Time wasting and the military? The Cost Of Treating Troops As Free Labor Providers

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Oct 2015 18:44:34 -0400

The writer offers a pretty refreshing look at the "15min prior to the 15min prior" unwritten rule we have the military. I think it's definitely true the cost of staying late comes at a price; of morale and retention of otherwise good service members.
I remember my days under a particularly zealour commander who kept our whole company regularly during the week till about 21 or 2200. I remember an early release Friday was at 1930. Needless to say it reflected in the companies morale which quickly tanked.

Anyway, give it a read? How's your experience with this issue? What do you think of this?

http://taskandpurpose.com/the-cost-of-treating-troops-as-free-labor-providers/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=tp-facebook&utm_campaign=culture

The Cost Of Treating Troops As Free Labor Providers

Far too many leaders come at any problem with the assumption that labor is free.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Oct 27 at 2015 6:59 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Tue, 27 Oct 2015 18:59:21 -0400

As with anything in life people need to have respect for our troops' time

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2015 8:24 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Oct 2015 20:24:10 -0400

I truly support that time is valuable. Counselings are made for positive and negative actions. Soldiers higher in rank tend to forget that. If soldiers are late then counsel them and punishment if needed(becomes a regular thing). But it all has a step by step process. Soldiers do have family and some don't but time after work could be used to progress. As in college or any other certifications. It can be used for productivity for themselves. Every soldier has their thoughts,needs, and do's on their personal time. It's their choice. We are all adults and we all signed up for this. It's what you do on your own time that counts. You control your life at all times.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Oct 27 at 2015 8:39 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Tue, 27 Oct 2015 20:39:08 -0400

Service members are paid a salary for a reason......

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2015 10:44 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Nov 2015 22:44:02 -0500

I just came across this article, I thought it brought up a lot of great points. In fact, it pointed out a lot of the reasons why I am not re-enlisting.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 4:48 AM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 04:48:11 -0500

I had a rule in my squadron. If I'm more than 5 mins late to any meeting, either start without me to share information as needed or leave and we will reconvene at another time.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 5:58 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 05:58:58 -0500

I think we have all experienced this at one point or another. 1700 roles around and that last minute tasking finally makes it way down the pipe and there we are until 2100-2200 maybe even later cleaning weapons or rearranging a connex, maybe the motor pool line wasn't straight. But the point is that it could've all been taken care of before 1700. More recently in The last 3 months I've spent searching vehicles 5 days a week. Doesn't sound that bad right? Well let me enlighten you. Night shift for example. PT starts at 1600. PT for about an hour then be at the motor pool by 1830 to start getting our trucks ready. Pick up our ammo and weapons and other gear then be at guard mount by 2000. Brief usual last about 10 mins if nothing important needs to be put out. Then finally we get our search points at 2100 usually 15 mins early so we relieve our fellow MPs. Then we search until 0500 until our relieve replaces us. After doing the reverse of above I get home by 0630 if I'm lucky. Do the math and that's 15 hours a day. Get home go to bed, wake up, do it all over again. For 3 months, 75 hours a week no three days or four days. No holidays. I was lucky enough to always have my 2 days off. But we are so low on man power that one person had to take leave for surgery then we had multiple people working 6 days with 1 day off. Now while doing this. We are still getting called from our chain of command to turn in IA certificates or handle administrative things during the day. Want to know how fast soldiers can stop caring? Pretty damn quickly. Now throw in the fact that people are married and have children. A family to take care of. Then the unit wonders why no one wants to reenlist. Stop treating soldiers like numbers...

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Nov 3 at 2015 9:06 AM

SFC David Pope, MBA — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 09:06:20 -0500

When I was in the 25th ID we had Thursday activity days. We went bowling or some other activity from 1300 to 1630, and then we were released to go home. This was a morale booster because we were deployed all the time. Commanders like the Captain you described are insecure about their ability to lead, and don't have confidence in themselves. They try to overcompensate by using ineffective and somewhat counterproductive methods of control. Hopefully there is a senior NCO that is willing to call bs on this behavior. The military in itself is stressful, but for unit leadership to add to the stress by pointless tasks is idiotic. This is one of the main reasons I am using the military in my doctorate program. DBA in Organizational Behavior and Leadership!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 9:30 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 09:30:17 -0500

I think you have a point, have forgotten some things

Find a job in the civilian world where you get a 90 paid lunch. Time to take appointment without question in the civilian world you get no pay if you are not at work unless you are on salary and still it is monitored. God forbid you hurt yourself unless you have sick leave accrued you are not paid for the duration of your illness. In the military we get time off you make the article sound as if we are at work 24 hours a day when we all know that is not true most times we are busier trying to figure out how to get a mission accomplished while everyone is on appointment so we end up staying till 2100-2200

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 9:48 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 09:48:57 -0500

