Was President Obama being disrespectful to General Dunford or General Dempsey?

2015-05-08T20:04:52-04:00

Is the President using first name basis with his subordinates in public disrespect for the servicemen, like with the Chief of Staff and Vice Chief of Staff nominations for General Dunford and General Demspey during their nominations.

He uses their rank and last name only a few times, but mostly sticks with using their first names.

One of the things I am reminded off by my superiors to the rest in the commands I have been in for the 12 years I have been in, is use rank and last name. If the person is above my rank, I have used their rank or in the Navy rating like OS2/AE3 insert last name, and with those I outrank or same rank of, I use their last name. I also don`t expect those below me to repeatably use my rating over and over in a lengthy conversation. As long as they start off with my rating with or without my last name.

I know in more informal settings, parties, out of uniform, not on duty, or away from the eyes of their seniors some people go by first name basis, but that is usually a trust between those individuals.

To me, President Obama was more disrespectful in the manner he was to familiar while in public and on camera.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 8:06 PM

2015-05-08T20:06:12-04:00

Not at all. I think it was more a sign of respect. When a senior calls me by my first name I take it as a compliment and I do the same for my NCOs. If they have earned my respect and I have confidence in them I will call them by their first name when not in the presence of other seniors.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 8:07 PM

2015-05-08T20:07:12-04:00

It is, very much so. But then again, I am used to see his dismal disrespect for our fighting man, and spiking the football when he can

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made May 8 at 2015 8:10 PM

2015-05-08T20:10:14-04:00

My boss uses first names all the time. As a Colonel and my commander, he is afforded that privilege by tradition. With my mentees, I also use their first names. The POTUS as CiC, by tradition, is also afforded that level of latitude as to what to call subordinates. Granted, tradition also dictates you try not to do it in front of the troops though....

Response by BG David Fleming III made May 8 at 2015 8:19 PM

2015-05-08T20:19:05-04:00

Not at all! View it as a 1LT having discussions with a 2LT and using first name. Perfectly acceptable.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 8 at 2015 8:19 PM

2015-05-08T20:19:12-04:00

No I think that first name informality is everywhere within each person's respective circles. Like I wouldn't be going up to the president and be calling him Barack, but I would my senior NCO if we were planning or having a one-on-one.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 8 at 2015 8:21 PM

2015-05-08T20:21:52-04:00

This is one of those Officer/Enlisted perception issues.

As Enlisted we just don't use first names as a common practice. It's Rank & Last name. Call sign is about as familiar as we get.

Officers however are much "familiar" relatively. Coming from a "staff" position, it was very common to hear seniors call juniors by first names, as well as peers.

As for the President, he is a Civilian, and expecting him to maintain "our" protocols is probably too much. When he was introduced to the Generals, it was probably as General First Name Last Name, to which he promptly remembered "Joe" & "Marty" (no disrespect intended towards the Generals, just using their names to highlight the example). That's just how he knows them.

Behind closed doors, he likely calls them that, and they call him Mr. President or Sir, and he wonders why they don't call him "Barry" after repeated requests to do so. It's not disrespect, it's just different customs.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made May 8 at 2015 8:25 PM

2015-05-08T20:25:43-04:00

He's a civilian with no clue about military courtesies. In his world, calling subordinates by their first name is probably a sign of affection or friendship. If he was pissed, he would call the "General."

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 8:54 PM

2015-05-08T20:54:04-04:00

If my commander calls me by the Rank/name or my job title, then I am probably about to get scolded or I am being introduced or referenced by him to an outside entity.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 8 at 2015 9:13 PM

2015-05-08T21:13:20-04:00

No, I don't believe he was being disrespectful, as seniors generally call officers by their first name, unless you are in trouble. That said, he is liberal (to the hilt), and liberal politicians absolutely don't respect or appreciate our military. Liberals (politicians) believe we are in the military because we are stupid and can't do anything else. So, I guess in I do be believe he could be being disrespectful.....

