Standing order for battalion of no drinking and daily evening formation in ASUs. Is this authorized?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 10:38:07 -0400

I'll be blunt, I like my family time. This affects me and my personal time. I don't drink at all. Some soldiers recently made a poor decision and ended up with their car in a secure area where a death of one of them was involved. They were not in my company and I had no way of knowing they needed a ride if and when they did. Yet the entire battalion now has to deal with every day inspection in ASUs in formation every night for the next two weeks. Can anything be done about this form of mass punishment? Or am I just a S#!tb@g who needs to know his place in the unit and keep my mouth shut about unfair treatment?

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Mar 18 at 2019 10:54 AM

LTC Kevin B. — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 10:54:29 -0400

As outlined, I see nothing illegal with that directive.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2019 11:05 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 11:05:05 -0400

You are a Soldier 24/7. If the Commander deems to have these formations in ASU's, then the Commander can certainly do so as long as the order is not illegal, immoral, nor unethical. Is it kind of a dick move? Sure, some would see it that way. Is it a way to get a message across to the masses? It certainly is. Will it be effective? Only time will tell. And, it's not about you being a shitbag Soldier needing to know your place, it's about the Commander conveying in a mass blast the message of safety and getting Leaders to get eyes on troops. While the next two weeks will suck, it's only two weeks. As least the Commander didn't make it permanent.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Mar 18 at 2019 11:07 AM

MSgt Michael Smith — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 11:07:13 -0400

I think you need to deal with it. I don't know all the facts but it sounds to me like there is a Commander here who is trying to emphasize the importance taking care of each other. The needless death of someone under your command is a serious, heart-wrenching issue. I'm sure there were a lot of questions up and down the coc about who could have known, spoke out, taken action, or showed concern prior to this horrible event happening. Whether or not there as something that could have been done really isn't the point though. Your leadership wants to ensure that this never happens again, and part of that is everyone realizing the seriousness of the issue.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2019 11:53 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 11:53:01 -0400

I appreciate the quick replies, everyone. Thank you for giving clarity on the subject. I'm all for helping a fellow soldier out if they need a ride after being drunk, but sometimes it's just out of my hands I guess.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2019 12:32 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 12:32:34 -0400

Bad decisions have a blast radius. A soldier under your BC's command died. That is serious business and he is taking it that way. Suck it up and drive on.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Mar 18 at 2019 4:30 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 16:30:28 -0400

Look at AR350-1, 600-20 and FM 6-22.

Inspection in ASUs every evening from now till eternity..... Check. No drinking..... Check.

The Commander can schedule inspections whenever they want. You folks will by the end of the two weeks be able to disassemble and reassemble your ASUs to standard. I guarantee someone will always be able to find something wrong with any number of Soldiers uniforms at any formation.
The Commander can pull your drinking privileges because you are on regular pass every evening from COB to First call. Part of Pass is the ability to consume alcohol if you are of age. The Commander controls passes.

Would I have recommended this course of action to the Commander... No. If after recommending another course of action to the Commander and being told to drive on would I have executed this course of action with vigor.... Yes.

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 18 at 2019 7:46 PM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 18 Mar 2019 19:46:26 -0400

I have used mass punishment before. But it was after addressing unit wide trends, on multiple occasions, where all or most of the Marines in the unit were in a position to address the infraction. The fact that you were conscious that you had no way of knowing leads me to believe YOU ARE NOT A S#!tb@g. But, unfortunately, this falls within commander's prerogative. Just because a CO can, does not mean he or she should.

