Should PFCs stand at "Parade Rest" for a SPC?

2014-09-18T08:49:40-04:00

We had Lieutenants saluting each other, now I ask this: Should an E-3 stand at the position of parade rest for an E4 Specialist (not a corporal)?

FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.

I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?

What say you RP?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 8:50 AM

2014-09-18T08:50:25-04:00

I think that all E4 Specialists and below belong to the SPEC4 Mafia and therefore don't stand at parade rest for each other.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 8:56 AM

2014-09-18T08:56:22-04:00

You answered your own question!

"Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO"

A SPC is not an NCO!

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Sep 18 at 2014 9:06 AM

2014-09-18T09:06:09-04:00

For the love of Audie Murphy and everything right in this world, STOP THE MADNESS!!!

We all know a SPC is not an NCO so FM 7-21.13 does not apply.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Sep 18 at 2014 9:07 AM

2014-09-18T09:07:38-04:00

It blew my mind when I returned to Fort McClellan many years ago as a SPC and some Private in the PX scared the bejesus out of me snapping to parade rest to allow me to pass in the aisle! Was awesome, but freaked me out at the time. Hell as a CW5 I barely get a salute anymore.

This was the 80s of course!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 9:47 AM

2014-09-18T09:47:10-04:00

I voted. :D Where's my purple finger?

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 10:25 AM

2014-09-18T10:25:27-04:00

No. I think 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made the point: A Specialist is not an NCO.

Response by Sgt Jesse Bergeron made Sep 18 at 2014 11:03 AM

2014-09-18T11:03:47-04:00

The Marine in me is confused by an E4 not being an NCO. That aside, I think that it is professional courtesy to stand at parade rest when addressing someone of higher rank. I'm sure my outlook has a lot to do with how strict they were about it in the Marine Corps, we had E2s standing at parade rest for E3s.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Sep 18 at 2014 11:37 AM

2014-09-18T11:37:02-04:00

SERIOUSLY?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IysoB7L-y6Q

Charlton Heston - Omega Man - Oh My God

March is Charlton Heston in "Omega Man" month! Here is your clip of the day. Charlton Heston, Omega Man, 1971, Robert Neville, Boris Sagal, Richard Matheson,...

Response by CSM William Johnson made Sep 18 at 2014 11:54 AM

2014-09-18T11:54:12-04:00

I agree that a SPC is not an NCO, but when I came in the army many moons ago it was something we all did. I'm sure it depended on what unit you were assigned to I.E. 82d, 101st, Ranger BN. The SPC didn't go around telling junior Soldiers to get at parade rest, they just did it out of respect. I think it also depends on if the SPC is in a leadership position, not uncommon in combat arms...CW5 Baker, I apologize if you aren't treated the way you should, as a CW5 you definitely have my respect.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 12:33 PM

2014-09-18T12:33:37-04:00

If the 1SG wants it to happen, then so be it! NCOs better make it equal in each PLT and enforce the good training! To easy!!

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Sep 18 at 2014 12:43 PM

2014-09-18T12:43:47-04:00

This is silly. Everyone knows you salute a SPC first then you stand at parade rest......while your Squad Leader punches both of you in the throat.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 1:28 PM

2014-09-18T13:28:48-04:00

My spc told me to go to front leaning rest and then he says "at ese" and I stand at parade rest to adress him

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 1:33 PM

2014-09-18T13:33:42-04:00

I was a mentor for E-4 and below when i worked at my unit full time while i was a SPC. There was an PV2 that came in to bring in paperwork and snapped to parade rest for me and even though i told him not too he just said roger that specialist and kept on standing like that the entire 20 minutes we spoke. Hes out now and actually a good friend of mine and still we have a good laugh about it. Just a couple months before I was promoted I was in a leadership position because a SGT in my platoon was not attending Annual Training due to him ETSing soon. Everyone knew i was getting promoted and taking his spot anyway. Well my Platoon Sergeant was already calling me SGT and treating me as if i was one already and let the rest of the platoon know to do so also. I was fine with it mostly but i wouldnt let anyone stand at parade rest for me because I was still a SPC. Thats how I personally feel about it and never expected it until my promotion but I know some do it out of respect.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Sep 18 at 2014 1:34 PM

2014-09-18T13:34:54-04:00

Seems like someone was on the early train to toxic leadership. I don't think it is right, really I hate having positions to stand in to speak to people. Better you than me, because I just would never speak to him.

Response by 1SG Chris Brown made Sep 18 at 2014 2:06 PM

2014-09-18T14:06:04-04:00

I say about a million freaking times NO!! If you want an E3 standing at parade rest for an E4, go join the Marine Corps where Corporals are NCOs. Otherwise, unless the Specialist was laterally promoted to Corporal, they don't have any authority trying to lock up Privates.

Response by Cpl Chris Rice made Sep 18 at 2014 2:50 PM

2014-09-18T14:50:58-04:00

I am not into it, I was a LCpl with a deployment, and sometimes acted in a leadership role before I was promoted, and I kind of always saw myself as the Senior Fellow in a partnership with the others in my peer group rather than the Superior/Subordinate relationship; think more big brother, and less mommy or daddy. The way I see it Junior Enlisted have enough people to stand funny for, they need somebody with some wisdom, and without the formalities.

I’ll attribute the Lts to being well Lts and say they are probably just shaking off the rookie stupid still.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 6:41 PM

2014-09-18T18:41:37-04:00

I am all about LTs saluting and not about standing at Parade Rest for an SP4. I recall having to do that when a SP4 had a Ranger Tab but if not they were just a joe. I still call SP4 a full bird private. They out rank other privates but doesn't entitle them to the courtesy afforded to NCOs.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 6:46 PM

2014-09-18T18:46:42-04:00

If I recall correctly from my enlisted/NCO days, standing at parade rest was a courtesy afforded to NCOs who are senior in rank. Thusly, no I don't think a PFC should stand at parade rest for a SPC.

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Sep 18 at 2014 7:27 PM

2014-09-18T19:27:51-04:00

There is the letter of the law and the intent...

Response by SPC Randy Torgerson made Sep 18 at 2014 7:35 PM

2014-09-18T19:35:08-04:00

I don't believe a corporal is an NCO either. Both are E-4. I think that if your a squad leader and your with your squad then perhaps...... but your squad should stand at parade rest whom ever is in charge of the squad. Out side of that scenario E-4's and below shouldn't need to do anything other than respect each other.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 10:03 PM

2014-09-18T22:03:59-04:00

The Spc. still out ranks lower enlisted and should practice proper Custom and Courtesies. Reason I say this is because a specialist is starting to learn to be in a leadership position.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 11:24 PM

2014-09-18T23:24:54-04:00

I've had a SPC (P) tell me to stand at parade rest for him...
(We were both in leadership positions)

Needless to say I spent the rest of the week laughing every time we crossed paths.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Sep 18 at 2014 11:28 PM

2014-09-18T23:28:35-04:00

Yeah, only if 2LTs salute 1LTs.. damnit.. why did you have to think about that before me!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2014 6:13 PM

2014-09-19T18:13:10-04:00

A SPC is not an NCO, therefore no, a PFC should not be required to stand at Parade Rest for a SPC, however the PFC should stand at Parade Rest for a CPL. If a PFC chooses out of respect for the SPC's rank, then that's their own choice.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 20 at 2014 1:03 AM

2014-09-20T01:03:20-04:00

I always did.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2014 2:22 AM

2014-09-20T02:22:38-04:00

If a PFC stood at parade rest in front of me, my first instinct would be to mouth, "Who.Is.Behind.Me?"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2014 2:39 AM

2014-09-20T02:39:24-04:00

Should a SPC salute a 2LT?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2014 9:56 AM

2014-09-20T09:56:44-04:00

If that SPC is a team leader, then yes.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2014 2:33 PM

2014-09-20T14:33:20-04:00

No because the SPC is not an NCO.

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made Sep 21 at 2014 2:58 AM

2014-09-21T02:58:23-04:00

Maybe the 2 LT's were married and he salutes her at home, too?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2014 5:10 PM

2014-09-21T17:10:23-04:00

That Specialist was wrong. That he demanded this of PFCs on down only reflects why that Soldier was NOT an NCO.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2014 10:10 PM

2014-09-21T22:10:05-04:00

One more reason the Army needs to get rid of that dumb ass rank. You want to be an NCO, act like it and earn Corporal Stripes.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2014 11:21 PM

2014-09-21T23:21:49-04:00

i think as we move to a garrison army discipline is very important .. standing at parade rest should be mandatory for anyone who is one rank above you e.g. e-1 parade rest to an e-2 so on and so forth the reason is to keep junior enlisted as well as ncos in the habit of leading by example and enforcing the standard.. should an e-4 be adamant about getting and e-3 and below in parade rest... no. i am an e-4 and e-3 and below stand at parade rest for me purely out of respect of my character

Response by TSgt Terry Hudson made Sep 22 at 2014 12:28 AM

2014-09-22T00:28:15-04:00

If the SPC is just talking to the lower ranking member than no, but if that PFC did something stupid and the SPC got to him before an NCO did than yes. In the AF, if an A1C does something stupid a SrA can pull him/her to the side, ***WITH*** a SrA who has graduated ALS or an NCO present.

