NCOs, why are we identified by something that we are not? "Non" Commissioned Officers.

2013-10-27T10:55:01-04:00

Would you identify a black person as a non white or vice versa?  Most people would consider that offensive.  I think we should always identify things as what they are, not what they are not.Don't get me wrong I am proud of the NCO Corps and what we do, I just don't think much thought was given into our title.Wouldnt it sound silly to call us NonWARRENT Officers, or Non POLICE officers?  Thos are all true statements.  Why not just call us what we are?  Something like an Enlisted Officer?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 10:21 PM

2013-10-29T22:21:39-04:00

I have to agree. Why remind an outstanding Soldier and leader of what they are not? I remember a passionate article written by an Army Colonel (I can't find it on the net right now) about this same issue. The problem is that it has become part of our history and culture. I remember being in PLDC (now WLC) and the SGL telling us that Sergeant meant "servant" in Latin. I was outraged! Then he explained that the meaning has evolved to meaning Servant leader, one who serves his subordinates and cares for them. What are your thoughts on a new title? We also need to relook the whole "Sergeant" title for E-5 thru E-8. I think the Marines got it right, every NCO rank has a title and that title is said fully every time a Marine addresses that NCO.   I will admit that when I over hear an NCO saying "Damn Officers!" I like to remind them that they are officers too, they are just not commissioned. :~)

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Oct 29 at 2013 10:46 PM

2013-10-29T22:46:41-04:00

What is your suggestion for address, SSG Burns?

Response by SFC Ricardo Ruiz made Oct 29 at 2013 11:40 PM

2013-10-29T23:40:12-04:00

You have a point. Will do some research and I get back to this.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2013 12:43 AM

2013-10-30T00:43:55-04:00

Commissioned officers serve at the will of the president. They don't have an end date to their commitment. They have to ask for permission to terminate their service from the beginning. Noncommissioned officers have a contract that gives them an end date. The service and the Soldier are obligated to each other for a prescribed length of time. It is not a disqualifying term as if we are subpar or second class. It just speaks to the nature of the contract.

Response by SFC Charles S. made Oct 30 at 2013 1:15 AM

2013-10-30T01:15:37-04:00

There is probably nothing more to say about why do we still retain the name other than, It's remained because of tradition.  It began with the birth of the American Army in 1775 and remains today.  I don't believe anyone cared to look at it the way that you bring it forward because it was not important for soldiers to care what their duty position was called.  If the nature of the military has become one of tolerance and "how people feel" then yes, maybe it is time to re-designate the name that has been in place for over 238 years.  Serving for over 20 years.  I still look at it as a position of Honor and Being the Backbone of the Army, I'm Proud to be called a Non-Commissioned Officer.  This is Just MHO, and I'm no longer in the Active force.  Change is the spring of life and if it is where the Army is going, then so be it.

Response by SGT Thomas Sullivan made Oct 30 at 2013 12:44 PM

2013-10-30T12:44:16-04:00

Warrant officers are given a warrant for w1, cw2-5 they are given their commission if I am not mistaken

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2013 4:06 PM

2013-10-30T16:06:00-04:00

I believe that the term Non Commissioned Officer just means that you are a leader without getting commissioned. Commissioned and Non Commissioned Officers are both leaders in their own right. The difference is that a Commissioned officer has the right to punish you under the UCMJ and a Non Commissioned Officer has the right to punish you by counseling statment or other means "smoking session" as well to recommend you for UCMJ.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Oct 30 at 2013 5:38 PM

2013-10-30T17:38:37-04:00

Ok so maybe we all have a different understanding of what the word commission means. Commissioned means to be charged with a responsibility. We are all "charged" anyone heard of the NCO Charge? The difference is who charged us. What say you?

Response by CPT Mike M. made Oct 30 at 2013 5:47 PM

2013-10-30T17:47:02-04:00

Google defines officer as: a person holding a position of command or authority in the armed services, in the merchant marine, or on a passenger ship.

Sounds befitting of an NCO, right?

A commissioned officer receives their commission from a sovereign power, i.e. government officials.

We're both officers in that we have authority in the service, the only difference is that the President has put the trust in commissioned officers to Command units. Hope that helps a little bit.

