The citizen soldier's dual capacity. Two bosses to please.

2013-12-03T20:54:47-05:00

As much as the National Guard and Reserves have been serving they have been put in chaotic employment situations. Some employers are hostile to their employees but mask it by terminating for other reasons. I have had to leave a job due to this. This make membership in the NG or Reserves extremely difficult especially when you support a family. I have had one employer terminate me; not realizing it was illegal. After some assistance from the ESGR the situation was corrected. You could imagine what it is going to be like when I return there.

Many of us being in the National Guard or the Reserved how do you deal with this? Is this something that you have thought about before joining the Guard or Reserves? Have you had issues with this? Did you leave the military all together due to this? I can say that our retention in the Guard suffers for this reason. I have seen some awesome soldiers leave the Guard due to how it limits their potential in the civilian work force.

National Guard Members Struggle To Keep Civilian Careers

National Guard soldiers live in two worlds: They can be deployed in a crisis, but must support themselves and their families with civilian jobs. That's made harder by the guard's unpredictable needs.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 9:09 PM

2013-12-03T21:09:28-05:00

I am sorry that you are going this, and I am lucky to say that my employer has always been supportive. However, this is a HUGE issue with the USAR/NG, especially with the "operational" reserve which our leaders desire. It's a tough sell to tell employers that, on pain of litigation, they must suffer through the caprice of the services. In the 75 months that I've served, I've been gone for 24 I've been gone for 6 months, 4 months, and 14 months at a time. They have started to ask for documentation for things such as the Commander's and 1SG's Course, which I took in June. Who can blame them? It isn't easy finding a replacement, even if it's just for a week. They also don't understand why the Army doesn't just schedule me for training in the summer (I'm a teacher).

All of this is to say that I've been blessed, but my school is getting annoyed. While they can't really do too much about it, they are the employer who pays my bills. It's an interesting calculus we have to play. Good luck.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 1:33 PM

2014-03-28T13:33:43-04:00

Your not alone LT, but I will share my experiences and some things I have done. 1) To first talk about your current employer. Many employers have the "one weekend a month two weeks a year" mentality, as an officer or senior NCO it's more than that. Employers want to know in advance and here is why. You manager can schedule around training if they know well in advanced. If they won't budge, hit them with orders if your in, they try to fire you while your in training and that will be a nightmare they don't want. Not something I recommend though. But if in that situation start looking for a new job, because they will find a way to let you go. I had a manager that anything other than AT he would always come back with the "I thought this was 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year", and then say he supports the military. He doesn't and you and I know that. It's one reason I left. My current company is more supportive but I do let them know in advance of training because for managers it's about scheduling. 2) As a new LT your career path and you wear the blue chord like I do. (Well my pic was for the promotion board but I wear one.....LOL). 1) IOBC. (I did BOLC 2,3, but I think it's 16 weeks again) 2) Maneuver Career Course. (reserve component (2) 2 week phases) 3) Army War College (1 year)     -- ILE for majors was implemented into AWC I didn't even mention airborne, air-assault, ranger school, or combatives 1,2,3 which everybody wants to do. (hooaah stuff) 3) Some things that you can do with additional training listed above.      a) Use your vacation time on top of schools. I did this in January for my TCC (Tactics Certification Course) which was a week long. I gave my manager my orders anyways but I was technically on vacation. The good part doing this is you get double paid (double dipping).      b) Plan and space things out. Too many schools can look like you never there, but space them out and you will be seen as always on the job, with some military training. They will find a way if they want to get rid of you. Don't give them a reason.      c) Know the deadlines of your projects and space schools around dead time. You don't want to kill the good graces of your employer and burn bridges by scheduling schools near a deadline where they NEED you. That is a recipe for disaster.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2014 5:07 PM

2014-03-29T17:07:05-04:00

LT Rosa, I have had similar experiences with
several of my employers. There is lots
of great advice here, and make sure you
read LTC Stoneking's piece above.

Bottom line: Many civilian employers don’t understand, but in
educating them you have to tread lightly.
Be assertive, but not a jerk.
Help them learn, and praise them for it.
If you have an employer, or even a supervisor that wants to work
with you, go to the ESGR website and put them in for award.