My recommendation: When you become a unit leader, remember this moment when you are deciding if unit punishment is or is not appropriate. Soldier on.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Mar 19 at 2019 1:05 AM

LTC Jason Mackay — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 01:05:32 -0400

The Command is well within their authority to do so. The Commander is required to maintain good order and discipline and does this through subordinate officers and the NCO support channel ala AR600-20. How they get there is largely up to them. They can work you 24-7 if the Command deems it necessary to the mission or maintaining good order and discipline (emphasis on discipline). You also don't know what else happened to get here. This didn't happen in isolation. The perception is apparently that your battalion is indisciplined and this is an attempt to instill some pride and discipline. They could have called an alert and rolled the battalion to the field and worked on warrior tasks and drills to enhance discipline and Soldier readiness. Lay in a perimeter, dig fighting positions to standard...recovery them and jump to a new location and rinse lather repeat. You could roll back in after some amount of time, do an all hands thorough recovery followed by a 100% inventory and layout of TA50 followed by a 100% layout and inventory of the organizationally hand receipt. Chow mermited to the motor pool. Profiles craftily assigned duties that do not violate the profile like given a cleaning implement 0.01 oz lighter than their lifting profile or handed a tooth brush to clean temper tents on a creeper so they don't hurt their back. Stress test every Family Care Plan. So it could always Be worse. I'm not advocating for this either, just as likely, it could be this TOO.

Can anything be done?
- Sure, you and the other 1199 guys in your battalion don't screw up as soon as this round is over.
- Take the opportunity to ensure your ASUs are tight
- Take the opportunity to clean up people in your squad whose ASUs aren't tight.
- the next time an Epic story is about to be born, remind them of this unpleasantness.

You may or may not be a sh!tbag. I don't know you, but inclined to think you care so you are likely not a sh!tbag. I would not die in this particular obstacle belt. Take Some initiative and leadership. Get peers squared away. There are so many worse things than ASU inspections for two weeks. Remember this if you are ever a 1SG or CSM. How would you solve the problem(s)?

As for the drinking prohibition, when I was in 11th ACR at NTC! No drinking for the Regiment from last RSOI day until TD14. Every month. Whether you were supporting downrange or not. Also had to do this while on two years of DSCA standby. Two weeks on, two weeks off or on a valid DA31. The Command can easily do this.

I leave you with this. Unless they are serving craft beer and Cuban cigars, this is punishment for ever Leader in the formation too. Someone has to conduct the inspection, lead the inspector through, take down the gigs and follow up on the resolution.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Mar 19 at 2019 4:51 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 04:51:02 -0400

This has been well addressed, so I won't go over the same points. But I will add one. If you are in a TL position, or if you take one over in this unit, THIS becomes part of your safety brief. "Look, folks. We have seen what happens when someone in the unit makes epically poor decisions. Be a good battle buddy, don't be the one who brings that level of pain on everyone else."
Believe it or not, that message DOES make PVT Snuffy think twice before being epically stupid.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Mar 19 at 2019 10:53 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 10:53:11 -0400

Tragic event, but it's a local level thing. I got caught up in a worldwide blast perimeter, Tailhook '91. That had to do with the sexual assaults at an annual convention that the Navy aviators would go to. The sledge hammer was immediate. It didn't matter who you were, or if you ever went to Las Vegas, promotions were held up for all Naval officers until individual screenings could be done. It went on for years. I had to certify under oath that I wasn't a participant or within driving distance of Las Vegas. It was a guilty before proven innocent drill. I watched promotions get delayed/denied for a long time after the screenings because some admin twerk for some reason tossed the paperwork. If you weren't cleared, your name was struck from the promotion list. You got to go to the next board but were above zone, hence had a lower chance. There wasn't much policy on making sure people weren't hosed because it was all about external damage control. Morale was hammered for around 5 years until the Secretary decided enough was enough. A lot of people who were unjustly pushed out are bitter to this day. Obviously it was worse for aviators who were at that convention but committed no crime. Guilt by association ended many of their careers.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Mar 19 at 2019 10:58 AM

CW4 Craig Urban — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 10:58:38 -0400

He is full of shit

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2019 1:26 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 13:26:24 -0400

Is it on the training schedule? If not, then you might have a case. Ive seen CDRs at various echelons get called to the carpet because they kept troops after duty hours and did not submit an ETP. The garrison and corps CDRs liked to spot check.

