Should the Army's temporary and permanent PT profile system be changed?

2015-02-13T18:37:55-05:00

Should the Army National Guard change how easy it is for soldiers to produce temporary profiles two days before the APFT, and should they start to hammer down on those soldiers who do it consistently every year? I know of soldiers who haven't taken a PT test for two or three years and they keep working the system. I also know many soldiers who have been chronic PT failures in the past and many of them are magically able to convince the doctor to give them a permanent profile, and it would seem it is just a way for them to pass the APFT. There never really seems to be anything physically wrong with them they are just too lazy to get out there and do it for themselves. There are those who genuinely need a profile but many in my opinion do not. I am just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this because I see it as a problem that has plagued the Army for many years.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Feb 13 at 2015 6:42 PM

2015-02-13T18:42:50-05:00

Does the Army not have a temp profile review system? the AF has one called the DAWG where if a member is on profile for their last 4 PT test (two years) it flags them for medical review for possible MEB, malingering, or no action depending on what the board finds.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 13 at 2015 6:53 PM

2015-02-13T18:53:31-05:00

I only spent a year in the National Guard and I will say that I never quite understood the temporary profile system in the Guard since most never went to see a military doctor. However, I came into the Guard with a permanent profile from Active Duty which of course was not an issue.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 9:53 PM

2015-02-13T21:53:38-05:00

yes it needs to change and fast. we have a medic who is obviously over weight and fails the run every time, falls out of every company run, and falls out of the ruck marches. she suddenly received a PP a day prior to her apft, an investigation was done and she didnt even have a sick call slip on record. the problem also is some leadership dont look further into the matter or keep track of profiles. we had a guy use a "no running" TP for almost a year, his leadership just took his word for it. I think if you dont meet the H/W standard and be currently red flagged you should be subject to medical review for separation if you try to get a profile exceeding 30 days or PP. It's only an opinion......

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 10:20 AM

2015-02-14T10:20:49-05:00

I don't think the system needs to change. I think NCOs and officers need to follow the appropriate process. Counsel, counsel, counsel, and then apply the appropriate consequences.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 10:25 AM

2015-02-14T10:25:46-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member - Those that have had issues passing the APFT and receive permanent profiles are still required to perform alternate events. As a result, they are still required to perform the bike, walk, or swim....if they are unable to complete any one of the Soldier Tasks (top part of the profile), then they can STILL be flagged for MEB/PEB.

I would encourage your leadership to appoint a medical readiness NCO or officer to acquaint themselves with AR 40-501, specifically Chapters 3 (retention) and 7 (profiling requirements). As well as Personnel Policy Guidance (PPG) and the various Mods (last I knew was Mod 10 or Mod 11 I think??). This will help them when they are going to deploy so that a bunch of things don't pop on medical readiness.

One thing I will say is to use caution in judging people too. I have a permanent profile as my back is severely screwed up. Some days I'm perfectly functional, others I struggle with basic daily tasks. Even on my bad days, I keep the "normal face" so that only those that really know me can tell that I'm hurting when I'm in public.

The challenges come when you are talking about the balancing act on the personnel rosters from a command level. There is the need to balance medical readiness, but if you try to remove too many people for playing these games, then at times some of your command will look at you adversely because you are either uncaring ("You should try to fix them first") or are unable to retain a minimum percentage of your personnel (percentages are at least 70% before they start considering a roster "in the red", but deployability standards are between 80-95%.). When I mobilized we had a BATTALION that had taken a similar stance to the one you described, and we ended up REFRADDING (sending home) so many Soldiers that they had to combine two units into one. At least one commander/1SG were relieved for cause and various other major adverse actions taken against the chain for failure to maintain mission readiness.

It happens....but it's super important that Soldiers not be allowed to play the system to their advantages, as it affects deployability of the unit as a whole.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 11:57 AM

2015-02-14T11:57:22-05:00

Agreed, this has bern a continual problem in the Army- one that drives real soldiers absolutely insane. While some profiles are legitimate most, in my opinion, are BS. My ultimate pet peeve is the shaving profile. I mean seriously? I hate shaving too, I just get over it 10 seconds after I do it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 9:05 PM

2015-02-14T21:05:13-05:00

I can totally understand your frustration with those that play on the system and seem to get over. SSG Private RallyPoint Member

As 1SG Private RallyPoint Member stated the use of counseling and a file of paperwork. Use it to your advantage.

Another avenue which you could pursue is a BAR to re-enlistment. That may enlighten said individuals into re-thinking their tactics.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-03-14T15:48:09-04:00

It comes down to the MND Process. Profiles from a civilian doctor are not valid until re-issued by an Army Medical Officer. It is a commander's call to honor the profile (err on the side of the injury, most likely). The Soldier should be counseled by the the CDR the same drill and notified that the temp profile will be forwarded to State Surgeon's Office (SSO) and will likely generate a medically non deployable status. SSO can access health records and identify ppssible malingering, if thats the case.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 4:52 PM

2015-03-14T16:52:41-04:00

My opinion: If a soldier has more then one temporary profile within a one year time frame, that soldier should be medically evaluated for fitness to remain in the military

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2016 10:57 AM

2016-10-16T10:57:06-04:00

Firstly...I have always looked at people with profiles as, "That Guy." We had a SSG show up to our mobilization with a, "No Body Armor Profile." You can't really go to IRAQ without body armor.
He was an 11B who had not been an 11B in about 8 years; he was not prepared. Needless to say he did not go with us.

Now the shoe is on the other foot for me. Guess who has the same profile now...
I was doing a 22 mile run and pulled up lame mile 16. I hobbled 8 miles back to my truck and drove home. I decided if I laid off of it for a couple months I would be good.

Started trying to run again with lower miles. Sometimes I could go further than 3 miles, but than I started having problems no matter what at the 1 mile mark.

This is 7 months after my first injury.

and I am 49 years old...

I get an MRI on my right knee and a lot of my cartilage is gone. The left ankle has some issues, but the right knee needs to get fixed. So I have a 3 week AT. I get shot up with cortizone, do the AT, and two days after AT have surgery. I have been on crutches for 6 weeks because of the procedure; no load bearing. I am off crutches next week and start the physical therapy.

So I get the medical assessment back from my Doctor which to me looks like a "Death Sentence;" no running, no rucking, no FLC, no body armor.

So I have sent the paperwork to my unit; but not to the medical SSG in the BN.

I am hoping to talk to the unit to see if they will let me rehab the knee; let me get back to being able to at least drive a car (can't now) so I can do my job as a WSL.

Any Advice?

Response by PO1 Barbara Matthews made Nov 18 at 2017 6:38 AM

2017-11-18T06:38:45-05:00

All this profile stuff seems strange to me as a Navy veteran. I don't remember the Navy having a permanent waiver for the PRT. You might get out of one fitness test but not permanently. If so there would be a Med board or limited duty (for 6 months).

If someone is not fit for duty for an extended period of time why aren't the given a Med Board?

I can see a period of recovery after illness or injury bit if it goes on longer than 6 months or a year then the SM isn't for for duty.

I was separated after 14.5 years of service because I was not able to pass the run portion of the test. I tried but failed. I was within weight standards and ran daily... Just not fast enough. I have no hard feelings about it... Today my knees are shot because of all the running slow as it was.

It does piss me off a little that others can get a way around it and were no better than me because they got a waiver all the time.