The Marines Defend Their Women

2014-08-14T13:09:36-04:00

I asked a former female Marine if she had experienced an overwhelming amount of sexual harassment/assault while she served in the Corps. To my extreme surprise this was her response (paraphrased of course):

No. No, not at all. One time I was in the barracks and a guy in my unit snuck into my room and tried forcing himself on me. I started screaming and within a few seconds this whole crowd of Marines came barging into my room and carried him off. They’re my brothers, why would they let anyone hurt me?

Now THAT is honor and loyalty.

This brought tears to my eyes for two reasons.
Reason One: I was so overwhelmed and happy these Marines heard a fellow Marine in trouble and they came running to her rescue. There was no hesitation, no passive intervention and no second thoughts. That's just mind-blowing to me.
Reason Two: My mind was blown because very rarely has a male Soldier stood up for me like that. Matter of fact, I rarely hear any male Soldiers stand up for women like that.

I was raised where men watch their mouths around women, men hold open doors for ladies, and men take out the trash while women wash the dishes. I understand and learn more every day how the military is far from being the Southern paradise where knights in shining armor rescue damsels in distress. I also understand some women don’t like being treated that way. Roger, tracking.

Maybe those Marines who busted in her room didn’t care that she was a woman, they just heard one of their fellow Marines in trouble. Regardless of why, their actions and her response portrayed a very different world from what I know in the Army and that saddens me.

Is it sexist for me to expect male Soldiers to stand up for female Soldiers? Maybe so.

Is it too much to ask for Soldiers to stand up for Soldiers, regardless of gender? I don't think so.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Aug 14 at 2014 1:46 PM

2014-08-14T13:46:33-04:00

how do we build that into the Army?

Response by SSG Steven Borders made Aug 14 at 2014 2:05 PM

2014-08-14T14:05:51-04:00

I don't if it is because the Marines is a smaller branch and don't take just anybody unlike the Army. I know I would not hesitate to save a fellow Soldier Male or Female. I have quite a few that are like sisters to me. And I would do anything for them at a drop of the hat.

Maybe because I am older and joined at 31, I really don't know. There has to be more out there that think the same way I do? Great questions SSG Woods.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Aug 14 at 2014 2:17 PM

2014-08-14T14:17:26-04:00

One has to wonder what the sleeping arrangements were where this guy could sneak up to her and do that.

When I first entered the Corps back in '79, the women stayed in separate barracks and we didn't have them mixed in with the guys. If you were caught at their barracks, it was office hours. Anyone visiting had to do so through the duty personnel at the Quarterdeck and then you weren't allowed up to the room. They called the person down to see you. When I retired back in 2000, the military was still trying to figure out what to do with women.

By 2000, they had for the most part transitioned from open squadbay type barracks to motel style Dorms (entrances were on the outside) and they were starting to mix up men and women at the barracks. You could be in a 2 man room next to 2 women in a room... and you know what happens then. The last unit I was in had an incident where one of the girls wanted to have sex with a bunch of the guys and she ended up giving them Chlamydia. There literally was a line outside her door of guys waiting to have sex with her. Frankly, I just don't think we gain anything by trying so hard to integrate men and women in the military -- especially in the infantry and when it comes to women in combat.

In my opinion (which is more old school), it's just easier to keep women out of the front lines than have to deal with stuff like that. Am not against women being in the military but let's be honest, they aren't built to take the same punishment men are, and we aren't gaining a thing by sticking them in the infantry. Unfortunately this degradation of our combat effectiveness is being forced on us by liberals in Congress.

I don't believe we should be mixing women up with the men where they sleep and I trust that the Marines who intervened on this girls behalf did what they had to do to make sure this guy never tries that again.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 2:41 PM

2014-08-14T14:41:39-04:00

Wouldn't the answer have been yes, beacause "a guy in my unit snuck into my room and tried forcing himself on me".

I am pleased that nothing happened and that her fellow Marines rescued her, but having that incident is obviously an example of the issue.

Many people in her situation would not have screamed and would not have known what to do. That would have made this a whole different situation.

Response by Cpl Robert Clark made Aug 14 at 2014 2:44 PM

2014-08-14T14:44:21-04:00

Outstanding! I heard that from a few female Marines... makes me proud once again.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 2:45 PM

2014-08-14T14:45:59-04:00

We Marines are a different bred that is for sure. Maybe the other branches should take a hard look at what works for the Marine Corps. The Corps ideas and teachings are not for everyone but they work. Man or women we all have respect for each other. No Marine left behind!

Response by Cpl Christopher Allen-Shinn made Aug 14 at 2014 2:47 PM

2014-08-14T14:47:04-04:00

As a Marine veteran, I agree. The Corps trains you to see all Marines as your brothers and sisters, to be willing to die for them if necessary, and to trust that they will back you to the death. Although the culture of the Corps is generally more conservative than the other services, we also have the smallest percentage of women (about 20%, I believe) in our ranks and we respect those who are able to earn the title, male or female. Furthermore, Marines are segregated by gender in recruit training and Marine Combat Training, so that there is no possibility of fraternization during those initial months of training. While I have no doubt that the occasional bad apple acts out, I also have faith that fellow Marines would step in to squelch that foolishness just as you described. Oorah!

Response by Cpl Michael Strickler made Aug 14 at 2014 2:59 PM

2014-08-14T14:59:42-04:00

I am happy to hear that nothing happened to your friend and I am happy to hear that someone came to her aid, but i am disgusted by the fact that someone in her unit tried something. Though that is an individuals actions making an entire organization look bad I still feel an absurd amount of sadness that she even had that experience.

Towards defending women in general it is difficult, as you say. Some women do not wish for the 'chivalry' anymore and some wish for the same standards as men just in the workplace. There will always be differences in opinion in how these topics should be addressed and these issues go well beyond the military. I have always held doors open for anyone behind me, just out of kindness, and i remember one instance where a female darn near jumped down my throat while I stood there holding the door open for her; 'I don't need no man...' etc.
which is true, haha, but she sure did need a couple more English classes hahaha

All I know is that if the first boy my daughter brings home does not call me sir and hold the door for her when they leave I am squirting ketchup on his shirt...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 3:17 PM

2014-08-14T15:17:14-04:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods,

I think your final question "Is it too much to ask for Soldiers to stand up for Soldiers, regardless of gender?" best sheds light on the issue and our failure as an organization to foster the proper mentality. Look at how we speak- "female soldiers, male soldiers, etc." Remove the adjective from the daily lexicon, and begin to remove it as a way to differentiate soldiers. We don't say "black soldier" as a means to differentiate, why should we say "female soldier"?

Soldier is the proper noun, let's begin to use it for everyone the same a way Marine refers to another Marine.

Thank you for bringing this up. Now that we have welcomed females into the artillery world I can help lead by example in my unit and help foster a positive environment.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Aug 14 at 2014 3:41 PM

2014-08-14T15:41:47-04:00

I really appreciate all of your feedback.

I have been in the Army for five years. I am a trusting, passive, single, friendly woman. All of that combined...well without going into too much detail, let's just say I'm a friggin subject matter expert on sexual harassment and sexual assault.

This constant pitting men against women in the Army has got to stop.

When you hear guys say they don't even want to talk to females because they'll catch a SHARP complaint. It's important to stop this absurd way of thinking that women are always guilty of this. I promise you, regardless of how well you think you know your friends, if there's an allegation, there's some validity there.
I repeat, usually.

This whole double standard issue of women getting away with stuff that men can't (like forcing males to do the manual labor while females sit and relax), yeah that has to stop too. Females are extremely hard on other females so for example, if a female senior NCO sees me sitting pretty while everybody else is working, you better believe that female is going to chew my butt. In my experience, it's these females who feel they have to prove something who are the ones who do most of the work! I'm the one who has to tell them to let the guys do some work lol.

We women have to stop being so hard on other women too because we're only fostering this separation between sexes. We have to stop degrading each other and stop telling each other that we bring sexual harassment on ourselves. Recognize that we are guilty of sexually harassing men too and put a stop to it.

It's this mentality that it's male versus female soldier that continues to separate us.

For all those politically correct folks, here's your disclaimer: I am speaking generally. I am tracking that males get assaulted and harassed too but I am not a man and I have not experienced that, therefore I don't speak on their behalf.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Aug 14 at 2014 3:49 PM

2014-08-14T15:49:22-04:00

A soldier or any SM is not defined by component, role or gender but by their actions. We need to adopt the Marine philosophy and apply it to all branches -You first and foremost are a Marine/Soldier/Sailor/Airman/Coast Guardsman (for lack of a better non-gender biased reference) above and before anything else.

No one is a NG or Reserve soldier, they are a soldier in the Guard or Reserves. There are no Infantry soldiers or Signal soldiers there are soldiers whose primary MOS is Infantry or Signal. There are no male soldiers or female soldiers but there are soldiers that are of those genders. Its all in how it's stated and portrayed. Perception is everything.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Aug 14 at 2014 3:50 PM

2014-08-14T15:50:22-04:00

I just want to add that I am part of the problem too.

A battle buddy of mine believed he saw someone continuously sexually harassing me. Without my knowledge or permission, he reported it to our company on my behalf.
I was pulled out of bed in the middle of the night without being told why, and then humiliated in front of my command about the situation. I was basically told I was a bad leader because I hadn't put a stop to the sexual harassment. I was mortified but completely used to this type of reaction.
So the next day I told that battle buddy of mine that I never wanted to speak to him again and I told him he should have never said anything. The sad part is he couldn't have known it would get handled that way. He tried standing up for me and now I fear he will never report things like this again.

Response by CW3 Clayton C. made Aug 14 at 2014 4:19 PM

2014-08-14T16:19:29-04:00

Having experienced the Marine Corps and the Army, I have a brief explanation. The Corps has always instilled a little something extra about the Marine Corps family. You always look out for one another because it's the right thing to do. To a Marine, having your integrity in question is worse than death. If a Marine lacks integrity, they are often times hidden away from everyone until their time in service ends. Attempting to violate the rights of another Marine is almost a death sentence... or at least it used to be. I've noticed that Soldiers either aren't being taught that kind of loyalty or they just don't care. Neither would surprise me. I'm not saying that all Soldiers are bad, and maybe it's that our service is larger. Personally, I have worked with some of the best leaders, soldiers, and mentors the Army has to offer. But I know there are more bad apples here. I know this from the friends I have that are in different career fields here in the Army. They too seem to be SMEs on sexual harrasment and assault. I also come from a southern paradise where people are treated with dignity and respect. Where people wave and say hello to everyone, even complete strangers. Chivalry is alive and well back home. But in the military service it's a different ball game. I honestly believe it's a loyalty issue. You'd never try to take advantage of someone to whom you have serisously pledged your undying loyalty.

Response by SSG Robin Rushlo made Aug 14 at 2014 4:26 PM

2014-08-14T16:26:37-04:00

Trust me the women that served with and around me, they always were backed up and protected when I was around. Their aare a few men missing teeth for how they treated them and I think I still have a few teeth pieces in my knuckles. Also as a VET they know I have there back no matter what period .

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 14 at 2014 4:34 PM

2014-08-14T16:34:44-04:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods This is a great question and I clearly see both sides. I see females literally holding their C of C hostage because of their unwillingness to boot a troop out who is a living, breathing waste of oxygen in a uniform. I have seen lines out side of doors in the barracks for "trains" without even knowing what that meant. I get hammered for insisting that females carry their own toolboxes to the flight-line when they can't pass a PT test. There are marriage vows breaking left and right. My favorite leadership failure was a dual military couple who loved to beat on each other and their kids. As the command had them separated with a no-contact order, the female soldier turned up pregnant....on two separate occasions. As an EOR, I tracked complaints and was privy to more info than I cared to know. More damage happened in the unit from others who became powerless to act because they knew that the command would not act impartially. I am purposely being vague, but you get the gist. People think that they can only talk to the C of C or do a Congressional. Command Climate! Don't do your mandatory quarterly training and think that you have checked the box. Get the POSH/EO/SHARP guys to poll the unit. They have the tools required to gather information from within the organization. I've been out of the loop for too long to talk specifics anymore, so I digress.

Response by MSG(P) Michael Warrick made Aug 14 at 2014 4:42 PM

2014-08-14T16:42:07-04:00

The Marines are a very close knitted group of Soldiers that do take care of one another. The Army used to be that way but now it is no longer that way, everyone is just about themselves.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 4:51 PM

2014-08-14T16:51:35-04:00

This brought tears to my eyes because I was sexually harassed when I was in the Army, which is why I didn't stay in and got the hell out as soon as I could. I am proud to have served, but am still upset at how my NCO's treated treated women as sex objects. I was really angry for a number of years about it and went into a bit of a depression when I got out because I was poor growing up, and going in the Army was a way for me to get my college paid for and build a career. Years later I realize not every NCO is like that.

Response by SGT Mitch McKinley made Aug 14 at 2014 4:57 PM

2014-08-14T16:57:25-04:00

I could not agree with you more.

But to play devil's advocate...if a male were to stick up for a female simply because she was a female, there is a fear/stigma that they would be assuming that said female was less than capable of handling herself and needs a man to come to her rescue, and that there could be an E/O complaint following.

I too was raised to be respectful and chivalrous with women, hold the door, watch my mouth, etc. But considering the issues of equality in the military, I always tried to see each soldier as a soldier rather than male or female.

Now, that being said, if I saw a male treating a woman with less than respect, I would certainly speak up, but I would word it in a way that the female didn't feel belittled, but in a way that the offending soldier knew they were wrong for treating another person so disrespectfully.

On the topic of force as you mentioned it...that is a different story. Physical aggression against a woman is never acceptable, except in matters of legitimate self defense. And it prides me to hear that these Marines would not stand still and let it happen.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Aug 14 at 2014 6:45 PM

2014-08-14T18:45:41-04:00

I don't think it's too much to ask at all. Soldiers should stand up for soldiers in trouble, period.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Aug 14 at 2014 7:12 PM

2014-08-14T19:12:22-04:00

Actually, it is sexist asking the questions the way you did. With that said, I think we are weaker as a Nation because we have come to see being sexist as always being bad?

Is it sexist for me to expect male Soldiers to stand up for female Soldiers? No, but the question should read, Is it sexist for me to expect a Soldier to stand up for a Soldier? I think, in todays Army, and our culture, we have removed gender from the work place...to our own harm...and in the military we are always in the work place.

Is it too much to ask for Soldiers to stand up for Soldiers, regardless of gender? No, if we do not stand together, we will all reap what we sow and it will not be good.

Last, if I ever heard you calling for help, I would come running...regardless of your gender...but I hope that I never have to and that all your days are blessed.

