't come out of the program but I bet the majority were substandard Soldiers not ready to be Leaders. That caused current Leaders to focus more on those Leaders instead of the collective group. The other piece to this puzzle is the NCOES system - make it mandatory to complete the school before you get promoted.

There is a different mindset when a Soldier works for their promotion or is just handed it.

My explanation should not be taken as the only issue but they are some of the major issues I see from my foxhole.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 10 at 2014 8:07 PM

2014-02-10T20:07:13-05:00

Remember, the first step in solving any issue is admitting there is one. Turning a blind eye is a good way to ensure that nothing ever gets done or fixed.

Response by SSG Saun Lehar made Jul 31 at 2014 6:58 PM

2014-07-31T18:58:59-04:00

Many of us did live the NCO creed and the Army values, however, when we see our peers not living up to those standards and do nothing to try and correct it, what happens then?

Junior soldiers listen to bad NCOs and turn into bad NCOs, that is the point I think that some people are trying to make, the NCO corps is weakening because there is not a push to make NCOs better, to make them take the responsibility that has been handed to them seriously.

I will say that because of the wars, we have seen a huge turnover of soldiers returning home and ETSing, many of them good NCOs because they get rode hard because leadership wants things done right the first time. You can oly ride your prized horse so long before even he quits.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2014 1:11 PM

2014-10-08T13:11:02-04:00

You are not off base. If anything you just hit an "inside the park homer" - touching all four (forgive the baseball analogy).

I have said this on RP to an E5 before and it bears repeating. If you see something that is substandard, it is our (NCOs) Duty and Responsibility to correct that deficiency. If we don't we create a new and lower standard.

That being said, we must also hold other NCOs to this standard as well.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2018 5:57 PM

2018-06-04T17:57:16-04:00

The day Army leadership implemented the new NCOER where NCO’s are ranked against one another based on their duty performance was the end of the NCO Corps. No longer do you see NCO’s actively policing up and helping out other NCO’s within their peer group to make them better. Why would you? They are no longer teammates, they are competition. No one actively speaks on it, but we all know it’s there.

A healthy alternative would be to go back to the old NCOER but add a special distinction in some form evaluation for those NCO’s who go above and beyond. That way you restore grade comrade and stay away from the toxic environment of the ‘good ole boys’ club. Cliques have always been in the service, but the agenda was different. People formed cliques because they had like interest. Now cliques are formed as an offensive strategy to gain get promoted in a competitive environment.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jun 5 at 2018 8:58 AM

2018-06-05T08:58:53-04:00

Actually a great idea- way to damn much PC floating around in the services these days. If telling the truth (even tactfully) hurts someone's feelings they need to grow up. Faults should be pointed out, and help given to fix them. We are leaders with folks lives in our hands, not kindergarten teachers.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2018 10:47 PM

2018-08-14T22:47:10-04:00

With respect comes responsibility that is all I have to say after 25 years.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2019 4:42 PM

2019-01-30T16:42:37-05:00

From my point of view based on my last duty station, and bare with me. I don't like to bash other leaders as that isn't very professional, but in the hopes of shedding light on the real issues, I think it needs to be said.

The NCO Corp is failing at least in my MOS: 19D. Soldiers are literally being handed a promotion because everyone in the unit is so miserable that everyone is getting out. Too many soldiers are being worn out too fast. Even when there is finally a slow pace in training, other NCOs were still keep there soldiers longer than necessary, typically to 1800 to "wait for notes". Those like me who let my guys go and said they'd simple text the notes (because that makes sense) take an ass chewing. We are stuck in a "If there's nothing to do, do some hip pocket training", which if its before 1500, check roger. This was an everyday occurrence though, and when other NCOs don't feel like putting in the work to make a GOOD class, the soldiers are either getting a half assed class, or you have only a couple NCOs teaching over and over again and become worn out.

Back to handing out promotions, we had a soldier who LITERALLY had the chain of command asking if we could get his IQ tested and discharge him on the premise of being mentally unfit. They told me that he was getting sent to the board just because he was the senior SPC and we desperately needed more NCOs, with no accomplishments and not a whole lot of potential. He was a great kid, don't get me wrong but you couldn't get him to understand how to tie his shoes. I told my chain of command that we should not be sending this soldier to the board. I got told, "tough shit, you're taking him". I told the soldier how I felt he was unready, but still did my best to set him up for success and spent long hours helping him study and learning the procedures. At the board, I was asked before he came in if I thought he was ready. I told them along the lines of "I've never seen a soldier who TRIES so hard to be the best soldier he can be and has some of the best motivation I have seen as a leader. I however feel that there is a lot more room for development. I don't feel like he has a good grasp of what he needs to accomplish himself, let alone other soldiers. I don't believe he is ready or fit to be a leader at this moment, however my leadership thinks he is ready." I got a lot of flack from my 1SG after saying that, but it was my honest opinion. He pretty much got instantly passed for promotion and currently is a Sergeant.

On top of this, its more of a failure overall of the soldiers who refuse to give 2 shits. Half of the soldiers coming in feel some sort of entitlement. They increasingly come to units without a sense of respect, customs and courtesies ect. Soldiers don't care to learn their job. We can fix a lot of them and help change this attitude, but there are a lot of soldiers in which you cant break the code. This does fall on us because at the end of the day, WE provide purpose, motivation and direction to accomplish the mission but you can't always force a horse to drink the water.

The soldiers I see with the most leadership tend to be toxic as well. These soldiers already have the will and drive but choose to use it to what they portray as "fighting for the boys" when they simply don't want to do something. They'll argue with other NCOs just to argue. I quickly squash this type of thing, but may other leaders do not. Many other leaders don't have a good reason as to why we "need" to get certain things done, because higher leaders just "want it done". This leads to a bigger lack of motivation. The problem is when these desperate promotion times come around, that's how toxic leaders are born. I don't enjoy saying that about my fellow NCOs because it feels unprofessional, but its the truth and a huge issue.

Lastly, the NCOER process. You have well to do NCOs who are all great at their job, but now you have to rate each one and I think its ignorant to say that personal preferences don't have a bit of influence here. I've seen many complaints of other leaders who work their butts off, and get rated lower than someone who doesn't put in any effort, but puts on a good show when it matters. Then everyone wonders why they stop working so hard when their peers are getting rated higher for doing much less.