Should HS Diplomas or GEDs not be required to enter military service?

CPO Nate S. — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 13:42:32 -0500

A friend just shared that the service branch are expected to allow those without HS Diplomas or GEDs into military service. How wise is this?

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2024/01/26/navy-to-allow-those-without-high-school-diploma-or-ged-to-enlist/#

https://www.al.com/news/2022/06/army-drops-requirement-that-recruits-have-high-school-diplomas.html

So, we are welcoming people who are not committed to educating themselves so that our military is the most well educated and prepared to preserve, protect and defend this nation against all enemies?

In today's hyper-modern warfare space are the services branches willing to lower standards, just to meet recruiting goals, or should overall US policy change so that military service is part of the pride of national identity.

If some cannot read and comprehend well enough what they read to take the ASVAB in the first place what will this mean?

> US Army ASVAB - https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/asvab/asvab-and-army-jobs.html#

> US Marines ASVAB - https://www.marines.com/become-a-marine/requirements/general.html#

> US Navy ASVAB - https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/asvab-and-navy-mos-jobs.html#

> US Coast Guard ASVAB - https://www.operationmilitarykids.org/asvab-scores-for-coast-guard-jobs/

> US Air Force ASVAB - https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/asvab/asvab-and-air-force-jobs.html

> US Space Force ASVAB - https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/join-the-space-force#

While a number of the career paths in each of the service branches that are more technical will require higher ASVABS, what does this on other fronts such as fitness, wellness, and especially mental health?

Please share your opinions.

Error code: 404

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2024 2:39 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 14:39:52 -0500

I don't think this will be a rerun of McNamara's Folly from the 1960s. The aspect that they still have to score at least the minimum on the ASVAB is a good sign. Hell, in all my years in the Army, I have come across many a high school, and sometimes college graduates, that were dumber than a box of 3-legged tennis balls yet managed to get into the Service (all branches), be promoted and put in charge of things/people. I mean, it's not like they're going to right away be put in sensitive areas of responsibility without earning it.

Response by MSG Stan Hutchison made Jan 27 at 2024 5:12 PM

MSG Stan Hutchison — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 17:12:29 -0500

I do not think it a bad idea. I did not have a High School diploma when I joined, but took and passed the GED test while in Basic. It all depends on the individual.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jan 27 at 2024 5:38 PM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 17:38:02 -0500

As long as they get a high enough score on the ASVAB, the piece of paper is irrelevant.

I always come down to one thing. Can you do the J-O-B?

Your piece of paper tells me far less than your ASVAB. And your ASVAB tells me far less than your AIT graduation. Which tells me less than your performance once you get to your unit.

At each gateway, the servicemember must perform to at least a minimum standard. I care FAR less about the standards for the first gateway than I do about AIT and promotions standards.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2024 8:21 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Jan 2024 20:21:52 -0500

It's not a huge deal in my view, someone can still be competent enough for military tasks without it, generally speaking. And we do need new recruits, beggars can't be choosers.

Besides! They still have to pass basic training. And the upper brass aren't taking requirements out of basic training, right? Pfft, they would never!

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jan 28 at 2024 12:24 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sun, 28 Jan 2024 00:24:09 -0500

A high school degree or GED shows a person is able to complete given tasks. Of course, from what I have read or heard of many schools today, they don't mean much. Many graduate from high school, yet there is a high percentage of illiteracy in the graduates. So actually today, a high school diploma/GED doesn't have the meaning as it once did. So, what is the big deal to have a diploma if you can't read over 6th grade level, perform basic math, write, spell? But then this is our world today, everyone gets a "participation" trophy, you don't really need to do anything for a reward. I see it all the time on this site. Some posts are hard to figure out because of the spelling and grammar Good example: how many don't know if they should use "there, they're or their". What about "to, too, two" Should I expect that person to write an OPORD I can understand??
https://literacysmc.org/literacy-in-america/

Literacy in America

“Adult literacy can change everything: Health! Gender equality! Poverty! Every important social issue is impacted by low literacy! When individuals learn how to read, write, do basic math, a…

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 28 at 2024 9:39 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sun, 28 Jan 2024 09:39:24 -0500

Survey does not touch all the right buttons. Bottom line is not all people without degrees had a choice in attending HS. Many people lose a parent or both having to feed and house younger siblings. Others are not raised in a healthy environment with parents who don't care, are druggies, and or have medical and health issues, I could go on. There already exists an evaluation that tells the military what the aptitude of an individual is. I assure you this exams do not require a degree. I have had Soldiers throughout the years ace the ASVABand not have an education. Riddle me this, does someone need HS to pass the GED. Of course not, one is considered the equivalency.