Battalion Commander at 1-364 RGT, 191st IN BDE | Military Profile | RallyPoint

See the full military profile of this Battalion Commander at 1-364 RGT, 191st IN BDE, stationed at Joint Base Lewis-McChord (JBLM), WA | RallyPoint professional military profile.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 7:54 PM

2014-04-16T19:54:37-04:00

I have seen a sea change in how the National Guard is viewed by employers. I was shocked the first time one of my Soldiers came to me and asked if he had to disclose his Guard status on a resume. We have come from the point where NG service was a point of pride to a point of apprehension. I believe there are a number of reasons for this.

The first problem is that National Guardsmen have very stiff competition from Veterans. Competition you say? Indeed. Imagine you are an employer: Patriotic, God Fearing, Apple-Pie eating employer, with one of those "Support the Troops" bumper stickers. How much are you going to pay to back up those words on that bumper sticker? If you hire a Guardsman, you hire the liability of potential future deployments, uncertain availability, potential for additional training, etc. Meanwhile, you can hire a Veteran, get all those military skills, take advantage of the warm glow of patriotism, and not risk losing an employee for two weeks out of the year.

Unfortunately, Guard service has the effect of narrowing employment options. Small companies will not be able to effectively employ Guardsmen. I experienced this at a small company where I worked as an account manager. If I went away, someone had to take my clients. When I returned, the clients might just not want to work with the old guy anymore. New clients are not going to be assigned to the manager with the least reliability.

Fundamentally, an employer makes an employment decision based on risk vs. reward. How much risk will I incur in hiring, training, and potentially losing an employee vs. how much value can he employee return? Applicants need to address this equation by directly addressing perceived and real liabilities vs. concrete advantages and unique value the prospective employee can bring.

Now here's the golden question:

How do YOU, a Guardsman, differentiate the unique value and advantage YOU bring to an employer vs. a Veteran whose service obligation is complete? If you can answer that question, you will have an advantage in the hiring process and can probably also go on the lecture circuit.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 8:32 AM

2014-04-17T08:32:53-04:00

Yes, I totally agree with your statement of two bosses to please. I'm in the Coast Guard, cross assigned to the Navy. I'm at the point of serving three bosses. I have to constantly juggle to keep all three happy. Occasionally I even have to make the point of explaining that YES, the Coast Guard is a branch of the military (mostly credit companies when I try to lower interest rates). Training aside, it's a nearly a full time job working with the Navy unit. Honestly I think my employer has taken pity on me.

For me, education and planning are the keys. I let them know how it works (and I'm in a unit that is granted additional drills to make this more complicated) and when I'll be out. The more advance of a notice the better. I also plan as best as possible to have the least amount of impact to them. I'm in law enforcement and for a time this was perfect. There were quite a few of me on a shift. At any given time one or two would be out and that was no problem. As I got promoted and eventually changed agencies I now have a job where I'm the only guy who does what I do. This makes things that much more difficult.

While I don't have as many training situations as you do, I have extra "during the week" drill days. For those I let them know as far in advance as possible. I also try to use vacation for those and my military leave for my 15 days of AT each year. That way I have even less issues at work. Does this mean I get less actual vacation time each year? Yes, but I chose to be in the military. I chose to have two careers. I'm also very aware of the strain it puts on the rest of the team I work with. I chose to serve and don't find it fair others have to pull my work load (non-supervisor types) because I made this decision to serve. So I do things for those in the office. Bring in candies, be extra attentive, go out of my way for them so they know I appreciate their support.

