No Hat, No Salute Areas...suggestion, mandatory, order, convenience? Which is it?

SSG Robert Burns — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 17:08:45 -0500

OK I almost got into it today but I exercised great restraint (you'd all be proud). Im in a course right now at a building where there apparently is a no hat, salute zone right before the entrance in a breeze way.<div>Now there is a sign that is about 12x12 inches 1 ft off the ground behind a bush that says this, and that is all it says.  That is not the entrance I came in, but it is the exit (where there is no sign posted).  </div><div>So Im walking out the door on the way to my car.  I put my hat on.  There's about 10 soldiers in PT's walking by me on the way in with their caps on.  Behind them is an SFC Drill.  Mind you there's a sever cold front coming in and the wind is blowing 20+mph with a windchill of about 19 right now.</div><div>He says to me "hey sergeant, this is a no hat no salute zone."  I'm range walking because I'm freezing and I say "ok, thank you."  And continue to move out briskly.  (not removing my hat)</div><div>Then from about 20 meters away he enters knife hand mode.  "HEY SGT! THATS NOT A SUGGESTION, THATS AN ORDER"  Now normally I engage in a conversation at this point but because I was freezing I took off the hat walked 5 more steps and put it on when I was back in real Army zone.</div><div>So my question is, in these areas is this an order?  I thought that these areas existed because they are high traffic areas where many officers are in and out and don't need to be saluting 300 times in and out of the building.  More of a convince thing.  I had no idea this was MANDATORY and that I MUST remove my head gear in these areas.</div><div>So what's the deal?</div>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2014 5:20 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 17:20:57 -0500

Not entirely sure, always saw it as an order other than a convenience.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 6 at 2014 5:30 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 17:30:07 -0500

I've always interpreted it as a "hey you don't have to wear your hat here" but I always thought that you could. It's not like you're inside the building.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 6 at 2014 5:33 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 17:33:41 -0500

Someone please find me a good answer here because I will not sleep tonight!!!

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 6 at 2014 5:41 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 17:41:44 -0500

At first I thought he was just trying to be nice like "hey man you don't have to wear your hat here." And I was like cool thanks, but it's freezing so I'm good. On two totally different pages apparently.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2014 6:11 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 18:11:30 -0500

The Air Force in Germany in the 80s was kind of relaxed and this despite all of the Headquarters like NATO, USAFE, the fighter wings, etc. But rather than be lax myself I regarded the honor that respect confers on everyone.

I will say this, I helped the Army out when it was cold. If the temperatures and wind chills were close, I would help out my infantry friends. I think sometimes people are so callous that they fail to be humane. I was respected by the NCOs and officers because I listen and then act appropriately.

I would have probably bit my tongue too, and I think you showed maturity and leadership by not escalating this event. Thanks for your service and dedication!!!

Response by CMC Robert Young made Jan 6 at 2014 6:41 PM

CMC Robert Young — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 18:41:56 -0500

No covers? No salutes? Madness, utter and complete madness....if we want to avoid saluting, we have to go around the building in the other direction from the officers like everybody else....A place where you don't have to salute....That's gold!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2014 7:01 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 19:01:01 -0500

I just want to take a moment and point out the fact that SSG Burns is publicly admitting to not knowing the answer to something.<br>

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 6 at 2014 10:21 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 22:21:15 -0500

I am really surprised no one has an answer for this. Leads me to believe that it is really just a convenience than an "order."

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Jan 6 at 2014 10:56 PM

SSG Laureano Pabon — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 22:56:25 -0500

If I'm reading this correctly, then yes it is an order.

If the order came from a senior ranking NCO or Officer.

A one way sign is not always a one way sign if the MP instruct you to go the other way.

Even in traffic during construction the one who holds the flag to instruct traffic is like a peace officer. The signs means nothing if they are going to be over ruled by someone of authority.

If a sign says go straight a head, and an NCO such as yourself SSG Burns instruct an E-5 Not to go straight, but to return back. but that E-5 fails and goes straight. BOOM!!!

He gets blown up. Why? because he didn't follow a lawful order, an order that came from you.

So if the Drill SGT out ranked you, he gave you just what he said a lawful order.

The same applies to you with your subordinates. If you tell them something joking around, it can be considered as a lawful order, even though no such regulations exists to back up that order you gave.