Response by SFC Josh Billingsley made Sep 22 at 2014 12:39 AM

2014-09-22T00:39:29-04:00

Why are we even having this debate? I know it's fun to argue about silly stuff from time to time, but the great thing about being in the Army is we have regulatory guidance for this kind of stuff. Your answer the, is no, we do not have privates stand at parade rest for specialist. If you were to look into the position of parade rest this position is used to address noncommissioned officers, or when a noncommissioned officer addresses another NCO of a higher rank. Just as I wouldn't ask a specialist to stand at attention for me, I don't expect a private to stand at parade rest for a specialist. Tell these soldiers to educate themselves and we wouldn't be having these problems.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 7:57 AM

2014-09-22T07:57:47-04:00

I say hell to the no. If that young E4 SPC wants someone to stand at parade rest for them then they should step up, find an NCO position to work in, and pin on CPL stripes. Can't have the perks of being an NCO without inheriting the responsibility of an NCO. On that note, I wholeheartedly believe the rank of SPC should be deleted from the Army. I believe that PFCs should have to go before a board to prove that they are ready for responsibility and once they prove themselves promote them to CPL and have them start taking charge. The rank of SPC just gives Soldiers a way to sham longer.

Response by SPC Eric Ziems made Sep 22 at 2014 10:46 AM

2014-09-22T10:46:21-04:00

I think you should only stand at parade rest for NCOs. You don't have to work for your e-4 it comes automatically with time in service. You shouldn't have to stand at parade rest for someone who really hasn't worked for their rank

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 12:57 PM

2014-09-22T12:57:35-04:00

That's just dumb maybe parade rest for a CPL but a SPC really?

Response by SGT Andrew Wright made Sep 22 at 2014 1:02 PM

2014-09-22T13:02:24-04:00

While I wasn't infantry I was in an infantry battalion 1/508 PIR and every time a PFC came to a SPC he stood at parade rest

Response by SPC Tim O'Reilly made Sep 22 at 2014 1:28 PM

2014-09-22T13:28:21-04:00

When the SPC is in a position of authority such as Fire Team Leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 2:07 PM

2014-09-22T14:07:39-04:00

Unless Specialist suddenly became an NCO rank while I wasn't looking, then no. If an E-4 wants an E-3 to stand at parade rest, it better be the Corporal type.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 2:38 PM

2014-09-22T14:38:59-04:00

I have heard people say that soldiers will stand at parade rest for soldiers of higher rank, but I have never seen any regulation specifying that any soldier will stand at parade rest for anyone other than NCOs. Sounds to me that this specialist was overstepping his bounds.

Response by Sgt Joshua Strain made Sep 22 at 2014 4:17 PM

2014-09-22T16:17:23-04:00

This is why Marines don't have "Specialist"

Response by CW4 William Van Almsick made Sep 22 at 2014 7:04 PM

2014-09-22T19:04:09-04:00

Many people have difficulty when given authority, whether it be authorized or wrongly perceived. Sometimes a friendly chat can help solve this, sometimes a swift kick in the ass, or, at the worst, some wall-to-wall counselling in the First Sergeant's office (yep, that one dates me).

In a lot of units, officers and NCO's can be pretty scarce at times so inexperienced SPC's tend to get away with this kind of thing because the officers and NCO's are off doing their other duties and no one is watching. From my experience in an aviation unit where you have 4 Commissioned Officers and 26 Warrant Officers hanging around, we were able to nip this in the bud with some friendly chats (plus being 6'5" and 230 lbs helped a little)

And we were also able to talk to the PFC's and SPC's when they were acting up with a new promoted NCO. It was all about finding the proper way to motivate someone to learn and asking, "How would you want to be treated?"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 7:43 PM

2014-09-22T19:43:23-04:00

It's kind of an unwritten rule I believe although a spc in my book is just a glorified private it should be a respect for rank where I grew up e-1 went to parade rest for e-2 and so on

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 9:45 PM

2014-09-22T21:45:32-04:00

would a private stand at parade rest for a PFC? Hell no.. then again if that specialist was getting ready to pin on SGT it might be a good idea because it may help your relationship after.

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Sep 23 at 2014 6:49 AM

2014-09-23T06:49:04-04:00

No. Sorry, I meant hell no.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 8:56 AM

2014-09-23T08:56:49-04:00

SPC is still a automatic rank that anyone can achieve just by being able to breath. Nobody should be standing at parade rest for a SPC.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 11:03 AM

2014-09-23T11:03:47-04:00

The guy sounds like a Tool First Class. His leadership needs to make sure he doesn't wear stripes until he understands that they don't mean anything if the person behind them is an ass.

Response by SPC John Gomez made Sep 23 at 2014 12:37 PM

2014-09-23T12:37:56-04:00

Yes i believe a private should stand at parade rest for a specialist. This comes with constraint. The private should only have to stand at parade rest for a specialist that has deployed. This will be a senior lower enlisted soldier with valuable knowledge in their field that privates will not know. I served in an Infantry company and this was the standard and I believe it also shows respect for a soldier that has deployed and been through the hardship. A non-deployed special is just a higher payed private to me.

Just my Opinion though

Response by Cpl Peter Martuneac made Sep 23 at 2014 1:37 PM

2014-09-23T13:37:27-04:00

Technically, only SNCO's rate parade rest when being spoken to, as explicitly outlined in the MCO on customs and courtesies. But if you're a junior Marine addressing any higher ranking Marine or a senior Lance Corporal with far more experience, you should stand at parade rest out of respect.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 3:05 PM

2014-09-23T15:05:01-04:00

Absolutely not. LTs should not be saluting one another and Specialist has not authority to be putting an E3 at parade rest. That's just someone being power hungry. That's just someone who needs a good ass chewing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 6:00 PM

2014-09-23T18:00:40-04:00

There was no way in hell I was going to stand at parade rest for a SPC when I was an E3 :-). They are so not an NCO. Sorry "high speed"! You're special, but not THAT special :-). The situation would have to be REALLY serious. Otherwise, show respect? Yes. Parade rest? For an NCO.

Response by SSG John Erny made Sep 23 at 2014 6:04 PM

2014-09-23T18:04:29-04:00

I have heard than in Ranger Bat that is the case, but for most units no, unless the E-4 is Cpl.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 6:52 PM

2014-09-23T18:52:55-04:00

They should be afforded courtesy from PFC, but the PFC should not have to stand at parade rest. You should however do it for NCO's whether they deserve it or not. You must respect the rank even if you don't respect the person.

Response by CW3 Clayton C. made Sep 23 at 2014 9:53 PM

2014-09-23T21:53:10-04:00

Only if that SPC is filling the role of an NCO. Like a Team Leader, Squad Leader, etc. Otherwise, no... it's not at all appropriate.

Response by CPT Mike M. made Sep 23 at 2014 10:29 PM

2014-09-23T22:29:10-04:00

I'd say no, however, if the Rally Point community is still leaning toward 2LT having to salute 1LT, there's no way you could avoid this as well. However, I'm still opposed to both.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2014 1:16 AM

2014-09-24T01:16:46-04:00

Well I answered wrong meant to say pump your brakes high speed

Response by SFC Michael Hanke made Sep 24 at 2014 1:46 AM

2014-09-24T01:46:25-04:00

Absolutely not, being an NCO is an honor, privilege, as well as years of hard work and selfless service. The rank of Specialist does not authorize the benefits of an NCO or the responsibility level. The full bird private should be a tool to weed out those that do not meet the standards of a non commissioned officer and clear a path for those that do.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2014 3:18 AM

2014-09-24T03:18:21-04:00

If the SPC is in a team leader spot yes the PFC should go to paraid rest when talking to him.