Response by MAJ Joseph Parker made Nov 2 at 2013 3:09 PM

2013-11-02T15:09:14-04:00

Commissioned officers are commissioned to act in the name of the President of the United States and are approved by act of Congress for each rank. Non Commissioned Officers are not and the Secretary of their Service (Army, Navy, etc.) is the authority of their rank and responsibility. Warrant Officers are warranted to act as officers in their military specialty. That's all just a general legality. We are all officers and leaders and have a heavy responsibility to our mission, our people, our country, and to each other. Any officer; commissioned, noncommissioned, or warrant; who fails to respect another regardless of their rank is a fool and unworthy of whatever rank is on their collar/chest.

Response by SSG Jim Handy made Nov 6 at 2013 11:05 AM

2013-11-06T11:05:35-05:00

I think the term "non"-commissioned officer is more about what you are than what you are not. It is stating that in fact you ARE an officer. When you take the oath of enlistment there is a line in there about obeying the orders of the OFFICERS above me. That does not just mean commissioned officers, it means ALL officers, and that includes NCO's.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 9 at 2013 10:45 AM

2013-11-09T10:45:19-05:00

SFC Tyler, Im not sure why you are so much caught up on the oaths. It honestly has nothing to do with it and here's why. When you enlisted in the army what oath did you take? The exact same one you just posted above. Did you enlist as an NCO? Im sure you did not. You also did not take a different oath when you got promoted to the NCO ranks. You take the same oath every time since day 1. It has nothing to do with being an NCO, its about being enlisted.

To say that NCO's are not seen or were never seen as second class citizens is a flawed statement. Simply because its a completely subjective statement. You can't say what someone else's perception is not. I would submit to you that even today there are officers in this Army who do see enlisted personnel as a lower class, let alone in are history where nearly everything was about class. This is where the terms high class, middle class, and lower class originated from. We had and have a class system.

This is why officers are called gentlemen.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Nov 9 at 2013 4:05 PM

2013-11-09T16:05:26-05:00

Not sure where you were going with this SSG Burns, but you have a lot of valid comments on your question. I, personally, like MAJ Parker's response, but there is also a lot of other great comments.

As for me, a Noncommissioned is just that...without a commission. I have been a Noncommissioned Officer since I was laterally promoted to the rank of Corporal in 1994. With regards to your statement under your question posed, I identify that as what it is...a Noncommissioned Officer.

I am a Noncommissioned Officer, a leader of
Soldiers. As a noncommissioned officer, I realize that I am a member of a time
honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the Army".

Personally I believe that there was a lot of thought given to our title.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jan 26 at 2014 11:47 PM

2014-01-26T23:47:15-05:00

So what title would you use to refer to Officers that lack a commission?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 10:15 AM

2014-01-27T10:15:58-05:00

Without getting wrapped around the axle, I believe that it comes down to this: my rank is Staff Sergeant and because I have not received a proclamation from the POTUS acknowledging me as an Officer and a Gentleman, I am therefore a "Non" Commissioned Officer. I feel that this is pertinent because WE of the NCO Corps have worked very hard to ascend the ranks and therefore have EARNED the privilege to lead while other have had it bestowed upon them.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 11:49 AM

2014-01-27T11:49:08-05:00

I love when NCOs joke about Officers, and I just look at them and ask "What does the O in NCO stand for again". HAHAHA

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2014 3:22 AM

2014-03-18T03:22:43-04:00

After working with the German military and with numerous South American militaries I prefer the term Non-Commissioned Officer to:

Unteroffizier (German NCO, literal translation "Under Officer")

Suboficial (South American NCO, literal translation "Sub Officer" or "Under Officer")

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2014 2:46 PM

2014-04-01T14:46:47-04:00

I've always had a similar thought when it comes to the Navy E4-E6 (Petty Officers) and sometimes even the Chief Petty Officer, although they just usually go by Chief. I can't count how many times a civilian asked what I am in the Navy, just to hear them react "So Petty Officer means you're not good enough to be a REAL Officer?" Don't get me wrong, I'm damn proud to be a Petty Officer, but the title does seem a little degrading.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2014 3:09 PM

2014-04-01T15:09:39-04:00

I am confused as to why you think that we are not "Non" Comissioned Officers? I didn't go through comissioning, did you? Or are you saying that we are not officers? I remember older guys referring to NCOs as Noncoms...