The fact that your fellow soldier have not stood up for you has me very concerned...but havin four sisters, sometimes the best way to stand up for a person is to let them stand on their own because they really didn't need help and the only way for them to know this was for them to get knocked down and get back up and do what needed to be done?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 7:21 PM

2014-08-14T19:21:23-04:00

As an old timer whose days in the Army have past (18 yrs), its refreshing ino read all the "on the mark" comments I've read so far. To me, this is a problem that the Army as an institution has not yet learned to handle. There is (not always) retribution toward the Female Soldier who reports an assault because it brings negative attention to each level of command from the higher headquarters leadership. As the Sh&% rolls down hill, each level puts blame on the leadership at each lower level. Once it gets down to the lowest level, it at times goes one more... down to the victim. It's looked upon as a command and leadership failure when it happens. The Soldier who commits the offense is delt with, and the victim remains in the unit as a reminder of the incident and therefore part of the blame.

This is unfortunate. Seems that in today's Army, Soldiers are not treated as adults or as individuals when they commit an offense. The Battle Buddy, Squad Leader, Section Chief, PSG, 1SG, Cdr all get reamed for their failure to prevent an incident from happening. At least I've seen it go that way several times here at Ft. Stewart with other offenses as well, especially DUI.

DA mandated "Annual Training" is NOT the solution. We need to take a lesson from the USMC and go back to instilling CORE Values, Respect, Integrity as the USMC does beginning in it's Recruit Training. Unfortunately the old remark, that the "Army is a cross section of our society" is a very true statement. It's time that we stop being a cross section of our society and be "THE Army". We may never see that happen as we have become to much of a liberal society and it takes a special kind of Leader to buck Society and Civilian Leadership. The old values that many of us recall and got our asses tore up when were growing up don't apply in many cases today. THE USMC has held steadfast in its core traditions and values and should be saluted for it.

I recently spent some time at USMC Recrut Depot at Parris Island, SC. I was there TDY during their annual Hurriicane Exercise and assisting their EOC in some of its SOP issues. I was amazed at the way those Recruits in Boot Camp carried themselves when the DI was NOT around. The way the marched, talked, military courtesy no matter where you saw them. Not just the Recruits, but at every level of NCO/officer rank. It really was very humbling to see it and was proud to pass along to several retired USMC CSMs and 1SG friends.

Now will the Army do this...I don't see it unfortunately. However, it can still happen. Every NCO and Officer (stilll on active duty) who has posted to this comment controls his/her own piece of the organizational Pie (I will call it), your section, your Platoon, Your Company. This slice you control, you train, you teach. Start it there. Do what it takes to get it ingrained. If it still happen , try to hang the assailant from the highest tree you can influence, Make that example out of them. Then you may also have to do what we as leaders are supposed to do, and that's put ourselves "in the middle" and between the victim and those who want to also blame the victim with some fault. You and your Soldiers have to protect them as well, from those off the wall comments from other Soldiers, fellow peer leaders, and possible the chain of command.

In the mean time,You teach, train, kick, cuss, scream, - what ever it takes to get your slice of the Pie (your soldiers) to think like that group of Marines that came to "their fellow Marine's aid". Once it has been "institutionalized" by You, they will move on and as they get promoted hopefully that attitude will go with them as they take control of their "Slice of the Pie". It would take a generation (10 yrs) before it would impact a portion of the Amryto where it is noticed or recognized. But it would be recognized and hopefully for what impact it was having.

But remember Reality Check- There will always be that "one" (or more) you will not be able to get thru too. No matter what, unfortunately it's gonna happen again somewhere! Do all you can to let it not be on your Watch!

Am I dreaming....Yeah I think so.....but its my dream....and a good one.
Remember the Army can make all the policy at the top it wants too, but until it works from the bottom ---up. It doesn't work!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 8:08 PM

2014-08-14T20:08:50-04:00

While I will admit that there is a lot of messed up stuff that happens within the Army (since I really can only speak on behalf of the Army), there are still those who believe that we are a family. In spite of our differences in upbringing, color, gender, age, etc., I believe that those I serve alongside are my brothers and sisters, and I will do anything and everything to keep them safe and make them aware of my dedication to the mission and the family.

And I know that there are those within the ranks who feel otherwise, and will betray the trust given to them by others. However, they are not just limited to the "aggressors." I have seen and heard of females who "cry wolf" and destroy males careers for personal reasons. It is sad, but a fact. And they are no better than those who will force themselves upon another, or verbally harass or degrade another.

Problems will exist within any community, it is just a fact. However, the best course of action is to ensure that your small little slice of the pie is made better through your actions. Ensure that those who are the cancer of our society are brought to light. Spread the feeling of togetherness and unity.

Wow, reading that... it was kind of preachy. Sorry.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Aug 14 at 2014 11:00 PM

2014-08-14T23:00:43-04:00

FWIW, I would suggest that the title of this thread should be "The Marines defend each other."

Because really, those Marines were just defending one of their own, not simply reacting because she was female. As a Marine, she was statistically more capable of defending herself than the average American civilian victim of sexual assault, but she still needed help, and her comrades stepped up.

This should happen not only in the Marine Corps, but in ALL branches of the military. Heck, ANY person in the USA should be able shout for help and have everyone within earshot come running to help.

Make it happen, America!

Response by MSG(P) Michael Warrick made Aug 14 at 2014 11:08 PM

2014-08-14T23:08:52-04:00

Marines take care of their own and the Army use too, but now everyone is jus about themselves. Let get back to One Team One Fight !!

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Aug 14 at 2014 11:25 PM

2014-08-14T23:25:18-04:00

I've been scolded for holding open a door as a chauvinist. Ironically, I hold the door open for everyone even Privates.

I think some hesitation in non-criminal EO/SHARP type situations on how to respond comes from its very subjective nature. When it comes down to something like Sexual Harassment it is really entirely on the receiver as to if it is harassment or not. Some are far more sensitive to it than others. I started my career in a rifle company (all male) and there was what you might perceive sexual harassment there.. it just wasn't seen as sexual harassment. It was seen as humor, camaraderie, and strange male bonding. In line units one of the best ways to show affection for someone is to tell them how much you hope they burst into flames the next time they use the latrine.

I am not condoning sexual harassment by any measure. I just haven't, in nearly a decade of wearing green, seen real, honest, inappropriate, meant as stated sexual harassment. I've only known one peer called on it (and that case was comically egregious). I'm not saying it isn't rampant or a problem, it just isn't where I've been assigned. I do dislike the way you indict the entire Army of half a million Soldiers based on your experience with your small corner of it.

Response by CPO William E. Mahoney made Aug 15 at 2014 12:00 AM

2014-08-15T00:00:38-04:00

This is very sad subject because I thought by now women would be more excepted because they do just as good a job if not better in some cases then their male counterparts, I served as the Equal Opportunity Officer for two (2) of the commands that served at and I only had one case of non-qualified because one sailor thought she should be allowed to attend combat camera school but was denied because at that time (1984) women where not permitted to fill combat positions, but today that is not the case women are now on submarines.

Response by PO1 G. Leslie /Stiltner made Aug 15 at 2014 6:51 AM

2014-08-15T06:51:54-04:00

I do not think their response was because the person in trouble was a Female, I think it was because there was a Marine in trouble!! I would hesitate to think that if any service member heard another service member scream for help they would hesitate to help their Shipmate out.

Response by CPL Jay Strickland made Aug 15 at 2014 7:12 AM

2014-08-15T07:12:14-04:00

The issue is about culture of the branch of service. This culture begins with the officers. The marines have a much higher turnover rate among officers so it is easier for their service to reflect the directives from the chain of command. You see this with acceptance of gays too. Where the first openly gay couple attended the marine ball and marines were told not only will you tolerate you will greet and be courtesy too.

Meanwhile a branch of service that will remain nameless had its officer in charge of preventing sexual assault arrested for sexual assault.

Response by SFC William "Bill" Moore made Aug 15 at 2014 10:14 AM

2014-08-15T10:14:56-04:00

I am from an older generation of soldiers. I also had the pleasure of being assigned to units with higher expectations of their Troops/Soldiers where there was 0 tolerance for the male, female, gay, straight drama that seems to be running crazy in many of the commands. I have personally intervened in at least 3 incidences where one of my soldiers was being attacked/threatened, one was a male soldier, the other were female. It did not go well for the assailants, only once did one want to press charges on me after which would have made no difference on my actions. I have always fell back to the adage that we were all Green regardless of our plumbing or skin color, we were green, same team Green! My wife, on the other hand, served in predominately Support units (MI, Maint.) and experienced quite a bit of harassment. At times, I actually thought we served in a totally different Army at the same time. I met her after she left the military. My point is, if you treat a soldier like a soldier, regardless of the physical make up, that is what you will get. And , it starts with the command.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Aug 15 at 2014 10:28 AM

2014-08-15T10:28:10-04:00

Anyone who has been harrassed and has not been protected by command is being violated again. And when you get out, to prove MST, you relive that again.

That is illegal and unacceptable. If you are having issues please contact me offline and I will initiate actions with your permission. I do not answer to command, I have had lousy officers (as well as great ones), and I am a professional and very well-trained and well-positioned advocate. Plus - I am a Dad with a teen-age daughter, and have airborne and SF background.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 11:43 AM

2014-08-15T11:43:21-04:00

I read this article, too, and thought it was interesting.
I belong to a unit, a Cavalry support company, that has very few females. None of the other troops have female soldiers due to the current disqualification in the 11B and 19D MOSs.
However, nothing prohibits us from training with the Troops. Last year, I was the only female in the State to compete for her spurs. I trained with the male soldiers, slept in the field with them, and competed against them in the Spur Ride. Our team of four worked well together. The instructors treated me no differently than any other soldier. The point is, I didn't ask for special treatment, didn't expect it, and gave 100% as to not receive any.
I came from the old school South. Women were homemakers. My grandmother taught me to sew, tend a garden, and take care of the "menfolk". I spent my first marriage doing everything but tying the guy's damn shoes for him!
My point is: I couldn't separate my sex from what I thought was my duty. It took a long time to realize that my being a woman, especially in the environment I was raised, actually made me stronger. It wasn't enough to settle for what society thought I should be doing. And for better or worse, I still think that way. I have three daughters who are looking at me now, watching what I do, and their future is more important to me than some exclusionary role in life's play.
Having said that, I can still make a mean peach cobbler, but you better fetch me a beer.

Response by CPO Greg Frazho made Aug 15 at 2014 11:54 AM

2014-08-15T11:54:19-04:00

Very insightful, Ms. Woods. It does seem that the days of courtesies, gestures, politeness and manners have passed us by, and I've been guilty of it myself. That said, sometimes a good ass-chewing is good for both the facilitator and the recipient.

That aside, though, your points are well taken. All service members, regardless of branch of service, background or upbringing should be loyal to their comrades, almost to a fault. That's what unit cohesion's all about.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 2:19 PM

2014-08-15T14:19:05-04:00

SSG Woods,

While the last question and the part of the story about the Army does deeply trouble me I must admit that I am glad that the story itself was shared. Sexual Assault or Harassment has no place in our Army, military or even in our communities for that matter. This is a festering problem that must be dealt within the core root; this will require a change in our culture as a society. However in order to accomplish this we must first change our own way fo thinking.

I am a SARC and with your permission would like to use this post as a teaching point in some SHARP training I am putting together for the leaders in my brigade.

Response by Sgt Ron Newkirk made Aug 15 at 2014 3:23 PM

2014-08-15T15:23:24-04:00

I was a little surprised when I read the title "Marines defend their women", like this was something new. I'm a little over 30 years removed from active duty in the Corps and even back "then" there were 3 things that you never messed with or criticized when dealing with Marines...

1) Family, this includes the people you are related to and also any other Marine on the planet, they are family, PERIOD!
2) The Marine Corps. It's our Corps... Only we get to call it "the suck". Go ahead and tell me that cool story about how you "almost" joined the Marine Corps.
3) Money. We don't make much but if you need some, ask. Don't try to screw us out of it and by no means try to take it... it won't end well.

I'm happy see that this sense of family and brotherhood is still very much alive in today's Marine Corps, but I'm not surprised.

Response by SFC Michael Hartwig made Aug 15 at 2014 3:31 PM

2014-08-15T15:31:33-04:00

Fellow Soldiers are our Brothers and Sisters and should be treated as such. Anyone that breaks that tradition shall be punished accordingly (and unofficially). another There is no place for harassment in our line of work. It degrades moral and cohesion.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 4:02 PM

2014-08-15T16:02:52-04:00

It a human nature. You heard somebody screaming for help. Two things going to happen. You investigate and act upon. As for male soldiers standing up for female soldiers? Well their stories haven't being tell yet. It out there, keeping low profile.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 4:36 PM

2014-08-15T16:36:20-04:00

As someone who spent almost 14 years in the Marines I can tell you this. There was a time when we did say female Marine or WM (woman Marine). Standards for women were so different than ours. Then the commandant said that the pt standards are going to be identical except pull ups. Once that happened the mentality changed. As an infantry Man i didn't work with women often but when they were around I noticed the change. The big difference is you always hear you have to EARN the title Marine. Now that I am in the Army I can see how the Army could benefit from the same thing. Earn the right to be called a soldier, don't take it lightly. I am proud to say I am a Marine and I always will be. I will continue to serve the Army as honorably as I did the Marines because I would not want to dishonor the corps by my actions. They still call me Marine here and I accept that proudly. I will protect my fellow soldiers the same way I will protect my fellow Marines because what I have learned is that we are all brothers and sisters in arms

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 5:16 PM

2014-08-15T17:16:43-04:00

SSG Woods,

My thought is that it is not about men and women. It is about mentoring Soldiers, instilling pride in one's unit, ownership of responsibility, "esprit de corps". These words build us as warriors in this military society. When I came back in the Army I was in a unit that preached all these things. When we deployed, we were all family. We didn't view the female Soldiers as that. But, as they were to be treated fellow Soldiers. We would've given our life them as they would've for us. We weren't the poster children. We were all just Soldier brothers and sister in arms. Soldiers are to protect Soldiers and that's what I hope you find

Response by SSgt Dennis Jordan made Aug 15 at 2014 5:47 PM

2014-08-15T17:47:01-04:00

In the corps it has always been simple. As Marines we take care of our own, race or gender doesn't matter. "Marines take care of Marines" it's that simple

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 7:23 PM

2014-08-15T19:23:22-04:00

When was this from?

My mother was in the Corps in the late 70s and she said the total opposite.

