Should military or civil service be required of all Americans and those who want to be Americans?

2014-10-02T11:31:51-04:00

I do apologize if this has been asked before. Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member replied to a different topic (about undocumented immigrants being allowed to join the military), and that reply prompted me to ask this question.

I am 100% FOR mandatory military service, with an allowance for those who cannot do military service, conscientious objectors, etc., that allows them to do some sort of public service (hospitals, schools, etc.) Germany has a similar program.

I submit that this sort of requirement has all sorts of benefits. One of the greatest benefits is giving something back to this great country in which we live.

What do you think? Should public/civic/military service be mandatory for everyone at a certain age (say, 18 or 24 months of service at some point, starting between the age of 18 and 21)?

Response by SGT Richard H. made Oct 2 at 2014 11:36 AM

2014-10-02T11:36:12-04:00

I'm on the fence on this. I see it as a good thing for society in general, but maybe not so good for the Military. As an all volunteer force, we still have people who don't want to be there, and look how much trouble they are.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2014 11:36 AM

2014-10-02T11:36:31-04:00

I think it's a great idea and a great way to get job training if you are out of high school and not sure about college.

Response by Sgt Jennifer Mohler made Oct 2 at 2014 11:38 AM

2014-10-02T11:38:49-04:00

I would say yes, with the exception of children. So long as the children perform commensurate with their peers in school, that should suffice.

Response by Cpl Peter Martuneac made Oct 2 at 2014 11:40 AM

2014-10-02T11:40:37-04:00

No. It would destroy the integrity of an all-volunteer force. Imagine serving in a platoon of Riflemen where only 1 in 5 wanted to be there. Not to mention, our government's propensity for war is already ridiculous, imagine if they had an entire military of conscripted citizens.

Response by SSG Jacob Wiley made Oct 2 at 2014 11:45 AM

2014-10-02T11:45:04-04:00

I voted no.

My rationale: I don't want someone here, that doesn't want to be here. Nor do I want a cop/firefighter/EMS worker etc. do perform that function because "they have to". The desire to do something produces far better performance and end result than simply being mandated to act.

The awesome thing about being free and living in America is that people have paid that price for us. Sure, we (current/former) have continued ensuring those freedoms by choice - and it's truly a great thing. Many times, especially lately, it's taken for granted and not appreciated. That's life, part of the game, unchangeable. Point is we folks, through a single four year contract or a retirement after 20 years, have done our part when others wouldn't. That in itself speaks volumes.

Now - should a candidate for President of the United States be required to have served honorably in the US Military - you're damn right he/she should.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Oct 2 at 2014 11:45 AM

2014-10-02T11:45:41-04:00

My first thought would be that to do this, you'd need to fully follow the Heinlein model in that citizenship is not automatic. There are NO natural born citizens. EVERYONE who wants to be citizen must apply for it. At that point, you can start mandating requirements for citizenship. You cannot get to that point when citizenship is conferred upon birth.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2014 11:47 AM

2014-10-02T11:47:40-04:00

I can think of a lot of folks that would benefit from that!

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2014 11:50 AM

2014-10-02T11:50:29-04:00

Robert Heinlein would be proud of us - assuming we ever actually do this.

Response by TSgt Mark Vaughn made Oct 2 at 2014 11:51 AM

2014-10-02T11:51:04-04:00

I have to remain neutral on this subject. While mandatory Service would be something to keep us along the lines of a lot of other Countries, it would defeat the whole "Voluntary Service" issue. It would degrade an already failing entry system and if individuals felt like they were forced to join it would degrade esprit de corps. I have always favored the idea but the older I get and the more frustrated I get with today's young society and their lack of work ethics and lack of pride in their country I hesitate to push for a mandatory service. Although eventually our Country (at least I believe they will), get tired of letting the government run their lives, and get really tired of the immediate self gratification that today's generation has and hopefully things will change back to a more united society where we go back to working to make America Strong again and not a group of individuals going about life as a citizen as individuals but working hard and making America what it once was.