Hard work (sometimes stupid work) makes "good soldiers" get out? That's a contradicting statement. Too often in the complaining we hear about "good soldiers" getting out. Pretty subjective statement if you ask me, because for every supposedly good soldier that gets out, I got to work with countless that stick with it, and don't get all butt hurt and bratty about a couple of late nights. Yes, there's plenty of bad commanders. Commanders come and go. Yes, there are some undesirable duty stations. Assignments come and go. EVERYTHING is temporary and "good" dedicated soldiers know that. Good, dedicated soldiers see the bigger picture. Let them go. If you want to compare with the civilian sector, go ahead, play in the civilian sector and see how quickly you are tempted to come back. This is a GOVERNMENT JOB that employs half a MILLION people PLUS DACs and contractors. The givernment teet can only trickle, and you better know that when you sign up (And appreciate it). The article makes a good argument or two, but from the perpesctive of that disgruntled, whiney, "good soldier". Quite frankly I think it grossly exagggerates the effects of some a-hole decisions and management. I'd imagine the Army wpuld have an easier time cutting down on troop numbers if this were true than going on a fatty witch hunt. "I'm getting out because of...." I say let them go. No one individual is so unique that they cant be replaced within a week and a unit "is never the same."

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Nov 3 at 2015 10:23 AM

MSgt Michael Smith — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 10:23:44 -0500

I always found these types of things really irritating and unnecessary. Its so ingrained in military culture that people don't even realize the waste involved in it. You can waste time just like you waste water, money, equipment, etc. When you make troops work overtime/exta duty with no good reason behind it you are wasting their time they need to rest and recover. It is going to effect morale, energy levels, and ultimately job performance and your mission. And the whole 15 minutes early to the 15 minutes early thing is based on a culture of mistrust. We should strive to fix these things. Just because something is part of the military culture does not mean its correct.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 10:26 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 10:26:52 -0500

Joining that military is more a calling than a job. I was to NTC, overseas, a bunch of different places: when we used to add up all our time and calculate how we got paid $1.50 per hour or less, not counting the time we were restricted because of field duty. It goes with the territory. The military isn’t ideal for raising a family unless you have the right personalities involved either.

One can’t try to compare being in the military to a civilian job. I see people trying to compare time off, more pay, benefits, stuff like that. To my military brethren: Let me assure you, civilians don’t have an easier time “if you’re in a position of responsibility”. How many nights I work late, or lay awake thinking of a problem at work when I should be sleeping, or I’m required to be away from home and family; I worked both sides, neither is easy.

If you get out and want straight hours, all you have to learn is how to ask “Do you want fries with that?” That’s the only kind of position you will find without responsibility.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 12:22 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 12:22:14 -0500

It seems that many are misunderstanding the article, or at least understanding it differently from how I understood it. The article is about WASTING time of Soldiers. It is about things like keeping an entire unit at Drill until 11PM on a Sunday evening because somebody, somewhere, was busy doing something that they should have done on their own time. It is about spending countless hours each drill weekend standing around waiting for some random soldier to happen along to let you into the "2nd building" which requires a key card, because the unit doesn't trust anyone to have access cards. It's about raking Sergeant Major lines into the sand, or hauling out load after load of pine needles from under the pine trees, because someone thinks it looks pretty. What it is about, is inefficiency. Anyone who thinks that inefficiency should just be considered a part of military life, and that Soldiers just need to suck it up, can add themselves to the list of reasons why it takes decades to win wars these days.

Response by 2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 3:40 PM

2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 15:40:50 -0500

Great read. As an aircraft maintainer, I've experienced pretty much every example the article brought up, and I agree there is a price. There's a lot of reasons why I left my last unit when I got the chance, and the fact that it strongly started trending towards what's discussed here certainly was a factor. It surprises me many of the leadership staff at units don't understand what this article talks about. I saw the negative effects it had almost daily as an E-4, and that some SNCO's and officers either didn't see it or didn't care astonishes me.

In short, this article hits the nail on the head. I agree with it wholeheartedly.

Response by PO1 Fred Gittner made Nov 3 at 2015 9:09 PM

PO1 Fred Gittner — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 21:09:13 -0500

while attached to the CB's we would wait in formation 30 to 60 min each and every day waiting for staff to come out after a morning meeting. Take that time times 600 men now there is waste of man hours

Response by SPC William Weedman made Nov 3 at 2015 9:17 PM

SPC William Weedman — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 21:17:43 -0500