Response by SPC Dusty Carroll made Aug 15 at 2014 9:25 PM

2014-08-15T21:25:06-04:00

When I was stationed in Wachenheim, GE I remember soldiers doing things like this for the female soldiers. However, I got out of the Army in 04, and then returned in 07, and I'm not sure if it was the drop in standard of recruits because of the Army's desperate need for soldiers to send to combat, but it wasn't like this anymore.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 11:31 PM

2014-08-15T23:31:19-04:00

I've been in for 20 years, been deployed for over 6 of those. I've never had an opportunity to go to the defense of a female Soldier. No ones ever given cause.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 11:33 PM

2014-08-15T23:33:22-04:00

Thank you for your story SSG V. Michelle Woods. It is nice to know that the Marine Corps bond can be extended to the sisters who also serve.

Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres et Sorores Aeterni

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2014 12:48 AM

2014-08-16T00:48:50-04:00

Since being molded and the raised by the Marine Corps and transitioned into the Army, I will say that kind of loyalty has nothing to do with the fact that you are a woman, it has all to do that you are a Soldier. Soldiers, unless they are in a tight-knit grip like SF, Airborne or Rangers aren't held to that kind of camaraderie. The Marine Corps is a FAMILY while the specific units in the Army are.

Response by PO3 Christopher Bjork made Aug 16 at 2014 1:26 AM

2014-08-16T01:26:59-04:00

Not only would come in a help , take that piece of shit to the tree line and beat the living shit out of him.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2014 1:27 AM

2014-08-16T01:27:16-04:00

I'm the only female in an all male Marine unit. By the way I'm the one they call DOC and they make sure they look after me. Love my Marines, they are always keeping an eye in me to ensure my safety.

Response by CW2 Sean Heileman made Aug 16 at 2014 10:16 AM

2014-08-16T10:16:46-04:00

I was a U.S. Marine before becoming a soldier. Beyond just the values of brotherhood in the Corps, there is common human decency and the Marine Corps taught us to defend those in need, not just destroy our enemy

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Aug 16 at 2014 10:57 AM

2014-08-16T10:57:44-04:00

Thank you everyone for your feedback. The reason this may come across as one-sided in favor of the Marines is because it is my story, which stemmed from a conversation I had with one Marine female. She told me her story and this was my reaction due to my own personal experiences with several chains of commands and several soldiers. Of course it's one-sided. It's my story.

It doesn't mean there are no bad Marines. It doesn't mean there are no good soldiers.
It does however, represent the mindset I believe we should all share: we have to look out for one another with a level of loyalty that has the power to stomp out these slackass service members infecting our ranks.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2014 2:53 PM

2014-08-16T14:53:01-04:00

Actually, I would expect anyone from any service to come to the aid of a comrade. We see it on the battlefield and we should see it at home. I'm with your way of thing here SSG V. Michelle Woods. There is a reason why we refer to each other as "comrades in arms", we all served or are serving for a single reason. This is what unites us. Maybe if brothers start defending brothers and/or sisters (and vice versa), things like sexual assault and sexual harassment will become a thing of the past.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Aug 16 at 2014 3:06 PM

2014-08-16T15:06:18-04:00

I was a 1SG now retired, Females are different, they require different PT test and different Uniforms and different latrines. sometimes a logistical nightmare. With all the gay rights and equality bull crap. set the standard of dress and the standard of physical fitness and the standard of behavior and then and only then will we have equality. latrines should have private stalls all should use the same latrines just as we do at home. if a soldier has to do 50 push-ups to be fit to fight does it really matter if that soldier is black white male or female? I always thought the double standards were prejudicial and decisive.

Response by LCpl Brandon Mills made Aug 16 at 2014 5:10 PM

2014-08-16T17:10:43-04:00

I don't understand women of the Marine Corp if you are so afraid of sexual harassment then why in the hell do you want to join the infantry with all male marines? What are you trying to prove? On field ops and also on deployments things get out of hand fast so again why do you want to put yourselves in that position?

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2014 5:43 PM

2014-08-16T17:43:30-04:00

This is an awesome story.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2014 5:48 PM

2014-08-16T17:48:24-04:00

Honestly I am not so sure about this. I am a Corpsman and am honestly worried about having to go to a Marine unit at some point in my career. All of my female friends that have already done this say they treat you like crap, you have to work 10 times harder to get half the respect.. so on and so forth. :-/

Response by TSgt Julie Miller made Aug 16 at 2014 5:53 PM

2014-08-16T17:53:53-04:00

I had a few encounters... one mildly subversive, but yet not unnoticed by my supervisor who helped get things back straight with said individual and once with a co-worker, who allowed his cultural ideologies get in the way of a professional relationship... I worked in mostly male work-centers and felt accepted at all levels... I feel lucky that my generation of military service members carried a sense of honor and duty from day one... To be in the military, regardless of branch, should automatically instill that sense of Esprit De Corp at all times... This should never be a question... Sadly, it is....

Response by SPC Brad Johnson made Aug 16 at 2014 5:56 PM

2014-08-16T17:56:45-04:00

But a guy in your unit tried to force himself on you. The implication is that soldiers are all rapists and I take extreme insult to the insinuation. If in the barracks I heard the same trouble, I would (and actually did) run to defend a fellow soldier in need. No adjectives needed.
I applaud your fellow Marines for coming to you in time of need, but would not fellow soldiers, sailors, coast guardsmen?

Response by SFC Bruce Pettengill made Aug 16 at 2014 7:51 PM

2014-08-16T19:51:48-04:00

Your original premise has been debunked about sexual harassment in just the Army. Let's remember SSG Woods, that is was a Marine that snuck into another Marine's room. I think a lack of vision on your part would not allow you to see that it would not matter what branch of service you are in, you would have your fellow members jump to your aid.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Aug 16 at 2014 8:52 PM

2014-08-16T20:52:23-04:00

I mean, a crowd of marines came to save her... but a marine was trying to rape her also. That isn't unique to the marines, we have rapists in all branches. We also have service members willing to fight for their fellow soldiers/marines to death.

Response by Cpl Arriet Durham made Aug 16 at 2014 9:06 PM

2014-08-16T21:06:58-04:00

Marines are trained to take care of their own,period! Anyone honorably earned that uniform is family. Death before dishonor applies. I hope they did the right thing before they turned him over to the MP's.

Response by SSG Dwight Welsh made Aug 16 at 2014 9:15 PM

2014-08-16T21:15:45-04:00

Hoooraaaah!!

All Military members should stand up for their comrades, NO MATTER what race, gender, or life style.

Response by CPL BamBam Mott made Aug 16 at 2014 10:23 PM

2014-08-16T22:23:55-04:00

I can agree I've stood up for female soldiers, but you do have to look at the other side of the coin were female soldiers abuse rape charges to make military men fear then and gain leverage. It takes both sides to work together not just one.

Response by SPC Rachael Lavertu made Aug 16 at 2014 10:48 PM

2014-08-16T22:48:08-04:00

I am glad to see that in some units soldiers do not tolerate this. I can personally say that after I was raped in the Army my unit turned their backs on me and treated me like I was a liar. In fact my 1st Sgt. Looked me in the face and said "I think you are a F***ing liar". It was horrible to sit through a ton of briefings talking about a zero tolerance policy but my experience was that didn't exist. I was sexually harassed and assault after that and nothing was ever done. I am glad the word is out that this is a problem and there are many real victims.

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made Aug 16 at 2014 11:54 PM

2014-08-16T23:54:39-04:00

When i was on F.A.P. from my parent Battalion 3/5 to Base Motors in 91 I lived in Co-Ed Barracks and one night we were in the rec room watching T.V. when one of the Female Marines was being harassed by her boyfriend another Marine (From a Grunt unit Like I was) in her room with two of his buddies standing outside the room. her roommate came to the rec room and told me..So needless to say me and about 10 other Marines went to her room and made him and his friends(Marines) leave...He was like I'm a Grunt you don't know what I can do. I told him so I'm From 3/5 and I know what you know...Plus the base motor marines with me told him 10 to 3 odds is not in their favor...needless to say they left and we made sure she was alright and told the Duty officer what happened. When i was in the Suck no one came into my house and messed with my marines no matter their rank...I'm a Terminal Lance.

Response by Cpl Roy Tripp made Aug 17 at 2014 12:11 AM

2014-08-17T00:11:36-04:00

Just one of the reasons we are "The Few The Proud, The MARINES!" We are different from ALL others! True Story!

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Aug 17 at 2014 6:30 AM

2014-08-17T06:30:44-04:00

After boot camp, I remained friends with my Sr and Jr DI's for some time. Still with Jr DI today. I'm also still friends with my Sr's wife. He was an adulterer. One day after he didn't come home for several days she confronted him at the 7 day store. He hit her and knocked her down, he was a MSgt in uniform at the time.
Nobody stepped in to help. I wish I were there. That has always disgusted me. I broke off contact after she told me that.

Response by CPL BamBam Mott made Aug 17 at 2014 11:43 AM

2014-08-17T11:43:30-04:00

This is my final say. If some one sexualy assaultsa military personnel. Male or female, I feel the soldiers platoon or squad should be allowed to handle it in their way with no repercussions. That is the assaulted personnel's family. I feel they have the right too. If a person lies about that sit then they too should be dealt with by thirty brothers and sisters in arms. Responsibly I might add. It does come down to units policing their inner ranks.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2014 12:18 PM

2014-08-17T12:18:16-04:00

I can see some very mean faces. lolol. I guess it a good thing.

Response by SSgt Thomas Hirschey made Aug 17 at 2014 3:35 PM

2014-08-17T15:35:41-04:00

I retired in 2008 after 20 years in the Marine Corps. I was a combat engineer and women first showed up in my MOS because of an admin mistake. We treated them with the same respect shown to any other Marine and never had problems such as sexual harassment. Sometimes they couldn't lift as much weight as us but that didn't get in their way since we worked as a team. We never had any warnings, briefings, or classes on how to treat them. Since retiring and working as a DoD civilian, I see the difference today and it saddens me. As Marines, we didn't care what gender, race, or religion you were. If you were a Marine, then you were part of the family and deserved our respect! Period! We worked as a team, trained as a team, played as a team, and by God, lived as a team!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2014 4:24 PM

2014-08-17T16:24:40-04:00

This is an awesome story because you never hear that in the army. It starts in basic training for the Marines. Compared to Army basic training, we in the Army (make & female) are just trained and molded different from the Marines. Females Marines weren't allotted the same treatment females in the Army were alloted. Now I'm saying females soldiers can't take care of themselves but at the same time, knowing that in Army basic training there's something called being "pencil whipped" allows soldiers to be pushed through isn't much of a thought in the Marines.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2014 5:36 PM

2014-08-17T17:36:03-04:00

BS. this reaction to the incident is Absolutely no surprise to me. If you are surprised I feel bad for you...guess I was in a better Army than you.

Response by SGT Artiesa Woods made Aug 17 at 2014 6:14 PM

2014-08-17T18:14:29-04:00

After AIT I went to Fort Leonard Wood for an additional 5 weeks of training; our barracks were near the MP trainee's barracks. One night, I went to use the latrine in the CQ area and was followed by one of the MP trainees. When I went to leave the latrine, he pushed his way in and exposed himself, then tried to force himself on me...I was able shove him off of me and get away thankfully. However, due to the fact that I had been victimized in the past, I didn't handle it the right way, and instead of reporting it right away, I got drunk, stayed up all night and ditched formation the next morning. A battle buddy came and got me, I reported the incident to my 1SG and CO, who were wonderful. The problem I encountered was with CID. The CID investigator essentially called me a liar, and the worst part is the investigator was a female! Her basis for calling me a liar...the way I handled the situation. Because I didn't immediately report the incident. Truth be told, I initially told my 1SG and CO to just give me an Article 15 for getting intoxicated and missing formation because I didn't want to tell them what had happened because I know that justice doesn't get served...whether it is on the civilian side or Military side. My assumptions were correct...I left Fort Leonard Wood without hearing anything further about it until I was about to deploy to Iraq and my Platoon Sergeant wanted to know why I was flagged red for legal. I explained what had happened, he told me I was still deploying, I told him I wanted to deploy, and I never heard another word about it again. I assume that the Soldier that tried to force himself on me went on to be an MP, and I just pray that he hasn't done anything to anybody else...

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2014 6:25 PM

2014-08-17T18:25:25-04:00

"Semper Fidelis" says it all

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2014 6:52 PM

2014-08-17T18:52:24-04:00

An attempted sexual assault as described in this thread is very uncommon and is very easy to react to. You have compared a very obvious attempted rape to low level sexual harassment and they are very different things.

Low-level sexual harassment is much harder to address...it is like the difference between seeing a bully beat another kid and seeing a bully verbally harass another kid. More people will react to a situation that is physical, but fewer will react when the situation is secretive or subtle.

One of the best things a victim can do in a situation where they are feeling harassed is to let people know they are feeling harassed...their fellow Soldiers are more likely to help when they know for sure that there is an issue. For Soldiers who see a situation that they think might be sexual harassment (the difference being whether the comments and attention are wanted or unwanted), they can always address the behavior as "professional or unprofessional" if they are unsure as to whether it is wanted flirting or unwanted sexual harassment.

Response by LCpl John Gordon made Aug 17 at 2014 8:46 PM

2014-08-17T20:46:50-04:00

There is a phrase that we Marines are instilled with during basic, it's SEMPER FIDELIS.
It's Latin for "Always faithful".
We're tought to be and stay always faithful to our brothers and sisters.
OOH RAH!!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2014 8:58 PM

2014-08-17T20:58:05-04:00

I agree with you 100%.
Being in the same unit you were (1SB), saw a lot of injustice, from both sides; one on preference for being females and discrimination for who you work/with and the other SH that went under the rug because of the rank/position the offender held.
I kept my soldiers to a very strict rule in this case: around me they would not use the "B" word when referring to a female, nor they would use any language degrading females or males.
I had at one point three female soldiers and PSG and they were all very up level physically, (they all scored over 280 in the APFT). That raised a lot of bad blood with the guys and they started making up stuff to give them bad reputation.
This I have seen doesn't happen in another services. They support each other and have their back no matter what.
I hope this new wave of change we are having in the Army from the top down helps to start some changes.

Response by SPC John O'Brien III made Aug 17 at 2014 9:14 PM

2014-08-17T21:14:24-04:00

yeh, in the Army apparently some Staff SGT. (who should be out of a job) will throw the entire Army under the bus?

every unit has bad apples, clearly yours is full of them.

Response by SSG Shawn Armstrong made Aug 17 at 2014 9:19 PM

2014-08-17T21:19:51-04:00

I guess you were in the wrong unit, with wrong leadership.

Response by SSG Shawn Armstrong made Aug 17 at 2014 9:21 PM

2014-08-17T21:21:19-04:00

I guess you were in the wrong unit, with the wrong leadership.