I can bet that we could find Senior Enlisted leaders/advisors, Warrant 5s and General officers who entered services without HS.

So no, I don't think it hurts our country's national defense. They should be held to certain requirements, be able to pass an aptitude, obtain their GED within there first enlistment and before selection to E5 etc. the only reason for this is to show the will and drive to meets established military standard for continued service. Not to mention personal development. For future use post military.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2024 3:44 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Jan 2024 15:44:24 -0500

It's a lever that is pulled on and off when recruitment is desperate. I was originally trying to go for OCS, and was too old. So I enlisted, and I had a Masters Degree in hand. NOPE........... I had to provide my HS diploma (and a GED would have needed a waiver), and I had to provide transcripts and the actual diploma itself (quite a challenge for a 38 y/o).

It will swing back.

Response by SPC James Neidig made Jan 29 at 2024 2:31 AM

SPC James Neidig — Mon, 29 Jan 2024 02:31:30 -0500

I Joined The Marines in 1979 Without A HS Diploma,I Scored High Enough On The ASVAB To Be Able To Choose My MOS . I Got A GED While Serving .
If They Can Pass The ASVAB And Everything Else At MEPs They Should Be Allowed To Join.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jan 29 at 2024 2:30 PM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Mon, 29 Jan 2024 14:30:49 -0500

I personally don' think iti s a good idea. A high school diploma means a couple of things to me. 1.) You have a basic education on math, science, and english...when you join those things come in handy when you are reading a map, navigating, setting fire coordinates roundevouz points...etc. Don't have time to set up an additional training for basic educational skills...need a full up round ready for training when we get you. 2.) It shows a stick to type of mentality. You didn't quit, drop out, leave becasue of discipline problems or drugs...you showed that you can finish a task...may not have graduated with honors but you graduated.

If you do accept then don't allow promotion past a certain rank until education is achieved.

Just my opinion but I think it is important to not lower standards too much...when you lower standards you get lower standards from the start!

Response by Cpl Vic Burk made Jan 29 at 2024 3:05 PM

Cpl Vic Burk — Mon, 29 Jan 2024 15:05:47 -0500

Tough call. It should be considered on a case by case basis, not as a whole. I think in the military's view is the completion of high school means that you have stuck with it and maybe less likely to try to quit the military before your enlistment is up. Does that mean every person who joins that dropped out will be a quitter? Of course not. Those without a high school diploma or GED (but scored well enough on the ASVAB) should be allowed to serve. No diploma or GED, put them in a non technical position like the infantry, motor transport, etc. After they get their GED, let them take the ASVAB again to see if they qualify for a better MOS and make a lateral move to a more technical field.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jan 29 at 2024 3:37 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Mon, 29 Jan 2024 15:37:51 -0500

When I enlisted in 1982 they still took recruits without a HS Diploma or GED's, these guys were just got sent to Basic Skills Education Program (BSEP) before they turned them lose to BCT or OSUT. I served with a few while I was enlisted. They did their job.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2024 5:11 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Jan 2024 17:11:24 -0500

If they don't have a HS diploma or GED, they have to get a 50 on the ASVAB. The Navy apparently did this in 2000 - and federal law allows it.

Also doesn't mean they can get just any job either - they still would have to meet the qualifications for specific ratings.

I don't know how true this is but I've heard if you have a HS diploma or GED, you only have to score a 10 on ASVAB...but that's just what's going on social media sites.

I don't see the issue. Some people for whatever reason just had to drop out of high school or couldn't get a GED. Perhaps that should be part of their first term is getting a GED...idk.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2024 11:26 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Jan 2024 11:26:58 -0500

The most recent argument I've seen against this is the services will have enlistees that cannot properly express themselves because they don't know the difference between "there", "they're", and "their", or "to", "too", and "two." Really, I know college graduates that don't know the difference, either.

There are a number of challenges that keep someone from finishing high school or getting their GED. Those challenges are specific to each person, and it isn't necessarily about intelligence or will. Just because I graduated doesn't mean everyone can.

