Should you receive UCMJ for failing to do required counseling of your subordinates? Officers and Enlisted.

2015-03-16T19:55:35-04:00

We all know how bad counseling is in the context of being done properly and on time. I wanna say at least 5/10 asked would say they haven't even received their initial counseling. This has been tried to be corrected by changing format, but I think it's simply an accountability issue. Peoples hands are being held to the fire and evaluation counseling dates are being basically made up on the due date.
Improper or no counseling can be blamed for many failures department wide. Something so serious should be enforced seriously. For example first offense is summarized article 15. What do you think?

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Mar 16 at 2015 8:05 PM

2015-03-16T20:05:45-04:00

I think UCMJ is an option but first you must be counseled on your poor conduct.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 16 at 2015 8:10 PM

2015-03-16T20:10:27-04:00

I saw a Marine get an NJP for failure to wear a seatbelt in a HMMWV in Kuwait. Actual charge was failure to follow an order.

That's essentially what this is.

But seriously, make the punishment fit the crime.

This is an administrative matter, and should be dealt with administratively. His was a safety matter, and was dealt with accordingly. No one is going to be physically get hurt if someone doesn't get their periodic counselling on time. Does it rate a formal counselling (page 11)? Sure. Do multiple instantances rate annotation on their own periodic counselling statement (FitRep or service equiv)? Hell yes. Does it rate Punitive action which can result in loss of pay, privileges, or rank? No.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 16 at 2015 8:15 PM

2015-03-16T20:15:58-04:00

Sure, I make it a point to do it on time because that is what the reg says.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 8:25 PM

2015-03-16T20:25:42-04:00

I don't think UCMJ is the proper punishment for an offense like this that can be solved by good leadership, counseling / mentorship. Mentorship and counseling that need to be done on a regular basis needs to be supervised and monitored. Someone needs to take charge and make sure it gets done. Otherwise, the daily workload and poor leadership / oversight will place counseling on the backburner.

Source: F/L Div Mentorship NCOIC

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 16 at 2015 8:26 PM

2015-03-16T20:26:03-04:00

Depends... Are they required to counsel you on your not conducting counseling? And if so, and they don't, must they be counseled on not counseling you on your non counseling?

Seriously though, 80% of the Army would be facing UCMJ..

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 9:22 PM

2015-03-16T21:22:44-04:00

As far as I am aware, UCMJ violations are crimes. Should it be a crime for a civilian employer to fail to conduct a quarterly performance review? Probably not. The military is different from a civilian business, but I still don't see how it should be a crime.

There are other enforcement mechanisms. For instance (and just off the top of my head), evaluations could require a sworn statement by both rater and ratee (maybe even senior rater) that initial counseling was done. This would carry with it the penalty of perjury, which is a crime.

I had an RI that, rather crushingly, told me that a failure to inspect is a failure to lead. A failure to counsel is a failure to lead as well. However, failing to lead is not a crime.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 9:35 PM

2015-03-16T21:35:15-04:00

No, but as others have said, it should result in a hit on your performance report.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Mar 16 at 2015 9:52 PM

2015-03-16T21:52:18-04:00

Not only yes, but hell yes..I saw too many soldiers get left behind in the promotion process because the chain failed to properly counsel them, and I saw wayyyyyyy too many slugs be retained in the service because they never were counseled by the chain when they screwed up which resulted in not only poor quality soldiers, but soldiers with attitudes who thought they could get away with anything they wanted.... As a chain of command it is your DUTY to do your job...every aspect of it, if you think your too good or dont have the time or play favoritism...move over and let a real Leader in...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 10:10 PM

2015-03-16T22:10:46-04:00

An NCO should be counseled, if they are not counseling their soldiers, and it should be reflected on the NCOER.

An NCO should be counseling their soldiers all the time, even multiple times throughout a month, and should be putting it in writing.

Remember, Counseling is a tool designed to document deficiencies, but it should ALSO be used to document favorable behavior. If you only do negative counselings, you are not counseling, you are setting the soldier up for failure and making him look like a dirt bag.

If you have a private that is working harder than the others or is showing more maturity than the others, you should sit him down...draw him to the side, and let him know. Then you need to document that praise and get it in his packet.

At the same time, if numbnuts is doing stupid stuff or slacking, you need to pull him/her aside and let them know. Then you need to document that ASAP.

Always ask yourself, what type of Army do you want to be in, it helps you make decisions real quick.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 11:41 PM

2015-03-16T23:41:41-04:00

So, what is defined as failing to counsel? I would argue that we counsel every day, through our interactions, what we say to our Subordinates and what is said to us.

Yes, we probably should write something down, but then I was always taught to take notes when I am being addressed by a senior SM, especially if they are my boss or in my chain of command.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Mar 16 at 2015 11:48 PM

2015-03-16T23:48:09-04:00

One thing I know for sure. If a soldier is not doing his/her job to the standards, you have no leg to stand on when it comes time for their evaluation if no counseling was done. If no standards are set, then how can you hold anyone accountable?