Response by GySgt Thomas Beran made Aug 17 at 2014 10:20 PM

2014-08-17T22:20:17-04:00

That has been my experience as a male Marine in units where there were a lot of WMs. If anybody messed with any of my Marines they had better be ready. Still in contact with many of them on Facebook. Just found out one of my former troops became the first SgtMaj of a grunt unit. I cried from the pride of having known her

Response by MAJ Sheldon Smith made Aug 17 at 2014 10:34 PM

2014-08-17T22:34:34-04:00

Yes. We are our brother's (and sister's) keeper. I've always felt that men who sexually assault (or even disrespect) others are not worthy of my friendship. And, yes I will act if I ever catch anyone in the act. Only we can change the culture of the military or elsewhere. Friends don't let friends abuse our fellow service members.

Response by SGT Michael Root made Aug 18 at 2014 12:37 AM

2014-08-18T00:37:39-04:00

It is unfortunate that so many of us can recall negative examples that speak to this topic. I thought it would be refreshing to provide the rare positive example (though, I suppose, the very fact that it may have been needed is negative in and of itself).

On my second tour in Iraq, my squadron was posted to a small patrol base. Our S-2a was one of maybe 12 females total and one of the only ones that wasn't in the support troop. On top of that, she had to work a unique shift that left her walking back to her trailer through some rather dark and isolated areas around 0400 every morning. Before she began that shift, however, both my OIC and NCOIC ordered me (individually, I'm not sure if they coordinated it or not) to escort her back every night before resuming my duties as night shift NCO. I'm not going to pretend it didn't annoy her some nights but I carried out my orders and she always made it without incident. On those nights that she decided to sneak out on her own, I followed discretely at a distance.

Was the escort necessary? I would like to believe that it was not. Would I have received these orders had the Lt. been a male? I doubt it. Did these orders make us sexists? I suppose that is for you to decide. We viewed it as watching out for one of our own.

I think one of the main differences between the Army and the Marines is how we identify ourselves. Marines seem to identify with the Corps as a whole where-as Soldiers tend to identify with their individual units concentrically (ie: my section, my squad, my platoon, my company, etc...). You'd help out a member of your section without hesitation but someone whose only tie to you is that you are in the same division has much less pull.

Response by Cpl Joshua Vrooman made Aug 18 at 2014 1:58 AM

2014-08-18T01:58:35-04:00

Back in March 2003 for OIF1 at Camp Fox, Kuwait my first duty posting was literally on one of the female tents that a Gunnery Sgt had snuck into and groped one of the females. The Camp Commandant personally gave me and the two other Marines covering the tent hatch the order to shoot any male that ever attempted to force their way into the tent. Marines take care of their own. Regardless of sex, anyone who would force themselves onto another person deserves to be stomped out in a loud, violent and merciless manner.

Response by MAJ Derrick J. made Aug 18 at 2014 2:48 AM

2014-08-18T02:48:02-04:00

This was never shown to me during my command time or in other staff officer positions, ever.

I always gave "the talk" about this and made it clear I would crucify anyone caught doing it, but I also warned about making false accusations.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Aug 18 at 2014 9:43 AM

2014-08-18T09:43:34-04:00

I do find it very telling that no Active Duty Marines, Male or Female have responded to this thread. The only response from any Marine so far has been from a Vet who was just wondering at the value of any women in the Corps in Infantry at all; that is telling, but not news.

I really do not think it makes a difference in today's military, if you make enough noise, people will come to investigate and help. At least I have to believe rape is no longer a team sport.

Response by CWO3 Richard Muth made Aug 18 at 2014 10:24 AM

2014-08-18T10:24:00-04:00

Marines are very different from their Army counterparts, that is why we are Marines!

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 11:14 AM

2014-08-18T11:14:16-04:00

I am not sure why this does not happen in Army Units today. When I joined back in 1986, my barracks in Germany actually had Coed bathrooms and Showers. That's right. Flak Kaserne, Ludwigsburg, Germany. We didn't have any issues. First, if one of the guys in our Unit disrespected or tried to harm one of our female Soldiers, he was gonna get it from the rest of the guys in the unit. Secondly, if a guy outside of the unit disrespected or tried to hard one of our female Soldiers, he was gonna have a bad day! We took care of our own. We were one big family. I don't know how we lost that over the years.

Response by MSgt Donald Watkins made Aug 18 at 2014 2:04 PM

2014-08-18T14:04:46-04:00

u should always come to someone call for help no matter who they are.
We've come along way from where we were. I'm going to talk about the Air Force since I'm retired Air Force. I hope that is gotten even better since I've retired. I retired in 1991. When I first entered the service it was bad. We still had some either active duty or retired military from WWII, KOREAN WAR, and VIETNAM was still going on. But I could tell as more females came into the service it was getting better. When I likeda female

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 5:13 PM

2014-08-18T17:13:47-04:00

I am retired AF, my daughter is currently in the Army. Something similar happened to her and not only did no one help, they blamed her when the male soldier got in trouble. This was less than 3 years ago. They even moved her instead of getting rid of him.

Response by PFC Juan Albrincoles made Aug 18 at 2014 5:32 PM

2014-08-18T17:32:00-04:00

you DB's (and no one else better call any of you that) were with me when it all counted...I'd be a worse than a broke dick to not make sure you had/have the same respect WE get when WE walk on the scene...if they fear how I fight for my brother in arms; what can they expect from me for my sister...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 8:11 PM

2014-08-18T20:11:06-04:00

Soldiers have a positive duty to defend each other. The sex, race or rank of a soldier is irrelevant. However mostly we don't.

It falls under Personal Courage. Either you have it or you don't.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Aug 18 at 2014 8:30 PM

2014-08-18T20:30:50-04:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods, I was raised to respect women, and the Military. So when I joined the Army I started showing respect for women in the military above what was expected. I try to consider everyone's opinions, and if you ever need someone to watch your back contact me. You outranked me, but that doesn't matter you deserve the respect of the rank, soldier and female service member. Anyone who wants to argue this point with me feel free. I've got your back SSG Woods, and any female military service members that need it.

Charles

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2014 12:24 AM

2014-08-19T00:24:28-04:00

So, what are we going to say about the Marine's missing pregnant wife story? The person arrested and charged was a Marine (though currently out of service) and her ex. We all have stories of really messed up situations. I believe that there are philosophies and practices that every branch of service can share with each other. However, as it has been mentioned by others on this discussion; the help MUST come from within our own individual ranks! Saying the Marines are this and the Army should be more like them is kind of like saying, I know the Army needs help but I'm just going to supervise and see what else I can find wrong. We can always find wrong! While our Soldiers (whether they say it or not) are looking for RIGHT! As NCOs we should motivate our Soldiers to do more than sit in the barracks or their houses and do nothing but get bored and do all the things that led to wrong actions. Empower them to be the future while maintaining military bearing and when corrective action is done explain to them why you made the decision you did. Don't just correct them and walk off like you just put a notch on your belt because there is another hide you just skinned! Let us stand up as NCOs (Army, Navy, Marine's, Air Force, Coast Guard, it doesn't matter!) and take back our services and share that pride because, Today we made an impact on some Soldier's life! If you already do that, then awesome; we are on the same path! But if you didn't, won't or don’t care to; then please do the U.S. Armed Forces a favor and change or get out!

I am certainly against the issues that are at hand here and am thankful that there were people around to lend their help. Those people should be applauded and recognized but minimally. Why minimally, because they accomplished no ordinary feat only doing something for a fellow Marine that they would want done for themselves. And the perpetrator should be punished to the fullest extent of UCMJ. However, as we all have seen many times the offender gets off light or no charges at all. May not have been the case here but we all have those stories also. Many times this falls back on NCO's because they did not properly counsel the individual regardless of service. It is swept under the rug. Even with the RIF there are details that are not noticed, why; because it’s Friday evening and the NCO doesn't want to ruin the weekend. It is time for us to uphold the standard and not let it drop (NOT EVEN A BIT!) Army NCO's claim to be the "Backbone of the Army" but we complain of it getting to lax and falling down. Well you can't stand if you don't have a BACKBONE! Let's get at it NCO's and take pride in the finest job in the world!!

Response by SGT Shawn Johnson made Aug 19 at 2014 9:10 AM

2014-08-19T09:10:24-04:00

I would like to added my 2 cents I am a civil service employee now for 6 years and I was also a Army soilder that served for 8 years. I had female soilders and officers in my units, Aviation units have more then most units in the Army outside of medical. As a soilder and leader when I was in I didnt agree with how females in general where treated. I understood that I couldn't change that on a major scale but I could in my squads and PLTs so I made it a point to get my soilders to look after each other as family and treat each other like family. Some drank the Kool-Aid some didnt, however I beleive it starts and ends with leadership. As a civil service employee going to work on a Naval Base I see Marines and Navy personnel everyday and work beside them. I see they both have the same problems as the Army does on numerous things. But again leadership is the key, bad soilders, Airman, Marines, seamen, etc become bad leaders which in turn produce bad units. you can go to every situation that a female had been harassed or assulted and I can bet you there where bad leadership at more then one level. I know its a easy answer but I beleive that as a military its all about taking care of each other if we cant do that why are we in.

Response by Capt Andrew Cosgrove made Aug 19 at 2014 11:05 AM

2014-08-19T11:05:15-04:00

Having been a Marine I am obviously biased, yet there are some truths to be gleaned and objective differences.

The Army has traditionally, and even to this day, stressed the importance of the individual to the team. You are Army strong, Be all you can be, etc. This carried over into their doctrinal training where they concentrate on the importance of knowing your job. You need to be the expert at your job and be the best at what they train you for.

The Corps takes a different approach. It seems harsh to outsiders but once you learn the difference, and it is nuanced, you can begin to understand why Marines think of themselves as a different breed of the same species known as "The Warrior."

The Marines essentially teach you that as an individual you are essentially worthless. Your effectiveness comes from how well you enable others to do their jobs. It is a perspective difference. The army units that are most combat effective actually teach this same outlook. Delta, SF, etc. the all go against standard Army doctrine in this outlook.

The Marines are taught that we are all "Green." We may be different flavors of Green but in the end, we are all Green. That creates what some call an elitist attitude. Some Marines do have an elitist attitude, the issue is how is that put into action with everyday scenarios.

The closest analogy I can come up with for other people to understand Marines is that we think of ourselves as one big family. Now to be sure there is dysfunction in families, but if you see family that is arguing with itself and you are not of the family and try to break up or mediate the disagreement, what ALWAYS happens? The family turns on you, the outsider.

The Corps is the same way. We have bad apples just like everyone else. The difference is that those bad apples are generally dealt with severely and swiftly. Sure there are instances when that doesn't happen, but if you think about it, most people still have the same reaction when they hear publicly of a Marine getting in trouble. That is because Marines generally take care of their business before it gets widely known, and they take care of it properly.

Response by SSG Shawn Armstrong made Aug 19 at 2014 11:29 AM

2014-08-19T11:29:09-04:00

How do you stop sexual abuse in the military, by a being a leader, PERIOD!!! I've heard every friggin' excuse on here, well, I maybe a SSG, but I can't do this, I can't do that. Then get out, because you're shitty NCO.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/nco_duties/duties-responsibilities-authority-of-nco.shtml

Response by SPC Gabrielle Yazzie made Aug 19 at 2014 12:54 PM

2014-08-19T12:54:07-04:00

The sad part is having been in a similar situation, the situation being a physical attack and not sexual in South Korea. At the time when everything started I had thought if I could just get into the hallway of the barracks someone will hear the commotion and help me. I was supposed to feel safe. I mean I was on an Army installation, I was in an MP barracks, and CQ was on duty. No one stepped out side their rooms, CQ never checked to hear what the noise was, and I came to the realization I was not safe, and to top everything off the male who attacked me portrayed himself as a friend. I had to fight my way out. The blessing is I got out with a black eye and a few bruises. But it changed my whole perspective on soldiers. Not just "male" but as "female" soldiers as well. I don't know why it is that the line of trust is not across the board in all branches. I do think that with all this madness of trying to draw-down, tensions will flare. and in this mix we are faced with who stays and who goes and to this causes a blind eye to what needs to be seen. Everyone wants to save themselves. and interfering in anything but your own business can either set you up for success or set you back with failure. And maybe it something else I don't know.

Response by SFC Bruce Pettengill made Aug 19 at 2014 2:01 PM

2014-08-19T14:01:59-04:00

I cant believe where the original premise of this post has gone. I felt that SSG Woods put labels on the different services and made the assertion that only the Marines would defend their women and that is hogwash. I think its important to remember that in the Army that all people are trained as soldiers first and although the label has changed, there is not a soldier that has not been through basic combat training. My time as a Drill Sergeant in BCT then MP AIT, I was the Platoon Sergeant for women and men on several occasions. I have seen men cry and women cry, I have seen women fail and men fail, I have had women honor platoons and men honor platoons. In MP and Drill Sergeant Schools where men and women train together side by side, I have been smoked by female drill sergeants as well as male drill sergeants I have seen men jump to the aide of women and women jump to the aide of men, WHY? because we were and still are part of a team. In the military we are to put ourselves behind the team, it does not matter your race, creed, color, religion or what sex you are or now what sex you think you should be. When the team fails people die in all the differences as I listed above, we all bleed the same color. The best commander I have ever had was a female, the worst commander I ever had was a female; in-between there are commander's of both sex's that I would not hesitate to follow into battle. The answer to all of the responses in this post is... character you either have it or you don't.

Response by SGT Richard Harter made Aug 19 at 2014 3:13 PM

2014-08-19T15:13:42-04:00

When I was in the Army as a medic in the 4th medical battalion during Reforger 85 The exercise commander tried segregating the men from the women one of our women was accosted outside their tent They then requested and were granted permission to billet with the men of their battalion they knew us and Knew they were safe with us. The only Hanky Panky going on in our unit was of the consensual kind.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2014 8:33 PM

2014-08-19T20:33:00-04:00

-Is it sexist for me to expect male Soldiers to stand up for female Soldiers? Nope not at all. 99.99% of the males do it, even without thinking about it.

-Is it too much to ask for Soldiers to stand up for Soldiers, regardless of gender? Nope, but in a self-involved world where the Xbox outranks common sense I wish we had more of an "army family mindset".

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made Aug 19 at 2014 10:38 PM

2014-08-19T22:38:52-04:00

Ladies and Gentlemen, Vets,Active Duty and Reserve,

Remember this is from SSGT. Woods experience, as you read all the comments we all have seen or had instances where We acted or knew someone that did to help a fellow Marine, Solder,Seamen, Airmen or Civilian when in danger from sexual assault. It is an Unfortunate thing the Military as a whole has to deal with regardless if the Victim be Females or yes even Males. And it is something we all would hope and wish every Military Family member old and new would stand up and fight against and help those in need. That IS everyone's duty after all right?! Right. That also should Crossed over no matter what Branch you are with. As you saw from my 1st. commented post I have had to deal with this very subject while i was in and I would do the same if the person in need / Danger was from another Military Branch or even a Male and from what i see here it looks like you all would do the same. Every branch has Knuckleheads Male and female that take things to far and it is our job to make sure we stay diligent and make sure we do our part to get those that have no internal fortitude and self restraint and Honor are Handled and removed from our Military Family Because They do not belong. Regardless of rank...Like i said before No one comes into my house and messes with my people Rank and Branch did not matter. If you were in what I decided was in my area of responsibility I would stand up and defend you from those that were not part of us. for me it was always protecting those around me. And yes that mentality almost got me charged and standing before the man many times. The only reason I never did is because they saw why I acted the way I did and knew I meant no disrespect and they saw the pride I had in doing my duty of protecting my brothers and sisters.