But there has to be an assumed baseline. A recruit has to arrive with a toolset that leadership can believe equips him or her with basic intelligence to get through AIT. The high school diploma or GED equivalent has always been that metric.

People can argue that their grandfather joined the Corps without a high school education and did fine. That might be true, but WWII was a different war. Things are different now than in the agrarian environment they might have grown up in. Hell, I could fly a P51 in 1942, I couldn't fly an F35 today.

If a recruit joins without that diploma, they'll be a one term soldier. Four and out. All of the branches are pushing college, so they need to push high school or the GED where appropriate.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Jan 30 at 2024 2:49 PM

MSG Thomas Currie — Tue, 30 Jan 2024 14:49:42 -0500

I have mixed feelings about this.

I would like to think that requiring a HS diploma or GED would ensure we get recruits who know the difference between PRECEDENT and PRESIDENT, but my experience with the last decade or so of high school graduates suggests that nearly 50% are unable to read at the "6th grade reading level" despite the fact that the RGL criteria have been re-normed downward repeatedly.

A high school diploma or GED does not indicate any meaningful level of education, although the GED is actually a more strenuous requirement than most high school diplomas.

On the other hand, the diploma or GED certificate does suggest that the individual was willing to stick it out to complete the program.

As others have suggested, the ASVAB is a better indicator of the individual's ability to absorb military training.

Considering that none of the military services are in any danger of being overwhelmed by excessive numbers of volunteers, I don't have any serious objection to lowering initial enlistment standards IF we are prepared (administratively and financially) to accept a higher attrition rate during initial entry training.

I would also suggest extending the authority for administrative discharge to release soldiers who simply "don't fit" during their first year of service. Such individuals should receive a General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions without veterans benefits.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Jan 30 at 2024 8:18 PM

GySgt Charles O'Connell — Tue, 30 Jan 2024 20:18:22 -0500

The requirement, having a HS diploma/GED, is a base line requirement, not a measure of an applicants intelligence. I'm sure we've all served with individuals that your first thought was, "How did this box of rocks get in???".

I would say that if this were a real shift in enlistment regulations, then in addition to getting a better than average score on the ASVAB, letters of recommendation, etc..., and would require higher HQ's waiver.

On the face of it though, I would have to say that it is not a good policy to adopt.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2024 8:53 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:53:32 -0500

As far as initial entry, as long as they score appropriately on the ASVAB to obtain an MOS I don't think it's a horrible idea to waive HS/GED. I would have it be stipulated as a requirement for reenlistment. That gives 3-5 years to take the steps in bettering oneself.

Response by SGT Scott M made Jan 31 at 2024 9:38 AM

SGT Scott M — Wed, 31 Jan 2024 09:38:44 -0500

No. Why lowering the bar?

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Jan 31 at 2024 10:05 AM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Wed, 31 Jan 2024 10:05:27 -0500

I would be more interested to why they do not have a diploma or GED than whether they have one. I turned 17 my junior year and might have considered dropping out to go active. If that person can pass the ASVAB to standards fine let them join however if they do not have those credentials because they were kicked out of HS, that is a different story. Many of our WWII generation did not finish HS because the family needed them working and that is another worthy candidate. Again more interested in the why not than the piece of paper.

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made Jan 31 at 2024 4:42 PM

CPL Sheila Lewis — Wed, 31 Jan 2024 16:42:35 -0500

What a question! Todays students are not held to the same standards as previous generations and that has to change. This change continues to require a HS Diploma or GED as it should be. These current generations, with their chrome books and other items, think everything is an easy "click." Our American Military needs to maintain high standards because our civilian counterparts do not. Do not lower the standards.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Feb 1 at 2024 12:42 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Thu, 01 Feb 2024 12:42:46 -0500

I don't know if it is a danger to National security but having a minimum standard isn't a bad thing. Getting a diploma or GED takes time but isn't an impossible task that should be considered an unrealistic goal or requirement. Many people on here complain about standards being dropped to be more inclusive and that is what this seems like to me.

Now if we want to address recruiting hurdles that is a different discussion but of all the issues we have I don't think it is rooted in GED/Diploma requirements being too tough to negotiate. I think public perception from the current administration is that not only when you have issues getting support asa Veteran but you will be left in the wind while on Active Duty as well. Pay disparities, food stamps, poor tactical decisions and beyond. All of this stuff is on social media in real time and the kids today see that and nope out figuring they will go elsewhere

Response by SFC Patrick Jones made Feb 3 at 2024 2:04 AM

SFC Patrick Jones — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 02:04:20 -0500

No, they should be. No question.