By you as a leader failing to do the proper counseling should be reflected in your evaluation and thus effects you're career. In this age of down sizing, this type of leadership are the ones needing to be let go.

It's not a UCMJ offense, but it should be a career ending offense.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2015 11:48 PM

2015-03-16T23:48:24-04:00

I think leadership should get punished for not doing the right thing and doing the quarterly counsellings. It's a pain in the ass but it will all in all improve the unit. Expectations and goals need to be evaluated. I think leadership is shoddy if they don't. It's a disservice to the organization if we just end up with oers that are pretty mirrored from support form and that's it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2015 12:07 AM

2015-03-17T00:07:47-04:00

Things happen. The mission comes first Not the paperwork.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 17 at 2015 12:19 AM

2015-03-17T00:19:19-04:00

You need to be taken to task, and if you are not doing your job/duty, that should reflect on your OER/NCOER... but UCMJ, for say dereliction of duty... I don't think so; this is why we have evaluations.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2015 12:50 AM

2015-03-17T00:50:17-04:00

When your lack of mentorship is CRIMINAL it's probably time to pick up that DD214....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2015 3:01 AM

2015-03-17T03:01:42-04:00

It never crossed my mind to UCMJ somebody for not conducting counseling. I have noticed that NCOERs take 3-4x longer to deal with because of a lack of counseling. I would say that it should be annotated on an NCOER, but if it were serious...yeah. I'd say UCMJ

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2015 3:11 AM

2015-03-17T03:11:18-04:00

I can count on one hand how many times I have been counseled on paper by my officer raters. I would need a calculator to add up all the times I have been counseled on paper by NCO raters.

Leaders should be inspecting their subordinates counseling packets at least quarterly if not every month. That goes for every level PSG inspecting SLs, 1SG inspecting PLTs, and the CSM spot checking companies. If you are not being counseled by your rater at least quarterly you should be asking for it, if it still isn't happening you should talk with your senior rater. It's hard to write a needs improvement on someone without counseling backing it up, should be just as hard to write an excellence. I made my NCOs send the 2166-8-1 along with the 2166-8 when I reviewed NCOERs prior to signatures, I wanted to see the justification and development of the NCO being rated.

While I think UCMJ is a little harsh initially, after extra training, NCOPDs, counseling on the NCO if the action continues a summarized Art 15 may be justified. Officers should be held to the same standard.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2015 8:21 AM

2015-03-17T08:21:44-04:00

I say yes, but there needs to be a paper trail to justify the UCMJ. I try to counsel my Soldiers the first workday of the month. I also try to help out my fellow NCOs by reminding them that counselings need to be done

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2015 8:50 AM

2015-03-17T08:50:20-04:00

Unfortunately, it's easy for some leaders to ignore or "forget" about counseling when there is no consequence for not doing it. I value getting feedback on aspects of my job that I'm succeeding at, as well as those I need to improve. When leaders put effort into counseling, and not just pencil-whipping a cookie cutter model of one, it makes for better development of Soldiers.

Response by CAPT Stu Merrill made Mar 17 at 2015 11:28 AM

2015-03-17T11:28:52-04:00

UCMJ? That's bringing out the sledge hammer to correct a leadership issue. There is a very viable continuum of evaluation tools available to correct this leadership issue.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Mar 17 at 2015 6:34 PM

2015-03-17T18:34:14-04:00

Society has gotten to the point that they feel it is necessary to regulate everything. I'm strongly opposed to this, as we can not outline every justifiable exception to the rule or special circumstances. Leaders need to hold each other accountable, not mandate harsh punishment for failure to perform one of many duties. For example, I am going on a individual 6-month TDY soon, I will have no DOD supervision. How is my supervisor going to counsel me from 3,000 miles away when his only knowledge of my performance is through email and phone calls?

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Mar 17 at 2015 7:05 PM

2015-03-17T19:05:02-04:00

Wow, I am kinda impressed with the amount of people on different sides of the fence here. I'd like to see a little more debate.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2015 7:14 PM

2015-03-17T19:14:59-04:00

Absolutely

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Mar 17 at 2015 10:05 PM

2015-03-17T22:05:32-04:00

I have always believed Initial Counseling to be the most important. It is imperative for a new leader to lay down their expectations to each member of their new team, and to get input on the expectations of those members of one's team. It is equally important that new members coming on to one's team have a solid understanding of what is expected of them, and of what to expect from you, their leader, and from the other members of the team.

Though it is often difficult to squeeze counseling into our often busy schedules I have always found counseling to be a positive action, where both parties leave with a better understanding of what was done right, or wrong, and with a solid plan of how to make things work better.