I think the biggest time waster for me that I finally got a straight answer to was the NCO meeting every home station drill that occurred at 1630 every evening. It was E-6 and above only no E-5 or E-4 in NCO slots need bother, we were shown the door quickly, but the E-4 & E-5 full timers were there, along with the officers. Since our E-6 & E-7s tasked the E-5s with assignments after lunch to keep us occupied and they disappeared into the orderly room, why wasn't that meeting held at 1400? At 1630 we were standing around on the drill hall floor, waiting for final formation as their meeting was just beginning. Just before I got out, I talked with a former E-5 who was in med school and was made a 2LT, they could not throw an officer out of the meeting. It was actually nothing, 95% of the information the NCOs needed was parsed out through the afternoon, but never delivered to the troops before the final formation. Apparently the NCO meeting "had always been" at 1630... So our final formation was always after 1700, the info that we needed could have been delivered 2 hours earlier, and instead our 1SG delivering it was up to the PSG to hold us after we were dismissed to deliver the information, usually it was simply date of next drill, uniform of the day for that drill, and whatever rules the lower enlisted had been caught breaking (usually the gas station next door to our armory was "off-limits" even though we fueled our vehicles there, someone was seen walking over there during the day...) There was a reason why my buddy & I volunteered for every support mission/split training mission we could, at least a med support mission on a range or FTX was doing something useful and after we were done we could leave.

Response by PO2 Robert Cuminale made Nov 4 at 2015 6:03 AM

PO2 Robert Cuminale — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 06:03:19 -0500

There was a PO1 in my department who wouldn't leave junior personnel alone. Typically we worked our daily routine and we alternated an overnight duty and then had to work the next day. The overnight duty had certain routines like driving the Liberty run at 6PM and 10PM. Then rounds of the water and sewage plants. If there was a problem there might be additional inspections added. Sometimes you could get 3-4 hours sleep. At 5AM the civilians came in to gas their vehicles and you had a handwritten log of how much gas they got. You'd get off at 7AM and then have to work al day.
This PO would come up with nonsense that just had to be done post 1700 hours. He'd call me out to change a street lamp, keep you past 1700 to flush the HVAC system, etc. All things that should have been done during the day.
On the duty nights my wife would drive in with dinner and he would find some way to interrupt it or show up while we played a board game. I would follow her home at 10PM on my last liberty run.
word got out once that he was being transferred. This guy was disliked by everyone on the base because he wouldn't leave anyone alone. People kept calling Personnel to see if it was true. Unfortunately the orders were to transfer him from one command to another on paper.
Bet you couldn't guess his home was a mess? His 14 y/o daughter liked to hang around the barracks. He had me changing a light bulb one night when the radio crackled out a report that she had entered one barracks. He made drive him over there so he could drag her home.
Everyone knew she was on birth control due to a Corpsman's indiscretion. He even brought it up one night to me saying it was to regulate her period. He assumed I knew and I did.
Incredibly this POS made Chief.
I detail this as an example of why so many of us got out. The Navy seemed to be full of misfits like this man. To top it off we worked for a Chief who was one of 12 the Navy said was unfit to be a Chief yet nothing was done about him. The LCDR over us never came to the shops and despite the complaints about both of them did nothing but hide out in his office with his paper work.
I'd like to believe this kind of nonsense doesn't go on any more. Yes, I was very happy to get out and in the middle of a recession too.

Response by Sgt Ronnie Mack made Nov 4 at 2015 7:18 AM

Sgt Ronnie Mack — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 07:18:03 -0500

I can remember my time in Iraq. I was motor t. The company office needed/wanted us to report to them at 0800hrs. My OIC wanted us in the motor Poole a hour prior. My SNCOIC wanted us in the motor Poole a hour prior to that. Then, my Plt Sgt wanted us there one hour prior to the hour prior to the prior hour. Finally I was a squad leader and couldn't do it to my Marines with a another prior hour order. So, all in all. We had to be in the motor Poole at 0500hrs for pm's (prior maintaince) for a 0800 run! So I hope that answers ur question on micro managing! I hope!!!!!!

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Nov 4 at 2015 10:49 AM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 10:49:22 -0500

Welcome to the Army... Marine Corps... Navy... Coast Guard... NOT SURE about the USAF. I am sure the GI's at Valley Forge

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2015 8:39 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 08:39:05 -0500

looks like they are just picking up brass , we all have done it. aint nothing wrong with that.

Response by SPC Ryan D. made Nov 6 at 2015 3:30 PM

SPC Ryan D. — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 15:30:09 -0500

A salary does not excuse a leaders/managers inability to properly manage their subordinates time. The 15 minutes prior to 15 minutes prior leading to an 18 hour day is the result of poor leadership, plain and simple.

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2015 7:50 PM

Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 19:50:57 -0500

During my career we cleaned all....and we were proud of our service, now is all about cost savings we can pay contractor to do it all...we just got it done and go home...our bldgs, yards, trees, on base were well maintain all because soldiers did took care of what enjoy and come to work at or use the same with the military equipment there is a lot of money spent but soldiers do not take care of the equipment like we used to back then is all related to how much the Army is changing.