Response by SSG Luis Ortiz Rodriguez made Jan 6 at 2014 11:09 PM

SSG Luis Ortiz Rodriguez — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 23:09:07 -0500

He was trying to flex his drill muscles. Not sure if this answers your question. I Google a little bit and found a Pamphlet No 600-1 Personnel; specific for FT Sam Houston, it states that Installation Commander is the approval authority for no hat/no salute areas. I think that you were right. I hope this helps.<div><br></div><div>On AR 600-25 I only found this about saluting:</div><div>  i. Salutes are not required to be rendered or returned when the senior or subordinate, or both are—</div><div>(1) In civilian attire.</div><div>(2) Engaged in routine work if the salute would interfere.</div><div>(3) Carrying articles with both hands so occupied as to make saluting impracticable.</div><div>(4) Working as a member of a detail, or engaged in sports or social functions where saluting would present a safety</div><div>hazard.</div><div>(5) In public places such as theaters, churches, and in public conveyances.</div><div>(6) In the ranks of a formation.</div><div>1–6. Courtesies to the national flag and the national anthem of the United States <div><br></div></div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2014 11:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Jan 2014 23:18:38 -0500

I've always interpreted it as a suggestion. If it's below freezing, I'm donning my head gear. I also wouldnt tolerate another nco getting high and mighty after following a bunch of privates doing the same thing and not saying a word. Seems like his backbone is situational. Unless there is some wording on the sign like by the order of the xxx battalion commander, or to that effect, it's just a sign. Whos sign is it? FORSCOM? Garrison? The detachment co down the street? If it is official, it needs to be dressed up with a name or title like every restricted access area, like an arms room or an installation perimeter fence. A plastic placard or paper sign is not going to taken seriously.

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Jan 7 at 2014 5:53 AM

CSM Mike Maynard — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 05:53:39 -0500

SSG Burns, the reason you are having such a hard time rationalizing this or finding an answer is because it is "make believe" - there is no such thing.<div><br></div><div>I must have missed the part in the AR that explains that one of times I'm not required to salute is in a "no hat, no salute area". And no, this would not be "adding to the regulation", you would be "taking away" because the regulation explicitly covers when not to salute.</div><div><br></div><div>Additionally, what guides me to believe that I must interpret random signs as orders to obey?</div><div><br></div><div>As MCPO Young stated - this is complete and utter madness.</div><div><br></div><div>In fact, this was probably one of the first topics on the Duffel Blog.</div>

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 7 at 2014 5:43 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 17:43:21 -0500

Below is a picture to the entrance of this no man land. On the left hand side in the bushes you'll see the small sign. I also took a close up of the sign. Now tell me why on earth I should think to take my hat off when walking up here. Especially if Im walking down the right side.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2014 5:48 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 17:48:48 -0500

I would believe it is not an order. Just letting everyone know it is a high officer traffic area and that constant saluting isn't necessary.

Response by SFC John Brooks made Jan 7 at 2014 7:59 PM

SFC John Brooks — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 19:59:14 -0500

SSG Burns, you've got my curiosity with this one. We know the regulations covering saluting and I've done a ton of searching on the matter and other than individual post policies giving this authority to the post commander as SSG Rodriguez pointed out, I can find no doctrine about this. I work in the Pentagon, our central courtyard is the largest no hat, no salute area in the world. I vow to get to the bottom of this. If the SecDef says "Because I say so" that counts, right?

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Jan 7 at 2014 8:09 PM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Tue, 07 Jan 2014 20:09:24 -0500

Looking up saluting on the web, I saw mention of "when in area's that it is not appropriate." but nothing that specific stated there are "no salute" area's.

this though was an interesting read about saluting.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/customs_and_courtesies/about-saluting.shtml

About Saluting (ArmyStudyGuide.com)

ArmyStudyGuide.com provide extensive information about About Saluting (ArmyStudyGuide.com)

Response by MSG William Cunningham made Jan 8 at 2014 11:02 PM

MSG William Cunningham — Wed, 08 Jan 2014 23:02:01 -0500

I think y’all may be getting wrapped around the axle on this one.  I work there.  Do I always remove my headgear when going down the walkway?  No.  Sometimes I may have my hands full and don’t want to stop.  Sometimes my Army training refuses to allow me to take off my headgear while outside and I forget :)  <div><br></div><div>The drill is, well, a drill.  If you want some real entertainment, go to their DFAC.  But, that’s another subject.  BLUF:  Roger that Sergeant & move out.  It’s not that serious. (JMO & absolutely not regulation based)</div>

Response by SFC John Brooks made Jan 9 at 2014 2:16 PM

SFC John Brooks — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 14:16:56 -0500

Got it. The policy is implemented by the MACOM:

AR 600-25, 1-4 states:

b. Commanders of all major Army commands (MACOMs) will —

(1) Carefully review saluting policies for their installations. Commanders may develop and publish modified saluting policies for congested, high-density, or student living areas where saluting would be highly repetitious or otherwise infeasible.