Response by SPC Barrett Tillison made Sep 24 at 2014 4:15 AM

2014-09-24T04:15:28-04:00

Well, we've already covered this, but I think people have missed one thing. you stated and I quote "FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed." Those last 3 words are a game changer! While I was in I had gotten chewed out by a SPC (I was an E-2 at the time) for not standing at parade rest. This perplexed me since I had NEVER needed to do so prior to this. Well some months went by, and I found myself doing something at the Infantry barracks. I was still in Uniform, and was making a pit-stop at a friends barracks room before going home. Walking through the halls privates were jumping out of the way, and whenever I would say something to one of them they were at parade rest and called me by rank....I was quite confused. But those last 3 words are what did it, they had been "otherwise directed". While it is NOT the norm, and chances are that it may remain a rare occurrence, it is not unlikely that there would be some places where they had been otherwise directed to do so. After all I know some units consider SPC a transitioning stage, and that they are in a position where they are not quite an NCO, but are distancing themselves a little bit from the other junior enlisted.

Response by LTC Mark Gavula made Sep 24 at 2014 11:44 AM

2014-09-24T11:44:15-04:00

In my 22 years of active duty service, I have never seen a PVT or PFC stand at parade rest while addressing a SPC. The FM is very clear but is only doctrine, and when does the US Army follow its own doctrine. Why do you think each CSM has their own interpretation of FM 22-5 during a change of command? Doctrine is a guide not a regulation. As an officer, I relied on the NCO's to keep me straight on customs and traditions, drill and ceremonies etc. What is the regulation that governs this customs and traditions and what does it state?

Response by SFC David Bogue made Sep 24 at 2014 4:48 PM

2014-09-24T16:48:39-04:00

Specialist are not NCOs. corporals are. Specialist should stand at parade rest for corporals, but no soldier should stand at parade rest for specialist.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2014 8:26 PM

2014-09-24T20:26:46-04:00

I believe they should stand at parade rest simply for the discipline that we seem to lack(atleast in the guard.) I constantly see soldiers not saluting officers and talking to NCO'S they have never met before like it don't matter, if the discipline starts in lower ranks we will have less issues in the future with all our soldiers, just my opinion though.

Response by SPC Stephen Bobchin made Sep 24 at 2014 9:30 PM

2014-09-24T21:30:54-04:00

All in all, I feel it depends on the position the SPC is in. As a general rule, I feel that no, PFCs should not be at parade rest for SPCs. However, if that SPC is in a leadership position, and is trying to get a military related point across (generally in correcting said PFC) then he should have every right to have them go to parade rest.

In regards to CPL, most units as I've seen do not utilize the CPL rank, and will in fact strip a CPL of his rank upon PCS. Those few units that do utilize it tend to only give CPL rank to someone who is promotable and simply waiting for E5 points instead of basing the decision on whether or not they are in a leadership position.

Response by SPC Cody McColgin made Sep 25 at 2014 12:07 AM

2014-09-25T00:07:24-04:00

No, unless a soldier is told to do so by leadership to do so. An Specialist is not an NCO. Caveot, if the Specialist is placed or has to assume any leadership position, yes proper military customs should be met to the position the soldier is "acting"

Response by SPC Joseph Walker made Sep 25 at 2014 10:03 AM

2014-09-25T10:03:08-04:00

There is absolutely no reason what so ever that should make a PFC stand at parade rest for a SPC. They are both automatic ranks, and as such are not required to be earned, other than by not being a PoS and having the time in. I had this conversation with a SPC who was waived into E-4, and as such, if you are not an NCO you do not have the authority nor the right to try to lock up people who are beneath you.

I really hope that this question was just a general question and not spurred on by witnessing it.

Response by SGT Neal Parker made Sep 25 at 2014 10:04 AM

2014-09-25T10:04:36-04:00

While that would do a lot for the SPC's ego, unfourtunatly the key word in the Reg. is NCO, a SPC isn't an NCO yet, so they don't warrant an at ease yet.

Response by Cpl Matthew Wall made Sep 25 at 2014 12:45 PM

2014-09-25T12:45:58-04:00

It really depends on what his status is. If he is a team leader then yes the PFC should be at parade rest. As an E-3 and being a Team Leader we had Privates and PFCs at parade rest.

Response by SGT Mitch McKinley made Sep 25 at 2014 1:04 PM

2014-09-25T13:04:20-04:00

Our unit armorer was an E-3. I was an E-4. He told me I could go f myself. I locked him up at parade rest and informed him that the correct response "go f yourself, Corporal."

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Sep 25 at 2014 5:06 PM

2014-09-25T17:06:05-04:00

FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed. A Specialist is not yet an NCO. Being addressed as an NCO, having a junior Soldier stand at parade rest, is earned through promotion to and induction into the NCO ranks.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 6:12 PM

2014-09-25T18:12:23-04:00

If a specialist want someone to stand at parade rest for him he needs to take the responsibilities of a corporal.

Response by Melissa Didericksen Didericksen made Sep 25 at 2014 8:34 PM

2014-09-25T20:34:54-04:00

Have they gone to pldc?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 9:59 PM

2014-09-25T21:59:43-04:00

We really need to stop trying to reincarnate the Lieutenants saluting one another question

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2014 8:04 AM

2014-09-26T08:04:13-04:00

If that specialist is promotable and in a leader position slotted for level 20 than yes. They are writing their counselings. Do you agree?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2014 9:46 AM

2014-09-26T09:46:30-04:00

Parade rest is a respect given to NCOs, not to specialists.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2014 9:56 AM

2014-09-26T09:56:10-04:00

My outlook on this situation is Respect. If the SPC was a true "Leader" then the Respect that he has earned from lower enlisted Soldiers would reflect in their actions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2014 5:33 PM

2014-09-26T17:33:46-04:00

FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.

There it is.....IN BLACK AND WHITE! A Specialist is not a NCO YET! Now if the Commander of that unit wants it that way then there has to be a Memorandum that has to be posted stating as such.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2014 11:59 AM

2014-09-29T11:59:08-04:00

When i graduated OSUT our DS told us to stand at parade rest for anyone that out ranked us and since i graduated as a E-1 that was everybody for me. That didnt last long as i was quickly told by everyone that i only needed to stand at parade rest for NCO's however, in my last unit if there was a Specialist in a team leader position it was expected and highly enforced that his or her team would stand at parade rest for them. If a NCO saw a private not standing at parade rest for a Specialist team leader it was a bad day for both of them. Anyone else have experience with this and is it right? I would think it is since they are a team leader but for a Specialist non team leader there is no need to stand at parade rest for them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2014 12:12 PM

2014-09-29T12:12:42-04:00

The last time I checked 4 trumps 3. A PFC standing at parade rest and addressing a SPC by rank with the proper courtesy and respect is the same as a SFC standing at parade rest for a CSM. Saying that a Soldier does not have to stand at parade rest for those that out-rank them is exactly what is wrong with this Army today. We as Senior NCOs and Leaders don't enforce these simple standards on our subordinates, but we get all pissy and butt-hurt when they get used to that mentality and don't stand at parade rest for us. If I ever saw a PFC talking back to SPC and disrespecting them I would light that Private up so fast it would make them cry. All these hypocrites piss and moan that there is no discipline among junior enlisted, but then turn around a promote an environment in which is it acceptable to disrespect those that are senior in rank to you. A SPC can be slotted as a Fire Team Leader in an Infantry Platoon, but Privates don't need to respect them as leaders?

I've read a few responses that say a SPC should earn CPL stripes if they want Privates to stand at Parade Rest for them. That goes right back to my previous argument that the Army should do away with SPC rank and promote from PFC to CPL. Teach Soldiers the grow up and be leaders from the very beginning and prove that you have what it takes to wear NCO stripes and that you have what it takes to lead and train Soldiers and future leaders!

Response by 1SG Mark Colomb made Sep 29 at 2014 1:04 PM

2014-09-29T13:04:23-04:00

By mere virtue of his/her SPC rank, No.

If, on the other hand the SPC is a team leader and the PFC is a member of his/her team then yes. Just like with the salute, you respect the position of leadership.

I would guess the SPC is waiting for the lateral appointment to CPL from the commander. If not, who set him/her up for failure?

Response by Cpl Matthew Wall made Sep 29 at 2014 1:37 PM

2014-09-29T13:37:59-04:00

I don't believe that you have to be a NCO for someone to stand at parade rest. If you are a team leader I expect my team to stand at parade rest when I talk to them. When I was an E-3 and a team leader they did it. As an E-4 they did it. I see no difference.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2014 9:38 AM

2014-10-03T09:38:52-04:00

I recently attended a drill weekend and ran across this situation. Some of my junior enlisted Soldiers were debating back and forth what was right. I informed them what it states in the FM (doctrine) and that we don't have any unit specific policy or directives. My explanation seemed to make sense to these troops, however, I still received some inquisitive looks.