Response by SSG Jim Handy made Apr 14 at 2014 9:08 AM

2014-04-14T09:08:44-04:00

I think the point you are missing is that the term is "Non-Commissioned", not "Non-Officer". The intent of the term is to say we are not commissioned, not that we are not officers.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 7:35 PM

2014-04-14T19:35:51-04:00

True story.... I had no idea what an NCO was until Rallypoint.

Granted.... the term "Pettyofficer" isn't much better.... petty this, petty that.... but.....

Response by SSG William Patton made Apr 14 at 2014 9:51 PM

2014-04-14T21:51:27-04:00

I look at it this way. Organizations have leadership that is quite often referred to as officers of the organization. The military is an organization that has leaders but makes the distinction between the leaders or officers of the organization, based upon education and meeting specific criteria necessary to earn a commission. You used the example of police and they are commissioned officers based upon the recommendations made by the appointing authority. To receive the commission police officers must meet educational and other criteria specific to their duties. The military commissions its officers in a similar fashion when they commission officers. However, there are other tiers of leadership in the military and these professionals have risen through the ranks and through education and experience have the title of officer, but without the commission. Commissions for military officers are good for life and as such, officers can be recalled to duty long after retirement. NCOs on the other hand cannot be recalled to duty unless specific circumstances occur and then there must be a change in the law, either through Congress or through executive orders by the POTUS. In reality, the name non-commissioned officer probably came about by someone referring to sergeants by that name way back when and it stuck. Just guessing as I do not have a clue. I know when I was on active duty, there were enlisted men with the rank of sergeant who had more education than the members of the officer corps that commanded us. I might add, he had more on the ball than some of the junior officers as well.

Response by SGT Alfred Cox made May 28 at 2014 2:02 AM

2014-05-28T02:02:03-04:00

WTF!!!! ...... Recite the Goddamn NCO creed.... end of statement.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made May 29 at 2014 4:02 PM

2014-05-29T16:02:33-04:00

In truth, I am not identified by my officer type status...or I wasn't when I was on Active Duty. I guess if someone cared enough they could suggest we be identified as Officer, without Commission or Warrant? OWC/W? This will probably be the case when the generation that got trophies for participation hit the ranks?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2015 12:33 PM

2015-01-29T12:33:17-05:00

Makes sense. It's like they couldn't think of a better word to designate for us, and it does sound OPPOSITE of an Officer. There should be no 'opposite'. We're on the same team, working for the same purpose. Our tasks are different, but are along the same parallels. So, yeah. Bad designation when you think about it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2015 3:23 PM

2015-03-31T15:23:20-04:00

Holy Enlisted Vote Down! Jesus. But I voted you up SSG Robert Burns so that you could start over. Now you are even!! YAY

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2015 3:30 PM

2015-06-22T15:30:09-04:00

MAJ Parker gives the legal distinctions of Commissioned, Warrant and NCOs. Regardless of the legal distinction, they are all professional soldiers (sailors, etc) and have leadership authority and responsibility. I am very proud of our military's NCOs! Perhaps better to say Sergeants Corps but then it wouldn't cover the Sea Services! You could also say the Navy/Coast Guard terms " Petty Officer" is demeaning because the word "petty" can have a negative association. Are we being petty to get hung up over semantics or not!? I don't know, but I currently can't think of another term other than what SSG Burns said "Enlisted Officer" (as opposed to commissioned officer), if someone want to suggest that or another term, send the suggestion up the chain. However in the meantime, I don't let those words taint the professionalism of our outstanding Sergeants and Petty Officers!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2018 9:59 PM

2018-07-02T21:59:15-04:00

When I first enlisted with the military I wondered the same thing. It didn't make sense to me. I also used to wonder why our military even has enlisted and commissioned ranks as two separate systems. I guess now a days I'm just used to things not really making sense. I just think that maybe once upon a time there was a reason for things to be the way they are. I'm not opposed to changes being made though.