So it will differ depending on the command implementing the policy.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 9 at 2014 6:23 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 18:23:59 -0500

What I think is ironic is it's a rule to break a rule, but you better not break that broken rule?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2014 10:05 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:05:01 -0500

These "zones" are constructed because of laziness. It probably started as a no salute zone and morphed into a no hat/no salute zone. I would inquire to the building occupants who installed the sign and the reason behind its purpose.

Saluting is a sign of respect and a long standing tradition. Saying you don't have to do it is just preposterous. We have no headgear zones in aviation but there is a purpose behind it. Zones like this are built because some building occupant sees saluting as a chore and wants a sign to allow them to walk to their car or around the building with no headgear.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2014 2:35 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:35:37 -0500

I think maybe you should understand why there is a "no hat, no salute" area at the SSI to begin with. I encountered the same thing when I was at the AMEDD Center & School at Fort Sam Houston. The bottom line is that like the AMEDDC&S, the SSI is a place that teaches junior officers attending AG and Finance Basic Officer Leadership Course (BOLC) and Captain's Career Course , and is not just the building that houses the Recruiting & Retention School. Reminder: According to Customs and Courtesies, not only is an enlisted servicemember of ANY branch required to render a salute when covered and outdoors but the Officer receiving the salute is required to return it!! The "No Hat, No Salute" policy keeps you from having to render a salute to every one of the hundreds of Officers also housed in that building as they traffic in and out of the SSI just like you do. NOW, that being said, you mention rushing briskly toward your car, if you saw an officer and they saw you and you were not under cover and out of range would you a) pick up the pace to avoid saluting or b) do what you are supposed to do and render the appropriate Customs and Courtesies because we are NCOs and we are supposed to enforce standards? So if the policy is "no hat no salute" it is: a) of benefit to you, b) of benefit to the student officers AND c) a policy, that we as NCOs should not gripe about complying with! It isn't even a hard right over and easy wrong Sergeant, it's just an easy right, HOOAH?! Oh and BTW PS Drill Sergeants and MPs who are wearing their pistol belts are considered "under arms" and not required to remove their covers indoors and under cover. Hope this helped.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2014 8:25 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Jan 2014 08:25:31 -0500

This is why I LOVE and will MISS the SOF world. You don't have to worry about the little petty stuff. By the way, SSG Burns that drill was insane. You can't yell at someone for wearing headgear outside. If it was in a regulation, you should have told him to show it to you. Drills find random reasons to yell at someone.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 11 at 2014 10:20 PM

SFC James Baber — Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:20:26 -0500

I think this is a good thread for those we are trying to get to join can see the substance of some things we discuss between us as current and former military, soft spoken as well as informational and mentoring types of postings.

We also have fun at times while remaining professional.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2014 10:04 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jan 2014 10:04:45 -0500

Perhaps there should be a sign as you exit the building as well. That way there is no confusion. Beware the "Do not enter" sign posted below the "exit" sign.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 12 at 2014 2:33 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:33:41 -0400

I called this disorderly conduct and threatening you with his hand. This what I call it as an MP but I know that is not the intent.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2014 2:37 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:37:43 -0400

The way my company enforces 'no hat, no salute' is it's reserved for our FMS and motor pool. It's a working environment so each soldier dresses to their comfort level. Personally, I wear my PC to keep the sun from my eyes, but not everyone does. If and when my PL comes around, salutes are generally not exchanged as we would have to stop what we are doing (turning wrenches, ground guiding) to render courtesies. But I've never 'officially' seen any memorandums or explicitly been told anything about 'no hat, no salute' policy.