Response by Cpl Tyler Miller made Oct 3 at 2014 5:42 PM

2014-10-03T17:42:22-04:00

I guess coming from the Marine Corps I view this very differently than our Army counterparts. As a Lance Corporal (e-3) with 1 deployment, I was a team leader, and as such all Junior enlisted (to include other Lance Corporals who were not in that position) would stand at parade rest. Maybe it was just my unit but it is how I was brought up and was even expected of them by our platoon command. It was never looked at as "im better than you" it was simply a show of respect and just one more way of instilling discipline.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Oct 22 at 2014 12:39 AM

2014-10-22T00:39:51-04:00

In some units, they implement this kind of policy sometimes. I had a company where they tried to do this....... it ended up not working... the career SPC's love that kind of stuff.

Response by SFC Dave Joslin made Oct 22 at 2014 9:17 PM

2014-10-22T21:17:05-04:00

As a SFC I stood at parade rest for my MSG or 1SG, why shouldn't they. It's about tradition, respect and self honor. Maybe we have just gotten away from that too much.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 2:40 AM

2014-10-26T02:40:45-04:00

The answer is simply found in the question, "FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed." A SPC is not an NCO, thus does not require parade rest.

As a SPC, I would not want PFC and below standing at parade rest for me, as I have not yet earned that show of respect that comes with being an NCO.

On a side note, since we are on the topic of the SPC, a buddy of mine sent this to me. I hope you enjoy it...

The Specialist Creed
No one gets away with more than I. I am a non Non-Commissioned Officer, a beast of burden. As a junior enlisted soldier I realize that I am a member of an under appreciated, much chastised group of soldiers which is known as the ribcage, or perhaps pancreas, of the Army.

I am proud of myself and my fellow Specialists and will continue to bitch, whine and sham until the absolute last second regardless of the mission at hand. I will use my grade and position to avoid responsibility, accountability and any sense of presence of mind.

Ignorance is my watchword. My two best excuses will always be on the tip of my tongue “I didn’t know,” and “It wasn’t me.” I will strive to remain invisible and unavailable for details. Never ever volunteer for anything is my rallying cry.
I am aware of my role as a SPC and if you need me for anything, I’ll be on appointment.

I know the other soldiers, and I will always refer to them by their first name or in some cases derogatory nickname. On weekends, or days off I will consistently drink myself into oblivion, and I will never answer my phone. I understand that for a person in my hierarchal position, rewards are going to be few and far between, and punishment will always be swift and severe.

Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties, because I will be accomplishing them for them. I will kiss up to their face and badmouth them behind their back, just like everyone else. I will be loyal to those with home I serve, provided there’s something in it for me.

I am the last bastion of common sense that stands between me and the Army philosophy of “Work Harder, Not Smarter.” My voice is a tool and my complaints are a weapon that I wield with unmatched skill and finesse. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget, Specialist is the greatest rank in the Army and rank has its privileges.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2014 1:58 PM

2014-10-27T13:58:04-04:00

You Army guys really enjoy standing at parade rest. I don't even stand at parade rest when I talk to the wing commander.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Oct 28 at 2014 3:37 PM

2014-10-28T15:37:42-04:00

OMG! Sounds like a bunch of horse hooey to me. I did my time in the Navy and got to be a very senior E6 before calling it quits. It sucks when you stand there in your dress blues and look down the line and see that besides the Master Chief of the Command and the Senior Chief, you are the only one with gold on your sleeve. Means all those Chiefs had less time in the Navy then I did. As we used to say "I have skivvies that have been in the Navy longer than you".

Ooops The old sailor with the sea stories is emerging. I never stood at parade rest for anybody lower than an officer unless we were in a formation and were called to attention or some such by at least a Chief.

I also rarely got on a junior person's case for slouching around. Unless that was the problem. And yet somehow, as the senior E6 on board, I was getting stuff done and getting the lazy ass other E6s in line. "Hey, buddy, I know a GREAT bilge that needs scrubbing with a toothbrush" :D

So I don't think enlisted stand at parade rest while talking to a senior enlisted. Gawd the power trips are too big already. Of course on a submarine it was very much "I know where you sleep" kind of atmosphere.

Okay, no sailor goes without a sea story. One day an E-2 was having a really shitty day. He was mess cranking (working in the galley as a slave) and the idiot senior cook was just on his case. I went in to just get a cup of bug juice and he started yelling at me about making a mess. (not) I just stood there and let him rant and rave. When he took a breath I asked "You feel better now?" I then had him continue with his duties with just the smallest discussion of respect for senior petty officers. Then a chief pulls me into the goat locker (Chief's lounge). He told me I would never make chief if I didn't yell and scream at people. Wow. Told him if he was an example of being a chief I didn't want to be one. At that time I was more qualified than him, had 2 more years in than him, and my division of Electricians was doing far better work than his bunch. I, to this day, don't know why I never made Chief. lol Oh and I had to put him on report for assault not long after that when he jammed a donut in a junior enlisted man's face and I was the duty chief. Broke my heart. But he got off with a slap on the wrist.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Oct 29 at 2014 9:01 AM

2014-10-29T09:01:00-04:00

I abstain from voting. I know what the reg says... but each unit is like its own microcosm. In some units, a SPC is just a troop that gets to be the not-NCOIC of a BS detail. In other units, a SPC is often times a team leader and many of them are just waiting on points in order to get promoted. I've been in units where you at least stood at ease for talking to anyone of a higher rank, and I've been in units where half the time when an officer wasn't around, Sergeants said "call me Joe".

I'm sure you've all seen (or been) that soldier that shows up to a unit and the guys who've been there for a while think "man this guy's a real hard-ass" because that person is adhering to standards that were stricter in another unit. My approach on showing up to a new unit has always been "Remember your bearing and when in doubt, stick to the reg. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut and try to blend in. Do what everyone else is doing."

Response by SFC Melker Johansson made Oct 29 at 2014 8:34 PM

2014-10-29T20:34:26-04:00

Only if it is a PFC (P). ;-)

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Oct 29 at 2014 11:18 PM

2014-10-29T23:18:20-04:00

If they are the PFCIC, by all means. :o)

I've seen where an armorer and medic both, who due to prior to service experience were considered SMEs. As a result, some SSGs would insist that detail personnel (E1-E4) stand at parade rest when asking for guidance on the tasking.
Appropriate... hard to say.

Response by SSG Andrew Dydasco made Oct 31 at 2014 2:48 AM

2014-10-31T02:48:50-04:00

I could understand where CW2 Evans is coming from. Authority by position, rather than rank. But overall I don't see how this would be helpful at all... You give the PFC a false sense of authority over his/her "subordinate."

Response by PFC Zanie Young made Oct 31 at 2014 5:25 PM

2014-10-31T17:25:56-04:00

Specialists are not NCOs, therefore, PFCs only stand at parade rest before CPLs and above. I never stood at parade rest in front of any specialist while I was in nor I was required to.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2014 6:04 AM

2014-11-01T06:04:08-04:00

So today i had a soldier that came up to saying i had to stand a parade rest for a specialist Team Leader and when i told them that in FM 7-21.13 chapter 4 it states NCO's was i wrong for pulling the FM on this team leader and PFC Yes or NO and why???

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Nov 2 at 2014 8:59 AM

2014-11-02T08:59:13-05:00

I never forced any PFCs to stand at parade rest to talk to me. However, I remember a 1SG telling a PFC he was supposed to do so and then yelling at me for not enforcing it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2014 5:56 PM

2014-11-24T17:56:09-05:00

Hell no... A Spc is not I am authority position, but at the same time a Spc can drop a Pvt. as long as they do the PT with them. Potato pototo

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2015 10:04 AM

2015-01-01T10:04:30-05:00

I guess some in some infantry units, that's the standard. I got approached by an infantry PFC downrange. He was simply asking me directions to the latrines. When calls me up, he simply says "excuse me Specialist" and snaps to parade rest and proceeds to ask me for directions. It threw me completely off guard. I thought he was joking at first but he was dead serious! So after quickly answering his question, I had to ask him why the hell was he at parade rest for a SPC, I'm not an NCO. His answer was that in his unit, they had to go to parade rest for anyone who outranked you, regardless of being NCO or junior enlisted.

Response by SSG John M. made Jan 1 at 2015 10:26 AM

2015-01-01T10:26:28-05:00

You Dare Cross the E-4 Mafia?

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Jan 1 at 2015 10:45 AM

2015-01-01T10:45:14-05:00

SPC =/= CPL, so SPC =/= NCO, so there is not a requirement per the regs.