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made May 8 at 2015 9:17 PM

2015-05-08T21:17:46-04:00

In a very public setting its disrespectful to call a senior officer by their first name. In more private settings first names are okay depending on your relationship. President Obama is the Commander In Chief and he needs to show proper respect to the officers under him. I rarely ever saw senior officers on a ship address a junior officer by first name only, occasionally by title such as SUPPO, CHENG, DISBO, Warrant, etc.
I know that POTUS is not in the military but he needs to respect military protocol.

Response by Capt Ron Sherlock made May 8 at 2015 9:24 PM

2015-05-08T21:24:13-04:00

No. I don't think he was being disrespect. However, I believe he should have used their rank and last name when introducing them to the public. Because by doing that, it conveys proper tradition and the strength of the office these men are taking. If look at the CinC actions and listen to his speeches. He appears to have a very informal style. That's not a rip. That's an observation. (I'm a political science major) I believe he is that way as a purposeful way to speak to his targeted electorate and to come off as the common man everyday Joe kinda guy. My opinion.

Response by MSgt Brian Welch made May 8 at 2015 9:33 PM

2015-05-08T21:33:05-04:00

It's bad form but his prerogative.

Response by LTC J. Lee Mudd made May 8 at 2015 9:39 PM

2015-05-08T21:39:19-04:00

I note on the comments here that those who find the President's familiarity disrespectful are (generally) junior or mid-grade enlisted personnel.

As Sgt Kennedy stated above, it is normal for commanders and senior officers to address subordinates by first name, often including senior enlisted members. Once a working relationship is established, those addressed by first name are the 'in crowd;' those addressed more formally are on the outside.

Personally, I prefer to address officers I know and work with regularly by first name, while continuing to address NCOs by rank, and junior EMs by last name.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 10:22 PM

2015-05-08T22:22:22-04:00

It is very common for ranking officers to address their subs by first name. Why is this kind of stuff being dredged up about POTUS anyway?

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 10:49 PM

2015-05-08T22:49:18-04:00

He is the POTUS. He can and will do as he pleases whether we approve or not. Im sure we all want to believe it wan't meant in a disrespectful manner.

Response by CW3 Craig Linghor made May 9 at 2015 12:06 AM

2015-05-09T00:06:31-04:00

Higher ranks usually address lower ranking officers by their first name. No disrespect.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made May 9 at 2015 12:08 AM

2015-05-09T00:08:10-04:00

PO2 Joseph Papin, It is a good thing he was not addressing General George C Marshall by his first name!

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 12:23 AM

2015-05-09T00:23:59-04:00

I do not think that it is appropriate to use first names in public. Yes, he is the Commander in Chief, if he wants to use first names while in private that is certainly his prerogative. In public they are General Dunford and General Dempsey.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made May 9 at 2015 12:24 AM

2015-05-09T00:24:22-04:00

Shouldn't matter, honestly if I was the president, I could care less if they didn't call me Mr. President and just called me Eddie.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 1:00 AM

2015-05-09T01:00:22-04:00

This is all to common. All officers call their subordinate officers by first name. Why? I don't know. Is it right? No but it is what it is.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made May 9 at 2015 1:55 AM

2015-05-09T01:55:24-04:00

I think you can see the problem just by reading down this thread - if you split the enlisted out, you'd see "TOTALLY!" because we weren't allowed to do it. EVER. The officers have a completely different view because they did it all the time.

That said, we live in a representative republic, not a military dictatorship. The idea that the president is bound by military formalities is an extremely new one. It is a civilian position by design. The architects of the Constitution knew the dangers of creating a ruling class.

Response by PO1 John Miller made May 9 at 2015 3:05 AM

2015-05-09T03:05:34-04:00

While I personally don't care for President Obama (Barrack, lol), I honestly don't see a problem with him using the General's first names.

As others have already stated, it is very commonplace and accepted for superior officers (in this case the Commander In Chief of the US Military) to address subordinate officers by their first names.