Response by SFC Boots Attaway made Oct 2 at 2014 12:08 PM

2014-10-02T12:08:34-04:00

They do not have to serve in the military but they can do some type of civil service such as volunteering with a service organization or civic group. Helping to clean up a neighborhood or work on a farm.

Response by SFC William "Bill" Moore made Oct 2 at 2014 12:42 PM

2014-10-02T12:42:25-04:00

My Wife an I have discussed this many times. She is a Veteran and spent time in Germany, so she is all for it, 18-21 yrs old, for two years, period. My Idea is more along the same lines, but I would allow those that have the academic scores to postpone their entry until they have finished college. Everyone would have to serve two years between the ages of 18-25. In order to exempt yourself from immediately entering the service after High School, would entail high academic scores and enrollment into college. If you fail to attend college, your enlistment would begin immediately. This would give incentive for getting an education while in High School, even if a person does not meet the academic deferral, odds are they still have a good education.
As a recruiter, I can attest that anything which motivates kids to study would be worth it! I was tired of testing idiots that graduated from HS in the upper 10% of their class!
I might even go as far as allowing a deferral for those that have the aptitude and skill for continuing a trade school, but that may be pushing it.
However, a volunteer military has a much better mindset and motivation for getting any mission completed correctly.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2014 12:59 PM

2014-10-02T12:59:38-04:00

I think that this is a great idea. When I went to my promotion board, and my CSM asked me why I joined the Army, my response to him was "I wanted to give something back to the Country that has given me everything that I have, CSM." I think that there are so many people in this country who take for granted the liberties that we have and enjoy so much. I think that it would be beneficial for everyone to experience life, outside of their protected bubbles; and for everyone to give something back to our Country.

Response by SFC Rich Carey made Oct 2 at 2014 2:13 PM

2014-10-02T14:13:42-04:00

It would be a great way to serve your country, however we don't have the funds to pay everyone let alone to provide all the resources the additional force would need like food, shelter, healthcare and more. (Don't forget the cost of training)

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2014 3:41 PM

2014-10-02T15:41:26-04:00

I am strongly opposed to mandatory service. If enacted, I would resign my commission.

I don't understand people who want to force others to live life the way that they think is best for them.

Force is not freedom, if individuals won't voluntary join to fight a war it is not worth fighting.

The only way I would support any kind of mandatory service it would be some kind of unpaid training (a week or two). I wouldn't require attendance after the initial training.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Oct 2 at 2014 4:30 PM

2014-10-02T16:30:55-04:00

I voted yes, but I see a couple snags and possible modifications. Currently, we have the best military in the world.....all volunteer. If you make it mandatory, you will bring in all of the social ills also. Now, a slight modification would be that you are allowed to choose between civil service or military, without the requirement of allowances. If you want to do military you MUST meet the physical/mental requirements, but you have equal choice if you want to do civil service instead. I know Germany has a system similar to this, but do not know all the details. The USA had a system sort of similar... it was called the DRAFT, although there are some significant differences, there are also some similarities. There are pros and cons. It would have to be a well thought out program before I could completely buy off on it.

Response by Cpl Chris Rice made Oct 4 at 2014 11:56 PM

2014-10-04T23:56:38-04:00

The Active Duty U.S. Military is currently 1.5M strong, the Reserve components about 700K, giving the about 2.2M total. The U.S. Birth rate is currently 4M yearly, and most countries with compulsory service requirement use a 2 year system. This would quadruple the end strength of the U.S. Military, I like the idea in theory though is just would seem to be more expensive to house and feed this new giant military

Also while I loved the military, there is more to our society, and I feel the passion of service could be instilled with Americorps as an example. Not everybody is meant to serve their neighbors by carrying a weapon, and sometimes they would be better for our country in those respects; think about the Civilian Conservation Corps during the depression.

Response by CPO Graves Johnson made Oct 6 at 2014 8:18 AM

2014-10-06T08:18:13-04:00

Of course with a more extensive background check. We would not want to train future combatants. I would also be leery of non-citizens fighting for the U.S. since it is not their country so to speak would they feel the same sense of duty when things look bleak to keep fighting. But there is a case to be made for the non-citizen fighting to obtain a better way of life for their self and their family. Example the American Colonist. Numerous immigrants during the American Civil War fighting on both sides to prove their loyalty and to belong.