It's a constant juggle. Be aware of your impact on both your civilian and military employers. I rarely tell the military no but I have and I will. I chose to be a reservist, not a full time military member. The military by their very nature rarely plans for anyone but themselves and that's not reality (yeah yeah..not talking about war and the like). That's a mistake that a lot of reservists (usually officers and senior enlisted) make. We are in the reserves and while there is more expected of us than our 2 days a month and 2 weeks a year, we chose to be part-timers. Our civilian careers are just as important to us and our families and typically have a bigger impact on our lives. Don't neglect one for the other. Treat them with equal respect and hopefully it will turn out ok for you.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 1:37 AM

2014-11-14T01:37:38-05:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member I came close to losing my job a couple months ago when I went on ADOS orders for a month. I'm about to go on ADOS again for a couple months so I'll be let go here. Unfortunately, ESGR does not apply overseas.
My last employer was amazing being that half of their employees were vets or current servicemen. The summer was always difficult for them b/c all of us Guard guys would go to AT with many of us from the same Squadron. They never complained though.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2014 11:14 PM

2014-11-15T23:14:12-05:00

Competition for jobs in the private market is ever increasing, while requirements for Reserve Soldiers are also increasing. Many companies simply cannot operate with an employee that leaves for unknown amounts of time sporadically throughout the year, so put yourself in their shoes. Though legally you have employment rights, just imagine having to deal with a random schedule.

I worked as an Assistant Manager for a Target and it was difficult to even go to drill. Sure, they had to work around my schedule, but that just means a fellow assistant manager has to pick up my shift. And since we are salaried, they wouldn't get paid anymore, so they were not too happy with it.

If you could get an AGR job, that would be great, as long as you can be mobile and be reassigned every few years.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2014 3:05 AM

2014-11-16T03:05:04-05:00

I worked for a smaller company for several years before I enlisted in the Guard at 25. While they technically complied, and told me, "We support the military 100%" the way I was treated changed. It was mostly subtle, but it came to a head when I went to WLC. I told my supervisor about it, giving him a few weeks notice, but somehow the paperwork "got lost," so they didn't know that I was leaving, and I wasn't giving them proper notice. Anyway, when I left for deployment, I quit. It just wasn't worth the headache anymore.
On the one hand I did feel quite frustrated about the situation, but I do have to sympathize with them, as I was one of 3 service techs covering a large territory, and they were up a creek when I was gone, and the other two guys had to put in a lot overtime to cover for me.
I'm going to be looking for work in earnest in January, and I plan to either try to become self employed, work for a government agency, or work for a large enough company that they can cover for me without stressing other employees.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2014 7:13 PM

2014-11-16T19:13:27-05:00

Sir, I am facing this possibility currently. I am critically skilled employee at the Veterinary Hospital I work for. Up to now, my AT and occasional 3 day weekends have been an annoyance but dealt with.

Now that I am up for WO selection, there is a whole new ballgame. If I get selected I have to decided if I should attend WOCC though the nearby RTI, which is more employeer friendly, but delays my eventual pinning of the WO1 rank. Or I could go for the 5 weeks at Mother Rucker, which I am told is the better way to get my training. But that hurts my employer more. Beyond that, I will have WOCS at my Branch school for 10 weeks.

We had a lead technician take about 12 weeks for Maternity leave and managed to deal just fine so I won't feel too bad taking the 10 if I get that far. Sometimes I feel a bit guilty tipping the balance towards the military side and I keep telling myself that the Law is on my side. I have heard a counter argument from a coworker that because I choose to go for WO, I chose the consequences for my employer (as opposed to say being mobilized).

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2014 11:02 PM

2014-11-16T23:02:27-05:00

All I can say is that's BS. There are laws that prohibit employers from terminating an employee on the grounds of obligation to military duty.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2016 12:12 PM

2016-01-05T12:12:15-05:00

I always give my employer an exact copy of the law. They can't argue with me or challenge me. Most employers know the information but there are some out there who don't.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2017 10:26 PM

2017-11-21T22:26:59-05:00

Just two bosses? Civilian work (teacher), Navy, attached to USCG D1, ordained and endorsed by a church denomination, married with kids...5 bosses! Lol. As a former boss said, CIVCOM and FAMCOM are pretty important. Or as my first reserve CO, now a 1-star Admiral, said, “the key to success in the Navy Reserves is to keep your job, the Navy, and your family equally ticked off at you.” I am blessed, as the leading bishop of my denomination is a retired GA Natl Guard chaplain, and my school district superintendent is the wife of a retired SC Natl Guard Col. When i returned from ODF she told me to stay at home for 3 days to take care of my wife and son. Not the greatest pay, but it lets me be teacher, pastor, and military.