Response by SSgt Marshall Franklin made May 9 at 2015 3:23 AM

2015-05-09T03:23:54-04:00

when I was an airman one of my best friends with a captain and I never called him Captain and his last name I always call him Norman that was his first name. of course other officers I called him Sir or ma'am and use the rank and last name. even my LT we got the habit of calling her ma'am but we never used your first name and we never called her by her last name. she always called us by our first names. in a way when an officer appointed over me call me by my first name made me feel more like I was somebody rather than just an airman assigned to do a job. now the chief and the first sergeant on the other hand I don't even think they knew what our first names were.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 9 at 2015 5:49 AM

2015-05-09T05:49:19-04:00

OMG, people actually supporting Obama in this post. What is the world coming to :-)

Response by SMSgt Michael Carl made May 9 at 2015 11:27 AM

2015-05-09T11:27:19-04:00

He is the Commander in Chief and out ranks everyone in uniform. It is his perogative to use first name. There is no disrespect in it at all. To the contrary, it shows a closeness and affiliation with the individual.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made May 9 at 2015 11:53 AM

2015-05-09T11:53:14-04:00

No, this has to do with several things.
First, while the Commander in Chief, the President is not a member of the military and not required to follow military protocols.
Second, it has to do with his leadership style, which is informal when it comes to things like this.
Third, If looking at the senior Officer ranks (which would be the correct military comparison here when talking about the CiC and multi-star types), it is very common for the senior guy to address others by their first name.
Fourth, If looking at the senior ranks of most civilian & government organizations (which is the CORRECT comparison), it is by far the NORM to call subordinates by their first name. It also quite often flows the other direction too. My civilian chain of command goes "Bob --> Ernie --> Joel." For the life of me, I can't remember Ernie's last name right now. That last wouldn't be appropriate from the generals to the president, because they ARE members of the military and bound by its expectations.

Having said all the above, I think that the U.S. could benefit from a bit more MR/MRS/MS formality and professional distance. I hate everyone being on an immediate first name basis and I think it cuts down on efficient and productive work environments. But that has nothing to do with this particular issue. Likewise, I think people should actually dress like they are working at a job, not going to the club...

In short, it is within the currently accepted norms, would seem to indicate a positive relationship (like I would want the CiC to have with senior military leaders), and does not convey any intent to disrespect.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 2:31 PM

2015-05-09T14:31:36-04:00

All of my bosses have used my first name. I think it's much more common on the officer side of the house.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 4:48 PM

2015-05-09T16:48:04-04:00

I have never been a supporter of the President, but he wasn't being disrespectful. Army Officers typically call their subordinates by their first names. If they don't, it implies that they're not to find of the individual. Recognizing someone by their first name is simply making the conversation more personal. Again, not a fan of the Preseident, but no harm here.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made May 9 at 2015 5:15 PM

2015-05-09T17:15:28-04:00

I've heard people of rank do that with each other.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 6:13 PM

2015-05-09T18:13:38-04:00

Well above my pay grade to be commenting on first names! I got troops to lead!!!!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 6:19 PM

2015-05-09T18:19:23-04:00

Nope. I don't mind being called Danny by my superiors. It's their right and I actually think it puts us on a more personal basis. They trust me. I think at the top, they'd feel the same.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 6:33 PM

2015-05-09T18:33:49-04:00

Not out of the ordinary. I've heard generals call each other by first names during many briefs.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 8:00 PM

2015-05-09T20:00:45-04:00

He outranks them all. I don't know where you worked, PO2 but I am used to hearing officers call each other by first name bases and especially when they outrank the rest. They occasionally refer to each other by rank and last name. Sounds just like the speech doesn't it? Don't get yourself worked out over norms.