Response by COL Randall C. made Oct 6 at 2014 8:23 AM

2014-10-06T08:23:45-04:00

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member, I agree with your premise with a small twist. Mandatory service, but service in the military is one of the options (not the primary with those that can't going elsewhere). People want to discharge their service obligation by joining the military, volunteer with aid organizations like the American Red Cross, intern with any of the various public service related organizations, etc.

I am in complete agreement with LTC Paul Labrador's comment about the Heinlein model of citizenship (ala Starship Troopers ... the book, not the movie) being something that is earned, not given. Additionally, behavior theory shows that people that have to earn something value it a lot more than those that are simply given it. Ask PO2 Ed C. about his view on having had to earn his citizenship.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2014 9:11 AM

2014-10-06T09:11:01-04:00

I'm against that idea because being a country founded on freedom, you then can't turn around as a free nation and say you have to serve a mandatory term in the military. That takes away the freedom of choice and once you take that away you are no longer a free nation, you have now become a dictatorship.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 6 at 2014 9:50 AM

2014-10-06T09:50:29-04:00

I absolutely think that military/public service should be mandatory for everyone who is physically capable. And I mean everyone ... not just males. If females want totally equality, they should get it and not be exempt and allowed to pick and choose what to be equal in. Can't have it both ways.

Response by MAJ George Hamilton made Oct 6 at 2014 11:57 AM

2014-10-06T11:57:38-04:00

This is a dangerous road to go down, and steers away from being a free people. While the concept seems like it would do more harm then good, I would argue the opposite.

Forcing civil service from a population as large as ours would be difficult and most likely very unproductive. I think a better route would be to offer incentives to serve for 2 years right out of high school (i.e job placement services, college scholarships etc.) versus just forcing people into service.

Response by SGT Monica Tattrie made Oct 6 at 2014 12:21 PM

2014-10-06T12:21:00-04:00

I am not Pro Mandatory service, People who wear the uniform should be recognized as someone who serves with the Army values, whereas, if they were forced to serve they could actually be Negligence towards there job, duties and battle buddies. People who are forced to do something do not enjoy it there for could cause more distruction than good, therefore also causing more negative opinions in the public eye. Now, I am not stating that it could help many mature, learn discipline, respect or change because it possibly could.

Response by PO3 Jonathan Cooper made Oct 6 at 2014 12:56 PM

2014-10-06T12:56:22-04:00

A distant cousin did his time in Germany's military and had friends who did the civil serice route. He said it had it's benefits if you looked for them.

I think it will make you more aware of what happens at the political and governmental levels (Federal, State, Local). I definately see the capacity of degregation to an all-volunteer force military wise, however I also see people following passions during a time when most young men and women are still trying to figure out themselves and who they are as adults.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2014 2:38 PM

2014-10-06T14:38:50-04:00

I think a modified version of Heinlein would be in order, as I do not think we could support a full model.

The other issue to think about would be how would mandated conscription work in the replacement of a volunteer force. I would state that all conscription would be at the basic level and that only at time of reenlistment would greater/more diverse opportunities be available.

As well, I would add that higher education should be free but only after time was spent in mandatory federal/civil service.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2014 3:01 PM

2014-10-06T15:01:39-04:00

Mandating service is not something we want, especially as a democratic republic. If we want people to serve, we need to encourage that behavior. Top education centers should accept applicants with the desired experience, be it military service, AmeriCorps, PeaceCorps, EMS, Fire, Police, or volunteer/public service of another sort. Employers should also emphasize the same, hiring those with a broad experience of service before joining the heartbeat/workforce of America.

Response by CPT Kit Lancaster made Oct 6 at 2014 5:09 PM

2014-10-06T17:09:25-04:00

I think it would be great to have civil or military service for one or two years be mandatory (on paper). The reality of execution would most likely be insane. The biggest fan of keeping the armed forces voluntary ... is the Pentagon. They haven't had a great experience with the Draft and fight the notion when it comes up. There is good reason for this... just think of all the VA benefits people would get for serving a year or two. I'm not sure we could afford it.. we would have to cut benefits or create a class of military people with limited or no benefits.

