Should the Army reinstate the use of Correctional Confinement Facilities?

LTC John Czarnecki — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 09:45:27 -0500

If you were to get a Company Grade Article 15 for some minor offense, one of the punishment options is a week's confinement.  Move up to a Field Grade ART 15 and you can get a month. This USED to be served at the post CCF, or Correctional Confinement Facility, popularly called the Gulag.  It wasn't jail, but it wasn't a nice place, either.  Hard-ass NCOs would supervise work details, where an errant young trooper would serve his confinement by filling sandbags, or cutting firewood for the Sr. NCO's and Officer's quarters.  The soldiers lived in WWII barracks which were surrounded by a fence but no guard.  There was a CQ on duty to make sure nobody ran off, however. The objective was to make the wrong-doer sweat a bit for their crimes.  This did one of two things:  the soldier who punched an NCO and got an ART-15 would either become reformed, or would become incorrigible and would generally wind up being Chaptered out of the service.  More often than not, the soldiers who went to CCF would be reformed. I started this thread as a companion to the School of the Soldier thread... by getting back to the basics, even with a purely volunteer Service, I feel the needs of the NCOs are best being met.  What do you think?  Have you had any experience with the CCF?  (I once took a truckload of empty sandbags to the CCF to have them filled... I was tapped to support the construction of ROTC summer camp fighting positions at Ft. Lewis.  The NCOIC at the CCF pointed to a shade tree and told the three of us to relax in the lounge chairs under it.  A few hours later our truck was neatly loaded with a thousand or so filled sandbags.  Nice.)

Response by SFC Fernando G. made Feb 18 at 2014 11:14 AM

SFC Fernando G. — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 11:14:47 -0500

This is an interesting suggestion, Sir. Admittedly, most of my career has been Reserve-side, so the CCF is a foreign concept I have only heard/read about in passing. Allow me to bounce my thoughts off the community:

I support an idea such as what you have described. Taking away some of the comforts of daily life and adding in some hard work under the supervision of some strict NCOs trained in guiding Soldiers back onto the right path will give errant Soldiers some time to reflect on what they did wrong. It would make sense that a CCF (or something similar) would be a place where a Soldier would either straighten up or wash out.

I think an important thing is making sure that it's not just a work detail. As I suggested, I would hope the NCOs supervising the CCF would be trained to not just be a "hard-ass" (though that is certainly a key trait, I would think) but also to provide corrective guidance and support. Perhaps this could be done by completing some sort of counseling session when the Soldier processes in and out of the CCF or other similar program.

Response by SFC James Baber made Feb 18 at 2014 1:00 PM

SFC James Baber — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 13:00:39 -0500

Sir, It will never happen because of the PC wuss's and the left-wing whiners who will claim it is cruel and unusual, although the military survived with it for many, many years. I worked at one for awhile back in the 90s at Ft. Hood, but they took it away about late '95 because of the PC changes taking place during the Clinton Admin during the last RIF we suffered through. It was a great tool for helping to reform and guide troubled Soldiers in the right direction, but because of politicians that have no business sticking their noses into the rules and regulations of the military we have lost so many things that were functional and favorable to all SMs, old and new alike. Great thought and post though.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Feb 18 at 2014 1:15 PM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 13:15:45 -0500

"Back in the day," CDRs had the ability to send Basic Training Soldiers, OSUT Soldiers, and others who needed a dose of reality, to Scared Straight.  Scared Straight was conducted at the Regional Correctional Facility at Fort Knox.  48-96 hours was usually more enough to "scare a Soldier straight," get their head out ass, and find the proper motivation to train.  The success rate was very high.   

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2014 3:47 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 15:47:00 -0400

Absolutely

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Apr 29 at 2014 12:27 PM

LTC Joseph Gross — Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:27:51 -0400

While sitting in those worthless SHARP classes today instead of doing my job I was thinking about Charlie's Chicken Farm and how we didn't have the discipline problems then that we have now. There is something to be said for some direct intervention and I think we saw that in the "good old days".