The only place I have seen enlisted call each other by first name bases has been in the Special Operations community.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 9 at 2015 8:07 PM

2015-05-09T20:07:43-04:00

I think the president sometime have so much in mind that he forget to use ranks and last name. But i understand the comcern.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 8:25 PM

2015-05-09T20:25:30-04:00

Well, and this is just me, but I will always relate to a soldier as a person before I relate to them as a soldier. As soldiers we change so much to adapt to what the army throws at us. In the end who you are as a person is what will shine through.
Now I will always show respect to my comrades but do I expect my superior to blurt out my rank and name or just my last name all the time. No. I have 4 titles to be called by. Whichever one they choose, I could care less. Having said that... A subordinate wouldn't dare acknowledge me as anything other than the NCO I am. But when we are out of uniform off post and off duty they can call me whatever they want.
I think we get to tied up in honors that we forget to see actual problems in the army.
In my eyes the President of the United Sates can call me whatever he wants. My life's accomplishments are not hanging on what someone disused to call me by. I'm sure a General has bigger issues than someone calling him by his first name.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 8:25 PM

2015-05-09T20:25:57-04:00

I don't, but that's just me. I think on the scheme of things the fact that the POTUS uses the first name of some other high up dudes I'll never meet is an extremely irrelevant thing.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 12:21 AM

2015-05-10T00:21:03-04:00

I vote no disrespect, PO1 Private RallyPoint Member. From what I've read, President Obama did use their rank and last name, but also used their first names. I see that as respect and an attempt to show a familiarity (rapport?) with his senior military officers. To me that's a good "mix" for the POTUS addressing senior military officers who are still subordinate to the Commander-in-Chief.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 1:28 AM

2015-05-10T01:28:37-04:00

Officers in a regular unit use first names. No difference here.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made May 10 at 2015 1:31 AM

2015-05-10T01:31:46-04:00

Naw, that's not disrespect, senior leadership does that all the time. if you're going to ding OB on something. ...make it bigger than that, so the left wing nut cases don't use that against ya

Response by CW5 Roy Rucker Sr. made May 10 at 2015 3:43 AM

2015-05-10T03:43:07-04:00

He's the Commander and Chief and can you first or last name at his discretion. I see General Officers do it with their subordinates all the time and no one ever questions it.

Response by CSM David Heidke made May 10 at 2015 9:14 AM

2015-05-10T09:14:41-04:00

Officers do this all the time.

I ask my commander to not use my first name in the company of others. He doesn't have to comply, but he does. I mention it the first time I hear my first name used.

Other officers, I sternly correct them and tell them that as far as they are concerned my first name is Sergeant Major.

I've seen Generals do this in large briefings, and it doesn't seem to bother the junior, so I don't have a problem with it.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 12:31 PM

2015-05-10T12:31:12-04:00

i belive that he is, but i dont think he has enough respect to any of the military to understand what we may sacrifice or put the years in to get our rank.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 6:00 PM

2015-05-10T18:00:59-04:00

No. With the integration of the Warrant Officer Corps into the Officer Corps in general, we've been heavily exposed to unwritten traditions of the service among officers. One of those is that the senior officer uses first names (absent any objection) towards junior officers.

President Obama is, at the moment, the Commander in Chief. The most senior commander the military has.

There should not be an issue here.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 8:08 PM

2015-05-10T20:08:26-04:00

I can also see where you are coming from as a Sailor. In my short time working in a Joint environment, the Navy was the most strict when it comes to customs and courtesies and its rank structure. I can see how this may be important in the close quarters of a ship; having divided quarters, divided mess halls, ect. but I think it segregates the team effort! Of course I am an outsider looking in, but I respect your opinion and see where you are coming from.

Again, I don't think there was any disrespect here by the POTUS.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 10 at 2015 9:00 PM

2015-05-10T21:00:01-04:00

Using their ranks marks them as subordinates. His use of their names marks them as peers, to be respected, well thought of. It was a sign of respect.

Response by SPC Todd Hanson made May 10 at 2015 9:19 PM

2015-05-10T21:19:27-04:00

I don't see it as a sign of disrespect as I get called by my 1st name (in emails and phone calls) all the time by senior officers.