Response by Cpl Ted Sterletske made Aug 19 at 2014 10:39 PM

2014-08-19T22:39:25-04:00

A Marine is a Marine. We have no gender and we have one color-Green! And Once A Marine Always A Marine. Semper Fi Brothers and Sisters!!!

Response by SPC Robert Reyes made Aug 20 at 2014 12:26 AM

2014-08-20T00:26:17-04:00

All these responses have me thinking about in the way how some people think. I was in the ARMY from 04-09. I was sexually assaulted by my SGM. Everyone acted like I was crazy when I brought it up, Higher command at San Antonio ignored me. I tried fighting and fighting til the point CID tells me that Statue of limitations has expired. Thank you very much. So male to male assault cases are just cases that no one wants to know about or deal with. The people fail people not the system. So some people will not understand, they will never do. Good to know that marine was helped.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2014 12:58 PM

2014-08-20T12:58:54-04:00

I think it is awesome that her fellow soldiers came to her aid. It is nothing less than what I would expect. Unfortunately many soldier don't see each other on an equal basis not only on the basis of sex but of MOS. I spent over 30 years in the military in the medical field and it was always the medical field weren't real soldiers. That is unfortunate.

Response by SCPO Kenneth Myers made Aug 20 at 2014 1:29 PM

2014-08-20T13:29:49-04:00

Very Well Said. It's only the decent thing too do.

Response by SGT Michael McMahon made Aug 20 at 2014 2:03 PM

2014-08-20T14:03:18-04:00

Very well put! It does not matter what gender you are, if a comrade is in danger, it IS the duty of a true comrade to come to their aid! There is no place in the honorable service that is the United States Armed Forces for anyone who would prey upon another member. Whether it is a sexual predator, the drug dealer, or a barracks thief, those without honor in the ranks need to be promptly dishonorably discharged, and stricken from the honor of being known as a veteran!

Response by Cpl Ronald Lashley made Aug 20 at 2014 5:26 PM

2014-08-20T17:26:41-04:00

We're were taught that we are all the same color just lighter or darker shades of green. We are a different breed that is for certain and those true to the code carry that legacy well passed out days of being enlisted.

With the current climate around us, the youth today could learn from that code of honor and conduct and respect for one another. It's the true meaning of being a solider. It's the true meaning of being a man. We serve. We protect. Doesn't matter color race or gender.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2014 10:36 PM

2014-08-20T22:36:51-04:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods I hear what your saying and I agree with you. But I have to take it a step forward, I would say that it should be a soldier's duty to always look out for their battle buddies. Yes there will be times when you drive each other up a wall but at the end of the day there will always be that trust between battle buddies. Because there has to be, because if you can't trust each other to look after one another during simple exercises how will you trust each other when things are at their worst and the sh-- hits the fan. Regardless of whether its protecting a battle buddy from sexual assault or anything else I don't think it's too much to ask soldiers to just look out for one another. I'm very glad to hear that the Marine in your story had good friends that understood that.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 2:42 AM

2014-08-21T02:42:11-04:00

Those who hurt my military sisters are no friends of mine. SSG V. Michelle Woods

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 12:20 PM

2014-08-21T12:20:05-04:00

It isn't wrong by any means to expect Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, or Marines of any rank to stand up for one another. To think that we would harass or assault one another is shameful in itself. I know it happens as does everyone else. I'll be damned if I am around it and don't do something to stop it. We joke with each other over every little thing because we live in such a high stress environment that you have to be able to joke about some ridiculous things. That being said however, it is everyone's job to stand up and be professionals. We all know when you cross that line and if you allow it to happen even once then you as much the problem as the one who did it. When I joined the Corps, I didn't ask if my fellow Marines would have my back, I knew it was expected of them. Marines are not perfect, I have seen some pretty messed up morals in my time. As an NCO, I strive every day to teach my Marines everything I can from weapons manipulation to suicide awareness. As leaders in the military the first line of defense is your NCO corps. Across our armed forces small unit leaders have the ability and the responsibility to influence all members under their care. If your soldiers, Marines, etc... don't trust each other and don't look out for one another then you have failed as a leader. Semper Fi

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Aug 21 at 2014 1:42 PM

2014-08-21T13:42:42-04:00

I find myself wondering if this thread will take on a life of its own like the "Salute" thread.

Opinions, CPT Private RallyPoint Member and SSG V. Michelle Woods?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 3:55 PM

2014-08-21T15:55:49-04:00

This was a great commentary on Marine philosophy - even back in the early 80's we had 'light green' and 'dark green' Marines. It didn't matter if you were male or female and it wasn't a derogatory term - it focused on the fact that everyone was a Marine we were all part of one cohesive group. Each fire team, platoon or even bigger groups would be like family - and woe to anyone who 'messed' with anyone in that 'family'. We all looked out for each other at all times. I am glad to hear that this has endured.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2014 12:05 AM

2014-08-22T00:05:57-04:00

As a prior active duty Marine and now Active Duty Army National Guard Soldier and Instructor, I see no difference between a male or a female Soldier, Sailor, Marine, or Airman. We have all sworn an oath, we have all signed a contract, that contract requires us to conduct ourselves as professionals at all times!! That fact that certain individuals only proves that there are "individuals" among our ranks. Not everyone who graduate basic training deserves to be among us, that fact is sad and tragic, but we see the results of their actions on news channel 5 every day. We have to find a way to instill that pride, camaraderie, that ethos, into all applicants, or find a way to weed them out!!

Response by SSG Harper Peterson made Aug 22 at 2014 1:49 AM

2014-08-22T01:49:30-04:00

I don't think it's sexist to expect male soldiers to stick up for female soldiers at all. Just like I would expect a soldier to stick up for another soldier, REGARDLESS of their gender. Females can stick up for males the same way. We need to start looking out for each other. I never liked the "Army of One" motto the Army once used. It tells me "you're on your own! Good luck!"

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2014 2:14 AM

2014-08-24T02:14:20-04:00

As fellow humans, and soldiers, we have a duty to watch each others' six. I feel that there is a stigma, while I don't agree with it, with female soldiers. The problem is that most male soldiers feel that it is unfair that women want to be treated on the same level as males, yet do not have the same standards. For instance, women want to be a part of the infantry, but do not share the same pt standards, or height and weight standards. This is why I think there are a lot of those soldiers out there that aren't quick to react. Not saying it is right, just what I think the issue is.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2014 6:36 PM

2014-08-25T18:36:49-04:00

Okay, you as a leader have the chance to start the change of this. When you drop a pebble into a pond you then have affected everything that ripple comes in contact with. You have Soldiers, try the BOGGSAT (bunch of guys and girls sitting around talking) method. Tell your thoughts and listen to your Soldiers opinions. Don't be afraid to face the issue. You'll be surprised at what you can accomplish. It's up to us to change the current culture.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2014 10:24 PM

2014-08-27T22:24:42-04:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods Thanks for the nice story and I am flummoxed by the person who down-voted and exactly the reason why but as far as I have seen, you are special and valuable to this board.

When I was 18, I was at Sheppard AFB, I was leaving out of the dorm one evening but just as I was going to leave some of the guys asked me to drink with them and have sex with a teen girl who was a civilian. I thought I heard her sobbing or something but just as happened at the processing center in the motel I did not go along with the guys. Regardless of it was consensual or not.

It is not me.

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made Aug 27 at 2014 11:18 PM

2014-08-27T23:18:31-04:00

Brothers and Sisters,

It appears We for the most part are all on the same page in the belief that Sexual Assault/ Harassment or any other type of assault/ harassment is something that needs to be Everyone's Duty to prevent and or stop no matter the Rank or Branch of service. We all know the Chain of Command and what steps can be taken if one feels their concerns/ issues are not being meet. The worst thing any service member could do is turn a blind eye to the problem from Top to Bottom. Those that do are just as guilty as the one(s) who is Committing the offence in the 1st place. We as a Family need to stay true to ourselves and others by staying Diligent.

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Aug 28 at 2014 12:13 AM

2014-08-28T00:13:34-04:00

We don't defend our women, we just defend our fellow Marines. We'll fight with each other over anything and everything (trust me my roommate and I put a hole in a wall at our shop after we argued whose dad our Maintenance Officer was), but as soon as we see a Marine in trouble be it one in our unit or one that we just happen to see in trouble we will fight like hell to protect them even if we don't like them personally. There's a definite reason people describe Marines by saying "There is no better friend... and no worse enemy than a United States Marine."

Response by Cpl Brett Wagner made Aug 28 at 2014 12:43 PM

2014-08-28T12:43:27-04:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods - This is truly a bitter sweet story. Bitter because of your experience, sweet because of that Marine's story. The army and Marine Corps are such different animals. When one Marine sees another Marine, say one is wearing a shirt, hat, in uniform or some other sign signifying they are a Marine we always great each other with "Semper Fi' in return the other Marine will respond with "Semper Fi" or "Ooh Rah" maybe some other grungy Marine expression. This happens no matter the age difference. I have given or received this greeting to/by other Marines decades younger and older than I. It is part of the brotherhood the espirt de corps that we are taught from day one. That is why we have the "Injured Marine Semper Fi Fund" (IMSFF) to take care of our own. My wife and I have worked charity events for IMSFF and I have been witness to IMSFF pay for a family to fly from the west coast to the east so they could be with their injured Marine during at a medical center. They have arranged places to stay, food, babysitting, even sending jackets and hats. One injured Marine missing a leg, a hand and multiple other wounds all over his body came back from Afghanistan and was at Walter Reed close to where we live. We helped put them in touch with IMSFF and went to visit him we brought him a small gift bag to try to lift his spirits. What we did not know was how motivated this Marine was and that he would end up lifting our spirits. He is one of the most amazing men I have ever met. Another was Sgt Merlin German I encourage you and everyone to read his story http://www.merlinsmiracles.com/ I have recently seen posts here on RP about soldiers hating the word Hooah which I just cannot understand. One soldier told how she was punished for using by being assigned to write a 5,000 word essay. That is the kind of punishment I had in elementary school. In the Marine Corps the word (sound) OohRah is revered, honorable, used to motivate. I cannot image a Marine ever saying he hated the word. Next time you need help call out "Marine help me" if we are in ear shot we will come running.

What's New | Merlin's Miracles

Merlin’s Miracles Executive Director Norma Guerra recently spent two days at the Children’s Burn Hospital in Galveston and assisted over 22 families whose children are inpatients due to severe burns.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Aug 28 at 2014 4:52 PM

2014-08-28T16:52:50-04:00

I am reading a book now about three women who served, and there is a lot of mention of how much those particular women, with their own set of circumstances, enjoyed flirting with men. There is no condoning any immoral or illegal acts, period. But the concept of men and women and how they interact has existed from the dawn of time, complete with all the twists and turns. Many men like to flirt and women enjoy their attentions, and vice versa. Controlling nature is difficult in any event.

The real issue is about respect - from self-respect to mutual respect. Would you kiss your sister, daughter or mother? I like that question. Maybe it is time to evaluate people as people and teach them self-respect. That could be a real time course pre-PCS for your first assignment. What do y'all think?

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2014 6:00 AM

2014-08-30T06:00:38-04:00

Having served in both the Marines and the Army, I can attest to the differences in the way the two branches of service operate. As a general statement, the Army does not have the tight camaraderie and unit cohesion that the Marines hold dearly. It is quite sad but my Army counterparts laugh it off to little more than Marines being mindless. Personally, I don't see how taking care of your own is a bad thing.

Response by MAJ Jeff Coulter made Aug 30 at 2014 11:38 PM

2014-08-30T23:38:54-04:00

It makes me sad and ashamed of my fellow Soldiers to hear her say this of her experience. If we won't take care of our own, then we're lost as a service.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 8:07 PM

2014-09-04T20:07:34-04:00

Unfortunately I know what you are meaning and getting at with the fact that there is a large gap between the Marines and the Army on this topic. I hear it all to often that women shouldn't be in the military and you hear the horror stories of rape, sexual harassment and the CoC sweeps it under the rug. I'm glad and amazed that her fellow Marines came to her aid without hesitation. I hope the Army catches up with the Marines on this topic and we as Men start treating Women as we were taught to treat them, regardless if they are in uniform or not.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 9:31 AM

2014-09-06T09:31:24-04:00

http://www.stripes.com/alaska-national-guard-chief-ousted-in-wake-of-scathing-report-1.301577

SSG V. Michelle Woods, this is also what I'm talking about. As an organization we continually demonstrate that we do not have the backs of our brothers and sisters. Through all of the branches we see cases that are not being handled correctly.

Alaska National Guard chief ousted in wake of scathing report

The Alaska National Guard’s commander was forced to resign after a six-month federal investigation found that some members of the Guard had been ostracized and abused after reporting sexual assaults and that Guard members lacked trust and confidence in their leaders.

Response by SN Kevin Townsend made Sep 6 at 2014 12:48 PM

2014-09-06T12:48:39-04:00

Male/Female doesn't matter. In the end, Marines are Marines no matter whats under their clothes and should stand up for each other.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 12:52 PM

2014-09-08T12:52:14-04:00

I am in the Army Reserves and work as a civlian for the Marine Corp and I can say the Marines I work with are nothing but upstanding. They conduct themselves with such professionalism. This is an awesome article!

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2014 5:20 AM

2014-09-10T05:20:38-04:00

There is sexual assault in all branches, it’s just the Army is focused on the most because of its size compared to all other branches combined. When the general population thinks of the military it tends to think of the Army first because that is what is advertised and promoted the most. In the Army I have been in units where women are part of the team and treated the same and respected the same as men and I have been in units where there has been a clear divide between genders that is often uncomfortable.

Standing up for women varies between units. It truly depends on factors such as command climate, individual Soldiers, etc. Some branches, such as the Marines, are smaller and tighter knit groups where that protection factor exists BUT I am 100% positive the same factors affect those groups as mentioned for the Army. However, military culture is maybe one of the largest factors in this and it varies substantially between branches. Women should be treated equally but at the same time not “specially”.

