What are the APFT standards for Transgender Soldiers? What should they be?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:47:09 -0400

Ok the big question of the day considering the recent changes to LGBT in the DOD. There are two separate standards for the physical fitness test based on years of study that determined females are physiologically weaker than males. Personally I think that's bull but that's a different discussion.
So here's the question. If a Soldier decides to change their gender does that change their fitness test standard also? Physiologically they are still a male or female other than genitalia which does not change their physical ability. If a male were to decide to become female it would actually benefit him/her because he normally does 40 push-ups just to pass and that is max for a female. Now to go the other way female to male would hurt them because the normal 16 push-ups to pass just wouldn't cut it.

Response by SFC Stephen King made Jul 13 at 2015 9:54 PM

SFC Stephen King — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:54:28 -0400

Great question a see a revised regulation and specific guidelines in our future.

Response by SGT Timothy Rocheleau made Jul 13 at 2015 10:01 PM

SGT Timothy Rocheleau — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 22:01:35 -0400

Really? This is a concern for what reason? If a man becomes a woman he is therefore a woman correct? If a woman becomes a man she is therefore now a man correct? So what ever gender they are at the time do their APFT should be the standards that they have to meet. Quit making shit harder than it has to be! Are you afraid that the feminine hygiene who you used to squash in PT is now going to ours core you because he became a woman?

Response by SPC George Grimm made Jul 13 at 2015 10:15 PM

SPC George Grimm — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 22:15:27 -0400

In my honest opinion, I would just make a universal standard that would accommodate this issue. Men women and lgbt all having the same standards.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Jul 13 at 2015 10:21 PM

COL Jon Thompson — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 22:21:50 -0400

I wonder the same thing.

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made Jul 13 at 2015 10:32 PM

SSgt Charles Edwards — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 22:32:00 -0400

Ehhh....

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Jul 13 at 2015 10:42 PM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 22:42:53 -0400

The thing is a person's body composition will change if they are taking testosterone or estrogen, so depending on how far along they are in that process the would need to change standards.

Response by SFC Wesley Arnold, Jr made Jul 14 at 2015 12:24 AM

SFC Wesley Arnold, Jr — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 00:24:30 -0400

Here's a two question for you; If you base everything on the physical appearance, how do you apply everything that differs between gender regulations?

I'm sure that when this becomes final you (as chain of command) can not ask how far they are in any transformation.

As for the hormonal therapy; Does it effect physical abilities or effecting only ones sexuality?

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jul 14 at 2015 12:36 AM

COL Charles Williams — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 00:36:28 -0400

SFC Private RallyPoint Member Interesting, because there is one openly transgender Soldier in an Infantry unit at Fort Lewis... and I am wondering how the Army will deal with that on many levels. She has a CIB and BSM as an Infantryman... I am curious too, how this will play out.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2015 3:28 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 03:28:15 -0400

Get rid of male and female standards. Make one Army standard, Marine, Navy, Air Force standard that everyone must abide by. Problem solved!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2015 4:06 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 04:06:36 -0400

This is a bit of a conundrum. The higher ups are changing policy before they have regulation in place to address for the issues that become of the policy change. There hasn't been a study or a method in regard to address this. This is putting soldiers in to a gray area where their unit may be uncertain how to handle this. I am sure that they Army wants to try to do a unified standard for males and females. I am not opposed to this as long as MOS are able to perform an MOS specific test in addition to the APFT. I do think if you do make a genderless standards it will hurt females. Just as the Marines tried to make all Marines perform 3 pull ups. After finding that the majority of the females couldn't they delayed twice. If they didn't they would be damaging the careers a large portion of the female marines. Someone needs to decide how this is going to work. What I question in the addition to this is how will their new gender identity play into gender specific MOSs. If you identify as a male can you go into the Infantry and if you identify as a female can you stay in the infantry. We will hopefully get some answers for this.

Response by SFC Jeffrey Couch made Jul 14 at 2015 6:00 AM

SFC Jeffrey Couch — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:00:43 -0400

In response to question should the army change the standards because of the the LGBT policy I think now that they are letting females into combat units/positions then if their going to do the same job as me I would want them as the same standard as me scenario if we're in a fire fight is she going to be able to pull my gimp behind out of the line of fire if I'm hit without endangering herself or others

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jul 14 at 2015 7:42 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:42:15 -0400

Personal Opinion follows:

1) Get rid of PROMOTION tying to a HEALTH Standard. It's Asinine. It creates more problems than it's worth.