Response by SSG(P) Auston Terry made Mar 17 at 2014 6:52 AM

SSG(P) Auston Terry — Mon, 17 Mar 2014 06:52:39 -0400

No hat/No salute zones are designated by MACOM commanders IAW AR 600-25. Those areas are primarily for safety: flight lines, railyards, etc. Within those boundaries wearing a hat is violation of a lawful order but there are some exceptions which I'm not sure are institutional or regulatory. My experience is solely in the bounds of the flight line where a watch/fleece cap is authorized in cold wx and an organizational ball cap (issued IAW AR 670-1) is also authorized.

Response by SGT David Dodge made May 12 at 2014 7:48 PM

SGT David Dodge — Mon, 12 May 2014 19:48:10 -0400

As a former Navy man I am used to the rule of thumb that you don't salute if you are not wearing a cover or in a formation. The first time I heard "Present Arms" given as a command to salute was during a change of command ceremony and did not know to salute till everyone else in the formation saluted.
That a SFC corrected you with so much enthusiasm indicates to me that he was protecting his turf. Probably a smoking area that he uses frequently.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2014 11:04 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:04:47 -0500

In the Air Force, the flight line is designated a "no hat, no salute" area, largely due to the hand signals used, and the danger of a hat being sucked down a jet intake. That said, you are perfectly legal to wear the cold weather fleece hat or the "Russian hat" on the flight line, because it is considered PPE.

I have never understood why some people feel the need to make others miserable for the sake of a regulation. the CSAF recently told us "if it's stupid, stop doing it...even if it's written down".

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2017 2:52 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Feb 2017 02:52:52 -0500

SSG Robert Burns amazing.....that is what they are.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2017 12:07 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jun 2017 00:07:43 -0400

There are situations where these signs and practices apply in a more logical way. Most individuals who have worked on or visited an active flightline will understand.

Response by PO3 Christopher Jonah Nelson made Jun 11 at 2017 12:24 AM

PO3 Christopher Jonah Nelson — Sun, 11 Jun 2017 00:24:55 -0400

SSG Robert Burns It's an order. No cover zones *might* be placed for convenience sometimes, but we had Marines coming in to our facility sometimes to file flight plans and we had to tell them that it's a no cover zone. It was a major safety issue because we were close to a runway and a cover with a bill and no metal device could damage an engine, a garrison cap or a cover with a metal device could destroy one.

As an E3, it can be nerve-wracking to have to go up to an E8/E9 and tell them they have to remove their cover, but that's part of what my job was. It was serious enough that if a candy wrapper or a sheet of paper blew out on to the taxiway or runway we would shut down the airfield until it could be retrieved, and we might have to do a FOD walkdown.

Whether or not they understood why, our visitor always removed their covers when I informed them it was a no cover zone, which I'm grateful for because I never had to deal with the difficult issue of having to remove someone from the area who outranked me.

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Jun 11 at 2017 12:39 AM

SGT Eric Knutson — Sun, 11 Jun 2017 00:39:03 -0400

Admitting that I am WAY out of date here (maybe), the only times I have heard of either was no hat / salute on the flight line (obvious dangers) and no salute in the field. There were several times where a LIMITED no hat / salute area occurred stipulating a specific time frame and circumstance. never more than a day that I recall, and no, I do not remember the reason stated.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jun 11 at 2017 10:18 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:18:14 -0400

Installation Commanders normally have some latitude in declaring no-hat no-salute zones. We have one at our local BX under a porch in front of all the entrances. Signs are posted conspicuously. I don't view it as mandatory and certainly not when cold weather would mitigate against not wearing a hat.

Response by Sgt Rick Easley made Jun 18 at 2017 1:55 AM

Sgt Rick Easley — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 01:55:08 -0400

We had alot of no hat no salute areas when i was in the AF but most were around the flightline for obvious reasons hats can get sucked into jets and way to many officers around with all the jet jockies you'd be saluting so much you'd never get anything done

Response by LCpl Victor Conway made Jun 19 at 2017 7:45 PM

LCpl Victor Conway — Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:45:18 -0400

Marines don't wear hats. They have covers.

Response by CPO Phil St.Onge made Nov 13 at 2019 11:16 PM

CPO Phil St.Onge — Wed, 13 Nov 2019 23:16:43 -0500

For one thing, it’s called a DAMN cover!!!
AF pukes are almost civilian but are part of the armed forces and need to get over it and act and sound like it —- and that goes for using the two year old’s phrase, “okey-dokey”