Men and women are simply wired differently; we are physically and psychologically different. Women should be treated as equals to men but both genders are not the same. Men should honor women and treat them with dignity and respect but as others have mentioned, that lack of that respect is an inherent societal flaw and not specific to the military. The military is under a microscope and being a small community overall, every indiscretion is magnified and blown up by the media and public making it seem more of an issue than it may, or may not, actually be.

At the same time the military is designed to function a certain way. Historically the US military has not had a lot of direct interaction between genders. The last 10+ years of war has changed that atmosphere substantially. Traditional military thinking, training, dogma, etc has been focused on “MAN MAN MAN” with no "weakness" and “KILL” (to use generic terms). The Army was just not prepared at this time to fully immerse both genders without question because old traditions, dogmas, and thoughts die hard. At the same time we cannot purely blame the men for all these issues as there are plenty of women making this transition difficult as well. Both genders are part of this problem and have to work together to figure it all out.

I hope the military can evolve to a point where both genders can interact fully and cooperatively where both are treated with proper and due respect. It will not happen overnight though. In conclusion, the bottom line is that the military has a primary purpose: DESTRUCTION. The military is in place to defend and protect the nation's people and interests. We work in a violent profession and not all of those serving can be gentlemen and that is an aspect of the military I don't think can, or should, change because it’s a fine edge that is required for war. So if you are looking for a gentleman, the military is not the first place you should look.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2014 9:07 PM

2014-09-11T21:07:04-04:00

As an artilleryman for 19 yrs, I can almost count without running out of fingers the number of female Marines I've personally been aquainted with, since they're just now being allowed in arty MOS's. But even the tough cannoneers who gripe about the gunline being no place for a woman, when in a situation where they work with a female Marine, like in supply or admin, treat her like thier own little sister. Maybe not the most professional at all times, and give her a hard time, but at the end of the day, if any one outside the unit messes with her, they'll have hell to pay. I hope that guy that got carried out of that female Marine's room got the ever-loving sh!t beat out of him, and no one got caught... policing our own, as it should be. Semper Fidelis... always faithful. To each other and to our Corps. That's just the way it is.

Response by SP6 Jessica Regan made Sep 12 at 2014 5:17 PM

2014-09-12T17:17:49-04:00

I too was rescued by my fellow soldiers. They were Army.

Response by SP6 Jessica Regan made Sep 12 at 2014 5:21 PM

2014-09-12T17:21:06-04:00

WHO RESCUES THE MEN?

Response by Sgt Timothy Stuppy made Sep 13 at 2014 4:00 PM

2014-09-13T16:00:13-04:00

No, it is not sexist for you to think that fellow Soldiers should stand up for women. Regardless of gender, race, age, or sexual preference, any person in uniform is, or should be considered family first! That is the way it is in the Marine Corps. We all need to learn to take care of ourselves because no one else will! There is no race, gender or any of that crap in uniform...we are all green, blue, and in the case of the infantry...just plain dirty with mud, sand and filth. Regardless, we are all family. We should all strive to protect one another. We have a duty and a mission higher than ourselves when we join the military. It is unfortunate that there is not that cohesion in all branches, and it is sad that this conversation has to come to light!

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2014 11:58 AM

2014-09-17T11:58:43-04:00

For myself, I consider the title of Marine, and the aura that comes with it the greatest honor of my life. Nothing can replace the reverence I have experienced as people discover that I wear the cloth of a US Marine. Because of this, and this alone, we simply cannot allow ourselves to be soiled with audacities such as sexual assault, domestic violence and others. Not with our legacy. We are far from perfect and these things do happen in our Corps. If it is allowed to continue the magic will eventually fade, along with that sparkle in the eye of anyone who you just introduced yourself to as a Marine. That cannot be allowed to happen.

Response by Capt Lance Gallardo made Sep 21 at 2014 3:23 AM

2014-09-21T03:23:51-04:00

SSG Woods, your story as you recount it should bring tears to all our eyes . . . Isn't that we joined, to defend people who could not defend themselves? My best friend in the Marine Corps saved his roommates life, from a suicide attempt while at the Basic School in 1990. It was a heroic act, on the same moral level as rushing into that room and saving that female Marine from a Sexual Assault. "Looking out for each other" is not some slogan, or the last thing you hear in a Liberty Briefing. It is at the core of who we are and who we are supposed to be, and who we are called to be when we take the Oath of Office and Put on the Uniform of the Best Country on Earth. Army Navy Air Force and Marines . . . being loyal to your fellow Marine or Soldier means never having to explain why you didn't stand up for someone who needed your help. You are always prepared mentally, and physically, and MORALLY to do the right thing, when the time comes to act, when you are faced with that awful decision point? Do I speak up when I hear a sexist or pejorative comment? Do I set the tone in my section squad or platoon, that all hands will be treated fairly, and that there is no room for sexism or bullying of any kind? This is leadership, this is what it looks like, what it sounds like, what it feels like. It is palpable, it is real, you can almost taste it. When it is not there, when it is absent, you can feel that cold chill as well.

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2014 11:21 PM

2014-10-14T23:21:08-04:00

It's not the whole army it depends on the unit your unit has to have cohesion no cohesion no protecting each other. At my unit we watch out for each other, I can't recall how many times I have had "women" tell me they like being around me because they feel safe and protected. Now I don't know if it is just me or the rest of the men in the unit that give that secure feeling to them or not, but it still proves no cohesion no protection. Your unit is what you make it no more no less.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2014 12:49 AM

2014-10-15T00:49:32-04:00

Though it may seem simple, that's a very complex question. The military teaches us to see each other as equal regardless of gender. However human nature thinks otherwise. In my experience in the Navy I usually see females receive either preferential treatment or prejudicial. Rarely do I see the gender blind style of leadership. Though most female service members would not want any special treatment, many can't deny they benefit from it. Unfortunately there are those that use this to their advantage, giving all a bad rap. There are also those male leaders with ulterior motives for "protecting" their females. Usually they are easy to spot. In closing I say you should expect help simply for wearing the uniform.

Response by LCpl Karen Lowes made Oct 15 at 2014 10:23 AM

2014-10-15T10:23:29-04:00

I had never planned on sharing anything in regards to this specific topic. But after seeing your post, I cannot. I served in the USMC in the 1980's. The sexual harassment was something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. It started at my first post with lots of sexual talk and inappropriate touching by one man in particular. I reported it to my Gunny. He told me, "Good luck; it's your word against his." Looking back, I understand his comment. It was my commanding officer I was referring to. I was strongly advised not to pursue anything, and I didn't. Later oversees, I was told by an NCO (after telling him no when he asked me out) that basically all I was good for was being barefoot and pregnant, and mopping floors. Did I report that? No. After all it was just talk. And with a few other corporals and sergeants listening and not putting him in check, it wouldn't go anywhere. I was wrong. One corporal reported it. The others went after him and nothing was done. At my next duty station I was raped by an officer in the Air force. Being drunk, telling him no, and crying/begging him not to apparently meant yes to him. I was too afraid and ashamed to report it. I mean, after all, I was drunk. I must of had it coming. At my last post, stationed with the military police, I started receiving numerous phone calls at the barracks from a guy saying some pretty horrible stuff, sexual in nature and aggressively threatening. I was not the only one he was asking for by name. There were a few other women in the barracks he was requesting to speak to. This time I reported it to CID since other women could substantiate what was occurring. They ended up finding the guy. He was a Staff Sergeant, Military Police officer, married with children, in my battalion. No office hours or court martial. He was not even removed from his position as a police officer. Over the years, I have rarely shared these events (and more) with others. People don't get it. While serving, I was told to "suck it up, that's what Marines do." And I did... for many many years. A couple of years ago I was watching a rape scene on TV and totally lost it. That finally pushed me into doing something about it. A Gunny I served with told me about this documentary called "The Invisible War." He had heard about the movie from other female Marines and said it was worth watching. I found it on YouTube and watched it. I discovered I was not alone, and what had happened to me was not uncommon (I later wrote a paper on this topic and found that out of all the branches in the military, the Marine Corps has the highest % of rapes). After seeing an amazing therapist, I have been able to heal. My therapist is amazed that regardless of what happened to me while serving, I am still proud to call myself a Marine. I still took more good than bad from my experience in the Corps. I don't expect others, especially civilians, to understand that. I refuse to remain a victim of my past any longer, and the shame is gone. In hindsight, I wish I had had more inner strength to do more, but I was young, and it was a different time. I recently obtained my bachelors (even at my old age), and had the opportunity to work with disabled vets during two of my internships. What an amazing experience! I hope to eventually find work helping military vets/active duty with various types of disabilities. And folks, it took a lot for me to post this, so please don't be too harsh if you have opposing views.

Response by SPC John O'Brien III made Oct 15 at 2014 2:22 PM

2014-10-15T14:22:37-04:00

Honor and loyalty huh? Doesn't apply to Philippino tranny hookers eh? That Pemberton kid making the home town proud... New Bedford represent!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 12:28 AM

2014-10-23T00:28:41-04:00

I worked in a section that was all male....until I came along. Yes, they had hesitation on how to act and talk around me b/c I am a female. Until one day, I told them, that I am a soldier just like they are, they do not need to walk around on eggshells just b/c I work in their section. Those guys were and still are to this day, like brothers to me, they are some of my best friends.

Response by LCpl Rosalie Young made Oct 23 at 2014 9:17 PM

2014-10-23T21:17:52-04:00

Ok, what about sexual harassment from members of the same sex? I do not see this addressed here. It happened to me, and other female Marines have told me they had the same type of unwanted attention from apparently gay female Marines. One of my roommates at Quantico was gay. She thought nothing of having her girlfriends in the room, over night. Another lesbian was famous for jumping on beds and "tickling" unsuspecting female Marines. It happened to me one night and I had to lay the law down with this woman; I worked with her, so it made it harder on me because she outranked me.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Oct 24 at 2014 12:32 AM

2014-10-24T00:32:21-04:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods, I think you are mistaking a primal male response with some uniquely military sense of honor.

What those Marines did was nothing more than what my dormmates and I were prepared to do when a coed we knew collapsed in front of us after escaping from a would-be rapist -- as soon as she described her attacker, all but one of us (one of the guys had the sense to help her to a chair and call the police) was out the door scouring (unsuccessfully) the area around the dorm. Somewhere, I still have a copy of the school paper where we responded to an accusation that we acted like a bunch of "angry white dudes" looking for a black guy in jeans (the description we got was a bit more detailed than what got published in the paper).

You could call what we did some expression of Southern honor, but the reality was that we were presented with a no-question instance of one of our women being roughed up, and in our Neanderthal brains that meant we were driven to respond to protect her. The situation was clear, and we acted almost without thinking. We were of the same mind as the man who shot his son's molester.

Most sexual harassment experiences are nowhere near as undeniable, nor do they offer an opportunity for such dramatic heroism.

I still remember being baffled that a friend I met on my first deployment to Germany got no traction with her chain of command as her NCOIC's actions drove her from being a firecracker of a PV2 to accepting a discharge not much more than a year later. Thirty years later, I still feel I should have done something more, but I'll be damned if I can see what I could have done -- I was in a border Cav unit, and my home station (when we were there) was a kaserne 20 or 30 miles from where she was stationed, and the Army was overflowing with discipline problems in those days.

(Yes, I'm rationalizing my inaction, because remembering her tears still revives my first urge, which was to punch out the SOB. I'm not sure where I picked up the notion that problem people can be solved by an appropriate application of violence.)

Protecting women from harassment is much harder than stopping a blatant assault, and I think there are several posts here which show that the Marines haven't solved that fuzzier issue either.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 8:06 AM

2014-10-26T08:06:14-04:00

I was raised just like you were, treat women with respect and watch your mouth around them. However, I tried to hold the door open for female Soldiers but then I was yelled at because I was treating female Soldiers differently than male Soldiers. I don't want to be EO'ed, sorry your on your own now... Sadly I think the lack of respect for females in the Army (speaking from my experience only) is due to the over the top "we are equal" that now scares off male Soldiers from doing the right thing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 11:10 AM

2014-10-26T11:10:39-04:00

It is a whole other mentality in the Marines. When they get time off they generally stick together, ask around their units and neighboring companies to get ideas on whats going on that weekend, who's having a party, which party to go to, what beach has the better waves, stuff like that. In the army most soldiers have a few friends in their unit, and i use that term loosely because given the choice have hanging out with their soldier friends or connecting with high school friends back home they will choose the latter. why this is an important fact for this discussion is if you really feel connected to your fellow service members (as in the marines case) you care about them and look out for them no matter the situation or possible consequences. same principle goes for a bar, if a group of marines are in a bar, they see a single marine walk in and get into trouble (i.e. bar fight or someone delivering unwelcome attention) without hesitation they go to the rescue (which sometimes may be overbearing), same situation with a group of soldiers more often then not theyll turn their backs and pretend nothing is happenning.

Response by SrA Marc Haynes made Oct 26 at 2014 5:15 PM

2014-10-26T17:15:41-04:00

I think morals, values and honor should permeate all cultures, irregardless of branch. This should be true in both the military and civilian world. Unfortunately it does not! We can see by societies current situation. We should always take care of our own and by that I mean our fellow humans.

I was brought up in a society/time when respect was the norm. I still open car doors for my significant other. Yet in my past it offended a lady I was dating. I am who I am and I am a product of my upbringing. I do not apologize for this, I have morals and manners,

I have one question on the Marine story, how was the assailant "schooled" in proper behavior? This type of behavior is never acceptable and these types of predators do not belong in either a military or civilian society until they have learned how to conduct themselves.

Response by SGT James Hastings made Oct 26 at 2014 5:58 PM

2014-10-26T17:58:11-04:00

As an old man I was brought the way you said: open doors for women, walk on the outside so they don't get splashed by cars, etc. It is still ingrained in my mind. I hope that people still bring their children up that way. Women are equal to men in many, many ways and I respect that they might want to be treated as equals: because they are in most situations. But, I still will defend one if someone attacked her: verbally or physically. Some things just don't change.

Response by PO1 Phil Audritsh made Oct 27 at 2014 2:20 PM

2014-10-27T14:20:08-04:00

I witnessed a lot of discrimination, especially in the Marines, toward women. I also stood up for them, as I didn't feel it was right. I didn't see much sexual issues, mostly "you're a woman, you don't belong here" attitude. I was raised as you were. And at some point all people need to adapt and overcome...that is the same of both sexes.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2014 8:58 PM

2014-10-27T20:58:40-04:00

SSG Woods, I would have to say that being a Southern Gentalman has passed. I was raised that you protect the women in your family, and the female Soldiers in my Army are part of my family. Now Soldiers are Soldiers the habits that was instilled in me from my childhood still carry over in my military service. I hold the door for my female Soldiers an also for my junior male Soldiers.