Response by SPC Brian Aranda made Oct 6 at 2014 5:19 PM

2014-10-06T17:19:09-04:00

I voted yes, but with a modification. The first novel I ever read was Have Spacesuit, Will Travel. The second one was Starship Troopers and I recommend it as a must read for everyone (Don't just watch the movie, read the book.). Everyone should be required to do Basic Training/Boot Camp and you must graduate in order to be enfranchised to vote. After that, the choice is yours. You can go civil service, military, or whatever.
Much like SSG Jacob Wiley I wouldn't want someone in the military who didn't want to be there. We depend on our uniformed brethren to have our six, and I wouldn't want some idiot whose only concern is finding the next installment of whatever vice they happen to be involved with.

I know I was a little shit after high school, and Basic Training definitely changed my outlook. At the very least it would weed out those who just want to exist from those who want to actively make a difference.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2014 8:44 PM

2014-10-06T20:44:35-04:00

I don't see a problem with serving in the military or civil service. Be a good way to show their allegiance to their new country. Nothing wrong with giving and not just taking. With this requirement some may choose not to come here. It is our border our rules!

Response by SFC Jason Bautista made Oct 6 at 2014 11:25 PM

2014-10-06T23:25:48-04:00

I can't say I'm for or against mandatory service. I have been and worked in many countries with mandatory service militaries. What you usually get is a strong work force labor a substandard military and 90% of the time poor military tactical skills. I agree more should serve in the military, a public service or attend a secondary school. However, I believe incentive and personal choice far out weigh a mandatory service (or as some might call it a sentence).
I believe one way around this, is to possibly have a mandatory basic training and MOS training (of citizens choice). Afterward those deemed "fit for service" would remain in an inactive reserve status but with the choice remain inactive, volunteer for active reserves (one weekend a month, 2 weeks a year), or volunteer for active duty.
The inactive reserve force would only be called upon when a draft is activated. Since these are the people who really don't want to be in the military, they will only be called up for a mandatory service like the draft. Obviously upon a draft, those who are "inactive" (still physically able and of service age) would have to go through re-training (maybe even MOS change to fill needs) but at least they have already had some training. Its much faster and cheaper to re-train someone than to start from the beginning.
With this, the US can have/create a "mandatory service" but only those who volunteer (for incentive reasons, new found patriotism or whatever) will actually be part of the "active military components".
A volunteer military is the best functioning military, in my opinion.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 7 at 2014 7:20 AM

2014-10-07T07:20:53-04:00

Yes absolutely, citizenship in this country should come with a pay it forward cost. IMHO, 2 years of mandatory civil or military service for kids coming out of high school and/or college I believe would be a good thing.

Response by SGT Marvin "Dave" Bigham made Oct 7 at 2014 11:17 AM

2014-10-07T11:17:52-04:00

Personally, I like the idea as it will help each person see the need for the society to work together and how important others' job are, but we simply have too many "types". The US is not like a hive where almost anyone could fill in for another. The diversity in skill and intellect ranges so far from amazing to imperceptible from one citizen to the next. Although everyone has something to contribute, some won't or can't without more effort from others to show them how to use the skills they have. While many people can be likened to parts of a vehicle (wheels, wires, gears, even window have a regular use just sitting there), some folks are more like tow balls or even bumper stickers. They may be more of a distraction than useful part of the machine.
I think forcing the issue would work against the freedoms we wave in the face of the world. I say let those who can, do; and the others can simply step out of the way.

Response by SPC Larry Boutwell made Oct 7 at 2014 2:19 PM

2014-10-07T14:19:45-04:00

i feel that at lest for the position of presidency you should have to have prior military service... i mean come on.... COMMANDER and chief i feel that you need experience leading men (women too im just generalizing lol).