You're just trying to do an NCO version of the good 1LT's saluting thread.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2015 12:50 PM

2015-01-01T12:50:38-05:00

We had a private E-2 in my unit disrespect and refuse to follow orders and my PSG instituted a rule of standing at parade rest for any one of higher rank than you. It was put into place to teach said SM a lesson but to me it has only turned into a joke amongsts those of lower rank and it embarrases the specialists because the get made fun of by the rest of the unit. As a caviat I believe standing at parade rest ruins comradeship and can hurt unit integrity. If I'm being addressed by someone in a position of authority who is currently using that authority of course I will show the proper respect by standing at parade rest. If I'm always at parade rest for you though. It makes any conversation awkward in my opinion.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Jan 1 at 2015 3:01 PM

2015-01-01T15:01:30-05:00

What is even more ridiculous than this, is when you have two specialists whining about who is 'more senior'. You know what is really, really ridiculous? When they put a junior enlisted Soldier in a leadership position and that individual decides that they no longer need to do any work. I chew my fellow junior enlisted Soldiers asses for this almost daily. I work just as hard as I require my Soldiers to work, heck, I am probably to easy on them....but that is my style.

Response by MSgt Bj Jones made Jan 1 at 2015 3:11 PM

2015-01-01T15:11:15-05:00

No. I think Specialists should be content with the salutes they receive from us poor eye-sighted Air Force types who see insignia on hats and automatically salute. ;)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 4:04 PM

2015-01-10T16:04:38-05:00

Where is that Specialist creed at! Diiferent units do different things. In the infantry world i have heard of E-fuzzies standing at parade rest by Pfc's. Aviation on the other hand it rarely happens at all. It should come to position within the Coc. If the specialist is a squad leader then they are in an Nco's role and should be rendered the customs and courtesy.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Jan 29 at 2015 5:07 PM

2015-01-29T17:07:35-05:00

Slow your roll high speed

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2015 5:13 PM

2015-01-29T17:13:26-05:00

God help us.
C'mon. I mean, does this pass the smell test at all?
This is up there with those emails you get from the Treasury Minister of Zamunda who wants you to send him 5k in American funds for which he will handsomely return you 350k of American funds.

In order words, this is some BU11$H!T.

And E-3 should not stand at parade rest for an E-4.

Response by SGT Allen D'Aoust made Mar 5 at 2015 9:39 AM

2015-03-05T09:39:36-05:00

Well back in 1984, we were required to stand at parade rest for all Tabbed E-4 or newly Tabbed E-3, if you did not all hell would rain upon you. If the E-4 was not Tabbed then I feel lower enlisted personnel should not stand at parade rest for the E-4, they are just a regular JOE.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 10:33 AM

2015-03-05T10:33:55-05:00

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 5 at 2015 11:06 AM

2015-03-05T11:06:40-05:00

If that SPC/E4 is in a leadership position such as a TML, by all means, that PVT - PFC needs to be in parade rest. This is also good also if the SPC is on a promotion path to SGT.

Response by GySgt Joe Strong made Mar 5 at 2015 11:27 AM

2015-03-05T11:27:12-05:00

I realize the Corps is a little different (why is it I say that a lot on RP?).
And, Yes, I am aware of the Specialist /Corporal divide in the Army.

But having been an E-4 I would have thought it a little ridiculous to call an individual E-3 to attention or expect them to pop to just because I was talking to them.

Now, I did expect to have their attention but the POA just for a conversation, seems crazy to me.
But, if there were some kind of infraction, especially one challenging the authority of the Rank might change the situation a little as one needs to do the correction and ensure they know they are being corrected and the issue is a little bit serious. Or if we were preparing to Drill....

But E-3's popping to because an E-4 walks in the room? I am somewhat incredulous at the question.

Frankly, even as an E-7 I put people at Parade Rest if I needed to, the rest of the time I expected them to be doing what they needed to as long as they could pay attention to me If I addressed them. I am a big believer in the "Rest" Command, unless folks just won't listen up moving up to "At Ease" if they are intent on having private comments while I'm talking, then we can tighten it up a little. And the great thing is, I still have another position of rest "Parade Rest" to work with before I have to go full on "Attention" and lock folks up. :)
In my own personal view of exercising authority - I always thought that you should exercise as little authority as you needed to do the job, then, when push comes to shove and you throw your weight around, the Troops know there's a problem and they need to tighten their own stuff up and crush whatever the situation is. But opinions vary.

Response by SSgt James Lanning made Mar 5 at 2015 1:29 PM

2015-03-05T13:29:50-05:00

It's, the, army

Response by SGT John Rauch made Mar 5 at 2015 2:47 PM

2015-03-05T14:47:19-05:00

I had this issue as a SPC, had a PV2 who thought he knew everything and my NCO put me in charge of him and another soldier in my section, no problem, the problem comes when the NCO gives you the position, but not the authority to back your position. as a specialist my NCO expected me to inspect rooms and walk through the barracks on weekends, if my NCO had any intent on sending me to the promotion board at the time, I wouldnt have thought much of it, but here I am a SPC with 18 months TIS. I performed my duties without question, but when I found a deficiency and tried to make a correction I got the "you're just a specialist" line time and time again. My NCO would not back me up on the issue and when it came time for barracks inspection it all fell back on me. what I am trying to say is that ranks are there for a reason, and though parade rest is extreme NCO's need to stand behind the rank system and back their "senior" lower enlisted guys.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2015 4:23 PM

2015-03-07T16:23:09-05:00

Seeing as how it's possible to enter the Army as a SPC, and seeing as how a SPC is NOT an NCO (whereas a CPL is), God forbid if me or one of my NCOs caught a SPC making privates stand at parade rest.

My SPCs exist to to a few things here: assist the NCOs in training (through the delegation of authority from the NCO), to become and remain fully proficient in their MOS, and to begin learning and exhibiting the leadership skills necessary for advancement.

Notice I said learning and exhibiting, not demanding the benefit that accompanies, the leadership skills. If High-Speed Command Master SPC can't properly handle the limited authority that his/her grade carries, what makes me, or any other member of the CoC or NCO support channel believe that he/she will carry him/herself in any manner becoming of an NCO after hitting the board?

Response by SPC Andrew Wilcox made Mar 12 at 2015 12:54 PM

2015-03-12T12:54:00-04:00

As a tanker, it's common for a Specialist to be a gunner. On a tank, at least in my regiment, the gunner was a position of authority. I don't think I ever stood at parade rest for specialist who was also a gunner but I was required to listen to his commands (within reason of course) and show him proper respect. I think that would be enough.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 18 at 2015 11:25 AM

2015-03-18T11:25:55-04:00

Yes... of course... and 2LTs need to salute 1LTs... Because we are Italy.... If we are in Germany, then the Answer would be No, but in Italy, the Answer is always Yes.

And what about a Command Private Major?

2LTs don't salute 1LTs... and Parade Rest is for NCOs!

NOOOOOOO

Response by SGT William Howell made Mar 18 at 2015 11:40 AM

2015-03-18T11:40:09-04:00

In the MP Corps, while in garrison, we would have specialist that would be in charge of a sector and would have lower ranking that were they would be in charge of. They would stand at parade rest for the specialist for that duty.

I never really cared for it, but the soldiers did it. I was only a specialist for about 4 months before going to Iraq. Once I got there I was promoted to corporal in the first week I was there. The sham days ended there.

Response by Capt Brandon Charters made Mar 25 at 2015 4:45 PM

2015-03-25T16:45:37-04:00

I believe this is my first meme posted to RallyPoint. Turning a new page, because I found this extremely funny.

Response by SSG Willis Baker made Mar 25 at 2015 8:32 PM

2015-03-25T20:32:41-04:00

Back in the old, old days, a PFC was hot $hit, he carried a lot of weight. I guess it was changing during Vietnam where a PFC was no different than a Spec 4 except in pay.
Spec 4s don't need to get power hungry until they make Sgt.

Response by SSG(P) Timme Jones made Mar 25 at 2015 9:07 PM

2015-03-25T21:07:41-04:00

I am a SPC and a team leader. I make my team stand at parade rest for me. I do that so they know I am there to lead not be their friend.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2015 7:19 PM

2015-03-27T19:19:36-04:00

Well after reading most of the posts on this i would say the members of its army has made its own regulation and i belive that is wrong and unprofessional.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2015 8:21 PM

2015-03-27T20:21:14-04:00

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Mar 27 at 2015 11:31 PM

2015-03-27T23:31:38-04:00

SPC is higher ranking so technically yes and I'm sure the regs would back me up on this. But as the SPC is not an NCO it'd be a unique demand to make. Same as a 1LT requiring a 2LT to call him Sir. Technically he can but kind of a douchebag move. The one time I "pulled rank" as an 1LT towards a 2LT was when I was a Company XO but the story behind that warrants it.

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Mar 30 at 2015 11:52 PM

2015-03-30T23:52:48-04:00

The way I look at it is like this:

The FM is MANDATING enlisted personnel to stand at PR when addressing an NCO.