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Apr 29 at 2014 12:59 PM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:59:59 -0400

We had this in the Corps when I came in in the mid 90s. I knoew a few guys that got sent over there and for the most part it straightened them out. Sometimes being sent away for 15-30 days and making big rocks out of small rocks is all it takes to get a Marine back on the straight and narrow. Our program continued until the early 2000s but was suspended due to lack of personnel to run it since the wars started. I think CCU needs to come back as it can straighten out those that might need some "guidance".

Response by SGT James Elphick made May 19 at 2014 2:15 PM

SGT James Elphick — Mon, 19 May 2014 14:15:45 -0400

The CCF sounds great but our unit was not scared to use the "extra duty" clause of an ART-15, I think some of those guys wished they could have gone to a CCF.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 19 at 2014 2:43 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 19 May 2014 14:43:31 -0400

We used the local CCU at lot at Pendleton. You're right, it was a great alternative to just arbitrarily burning someone...

Response by SSG John Bacon made May 19 at 2014 2:44 PM

SSG John Bacon — Mon, 19 May 2014 14:44:30 -0400

Yes Absolutely!! Only problem is the Liberal's won't allow that to ever happen again. But you are absolutely correct; you could send a total F-up no discipline soldier there and in about 2 months when you got him back, he would be Squared away for the most part.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made May 25 at 2014 4:10 AM

SSG Ed Mikus — Sun, 25 May 2014 04:10:52 -0400

yes!

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made May 25 at 2014 8:41 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Sun, 25 May 2014 08:41:51 -0400

Absolutely! I wish we had that option in BCT-land. Believe me,I'd recommend it every time the chance came along (within reason).

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made May 25 at 2014 8:43 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Sun, 25 May 2014 08:43:59 -0400

I've only seen a couple of CCF Soldiers doing duty whilst on my first trail at Knox. I did NOT want to be one of them or anywhere near them

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made May 25 at 2014 8:47 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Sun, 25 May 2014 08:47:19 -0400

I want something like this so bad, I even pay for the construction

Response by SFC Justin Rooks made May 25 at 2014 11:36 AM

SFC Justin Rooks — Sun, 25 May 2014 11:36:35 -0400

I think that it should. I remember programs like "School of the Soldier" and CCF and I thought that it was something good. It reinforced the fact that there were consequences for your actions and it gave you the opportunity to see that you could have received somethjng worse (money lost, reduced in rank, etc.). The issue is that you have to figure out how to bring the program beck at all levels, from IET to permanent party. I think that if that can be figured out, then you have brought back an excellent tool for reinforcing discipline and standards.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2015 8:05 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Feb 2015 20:05:16 -0500

The foundation for it are complete. Just forgotten.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Feb 22 at 2015 11:20 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Sun, 22 Feb 2015 23:20:15 -0500

Absolutely... The old CCF system worked and should be reinstated. It gave little more teeth to punishment short of a court-martial.

The Army had a whole system of CCFs, from individual installation CCFs to the FT Riley Correctional Activity (later renamed Retraining Brigade), where some soldiers were sentenced to in lieu of going to the Disciplinary Barracks at Ft Leavenworth, with a chance to return to active duty as productive soldiers. Of course, in today's zero-defect mentality, any such return would be very short-lived as they would never survive the next promotion, review board, etc.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 4:27 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 04:27:38 -0500

ABSOLUTELY!!! It would be great if the commander had the ability to fully exercise his/her full NJP power.

Unfortunately that would fall on the units as another red cycle tasking for NCOs to be supervisors. We have too many gates to guard so, "ain't nobody got time for that".