Response by Sgt Charles Riley made Feb 7 at 2024 6:19 PM

Sgt Charles Riley — Wed, 07 Feb 2024 18:19:14 -0500

I believe the word precedent should be used rather than president.

Response by AN Eric Lewis made Feb 7 at 2024 6:44 PM

AN Eric Lewis — Wed, 07 Feb 2024 18:44:30 -0500

I entered the Navy in 1986. The Navy allowed persons to enter without a high school diploma or GED at that time. The catch was you didn't leave boot until you completed your GED. This was an excellent program then and should be reinstated. It provided yet another quality training experience for sailors, and allowed for them to use their VA education program for trade school or college upon honorably discharging.

Response by LT Richard Mondak made Feb 7 at 2024 10:50 PM

LT Richard Mondak — Wed, 07 Feb 2024 22:50:28 -0500

The word is “precedent”, Shipmate.

Response by SMSgt Joseph Shinners made Feb 8 at 2024 2:00 PM

SMSgt Joseph Shinners — Thu, 08 Feb 2024 14:00:28 -0500

Require a HS diploma to risk your life for your country? Some jobs, maybe most jobs yes, but not all jobs. I liked the comment I read suggesting a HS Diploma equivalency after enlistment be required to progress past say E-4.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2024 9:28 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Feb 2024 09:28:30 -0500

We should recruit the homeless. Talk about 2nd chances.

Response by SSG Dale London made Feb 21 at 2024 7:42 PM

SSG Dale London — Wed, 21 Feb 2024 19:42:30 -0500

When I joined in 1980, I was a high school dropout, as were about 20% of my fellow recruits. Within 6 months, I had my GED. By the time I made sergeant, I was working on my Associates Degree. I also held a top secret (SCI) security clearance. Guess what... the security of the nation never suffered on my account.
Don't sell dropouts short. We have a lot to offer.
BTW - my GT score on the ASVAB was 110, and my DLAB score was 121.

Response by SPC Mitch Saret made Feb 28 at 2024 8:20 AM

SPC Mitch Saret — Wed, 28 Feb 2024 08:20:43 -0500

I don't think diplomas have anything do with what kind of "president" we will have. What kind of PRECEDENT it sets is another story.

Response by SrA Cecelia Eareckson made Feb 29 at 2024 8:50 PM

SrA Cecelia Eareckson — Thu, 29 Feb 2024 20:50:25 -0500

Depends on the branch.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Mar 7 at 2024 1:47 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Thu, 07 Mar 2024 13:47:45 -0500

I have an idea. The DoD can develop a 2 month academic program that would result in a GED. This program would screen out those who lack the ability to grasp basic concepts and those who have a tendency to give up easily. It could also provide the required basics (Math, Language, etc.,) to build on in further courses. If the applicant is already physically and mentally qualified they can enlist with an open contract to be placed in the MOS that is most needed.
Place defined incentives on continued education and build a better Service Member.
I realize many will see this as a social program, but if we are to meet the needed goals for recruitment we may need to figure out a way to grow our own.
And I just have to be an A hole.....
Precedent, not president.

Response by PO2 Rick Fox made Mar 25 at 2024 2:11 PM

PO2 Rick Fox — Mon, 25 Mar 2024 14:11:03 -0400

Can anyone explain what a dangerous president is other than the one now ? It appears someone didn't get their HS diploma nor a GED, read the poll. So my two cents worth here is, why does it even matter anymore ? From what I read daily, at least 80% of people who reply on social media platforms and possibly a higher percentage, use incorrect spelling and applications of common words and the entire military is no exception, tenured NCOs and commissioned alike. I graduated HS in 1976 and requirements were much different .

Response by PFC Clifford Kelley made Apr 2 at 2024 10:39 AM

PFC Clifford Kelley — Tue, 02 Apr 2024 10:39:06 -0400

I only went thru the 9th grade due to my father getting injured and needing to support the family. So I had to get a GED. I scored way higher than many a college graduates. As my father used to say education doesn't always equal intelligence! I know a guy who is a genius and has zero common sense!