So now for your sexiest comment lol. I don't think it is at all, but every Soldier should be treated with respect. Now you will have the local jacka** that just does not get it. Leaders need to squash it right then an explain that it will not be tolerated. An you are an NCO an you need to be a great example as to what is right. Now you are not the only one to burden this type of treatment you senior leaders need to back you up. An if you are not getting that you need to contact you local SHARP as they report to the Post Commander.

I would have to say the best SHARP training that I got was in Korea. Not your typical type of trading either. Not death by PowerPoint but it was eye opening event.

Hope I was able to answer your questions!!!

Response by LCpl Ed Mcgonigal made Oct 28 at 2014 8:58 PM

2014-10-28T20:58:23-04:00

I am a Marine that served in the late 80's. While I was in MOS training at Ft. Belvoir we had an incedent involving Army personel. They were ragging on a WM. Well are enforcer stood up and told them to shut up. One thing led to another while they were outside enforcer on top beating manners into him. Along come the mp's it ended up the one was an off duty mp. So without thinking about breaking up the fight out come the batons to help their brother being retrained. Are enforcer took a baton and put manners back into all three. So this is not a new and improved notion we protect are own when threatened.

Response by Cpl Jeremy Henderson made Oct 29 at 2014 3:34 PM

2014-10-29T15:34:20-04:00

That's why the Marines motto is "Semper Fidelis", Always Faithful.

Response by SGT Jason Anderson made Nov 1 at 2014 4:04 PM

2014-11-01T16:04:52-04:00

Is it wrong to expect another male soldier to come to your aid? Absolutely not.

Is it sexist? Well, by definition it very well could be.
The stuff I grew up seeing as "chivalrous" is indeed sexist.

If you do something for the opposite see that you would not do for your own - that is sexist. Does that automatically make it wrong? Nope.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2014 7:13 PM

2014-11-04T19:13:27-05:00

SSGT. V. Woods,
Yes, I know the Marine Corps is quite different, but the circumstances are not. I can't speak for every Marine that served in our Corps because I'm from a different generation of Marines. At the time I came in the Corps in 1972 we once had three distinct Marine Corps. One for Men and the other for Women and our Air Wing Marines. No pun intended here. Over the years ALL had become ONE Marine Corps. I had Marines of both genders under my command or vise versa and other branches of services, but I can tell you this. It doesn't matter to me if you are a Male or Female. Every Marine should be treated with Respect and Dignity. That's one for the Gunny and one for the Chief. The Army is a huge service environment in the DOD structure and a very good one indeed. The Marine Corps is small, but we still both have our missions and one of them is to TAKE CARE of OUR OWN. This is a disgrace to all Services, the Officers and the Senior Staff NCO Corps and especially to the DOD leaders. What's going to happen when the DOD decides for all who is concern to be unionized. I Hope to God not. Semper Fidelis, (Always Faithful) James

Response by MAJ Dallas D. made Nov 5 at 2014 9:19 AM

2014-11-05T09:19:59-05:00

I have to say I am honestly blown away by all the comments here. I joined in 1988 and I will tell you even back then if I would have heard of anything like this I would have beat the living s**t out of the perpetrator. This never should have been tolerated and thankfully it seems we as a military and as a nation are getting better at punishing this.

Response by SGT Teasha Boulet made Nov 5 at 2014 1:30 PM

2014-11-05T13:30:07-05:00

I know when we, women, enter any branch of the military we are entering a mans world. To be treated just as the men, yes, training and school....I agree with that. On the flip side....are we not all "brothers in arms"? Are we not ALL supposed to have each others back no matter the situation?? Women can be just as guilty of sexual harassment as men can. I was involved in a verbal situation related to sexual harassment.... my soldier "brothers" were there to defend me and stood up for me. I would do the same. Then that goes back to the lessons taught as children, "Treat others as you want to be treated"

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2014 11:06 PM

2014-11-10T23:06:43-05:00

STRAIGHT TO THE POINT: The serious amount of daily MENTAL/SEXUAL/PHYSICAL ABUSE by the male Marines against us female Marines is not only 100% REAL, but it is GETTING WORSE. I will not talk on my own personal "experiences" (to put it LIGHTLY) because I am extremely UNTRUSTING/CAUTIOUS. Instead, check it out for yourselves: simply Google 'female marines funny', or 'female marines wooks', or 'JTTOTS'...I could go on and ON with where to witness what is happening, but- hey, let's be real- I'm just a POG, WOOK, WHORE, DIKE, WM (Walking Mattress) right? Least- that's what the Marine Corps says.

Response by PO1 Steven Kuhn made Nov 11 at 2014 2:43 PM

2014-11-11T14:43:10-05:00

Sexual harassment has no place in our country or our military. The women who serve should be honored as much as they men.

r/

Steve
and if I did not open the door for a lady my father would reach from the grave to ring my neck! :)

Response by SSG(P) Matthew Bisbee made Dec 26 at 2014 2:40 PM

2014-12-26T14:40:26-05:00

I have always looked out for the well being of my fellow service members, male or female. I am horrified to hear that you have not had soldiers with a similar opinion in any of your units.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Jan 6 at 2015 10:09 AM

2015-01-06T10:09:01-05:00

There is no simple answer. Any time we talk about the interactions of people things become complicated by a factor of how many people we are talking about.

I was a Soldier (two decades ago), not a Marine, and I can tell you without a doubt that I and fellow (male) soldiers defended fellow (female) soldiers, just like in the story you described above. Why? Because it was the right thing to do.

However... there will ALWAYS be people in EVERY occupation and location that are of the opinion that someone of a different gender, race, religion, or sexual preference are inferior to them. In the case of gender stereotyping it could be that they were raised by parents who's relationship was that the wife played helpless and the husband took care of everything (my first wife is like that, she wants a man to take care of everything, freeing up her time to do nothing... she isn't stupid, or weak, just lazy).

There also will always be people who see perceived weakness as an opportunity to be exploited. That may mean taking advantage of a naive soldier financially, or a female soldier physically... Those people are scum for the earth, and we have to avoid applying their scumminess to a generalization about everyone of their demographic. So I'll give you three examples of relational interactions with fellow (female) soldiers of what I'm talking about:

- Tina was "same sex oriented" and a good friend of mine. An excellent light wheel vehicle mechanic, but a terrible all around soldier (barracks room was always a mess, barely passed PT tests). I owned 5 pairs of jungle boots and my Sunday afternoon SOP was to rent a couple of movies and polish them all so I wouldn't have to worry about it during the week. Tina would often join me and I would polish *one* of her boots, and she would spend the rest of the time trying to get the others to match. We had great times together as friends, the fact that her genitalia was different from mine didn't matter.

- Sarah was a first duty station private and I was a specialist at my last duty station. We worked together at HQ. I had come from a unit that lived in the field and had gone to Desert Storm. When our unit's annual "field exercise" came up (one night in a tent, and two weeks on "heightened alert" I fell right back into "Army mode" (as opposed to feeling like I had a civilian job where I wore BDU's). I started spending my "free time" going out to the guard post talking to whoever was on duty about what to look for, how to "play mind games with yourself" to stay alert, teaching as I had been taught. One evening Sarah was on guard duty when the base commander's driver played "Opposing force" and was running around base up to no good when we saw them and called it in... the only unit on base to do so. Sarah and I both got "atta-boy" letters in our folders. That progressed into spending more time together which eventually progressed into sleeping together.

- Cherry (I don't remember her real name, but she had a tattoo of of a cherry below the waist with the words "gone forever") we were in AIT together and was proud to show off the tattoo. One night she crept into my room in the barracks to give me a closer look at her tattoo (apparently I didn't seem impressed enough when she showed it off in the hallway). Being a young dumb 18 year old male with no thought to VD I was happy to let her have her way with me... but had she been totally unattractive to me I doubt anyone would have felt pity for her taking advantage of me. As a side note, I was far from being "pure as the driven snow" in those days, people called ME a "male-slut" and I deserved it... it didn't bother me and people didn't continue.

So what's my point? People are different, and generalizations suck. Based on Cherry we could make the assumption that "female soldiers are sluts". Based on Sarah we could come to the conclusion that "female soldiers are female soldiers, who need to be mentored, who want to develop into BETTER soldiers, and yes, there is a possibility of having a personal relationship with them.". Based on Tina we could come to the conclusion that "female soldiers are all dykes that should be treated like 'one of the guys'". All three assumptions would be wrong... and at the same time right...

Is it sexist for you to expect male soldiers to stand up for female soldiers? Yes it is. Is it sexist for ANY soldier to stand up for their FELLOW soldier(s)? No... that's comradery, and every unit strives to develop it.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2015 10:37 AM

2015-01-06T10:37:23-05:00

Yut

Response by Cpl Randy W. Kestner Jr made Jan 6 at 2015 9:06 PM

2015-01-06T21:06:33-05:00

We should protect all those that can't do it for themselves.

Response by PO2 Frances Smart made Jan 7 at 2015 10:05 AM

2015-01-07T10:05:33-05:00

I agree. I was sexually assaulted five times on active duty in the navy, and not only did no one, male or female, come to my rescue, but when I reported the incidents, they were promoted shortly thereafter, and my evaluations were dropped so far I was not allowed to advance. This was typical and commonplace in the navy, especially when I was in, which was during the period when they were just beginning to allow women into combat support roles. Like you, I am from the chivalrous South, and like you, I was not accustomed to a society where men would stand idly by and laugh while women were treated like a side of beef. I enjoyed my job, and I loved being in the navy, feeling as if I was serving a cause that was higher and more noble than myself, but the sexual assault and harrassment problem was more than I could handle.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2015 7:15 AM

2015-01-14T07:15:33-05:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods,
I also grew up in the South and my mother and Father taught me to open doors (especially car doors) and to treat women with respect. They also taught me to defend women. I have not been in or around a situation that the Marines you mentioned were in, but if I was I surely would have intervened.
Sexual assault and harassment is such a huge problem in the Army and it sickens me to the point where I don't want my daughters joining something that I have dedicated my life to. If I was assured that my daughter's teammates would be more like those Marines, I would change my mind.

Response by Sgt Stephen Walker made Jan 17 at 2015 4:22 PM

2015-01-17T16:22:15-05:00

It has been said before and i'll echo it again here. Speaking from the point that I myself am a Marine we, Marines, don't see color or sex or any other "identifier" all we see is green, the color of our uniform. I treat every Marine the same and hold you to the same expectations. We should concern ourselves with our fellow service members, not just those who are; female, black, hispanic, gay or lesbian, etc. All we should see at the end of the day is the color of the uniform and that should be cause enough.

Response by MAJ James Hastings made Jan 20 at 2015 8:48 PM

2015-01-20T20:48:27-05:00

I take issue w/the title of the thread "The Marines Defend Their Women"

God knows I am not the most politically correct man, but this title seems rather demeaning to woman. It conveys that woman are property needing defending.

Secondly, the narrative seems provocative in trying to make a distinction between the honor of male soldiers vs that of their marine counterparts. At the risk of appearing politically incorrect I think the whole thread is demeaning by attempting to find an argument for a deep seeded bias...a bias against male soldiers.

Response by Sgt Cortney Kangas made Jan 21 at 2015 9:30 PM

2015-01-21T21:30:43-05:00

I'm a woman who proudly served 8 years on active duty in the Marine Corps. The Marines I served with were my brothers and sisters, bottom line, and we treated each other that way. Sometimes that meant we gave each other flack but we still stood by one another. I had a stalker in the barracks for a short time and that situation resolved within days. The guys in my unit found out and told him that nobody messes with a Marine in CSSD-23 without dealing with all of them. We all did the same thing for guys in the unit. It was like that everywhere I went. It's called Esprit de Corps. We may have our gripes between infantry and POGs, men and women, etc but if you serve together nobody messes with your family.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 6:56 PM

2015-01-22T18:56:42-05:00

WOW

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 7:21 PM

2015-02-01T19:21:51-05:00

I saw this article a long time ago and like someone said previously in the thread, this one has grown legs and it's appropriate. I've seen a lot of Marines commenting and I'm glad that things have improved radically. One of the respondents mentioned her service in the '80s and I can relate. I served from 1979 though 1999.

During the '80s it had to have been tough on the women. Due to circumstances beyond their control, the standards were softer for women and there were some resentful guys. There was a lot of off-line grumbling about women not having to meet the same standards, they didn't have to field march like the guys -- or if they did, they could throw their pack in the back of a six-by. On and on.

You also have to understand that there were also a few women taking advantage of the situation, flaunting their sexuality on occasion, or generally being protected or promoted. Additionally, guys were being crucified for sexual harassment pretty routinely when many Marines around them suspected differently.

During the late 80's/early 90's, things started changing. Standards were being evened out and there was less perceived favoritism. And more women were in senior enlisted and officer ranks. And those women were holding other women accountable.

My favorite story of how things had progressed was when I was the SNCOIC of a department in the early 90's. I had just checked in and was replacing the outgoing SNCOIC who was accused of sexual harassment (I do not know how that turned out) by a female NCO.

A few months later, I was contacted by the company First Sergeant telling me that said NCO was due to attend NCO school. I called the individual into my office and, as we were instructed, delivered the order to pack her trash to attend NCO school as if it were my own order. The NCO quickly responded that I was sexually harassing her to send her to NCO school. I asked her to hang out a minute while I contact the First Sergeant. The First Sergeant (a female) responded with "REALLLLY?? Send [the NCO] to see me. We'll go see the Battalion Sergeant Major (a female)!"

That moment in time represented a major shift in the Marines for me.

Has resentment or harassment been completely eradicated? I doubt it. But from what I'm seeing in the thread, things have improved a lot "my Corps" and I see that my female Marine sisters (shoot, I'm old enough now to be Dad or Uncle) are now standing tall and being counted. Now if we could only stop arguing about uniforms! :) Best regards and Semper Fidelis Marines!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2015 11:58 AM

2015-02-09T11:58:45-05:00

The safest, most effective way to limit harassment and gender-related issues is max integration. Not because everyone is perfect, but because frequent contact shines a light on everything. When I've lived in integrated billeting, had to negotiate shared living/working spaces, etc. -- people didn't fraternize because there was no mystique. You knew who farted, snored, what they looked like in the morning, what their hygiene standards were, etc. And there wasn't a lot of outside relationships, either -- if you were gone often, everyone knew and checked up on you. If someone came by to hang out, all your unit knew and weighed in on whether that person was good enough, right for you, etc. etc. And then there were a million eyes seeing that person in other locations -- so if the relationship went a different direction, it came home pretty quickly, but everyone was there if you were down, and you weren't just moping around in your room by yourself being miserable.