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made Feb 24 at 2015 6:38 AM

Maj Mike Sciales — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 06:38:40 -0500

We had a CCF barracks at RAF Upper Heyford. The first 2 hours were a brief revisit to Basic training. During that intense time airmen were told to give serious thought to "why did you join?" Troops were free to quit, but that meant a discharge. Once committed to the program they worked normal duties during the day (no fatigue details) and evenings were devoted to introspection as well as studying core values. We had an 85% success rate and some airmen went on to win Squadron and Wing awards and fine careers. I felt first termers make mistakes and we benefitted by "re-bluing" by not losing the money we'd spent training them. Despite obvious success, the program was killed in early 90s as we moved to "zero defect" mode. I think we made a mistake and lost some talent.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Feb 25 at 2015 7:33 PM

SSG Leonard Johnson — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:33:27 -0500

Ohhhhhhh check yeah.....I loved these places....they not only worked on me once....but twice.... I think about it.... If I been promoted as many times as demoted....I be CSM of the Universe :) Man the 80's were to fun

Response by PVT DrTravis D Hill made Dec 28 at 2016 10:39 AM

PVT DrTravis D Hill — Wed, 28 Dec 2016 10:39:55 -0500

It amounted to water boarding!

Response by Edward Belliveau made Mar 11 at 2017 5:10 PM

Edward Belliveau — Sat, 11 Mar 2017 17:10:00 -0500

Yes yes

Response by SGT Bryan O'Reilly made May 25 at 2017 8:15 AM

SGT Bryan O'Reilly — Thu, 25 May 2017 08:15:12 -0400

Yes. I believe that immediate corrective action at the unit level is best. Depending on the severity of the act. Restriction, extra duty etc and CCF has the added incentive of demonstrating why you fly straight to the rest of your people. But with some exceptions, it should also preclude barring from reenlistment those that just needed direct motivation but were, for the most part, good soldiers.

Response by SFC John LaShure made Dec 30 at 2017 9:58 AM

SFC John LaShure — Sat, 30 Dec 2017 09:58:53 -0500

Bring it back!!!!

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Dec 30 at 2017 12:34 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 30 Dec 2017 12:34:01 -0500

The main reason Charlie Chicken Farms were closed down was the amount of support it took to run them, coupled with the Army's Up or Out, and Screw Up you're Out policies. When we were hurting for line troops, having 1-2 guards per inmate plus the support staff, sitting on the butt at CCF became unacceptable. As for School of the Soldier, like I said we handled our own problems t the PLT/CO level. There was no crying to JAG ,once you showed the trooper where UCMJ called for no 2nd chances, and their only choice was to deal with the CDR or deal with me. I told them that for minor problems, the counselling sheet would disappear in 3-6 months if no more problems. yes it took time to counsel everyone monthly and special occasions, but that's what I called good leadership, and demanded it from all my subordinates.

Response by SP6 Alejandro P made May 28 at 2018 12:39 PM

SP6 Alejandro P — Mon, 28 May 2018 12:39:23 -0400

It seems that these days the Army doesn't even want to try and discipline / rehabilitate anyone , they'd just rather get rid of you. As this discussion goes , they got rid of the post CCF's , they ripped down the old Disciplinary Barracks that housed around 1500 prisoners and replaced it with a new facility with around 400 beds. I was told if your offence is serious enough the Army gives you a DD and hands you over to the Federal BOP.

Response by SFC Kevin Ireland made Feb 7 at 2020 1:15 PM

SFC Kevin Ireland — Fri, 07 Feb 2020 13:15:15 -0500

Most definitely. One of the best 1SG's I ever had spent time in Charlie's Chicken Farm. He credited it with straightening him out enabling him to have a productive career.

Response by SFC Don Ward made May 14 at 2021 10:01 PM

SFC Don Ward — Fri, 14 May 2021 22:01:47 -0400

When did they stop it?? I remember soldiers being sent to Scott Air Force base to CCF in 1989 from Fort Knox, and thought they stopped it about then

Response by SSG N Gi made Sep 1 at 2022 9:35 PM

SSG N Gi — Thu, 01 Sep 2022 21:35:17 -0400

As a young sgt I had to send one of mine there
Tried working with him
As I private I was lucky
I could have gotten much worse
Not just Fin up but getting caught
He came out better but just wasn't military
I think k it helped him