2) Conduct a Physical Fitness Test, with as many individual parts as needed to determine HEALTH. If HEALTHY, regardless of Gender, move on. It is impossible to have a Universal HEALTH (APTF) with 2 genders. We're built differently. It will either be too tough for one, or too easy for the other. Hence removing promotion from the equation.

3) Develop an OBJECTIVE (Vice Subjective) "Combat Fitness Test" where everyone does the exact same thing. Don't make it body weight dependent. As an example, everyone get's up at 8am grabs a X lb pack, does a 12 mile ruck march, loads Z ammo cans on a flat bed, maneuvers through an obstacle course, etc. They have Q time. It's a day long endurance event. Pass/Fail. You either make it in time or you don't.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2015 8:56 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 08:56:46 -0400

Excuse me if I'm incorrect on this, but isn't transgender simply what gender they identify with? So a man identifies as a woman, or vice versa. So in terms of the APFT standards, they should continue to be graded according to their genetic identity.

If the question is in relation to a Soldier who has or is undergoing the transformation from one sex to the other, let them decide during that process. I very highly doubt that a male is going to undergo the operations required to biologically become a female just to gain a few points in the APFT. And if they do, congratulations to them. That's one hell of a commitment! On the other side, if a woman becomes a man, they should be allowed to choose which criteria to be graded on. If they're putting in the effort to earn a passing score as a man, more power to them.

I'm sure this is something that's already being looked at above our levels. The top officials are notorious for releasing guidance without thinking everything through, but this isn't something new to them. They've heard the arguments on this for some time now.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2015 12:00 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jul 2015 12:00:39 -0400

If they are taking meds to enhance their new gender (estrogen for the transitioners to female, and testosterone for the transitioners going to male), then their physical capabilities will more than likely be affected. That being said, grade them under what ever standard that the law and the Army recognizes them as.

Response by SPC Vicky King made Jul 15 at 2015 12:19 PM

SPC Vicky King — Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:19:53 -0400

There can never be rectification of this political experiment. It's a Charlie Foxtrot. You cannot make a male a female or vice versa. If you try to be God, you'll gum up SOP of all systems and devastate cohesiveness. The ability of the military to function as established since it's conception will be compromised to the fullest unknown degree. And that's just in the first week. We will be forced as a nation to accommodate the transformation of a now defunct military with a new title.

Response by SSG Rob Schwandt made Sep 30 at 2015 10:06 AM

SSG Rob Schwandt — Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:06:30 -0400

what about weight standards or tape test? You cannot argue with the Soldier, I would let this go to the top, let them resolve the isssue they are the ones who implemented this policy. If a Soldier say they are one way and you reject it, than this could become an EO complaint.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2015 3:16 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Oct 2015 15:16:38 -0400

I would say out side of a change in the APFT to a single standard, you would base this off of what ever gender is listed in their official records. If they want to change what standards they fall under then they need to have their official records change to reflect their gender.

Response by TSgt Jennifer Disch made May 11 at 2016 2:15 PM

TSgt Jennifer Disch — Wed, 11 May 2016 14:15:15 -0400

Good question. How about taping the waist and neck?

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 12:03 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 12:03:50 -0400

just get rid of all standards. We selectively apply them anyway.

Response by SFC Alfredo Garcia made May 23 at 2016 1:51 PM

SFC Alfredo Garcia — Mon, 23 May 2016 13:51:54 -0400

Reminds me of that State Farm commercial: "She sounds hideous!", "Well, she's a he, so..."

"Wow, she maxed the push ups so easily!", "Well, she's a he, so..."

Response by 1SG David Lopez made May 24 at 2016 10:06 PM

1SG David Lopez — Tue, 24 May 2016 22:06:31 -0400

So are we also saying that those lesbians that think they are a Dude, we should change the standards for them. Make them adhere to male standards since they act, look, and generally want to be a Male.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Dec 16 at 2016 6:34 PM

SSG Mark Franzen — Fri, 16 Dec 2016 18:34:48 -0500

I think that if they are going to be Enlisting in the Miltary it should be one standard and they should not have double standards it something that if they cant make the Grade then send them home it would be unfit for someone that can't pass a PT test and that also should be look at his weight standards.
SSG MARK FRANZEN
USA VET

Response by CW3 Sandra Aultman made Feb 21 at 2018 5:31 PM

CW3 Sandra Aultman — Wed, 21 Feb 2018 17:31:49 -0500

So if he becomes a she - should he also have to pass the weight standards for a woman?

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jan 23 at 2021 10:05 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 22:05:20 -0500

Biology determines.