And AR 600-20 tells us that a rank structure is vital for the proper order and discipline of the force.

The FM also tells us that a soldier will be respectful, by being courteous and polite. The same FM tells us that a PVT should be the first to enter a vehicle and then a PFC (for instance), and vice versa when exiting the vehicle? Why?, because the magic words "ranking soldier" were used.

So, with those out of the way, I would venture that a PVT or PFC CAN stand at PR when addressing a SPC. Hell, a PVT CAN stand at PR when addressing a PV2.

It is customs and courtesies, FM tells us we HAVE to do it for NCOs. Junior enlisted do not HAVE to do it amongst each other.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't though.

After all, last I checked a PV2 still outranks a PVT.

I would encourage soldiers to do it, but I wouldn't punish them if they don't either.

Response by SP5 Michael Rathbun made Mar 31 at 2015 12:33 AM

2015-03-31T00:33:58-04:00

My important question is this: should I salute while standing at Parade Rest if I am a Second Lieutenant First Class? (I worked really hard for that bar-with-one-rocker.)

Response by PO2 David Hagwood made Mar 31 at 2015 12:54 AM

2015-03-31T00:54:58-04:00

I guess it depends on what grade a NCO starts at in your service. I guess each service may have their own rules on this. I don't think I've ever seen a 3rd Class put anyone at parade rest, although I believe they have every right to under the UCMJ. We're NCOs at E-4 (3rd Class Petty Officer) We usually see more 2nd Classes do that, this is the equivalent to Sergent; so maybe if Sergents usually stand subordinates at parade rest, maybe we're on the same page on this. We don't even see much of that at all anymore, though. It's like we have to be careful to not make people feel singled out and we have to make sure that no one can make a EO issue out of things. It all comes down to us becoming a more PC, more kinder and gentler military. When I came in, you would still hear people getting hemmed up getting yelled from the top from the top of the Petty Officer's lungs, veins bulging out of the forehead and all. They would put the fear of God in them.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2015 8:53 AM

2015-03-31T08:53:53-04:00

Lets get back to basics.
FM 7-21.13,4-16 states: when speaking to or being addressed a noncommissioned officer of superior rank, stand at parade rest until ordered otherwise.

It is not difficult, this is an FM and a commander can instill discipline in his/her organization by establishing a standard to have Soldiers stand at parade rest for those senior in rank. Granted you will not see this much in today's Army. Specialist that are in leadership positions and laterally promoted to CPL shall be respected by those junior according to the FM.

According to the FM a PFC is not required to stand at parade rest for a specialist, but there is not a regulation that states any different.

Response by SSG John Erny made Mar 31 at 2015 2:52 PM

2015-03-31T14:52:49-04:00

The only time I have heard of troops going to parade rest for a full bird private is in Ranger Bat. Their club their rules. I do not know this to be fact but i have heard that it is true.

For the rest of us not part of the special kids club, I would say no. That being said the E-4 mafia is very good at brow beating E-1 through E-3's in to doing the right thing. If the Platoon Sgt fires off a heat round the E-4 may be in the impact area. This could ruffle the feathers on the shame shield bird and that will never do. So if you have a strong E-4 that can fix "issues" look the other way, peer pressure is a powerful tool.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2015 7:57 PM

2015-03-31T19:57:00-04:00

I would never in my life ever make anyone stand at parade rest for me. It's a waste of time and not professional.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Apr 20 at 2015 12:45 AM

2015-04-20T00:45:53-04:00

I'm a Navy guy, but the way I understand it a SPC is NOT an NCO, and the instruction you cite clearly states Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when speaking to an NCO. So my answer to your question is no.

Response by SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA made Apr 20 at 2015 4:33 AM

2015-04-20T04:33:51-04:00

haha! Right!

Response by CW2(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 11:49 AM

2015-04-20T11:49:34-04:00

If you re read FM 7-21.13 the answer is right there. A SPC is not a junior NCO. A CPL is a jr NCO. If you encounter this again state the FM and if you receive any lip take that high speed SPC to a real NCO. I am sure they would love to educate that PV4, oops I mean SPC.

Response by SGT John Wesley made Apr 20 at 2015 11:50 AM

2015-04-20T11:50:53-04:00

I once had a Cpt, (Ex-Enlisted) demand salutes while in field.... It's ridiculous and so is being at parade rest for a SP4, A Cpl, yes.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 1:26 PM

2015-04-20T13:26:48-04:00

I have had privates stand at parade rest, but only if the specialist was the privates' team leader. He was there to supervise them, not be their friend. There has to be a separation. Having to stand at parade rest helped the Soldiers understand that Specialist Snuffy was not one of them and they had to treat him differently.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 2:04 PM

2015-04-20T14:04:57-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member so, I'm in my arms room and an SPC comes looking for a SGT, I'm behind the cage so he can't see my rank. As he is talking, I'm getting closer to him and he stand at Parade Rest, I told him, dude! you outrank me! And he answered me, oh! I thought you were a NCO, you are just old. #TrueStory He saw the future in me...

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 2:36 PM

2015-04-20T14:36:02-04:00

For the love of Christ! Can we give it a rest with questions like this? Is this really the best we can come up with, RallyPoint?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 7:37 PM

2015-04-20T19:37:59-04:00

Hell to the No! It only takes two years to become a SPC, its also entry level as well...

I once had a SPC team leader that I stood at parade rest for even when it wasn't needed because he was respectful in every way, smart and humane, he did not have to give an order twice or even have to think about it. I got sh1t done because of respect. He's now a SGT.

And there was THAT SPC, chubby, been in a little over 5 years... not going into any further details but hell, me and my battles were always trying to dodge this guy, taking our time with the PMCS, wont even look back. when he did got us to do something... you'd bet that was a long dragging day. I believe he's now separated when I PCS.

-When it comes to SPC and Privates, it's all on respect. You give respect, you get respect.

Response by SGT Michael Touchet made Apr 20 at 2015 7:42 PM

2015-04-20T19:42:46-04:00

The language is clear and unambiguous, Specialists are not NCOs thus there is no requirement for them to do so.

Response by Maj Joseph Osborne made Apr 21 at 2015 8:04 AM

2015-04-21T08:04:55-04:00

LTs saluting each other? The only time I heard of that was at Maxwell AFB. I was there for a Lt PME course they just started in '99, a fellow 2Lt (Ryan) from my ROTC Detachment was there too. Well, Ryan was walking down the street when he passed a 1Lt OTS Flight/CC marching his OTs down the road. Ryan said something to the effect of "Hey, what's up?" The 1Lt halted the flight, ripped into Ryan (who, BTW, was a prior service E-5) about customs and courtesies. Ryan response was "You're a Lt, so am I. I don't salute LTs at my base, and I'm sure as hell not going to here!" At which point, Ryan walked away. End of story? NOOOOOO! 1Lt Stickuphisbutt complained, and by the end of the duty day, word came down that all 2Lts would salute all 1Lts...something all the 1Lts insisted not happen. Long story short, the order came down, was ignored, and we didn't hear anymore of it in our last couple weeks there.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Apr 21 at 2015 8:32 AM

2015-04-21T08:32:08-04:00

Been there, done that. My answer: No, no, no and hell no.

When I was a Specialist we had a Platoon Sergeant (may have originated with the 1SG, I'm not sure) who wanted the Privates to stand at parade rest for us "Sham Shields"--most team leaders were Specialists, so that's my theory as to why he wanted to do this--and the idea was almost universally hated. Privates thought it was dumb, Specialists felt it was outright wrong (WE'RE NOT NCOs!), but we played the game when higher links in the chain-of-command were around; but ONLY when they were around.

Funny thing, as I think about this, I believe I was even more against this back then as a Specialist as I am now as an NCO.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 3:40 PM

2015-04-22T15:40:25-04:00

First let's put on the record that no one is below you because you outrank them. They are junior to you. As for juniors standing at parade rest for a SPC its not just black and white. If a specialist has been entrusted to a leadership position such as team leader or squad leader then I say yes. This is where position overs ones rank. Specialist is easy to obtain, getting put in a leadership position isn't quite as easy. You have to express you authority in that position and that requires respect and discipline from your subordinates. This doesn't justify getting a big head about it at all. I also agree that if there is a lack of discipline in your ranks an NCO can make the call that all soldiers will stand at the position of parade rest while addressing anyone their senior. Example, pv1 speaking to pv2. This is to express the importance of customs and courtesies and to drive the point home. The army has gotten to lax over the years and it's just finally starting to get back to old school tradition. It's something we've needed back for a long time

Response by SPC Matthew Birkinbine made Apr 23 at 2015 6:58 AM

2015-04-23T06:58:38-04:00

The practice of doing so is, in my opinion, a sign of respect, and if those junior to me do so, I appreciate that respect. I find myself, often, standing at parade rest simply to show the person speaking to me that s/he has my undivided attention. I would never require it, but I recommend, like I do myself, that those juniors who don't get into the habit of doing so, start because it fosters the discipline of naturally and automatically doing it for NCOs. Too many times, I've had to step up and correct a PV2 or PFC for not automatically going to parade rest for our NCOs. This discipline should've been drilled in Basic, and enforced in AIT. It makes our Army look like the professional force it is supposed to be.