We've gone to segregated gender billeting, and increased privacy for Soldiers across the board -- but that's eliminated a lot of what makes the military "home" or "family" for folks. It would be okay for the pendulum to swing back the other way a little bit.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2015 12:59 PM

2015-02-09T12:59:08-05:00

I must say that i don't agree with what say about army soldiers. it all has to so with the environment one foster, coming up through the ranks i see the good and bad. And i will say if you think u can get away with it mess with one of the female in or around my watch and find out.

Response by 1SG Bryan Morgan made Feb 9 at 2015 1:19 PM

2015-02-09T13:19:21-05:00

This is very true and as a former Infantry Marine I never disrespected any female Marine or Corpsmen. Also, we were taught that all Marines were equal across the board. Most importantly to never disrespect a woman both growing up in Southeast Arkansas and the military abroad!

Semper Fi,
CPL Morgan
0311/Infantryman
Echo Co, 2/7 1st Mar Div
1992-1996

This We'll Defend,
Bryan K. Morgan
First Sergeant
USA Retired

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2015 2:08 PM

2015-02-09T14:08:51-05:00

I am sorry you did not experience the support from your male counterpartsthat you needed. I cannot say the same of my male Soldier coworkers. We have been in bar settings in the past and they care for me as a big brother would their little sister. If anyone looked at me wrong, or even hinted towards foul thoughts of what they wish to do to me or my body, they step in right away and put that scoundrel on check. So, when you say that Soldiers do not have the same integrity as those Marines, I take offense. I challenge you to consider that not all males are the same.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2015 3:05 PM

2015-02-09T15:05:39-05:00

Thank you so much, SSG V. Michelle Woods for sharing this story and your own thoughts.

I shared a similar comment on another discussion in regards to females being allowed to attend Ranger training. In the same respect, that instead of arguing whether or not it should or should not happen... Would it not be more pertinent to stand up and support our fellow Soldiers as they take on this immense challenge?!

I personally have been blessed to always know my battles have my back. Whether male or female, they have always supported me, protected me and kept me in line when I was waivering. I strive everyday to do everything I can for my brothers and sisters!!

The day I am no longer proud to be a Soldier in this Army is the day I will get out and I hope that day never comes!!!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2015 9:20 PM

2015-02-09T21:20:37-05:00

Unfortunately if I did this in the Army I would be ostracized, if not for Equal opportunity than for sharp.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2015 10:50 PM

2015-02-09T22:50:04-05:00

I must begin by stating that it is good to make known that other male Marines came to the rescue of their fellow Marine that happened to be female, from assault by another Marine. High standards of honor and courage is amongst the great qualities required of those who serve in the US military, every branch of the military.
I'll continue by humbly stating that Soldiers do stand up for other Soldiers (gender not withstanding) and sexual harassment and assault has a zero tolerance in the Army, may not be 100% of male Soldiers that stand up for female Soldiers just like I know that it's not 100% of male Marines that stand up for female Marines against sexual harassment and assault.
Indeed, in the Army that I know, female Soldiers are respected and male Soldiers got the back of female and male soldiers alike.
The Army values include the requirement for all Soldiers to be honorable and have personal courage, standing up for what is right irrespective risk to self, female or male.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2015 11:48 PM

2015-02-09T23:48:03-05:00

That would be nice but there are as many rapist and sex offenders in the Marines as any other branch. I like to add that some if most might not have read the article of the murdered marine female who her unit failed to protect her after she filled a sexual assault against her rapist and future killer.......

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2015 8:42 AM

2015-02-10T08:42:18-05:00

Military members, regardless of gender or branch, should stand up for military members in need, regardless of gender or branch. Sexual violence is something that no one in the military should stand for and I don't know what those Marine's did to that dirtbag but I have a pretty good idea.

Response by SPC Robin Price-Dirks made Feb 10 at 2015 2:47 PM

2015-02-10T14:47:48-05:00

I am former Army, my husband a former Marine. We tease each other about who has the better armed force. I joined the Mans Army, I was the last cycle of experimental males and females together in basic training. When in basic we were all one force, one team, one unit. Esprit de corps was all we had day and night, together. It was great! Then we went to AIT school, and there was the wake up call! The same guys we pulled out of the mud or helped one of us suddenly was a sexist prick who felt we should have washed out. This was the unhappy few that were in supply jobs and wanted the coveted CBI but still.... There will always be issues as long as there are 2 sexes. I think most of us are adult enough to get over it but, there are pervs every where. In every service every job, civilian and armed forces. I even had a guy tell me to pick up a final drive by myself because I joined the military to be a man and a man could pick that up so I should be able to do that alone. This particular final drive weighed over 500 lbs, most of them weigh much more and require a fork lift to move. This was the milder forms of sexual harassment that I have experienced. I have been propositioned in a doctors office while naked, groped in various places, told I was being passed for promotion for a male because of course "I was just looking for a husband". I even lost my career in the ARMY because I wouldn't do horizontal favors for a sgt and a capt in my command. The Capt even showed up on my doorstep after I was discharged stating that "Now you don't have to worry about your rank and mine, You want to go out?". Most of the guys that I have talked to about this have said that had they known about it they would have rearranged a face or two for me. Back then you kept your mouth shut, I am glad there is more transparency now. On the subject of Marines, I'd call them any day if I needed help. Most of the ones I have known are outstanding human beings, male or female. Ignore the former Marine laughing in the corner telling me the Marines Always rescue the Army. Nah mommas got a carry permit now....

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2015 10:18 AM

2015-02-11T10:18:15-05:00

I can't speak to your experience, but I strongly disagree that the Marines stand up for their females more than the Army. Especially based off a single story. When I came up in the barracks we took care of female soldiers. I've personally witnessed soldiers intervening in situations where sister soldiers were either in harm or being discriminated against. It does stop at protecting service women. I remember a situation in BNOC where a classmate and myself stopped a guy on the street from Getting physical with his girlfriend. Soldiers have a duty to up hold a high set of values and they do so regularly. Thise you have failed to do so in your situation should in no way speak for the Army as a whole.

Response by SPC Larry Buck made Feb 11 at 2015 7:54 PM

2015-02-11T19:54:22-05:00

Should be required reading...
"Your knight in shining armor" by P.B. Wilson
Book for women, but can teach a man how to be a real man...
Your Knight in Shining Armor, P. B. Wilson.
https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=XfngAAAAQBAJ
If its only for the second, one second makes the biggest difference

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2015 9:27 AM

2015-02-12T09:27:07-05:00

I would agree with Chief Larkin and SSG Taylor below; units with high disciplinary problems will see these situation occur far more than units with stern but fairly enforced standards.

Further, why do we differentiate between male and female soldiers? When it comes down to it, does it matter. A soldier is a soldier, MOS aside the Army strives to replace individuality in every aspect with a team before self mentality; yet for some reason they abandon that principle hen discussing gender/sex standards.

Response by Sgt Erle Mutz made Feb 19 at 2015 1:58 PM

2015-02-19T13:58:37-05:00

ANY MILITARY PERSONNEL (male or female) "should have" enough integrity, honor, and respect for their colleagues (male OR female) 24/7!! Why? - Because our military is the strongest and modern force for defending our country (and "some others" that can't defend themselves-but not as a "world police force"). We came together as a "force to be reckoned with" from a country that was controlling, taxing, and militarily superior - did that stop us from defending our own survival and freedom? NO! (Dbl check your American History)! And - read carefully - the women helped more than men may want to acknowledge!! That being said, if we let individuals take advantage of our fellow personnel then we are degrading the very loyal fabric of our (earned) military integrity! Get it together guys!! Would YOU want some guy taking control of your Sister or Mother, or Grandmother??? I think not - so grow up, grow a pair and use them for what YOU WERE TRAINED FOR - FIGHTING THE ENEMY NOT YOUR OWN WOMEN (or Men)!!

Response by SPC Larry Buck made Feb 20 at 2015 12:37 AM

2015-02-20T00:37:00-05:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods , question do you know the soldiers names in this photo? One looks very familiar and I would like to request a name please...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 5:10 AM

2015-03-13T05:10:50-04:00

Great story. Very encouraging.

It absolutely is not sexist for you to expect male Soldiers to stand up for female Soldiers. That's how it should be. But unfortunately, that is not the case.

I was raised in the Pacific Northwest, which is vastly different from the South, but common courtesy and respect were a major part of my upbringing. Part of why I joined the Army is because I felt the Army's values were in-line with my own. However, I think there are a lot people that do not take our values to heart and do not live them everyday.

Soldiers should stand up for each other, regardless of gender.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 10:42 PM

2015-03-14T22:42:18-04:00

I agree with you we should all stand up for each other no matter what your sex is if we here someone in distress be it Army, Navy, Marines or Air force male or female does not matter we should help out.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2015 1:38 AM

2015-03-15T01:38:37-04:00

It looks like the bulk of the discussion happened months back, so I'll keep this brief. It is not sexist to expect male Soldiers to stand up for female Soldiers. As you said, it should happen regardless of gender. I think what is being described is a cohesive and strong unit, not a shortcoming of male Soldiers Army wide. A unit with high morale and Esprit de Corps is going to produce the type of individuals being described. In that respect, I think absolutely the Marine Corps has an advantage.

I do think unfortunately there is some level of an "us versus them" mentality within the Army. We've created a climate where many males are hesitant to interact with or correct females.

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/why-are-males-afraid-to-correct-females

This post discusses some of it. If we can find a way to build mutual trust between genders while still mitigating the issues with SHARP we'll all be better off as a force.

Response by PO1 Derrick Miller made Mar 22 at 2015 10:55 PM

2015-03-22T22:55:33-04:00

I think part of it is how individuals were raised. I have gotten in fights and near fights because someone insulted or hit a female acquaintance and would happily lay an ass kicking on a stranger if I saw them hit a female I didn't know, but I would have done that before I was in the service. But I couldn't tell you how many times I've run interference or pretended to be a friends boyfriend to keep creepers at bay.

Response by Sgt Spencer Sikder made Mar 23 at 2015 11:59 AM

2015-03-23T11:59:20-04:00

I applaud the Marines for that WM, however, VA has a long list of other WM's and other branches as well, who were not so lucky. So, let's not diminish the "real" trauma many women in uniform suffer or have suffered.

Wisdom comes with age and would I have treated people, women, differently if I had known what I know today, most definitely. As our society evolves, so does our thinking about what is right and what is wrong.

Response by SPC Don Stringer made May 30 at 2015 9:04 AM

2015-05-30T09:04:18-04:00

The only time I served closely with a female was in my National Guard Infantry Company, where we had a female records clerk. While I cannot speak for her, I believe she was treated as a team member, afforded all the same respect as the rest of us, was a sister in arms, and was not harassed in any way. (to my knowledge.)

Response by Cpl James Waycasie made Aug 24 at 2015 12:39 AM

2015-08-24T00:39:40-04:00

In the US Marines, we are all brothers and sisters forever. Any time, any place, against anybody, We will always have each others backs. Why? Because that's what family does.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Sep 10 at 2015 1:50 PM

2015-09-10T13:50:50-04:00

Sexual harassment is not tolerated in the Military period, no matter the branch of service! With that said, Army personnel have stopped forceful attacks on women and have reported as witnesses for maligned women in the past. Many convictions have been made with male testimony for the female victims.
Has there been bad press about sexual harassment, of course. However, you have to judge each case on its own merits. Men and women are human, they make mistakes and they sometimes lie, fabricate, or distort a story for their own personnel gain. It is sometimes very hard to discern the truth and it makes this investigatory process very grim.
All branches of the service attempt to protect their women and men from sexual battery. Unfortunately, there are times when the environment or the circumstances rear their ugly head. It is then that it must be decapitated and justice be done with all respect to the victim or victims.
Duty, Honor, Country are not just words to our military members, they are a creed that instills integrity in each of us and helps us to be better members of the Department of Defense. We are all military personnel and there should be no qualifier added such as male, female, black, white.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2015 4:39 AM

2015-09-23T04:39:40-04:00

Is it just me or do these marines look really young? The fish eye camera makes them look like kids in the picture.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Sep 23 at 2015 10:25 PM

2015-09-23T22:25:07-04:00

I am glad to see this! Thanks for posting!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2015 10:57 PM

2015-09-23T22:57:53-04:00

SSG V. Michelle Woods I commend you for posting this. The majority of men in the service are men of honor. I believe we (Soldiers) stand for each other regardless of gender.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2017 7:11 PM

2017-07-07T19:11:49-04:00

There can be good excuses for murder, theft and blackmail in my experience, but rape there is never am excuse great enough to justify it. Rape is just wrong. In the military it happens way to often it should not happen at all. We as in the enlisted and especially junior enlisted need to do a better job policing ourselves and holding our shipmates it battlebuddies accountable and prevent incidents like this because regardless of gender we need to look after our brothers and sisters because out beyond the wire that's all we got. It didn't matter about liking the person or not because we will all be reliant on one another to get certain tasks done. There is first and foremost rape is just wrong and we need to prevent wrongs not make more and every service member individually need to hold themselves to standard of excellence we expect from others.

Response by Matt Moon made Mar 15 at 2018 3:55 PM

2018-03-15T15:55:38-04:00

Woman have every right to serve there country just like we do that dosent make them any less compared to us .

Response by SSG Dale London made Sep 12 at 2019 11:06 AM

2019-09-12T11:06:51-04:00

Let me start by saying I have been out of the service for a long time. I served from 1980 to 1996 and I must confess that I am shocked at the change I see through the threads on these pages.
When I joined, the guys I served with would have done exactly what those marines did. I know because when I went to basic training at Fort Jackson, our company was mixed (two male platoons and two female platoons).
One of the guys from our platoon was caught by his squad mates peeking into the girls' showers. He stopped peeking when his eyes swelled shut. 'Nuff said.

Response by Cpl Rose Flores Dugan made Sep 12 at 2019 12:32 PM

2019-09-12T12:32:50-04:00

It’s not too much. I’m happy things have changed for better. I remember when I was just slightly outside the base when my husband at the time was slamming me on the ground. There were a few marines that looked but continued to drive by. Thank you Jesus for the brave hearts of the marines that saved the WM.

Response by SSG Steve Jackson made Jan 5 at 2020 10:07 PM

2020-01-05T22:07:15-05:00

Wait I know Male Soldiers who stood up for and defended Female Soldiers, who stood against there command over it, so it's not to much ask and I really think it's not to much to expect

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2024 11:25 AM

2024-04-16T11:25:43-04:00

It's powerful hearing about that Marine's experience. I get where you're coming from; it's not about expecting special treatment but about solidarity. I've seen similar camaraderie in other units too. Gender shouldn't matter when it comes to having each other's backs. It's about respect and support, plain and simple.

Response by Chris Tressler made Apr 16 at 2024 12:53 PM

2024-04-16T12:53:15-04:00

Looks so good all of you together. Keep up the good work.