Response by CPL Mark Andersen made Mar 19 at 2019 4:34 PM

CPL Mark Andersen — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 16:34:20 -0400

That is not unfair treatment, that is the Army. I remember being called out on alert on a Sunday because the Saturday night before there were 17 DUIs in the battalion. Sucks, but it gets the point across.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2019 5:12 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 17:12:12 -0400

SSG(P) James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" MSG Tom Earley Right you are SPC Private RallyPoint Member

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Mar 19 at 2019 6:28 PM

Lt Col Charlie Brown — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 18:28:35 -0400

As a former commander with a transportation squadron (i.e. get a DUI/lose your license, you can't do your job) I made it clear that DUIs were unacceptable. I gave everyone the option to call the shirt or myself for a ride at ANY hour, we handed out taxi chits that the cab drivers would accept and turn in to get paid by the squadron. Still someone chose to drive under the influence. So we had an early Sunday morning in Class As. The guilty party got to speak and I said, if anyone else does this you lose a month of Sundays for everyone. You know who drinks, don't let them drive. And they didn't. They dropped him back at the squadron with his hands tied...oh well.

Response by PVT Mark Zehner made Mar 19 at 2019 6:29 PM

PVT Mark Zehner — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 18:29:34 -0400

GI means you do as they say well it use to. Just do it don't say a word it's only 2 weeks not a lifetime and your Superiors will think better of yo for it

Response by SPC David S. made Mar 19 at 2019 8:00 PM

SPC David S. — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 20:00:47 -0400

Secure area with one SM dead - I'm sure some body called the BN CO and asked WTF chuck.
While I understand your pain - seems BN CO is sending a message - if one of you FU and put him in the hot seat he'll make life less the fun.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2019 8:58 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 20:58:13 -0400

The actual question's already been answered. This is just a comment: Treat Soldiers like children, they might act like children. Treat them like grown-ups, they will probably act like grown-ups. But that's me.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Mar 19 at 2019 9:42 PM

CW4 Craig Urban — Tue, 19 Mar 2019 21:42:38 -0400

The battalion is full of shit. Off duty it up to you

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Mar 20 at 2019 12:53 AM

LTC Stephen F. — Wed, 20 Mar 2019 00:53:00 -0400

Thank you SPC Private RallyPoint Member for posting and (1) making us aware that you don't drink alcohol; (2) soldiers from another company in your battalion recently made a poor decision that ended up a secure area where a death of one of them occurred after they drove their car inside.
A. I expect those soldiers have been punished or are in the process of being in a court martial to be tried for this accidental death as well as breaking into a secure area.
B. The fact that the entire battalion every night inspection in ASUs in formation for the next two weeks. The fact that entire battalion goes through the inspection is much fairer than focusing on the platoon or company of the soldiers who violated the secure area.
C. I expect the soldiers who violated the secure area where from more than one unit [company, platoon]
Thank you, my friend SSgt Private RallyPoint Member for mentioning me.
What do you think? LTC John Shaw COL Mikel J. Burroughs LTC Private RallyPoint Member

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 20 at 2019 12:52 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:52:21 -0400

I'd have to say, sucks to be you. You've been caught up in a situation over which you have no control. The BN Commander can order these formations in whatever uniform he or she deems appropriate. Learn from the experience. Keep a positive attitude and don't become part of the problem. Wear the ASU correctly and proudly. BTW, fair isn't really a consideration here; it doesn't have to be "fair" in anybody's mind but the Commander.

Response by SGT Brad Baier made Mar 20 at 2019 1:55 PM

SGT Brad Baier — Wed, 20 Mar 2019 13:55:44 -0400

It sucks, but some military personal still believe in punishing the masses. A form of checks and balances so everyone checks on everyone else to keep them in line.