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Apr 23 at 2015 7:30 PM

2015-04-23T19:30:12-04:00

According to the reg, you do not have to go to parade rest. If you are in a formal formation, you will come and go from the position of parade rest! The specialist could be in an acting NCO slot and the highest rank in the formation. Just use your commen sense with this.

When I first came in the Army, we we trained to go to parade rest to any rank above tour own!

Response by SPC Edward Tapper made Apr 27 at 2015 2:12 PM

2015-04-27T14:12:25-04:00

I'll start by saying that I have been both, SPC and CPL. Went to PLDC as a SPC, was promoted to CPL, CPLs were later phased out for a while and I found myself wearing SPC rank, once again. That said, as I saw it, as a SPC, I was not an NC. I was an experienced PFC, an equal. As a CPL, I felt like I was barely a Junior NC and never thought a PV1, PVT, PFC or a SPC should stand at Parade at Parade Rest for me. I suppose I could have done it as an E-4 CPL, but wouldn't have even entertained such an absurd thought while wearing E-4 SPC rank. This clown must be power hungry. As for the Lieutenants saluting one another, are they 2LTs saluting 1LTs? That is understandable. Two LTs of equal rank is pretty dumb.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Apr 29 at 2015 6:17 PM

2015-04-29T18:17:05-04:00

Without pause, YES!

What did SSG McCulley just say?
There are criteria that must be met: A> Said SPC must be holding an NCO coded position on the MTO&E. (My preferred example is an SPC holding a teamleader billet) B> Said SPC must be assigned Soldiers that s/he counsels and are also coded on said MTO&E under previously mentioned NCO position. C> ONLY THOSE SOLDIERS SHOULD DO IT! It shouldn't be a thing, but the troop is obviously a NCO Trainee who's rank just hasn't caught up. Their command would not entrust the responsibility of troops upon them *we hope*.

The more dangerous thing, in my opinion, is comfortability and the perception of those troops seeing that future NCO as Jr Enlisted. I made a big boy decision my last promotion and since my DOR was during PCS leave I had one of my dad's old Vietnam war buds, a retired CSM, promote me. He even got a hair cut.. pretty cool. I showed up to my next assignment (where a vast majority of the instructors are E6s) as a SSG and was always perceived as such. I've seen others who promoted soon after arriving where I observed 'rank bias' continue. Because I made a decision I didn't have to deal with it. There was a reason we used to move folks when they got promoted. IDK about you but, I love it when my juniors get promoted.. one less social barrier.. one step closer to peerhood (that is where we hide the beer) .

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 11:38 PM

2015-04-30T23:38:47-04:00

There is no regulatory requirement to do so, so no. However, as a PSG I have had Soldiers subordinate to their SPC team leader stand at parade rest when addressing them in an effort to differentiate the position from their perceived peer relationship as junior enlisted service members. Is it the right thing? Not really. The correct answer in that scenario is to laterally promote the E-4 team leader to Corporal which is the purpose of that rank in my opinion. What is really inspiring though, is to see a subordinate Soldier stand at parade rest for his Team Leader not because he was ever told to do so, but out of earned respect of the junior leader in that position. I believe in the requirement to exercise courtesy by standing at parade rest as a measure of discipline, but I do think it is over-emphasized sometimes. As I have been guilty of making subordinate Soldiers stand at parade rest for their SPC superior, I have often been guilty of telling Soldiers subordinate to me to stop sweating the craziness and just communicate the message so we can get to work.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2015 1:48 PM

2015-05-01T13:48:15-04:00

I vote Pump your brakes high-speed!

Response by SPC Chad Kolod made May 6 at 2015 1:31 PM

2015-05-06T13:31:32-04:00

I would say that for sure you want to respect soldiers who out rank yourself. That said, you also need to respect the soldiers of less rank than yourself. Parade rest is a sign of respect. I don't think it should be expected of a pfc to go to parade rest for a specialist, but at the same time if you are a pfc getting instructions/orders/advise from specialist you would go to parade rest to show that you are paying attention and giving a fellow soldier the respect he/she deserves.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made May 6 at 2015 2:16 PM

2015-05-06T14:16:24-04:00

I'm not familiar with "pump your breaks at high-speed" (shouldn't that be brakes?), but I DO a SPC is NOT an NCO (CPL, on the other hand, is). A close reading of FM 7-21.13 refers to "NCO", and a SPC does not fit that bill.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 1:09 AM

2015-05-07T01:09:13-04:00

The rank system out there is for the reason. And we stick to the Army Values. Some people realize that, some don't. Respect the senior in rank than you is one perfect example. That's what makes us professionals. By regulation, E4 is not an NCO and E3 and below don't have to snap in parade rest in front of him. Now, good E4 should couch and remind any E3 and below to do that in front of the NCO. And when time comes, when that E3 will become one, he will be expecting the same treatment of professionalism from lower enlisted.

Response by PFC Alex Rivers made May 7 at 2015 1:42 AM

2015-05-07T01:42:07-04:00

In all technicalities, a specialist is not an nco, they're still junior enlisted.
Thus I see no reason to stand at parade rest.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 9:11 PM

2015-05-07T21:11:41-04:00

The real question is why is a Senior NCO asking such a dumb question?

Response by SPC Todd Hanson made May 9 at 2015 9:39 PM

2015-05-09T21:39:50-04:00

As a SPC I have not earned the right for a soldier to stand at parade rest for me. I have seen in a line unit at fort wainwright that e-3s have to stand at parade rest for e4s and that's why a PFC did for me after I asked him why he was doing it.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 4:04 PM

2015-05-10T16:04:51-04:00

While the corporal is a NCO rank, and should receive the courtesies as such, the specialist is still junior enlisted. The separation is there for a reason.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 11:16 PM

2015-05-10T23:16:48-04:00

I actually asked some Specialists that I had on Staff Duty with me the other day. Now I am on Staff Duty today and still milling this question. The one thought that they brought up was the Spec4 rank being where they would have to go to Parade rest for them. The answer before that was well I would expect them to go to Parade rest for me, I am a team leader. My question to him was then, what if I brought you a brand new kid just off the plane that didn't know you from Adam and therefore didn't KNOW that you were a team leader? How would he KNOW he was supposed to go to parade rest for you? What about the SPC standing next to you that was not a team leader? Then the thought of SPC4 came up again and that is the only other thing that made sense.
Here is why I am torn. I have fought the battle in the MUB and in the 1SG office where I have circled NO to that PFC making SPC. The following month, I am not at the MUB or the meeting where the White Book is covered and suddenly for some reason this dude is circled YES and I have a SPC that does not in anyway deserve to be a PFC much LESS a SPC. So I am supposed to have PFCs stand at parade rest for this guy that I would NEVER put in charge of latrine detail much less anything dealing with a Soldiers well being just because they have a Shield and a bird on it? It is a tough call on my part. I don't know that I would agree with it honestly. I RECEIVED a SPC from another post, FLAGED him shortly after for being ABCP failure, but even BEFORE then I fired him for being an incompetent leader. I DID try though, and he was not up to it and I am not going to have an incompetent person leading Soldiers under me. Those guys standing at Parade Rest, giving them the same respect that they render my NCOs that earned it, I would have to lean towards no personally. If they are made CPL, naturally that is different but as long as it is the shield I have to say no.

Response by SPC Gregory Hall made May 20 at 2015 1:29 AM

2015-05-20T01:29:06-04:00

Part of me says no, and part of me says yes.
In all honesty, a SPC does outrank a PFC, and for that there should be a level of respect shown towards the SPC. But at the same time a SPC is a junior enlisted, so part of me thinks it shouldn't matter. When I was in the service as a SPC, I had a few privates under me that would stand at parade rest without me ever asking them to, and it was a bit confusing but I never corrected them.
When I was a private at Fort Bliss, I was taught that if someone outranks you, give them respect. The rank structure is there for a reason, whether you like it or not, so when I was a private I would stand at parade rest for everyone who outranked me.