Response by Sgt Cody Dumont made May 10 at 2015 9:27 PM

2015-05-10T21:27:29-04:00

I always heard officers calling subordinate officers by there first name. Never understood why so I asked my LT once. He said it was a gentlemanly protocol. I shrugged my shoulders and said ok.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 11:49 PM

2015-05-10T23:49:16-04:00

Should I be upset when my superior officers call me James or Jim? Or should I take that as a sign that they're okay with being familiar with me? This is yet another case of people looking for something to be upset about. I could not possibly care less whether or not the President uses his subordinate's first or last name when speaking to or about them.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 11:50 PM

2015-05-10T23:50:20-04:00

This is much ado about nothing.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 12:50 AM

2015-05-11T00:50:59-04:00

Officers use first names, I have seen it in many settings when publically lauding an individual.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 1:29 AM

2015-05-11T01:29:28-04:00

I would be shocked if this shocked anyone. Who hasn't heard a superior or DOD employee call a servicemember by their first name?

Response by Cadet SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 3:05 AM

2015-05-11T03:05:58-04:00

The protocols you describe apply to the military, they do not apply to any civilian, especially the president.

Response by SSgt Chris Lambert made May 11 at 2015 9:22 AM

2015-05-11T09:22:59-04:00

He is a civilian and as such afforded the due respect by using their rank and last name at least once.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made May 11 at 2015 5:32 PM

2015-05-11T17:32:45-04:00

When I was a brand new private driving the Bn CO, he would always call me Ronnie and asked for me by name. In those days his driver was pulled as a detail from the BCT companies. I asked the BN SGM, before CSMs were invented, about the first name and
he told me that the senior can be familiar with the junior, but not vice versa. I knew he would know, as he was the SGM and also a COL, USAR, (got riffed after the war) and
stayed in as EM and retired a COL. So one day I got brave and asked LTC Carpenter why he always asked for me. He said that I was a good driver and I knew the vehicle. One day I got stuck and knew to get out and lock the hubs on the Intl Scout to go to 4 wheel drive. Also, other drivers he had had were so bad, he gave them his swagger stick and drove them around. So missed a lot of training, we went thru BCT in 5 1/2 weeks, but enjoyed the driving.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 10:37 PM

2015-05-11T22:37:05-04:00

A. He's a civilian. Military courtesy would be appreciated but is not obligatory.
B. He's the Commander-in-Cheif. Being senior in the chain of command he can choose the level of famiarity. Moreover he's the top of the chain, if he wants to declare we should all address each other by first name he can.
C. As others have pointed out, the customary forms of address vary between communities even within the military. Having been Navy first, I am myself more comfortable with the formality that the poster detailed; but within the wardroom they seem to use first names all the time and now that I'm Air Guard I'm working on getting used to everyone using first names, including between enlisted and officers...

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-05-11T23:26:06-04:00

I've noticed when the boss has built a rapport with you, he/she will and can call you by your first name. It took some getting used to when I crossed over from enlisted side.

Response by CSM Patrick K. Akuna Jr. made May 16 at 2015 11:15 AM

2015-05-16T11:15:41-04:00

When you work in the Strategic Realm of Military, General Officer Level, the use of First Name 's are common, particularly from a Senior to a Junior. This is normally used as a sign of respect.

I am a Division CSM, and when my Senior CSMs call me by my first name, it lets me know that they truly know me as a person as well as a subordinate Command Sergeant Major.

Now of course in a formal setting, such as a conference, where there are officers and enlisted of all ranks, Rank and last name is used.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made May 21 at 2016 5:48 PM

2016-05-21T17:48:23-04:00

No way. It's more the other way around, the President is showing respect for these men by showing he actually knows their names, not just their rank. When I was at HQ USCENTCOM I had the dubious task of waking the CJCS (Admiral Crowe) in the middle of the night many times and was amazed one night when he called me by my first name. He had obviously gone to the trouble to find out who this LTC from CENTCOM who kept waking him up was