I can honestly say that on every occasion I've had to administer "Negative" counseling, I have had no trouble filling out another General Counseling form with something positive the person had done as well. It's important to let our team members know that we don't only recognize the things that need improvement, but also that we recognize the things they do exceptionally well. Though we may often tell members of our team they've done a good job, it is equally important to memorialize the positive, as it is to do so with the negative.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2015 2:51 PM

2015-03-18T14:51:05-04:00

I do believe the NCO or Officer that is not performing his duties to coach, teach and mentor by training the soldiers within his/her organization should receive some for of punishment. Such as a letter of concern initially, then if the situation persists then a letter of reprimand.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2015 6:54 PM

2015-03-18T18:54:05-04:00

Attaching punishment to a something like accountability won't give you the desired effect you are looking for. An internal culture change is what you are looking for...and external influences only get you so far. The problem with counselling doesn't stop with whether it has been performed or not, but includes items that require quality. If I'm going to receive punishment for not doing a task that I either don't have time for or I just plain don't enjoy doing...I'll find a way to get enough done to avoid the punishment. It's just the nature of the carrot stick approach.

The Air Force is trying to change this with a new form that guides the counselor to ask more specific questions. I believe there are additional changes coming down to tie them to some report for accountability as well...which could possibly be tied to UCMJ action under failure to obey. It's a step in a direction...not sure if it'll fix what they are trying to solve though.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2015 10:40 PM

2015-03-19T22:40:22-04:00

Used action is way overboard. No one would be left in service if we did it that way.
I can't say I'm perfect at providing feedbacks. I'm fortunate enough to have daily interaction with all my Airmen. In that way I can provide on the spot, face to face feedback as needed. However, sometimes the formal written feedbacks the AF requires sneak up on you. My real problem is how complicated the written feedbacks are. To properly do a feedback for one Airman can take two days. Depending on schedules it may take longer if we don't have the time to sit down for that long to go over everything on the form. Supervising as many people as I do, it can take me an entire month to provide formal feedbacks to all of them. The AF process needs to be simplified. The last update just made it confusing and more time consuming. In my 12 yrs in service I can probably count on my fingers how many feedbacks I've had. But I'm positive I do a lot more for my people then what's been done for me.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2015 5:50 PM

2015-03-20T17:50:53-04:00

Easy. If you can not do the basic functions of a leader, you should be removed from leadership and this should be annotated in your future NCOER's. I personally, am sick of hearing about toxic leadership and their inability to do their job. How can you counsel a soldier about not doing their job, when you can't even do your own?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2015 2:15 PM

2015-03-27T14:15:13-04:00

If you're not counseling your soldiers as needed, you're failing as a leader, and also hindering your soldier's ability to move on to bigger and better things.

Response by MSG Jay Jackson made May 9 at 2016 2:57 PM

2016-05-09T14:57:47-04:00

No but do as I did once, Got my initial counseling and that was it. Wwhen NCOER time came around someone wanted me to sign the other three counseling for the year, I did, I just dated them all the same day. It was worth the ass chewing though and we both learned a lesson.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 24 at 2018 4:57 PM

2018-04-24T16:57:55-04:00

Is you should be held accountable for counseling failures. It is not only 1 of your duties, but it part of your mentoring- if you fail this, it will only be repeated when your people are promoted.

Response by 1SG Frank Boynton made Jun 26 at 2018 2:38 PM

2018-06-26T14:38:07-04:00

I never got counseling by my NCO’s. However I did get threatened a lot that I’d get Conex Counseling if I didn’t shape up.

Response by MSG Kevin Elliott made Jun 26 at 2018 7:00 PM

2018-06-26T19:00:17-04:00

Not UCMJ, but it should definitely show upon your NCOER/OER. In Korea, it was easy. I would schedule any late counseling sessions in my room, with both my subordinate NCO and his soldiers. I never had the issue in the States or Germany. But then I also set the expectation and the standard. If I felt it was needed, I counseled my NCOs on a monthly, and one time weekly basis. One told me I could only counsel him on a quarterly basis. He had to give a developmental class on counseling to the platoon, after a couple of daily counseling sessions.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jun 26 at 2018 7:49 PM

2018-06-26T19:49:14-04:00

If you are going to hold folks responsible ( which is great) it needs to be in line with everything else. Seldom to give a 1st time offender an ART15. Take it in steps- remember this can/should start showing up on NCOER's. 1. Counsel. 2. Counsel with the remark that it will be reflected in their NCOER. 3. ART15 4. BAR 5. Chapter!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2020 2:43 PM

2020-06-17T14:43:17-04:00

No, UCMJ is for crimes.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2023 6:58 PM

2023-07-12T18:58:53-04:00

I think a ucmj should be given on first offense if not reported the higher ups at my unit are slacking repeatedly at given soldiers Us and counseling which are well deserved in my book. They have been doing that for while too. No one bats an eye. It's a shame.