Response by SPC Wes Brown made Jul 3 at 2015 3:47 AM

2015-07-03T03:47:42-04:00

It goes two ways here. For Spc in a leadership position I say yes. For Spc not in one I say no they are your peers grow and learn from each other no stronger bond than that of brothers and sisters. If a lower enlisted tries to buck up to a Spc then let them handle the issue. The reason I say leadership positions is that it will revert back to say an acting psgt or acting 1sgt leadership roles have the respect. Done deal black and white.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Sep 8 at 2015 12:25 AM

2015-09-08T00:25:10-04:00

Power hungry morons... cant wait to see how they act when they get promoted!!! They will not be very liked and probably wont make it far in the military.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 11:25 PM

2015-10-16T23:25:47-04:00

I'd like to know this as well. Last drill a E5 yelled at me saying "why aren't you going to parade rest when speaking to Jacobs!" Jacobs was a E4. I was never told to do this for E4s and below. He made me feel like a shit bag solider for not knowing this. But when I asked my peers E4s and below all off them said we do t go to parade rests for E4s. So you can see I am abit tied here. Who was in the wrong? Was the sergeant just being an ass messing with me?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2015 6:50 PM

2015-10-24T18:50:41-04:00

If he/she was doing it to correct the customs and courtesy's of the Privates (if they were deficient), then I would say sure. That doesn't sound like the case here.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2015 7:23 PM

2015-11-05T19:23:58-05:00

If that SPC is holding the position of an NCO then yes. I was smoked as a PFC team leader for no making my SPC stand at parade rest for me.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2016 1:58 AM

2016-01-14T01:58:20-05:00

I was in a unit once that morale and discipline was low. The CO and 1Sgt mandated that you stand at parade rest when speaking to higher ranking folks.E1s stoops at parade rest for E2s and forward. Took about a week to make a point. Depends on the situation.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2016 11:19 PM

2016-01-14T23:19:08-05:00

Hahahahahahaha um no. Regulation clearly states NCO not other junior enlisted Soldiers senior in grade.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Feb 11 at 2016 11:09 AM

2016-02-11T11:09:52-05:00

Spc is not an nco, so you don't need to parade rest.

Response by SFC Eric Williams made Feb 19 at 2016 2:16 AM

2016-02-19T02:16:17-05:00

Pump the breaks and put this thing in reverse...nope....nope...heck no! And No again!

Response by SSG Mannix Brooks made Feb 25 at 2016 5:04 PM

2016-02-25T17:04:58-05:00

Privates in basic training and AIT get more leadership training than E2-E4 at the unit level and that is a mistake in coddling troops. Get rid of SPC and make it CPL and start training troops to be leaders instead of followers so they are prepared when the time comes. I have always found it odd that you can take a SPC send them to a board and a school for a month and they are supposed to be ready for SGT when they have never had any real leadership responsibility before this. The Marines have Lance Corporal and Corporals out of necessity because they have a smaller force and need people to step up early. If the Army enacted their stance they would weed out people earlier and not wait until they are NCOs to find them lacking. There would be a more professional force if we changed our thinking. The forces are shrinking so it is time to get rid of an old system that does not reflect the intelligence of today's troops. They can do more than what they are asked to do or given responsibility to do, we expect them to perform in war Train for that expectation in peace instead of spending all week in motor pools, going through the motions in SGTs time, or doing PowerPoint slide field exercises and train the way we should. We won't have this debate and E4s will all be deserving of CPL if the system changes or they can be sent home.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2016 1:21 PM

2016-03-01T13:21:16-05:00

My first active duty unit's company commander thought he had discipline issues. He directed that if we interacted with anyone above our pay grade it was at parade rest. Kinda felt somewhat demeaning to stand at that position while talking to a PV2. Glad that foolishness only lasted about a week.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2016 8:22 AM

2016-03-04T08:22:49-05:00

It's good practice to show that respect, but if said Specialist is putting emphasis on it, then he/she needs to slow their roll. Maybe if he/she is in charge of a detail and is giving specific instructions, maybe. But day to day convo and interaction, no way.

Response by SGM Irvin Lyons Jr made Mar 8 at 2016 11:31 AM

2016-03-08T11:31:40-05:00

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2016 12:17 PM

2016-03-10T12:17:23-05:00

We had a PV2 that tried to make PVTs stand at parade rest for him. He was such a dirtbag that most of the PVTs passed him up and they were all SPCs while he was still PFC. All I can say is, "payback is a bitch". lol

Response by SPC Rory J. Mattheisen made Apr 28 at 2016 5:44 PM

2016-04-28T17:44:23-04:00

It is a unit by unit issue. In some units it is required, but in others it is only required when speaking to PLT SGT or above.

Response by SPC James Szelest made Feb 27 at 2018 4:22 AM

2018-02-27T04:22:14-05:00

I meant to vote pump your breaks high-speed. Last I checked AR 600-8 listed Advancement to Specialist not promotion. As a courtesy to higher rank it's respectful and shows maturity as well as honor for th e uniform, but not required. It's not the Marines. That would be no different than a Pic insisting that a Pv2 stand at parade rest. However, certain duty possisions rate a higher level of respect. Squadleader, section supervisor etc. Situational awareness. Don't be the Pfc that is getting counseled for failure to fallow instructions and a Staff Nco walks by while your arguing with that Spc knowing you are 8up and that Sgt knows you as such. Just stand by, they got something for you to help you figure it out.

Response by SPC James Szelest made Feb 27 at 2018 4:25 AM

2018-02-27T04:25:27-05:00

Correction required, in the sentence of my post auto correct decided I didn't know what a Pfc was and corrected to Pic instead, dang thing.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2018 8:07 AM

2018-04-02T08:07:10-04:00

My unit has us do it if they are in a team leader position. But not otherwise

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2018 12:59 PM

2018-04-26T12:59:28-04:00

Yes, it's simply a show of respect, which is important and part of the developmental process of Soldiering.

Response by MGySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2018 10:00 PM

2018-08-22T22:00:47-04:00

Interesting...Marine Corps Promotion Warrant reads : "I do strictly direct and require all personnel of lesser grade to render obedience to appropriate orders". Good subject to provoke thoughts and comments with regards to discipline expected and demanded at our lower ranks.

Response by SPC Michael Henriksen made Jan 9 at 2019 5:48 PM

2019-01-09T17:48:01-05:00

If you are a team leader as a E4 regardless of SPC or CPL you are held responsible for close below you. As a SPC I filled positions of Sgt and SSgt. I tried to keep the atmosphere relaxed but clearly disciplined. I only ever had one issue with a E3 who did not understand how the military works or at least did. As he was disputing my authority to give him direction or 1sgt happened by.
Told PFC X. That anytime he thought I was being out of line or behind my authority in what I told him to do he should come see him. Kid was happy as a pig in mud, until 1Sgt added but you Damn well better have finished the task Specialist Henriksen gave you before you step through my door.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2019 7:38 PM

2019-03-27T19:38:43-04:00

Book answer, no s/he is not an NCO it does not apply.

I guess I can see how this might be a little MOS dependent EOD I would never see this being a thing. By the time we get out of AIT we are 6 months from SPC. I could see how this might be more combat arms related as they have different roles they fill that EOD does not have, but still not an NCO not really a thing.

Response by SPC Phillip Sheppard made Apr 18 at 2019 8:47 PM

2019-04-18T20:47:48-04:00

I was appointed the Barracks Sargent at Fort Been Harrison Indianapolis IN by the Command Sargent Major for 6 Months and regardless of rank (there were E5s and E6s whom upon my inspection of the quarters would address me in parade rest when in the Barracks. However, upon leaving the building the roles reverse. That was 1983. I think it would depend non the Command structure and duties of the Specialist.

Response by SSG Brian Carpenter made Mar 15 at 2021 9:44 PM

2021-03-15T21:44:17-04:00

Noth Specialist and Corporal are junior NCO'S the only difference is leadership positions vs technical not much different than the WO and Officer relationship. When in doubt look it up.

Response by CPT Keith Celebrezze made Mar 30 at 2021 9:13 PM

2021-03-30T21:13:12-04:00

The vast majority of lieutenants do not salute each other in the Army. I have never seen or heard of anyone under the rank of E5 being required to give any courtesy to a fellow pvt-spc. For example at basic training despite the fact that there's a gang of specialist trainies running around, everyone is referred to as private. The same ideas apply to the regular Army and individuals under E5 don't have any courtesies to extend to their superiors who are themselves under E5. However even in basic training I've seen e fives that needed to go through training again and they were required to enforce courtesies for themselves. The drill sergeants were mad when sergeants E5 in training, even basic training, weren't given courtesies by the trainees ranked E four and below.

Good luck.