Response by A1C Daniel Carroll made Oct 30 at 2014 4:10 PM

2014-10-30T16:10:38-04:00

Honestly, I feel it would benefit the country in a tremendous way, but there are a lot of things that would have to take place in order for it to be successful. I grew up in a very strict household and with my father being a veteran of three wars, discipline was... instilled within my siblings and I. Many homes though do not have any discipline at all.

When I entered basic training I felt as if I had entered an elementary classroom environment. I was 19 at the time and many of my fellow trainees ranged between 17-22. There were some older also, but very few had ever had any responsibility or discipline in their life. Most felt it would be an honor to serve and give them the life experience, stability and discipline they knew was missing. They chose this path with all hopes of bettering themselves by serving.

Mandatory service could not be established in our society's current position. Parents have little or no control over their children; therefore discipline is completely out of the question. Discipline is no longer allowed in most educational settings: public, alternative or even private schools. Without discipline there is no responsibility due to lack of ways to hold a young person responsible for their actions or lack thereof.

I think it would be great, really I do. There is so much in our society that just isn't right for someone to be placed into that position though. A lot of change would have to occur and it would have to begin within the citizen's homes. That unfortunately will not be occurring any time soon. Requiring an alternate form of service may be an option, but I do not know what that option could be. Any form of service will require placing responsibility into someones hands. If that someone does not care about the responsibility placed on him/her; they will not perform that task in a manner required.

--
Please excuse me, I am aware writing is not my strongest quality.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2014 4:37 PM

2014-11-01T16:37:12-04:00

YES. Some form of national service including Peace Corps, Medical, Military, teaching, etc... should be required of everyone according to their physical and mental capabilities. Those who are incapable should be politicians.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2014 6:31 PM

2014-11-01T18:31:39-04:00

No because I don't want scofflaws in uniform. That's not pretty sometimes.

Response by SrA Marc Haynes made Nov 1 at 2014 11:54 PM

2014-11-01T23:54:12-04:00

I know this is not an answer to the core question and focuses more the immigration issue.

I have known many people that have go through the naturalization process to become citizens. It takes an incredibly long time. In my opinion to long..

Here is my idea. Give points for accomplishments. Points move you up the list faster. Examples would include:
- Fluency in speaking English 20 points.
-Fluency in written Emglish 15 points.
-Military service 100 points.
-Wounded in the line of duty 500 points.
-Permanent disability from military service 1000 points.

This a very shortened list. These are just a few examples and I am not trying to put a price on injuries or disabilities.

Negative points for each negative event:
-illegal entry into the U.S. -1000 points.
-Public assistance over 1 year
-25 points.
-varied point deduction levels for criminal conviction severity.

Just some thought.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Nov 2 at 2014 9:15 AM

2014-11-02T09:15:33-05:00

I think it is a great idea, furthermore i believe we should for the most part segregate the conscript force from the volunteers. the conscripts are not likely to contribute greatly to peace time missions and will require a different approach to discipline. keeping them separate will allow the standards of training to be kept, allow them to serve and not interfere with the moral and effectiveness of the normal troops.

Response by SPC Nicholas Cureton made Mar 9 at 2015 4:20 PM

2015-03-09T16:20:10-04:00

I had a friend when I was right out of High School that I helped out on occasion. He was Israeli and a Master Pastry Chef. In Israel it is required to serve in the Military in some form or another. He served as a cook, active duty for one year. I am not sure of all the requirements but I feel that with a lot of teens (my own included) floating in the sea of indecision it would be a way for some to receive on-the-job training and potentially like my friend Uzi (yep just like the gun) become involved in something they are passionate about.
I know there are some dumb kids who nobody would think could be soldiers, but lets say 3 months of Basic and AIT assignment to a duty station and transitioning maybe 8 months remain in the required service. Some of us who want and wanted to be in the service would love to pass the broom and mop to someone who is just there as a place holder. If nothing else it would potentially be a way of teaching the youth the importance of a trade, college, or if nothing else, a little bit of work ethic.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 6:53 PM

2015-03-09T18:53:36-04:00

I haven't changed my mind. I think what this country needs is more of a sense of duty, honor, country. And what better way to instill that sense than to require that each individual citizen give something back to the country.