What are your thoughts on this Soldier's objection to promotion board requirements?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 12:32:29 -0500

A Soldier has been to the "company level" promotion board three times. His (we'll assume it's a "he") leadership feels he is ready for the next step... Yet when the Soldier goes to the board he refuses to "sing a song" (the Army Song) and say a "creed that nobody lives by". He will never get past the company level to the actual promotion board because of this. He feels that singing a song and reciting a creed shouldn't make a good leader. He believes he can recall the regs, research, battle drills, etc..

What are your thoughts on this?

**UPDATE**

Since I originally posted this, the Soldier has PCS'd, gained new leadership, attended the promotion board, and has been promoted to Sergeant. When the Soldier was where I am, he was not my Soldier, he was in a completely different unit, but I did what I could to help mentor him. His new leadership has "opened his eyes" and he has grown and come along way! I am proud of him and he still reaches out to me for guidance.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 12:36 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 12:36:15 -0500

That could qualify as insubordination for refusing to obey a lawful order

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 1:51 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 13:51:24 -0500

I don't understand that soldiers point just sing the song and recite the creeds it's so very simple

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 1:56 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 13:56:55 -0500

If the Solider wants to stand on his views, albeit a little off, then he can not get promoted. The Army song wasn't in the board when I was enlisted but the NCO creed is part of every board. From my view I was say this Solider is too immature and not ready to join the NCO Corps.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 1:59 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 13:59:48 -0500

Anyone can study for a board. What separates Soldiers from civilians is our dedication and sense of duty to uphold the standards in which our very foundation is built. As NCOs, we are required to enforce the standards. There is no place in the Army for political stances when it comes to standards. You are entitled to think what you will, but at the end of the day you are required to do your duty above everything else. If the Soldier doesn't understand this, then he isn't ready to advance. Although we may fight for democracy, that doesn't mean we are a democracy.

Response by SPC John Decker made Dec 1 at 2014 2:03 PM

SPC John Decker — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 14:03:04 -0500

What was the purpose of his being asked to sing a song or recite a creed? Is it something that everyone appearing before the board is asked to do? I have been out for some time now, and never made it to the point where appearing before the board was required.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 2:39 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 14:39:46 -0500

So he wont recite a creed he claims no one lives by. That tells me he also wont live by it or even make the effort. He needs to come up with a better excuse then that. Not that any excuse will likely get him out of reciting the NCO Creed for the promotion board. All he is doing is wasting his sponsor and the board members time.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 2:51 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 14:51:16 -0500

I think it's time for him to pack his crap. This isn't an option. Comply. If you can't do that over a song, how the hell am I supposed to trust you with complying with complicated orders? You think I believed that everything I was told to do was the right thing? Hell no. I did it because I trusted in the overall competence and system of those around me. Suck it up.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Dec 1 at 2014 3:16 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 15:16:14 -0500

I understand where this soldier is coming from. Army promotion boards are not set up to determine whether an individual is a good leader, it is a performance showing dedication to memorize and retain basic knowledge. In today's Army, very few NCOs live by the NCO creed, and singing a song doesn't have much of a purpose except showing pride in our service (and that some of us are awful singers).
What I don't agree with the most is how we are told to lie about our short-term and long-term goals in order to make them NCO oriented. You want to become an officer? Don't tell the promotion board that. You want to get out of the Army? Don't tell the promotion board. Etc. We are asking soldiers to compromise their integrity so our senior NCOs can hear the answers they want to hear. Poor form at its finest.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Dec 1 at 2014 3:20 PM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 15:20:01 -0500

Wouldn't this be as similar as performing retreat or drill and ceremony in front of the board? It is merely a test of ability to cope and deal with stress, know your profession and be proud of the uniform which you wear. The company is serving itself well by withholding advancement to the next level.

In a similar area I had an officer call me for help recently. He showed up to a professional broadening course in PCS transition failing to make weight and tape. My first question was how did your division allow you to OUT-process and leave not being within the standard? Secondly, how long have you known you had to report to school being able to pass height/weight? The fact the officer knew for 6 months infuriated me beyond belief. His actions and inability to be within the standard set a representation of unit in the eyes of the school house and those in his class, one which I do not want associated with my unit.

The same applies to this Soldier and their unit, I applaud the action taken.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 4:25 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 16:25:14 -0500

I have to say - I gotta give the soldier props for sticking to his guns. He's making a statement regarding what he sees and how he feels about what he sees his leadership doing IRT to the Army song and the creed. If your leadership is not living up to the creed - meh - why should you be required to vomit back the creed to a group of people (his company leadership) that don't follow the creed they want him to vomit back?

As for memorizing and singing the Army song - holy batshite! Talk about archaic! There are a whooooole lot of people that really don't need to sing - ever. They can't carry a tune in a bucket - I mean really, just listen to the drivel you hear when your stopped at a red light - I'd really hate to hear them in the shower in the morning, cuz they suck serious dog poop in the musically talented section. I don't know - personally, I think that requiring someone to sing a song is going a bit overboard - but hey, it's the army. As the Navy says: choose your rate, choose your fate.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Dec 1 at 2014 4:29 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 16:29:04 -0500

Don't know why the chain of command is wasting their time with this guy. He would not appear before three Promotion Boards in a unit I was commanding.

As someone else stated, a Promotion Board is not a place to make a political statement. It is to demonstrate the knowledge, aptitude and attitude to be a leader. By his refusal to sing the song and say the creed, he aptly demonstrated his aptitude and attitude - NO GO.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Dec 1 at 2014 4:33 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 16:33:09 -0500

Your scenario is seems like the SM is trying to buck the system. To me the Army Song should not have anything to do with promotion. At the same time it is a simple task that everyone in the Army should know anyways. If you are not willing to sing the Song as part of a promotions board (im guessing everyone has to go through this) then this soldier does not deserve to go any farther.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 5:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 17:41:25 -0500

Always up front that's my Moto whatever it takes I will always give 150% in anything I do. A lot of soldiers do not want to sing, cite the NCO Creed or the Soldier's Creed but We as leaders are there to motivate them and get them to where they need to be.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Dec 1 at 2014 6:05 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 18:05:59 -0500

His refusal to do what is asked of him, even if he thinks he knows better is going to be his downfall. If he was willing to sing a 'song'...the Army Song...and recite a creed...that some of us did and do try to live by...would have allowed him to reach a position where he might have been able change those requirements. Of course, by that time he would have seen the value in making other follow those requirements, but we will never know.

Response by SFC Peter Cyprian made Dec 1 at 2014 7:40 PM

SFC Peter Cyprian — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 19:40:25 -0500

Here's my take on this- I can take any kid with $.02 worth of intelligence and prepare them to win a board. I can teach them all the book knowledge that is out there. I can teach them how to present to a board. I can teach proper board procedure and etiquette. I cannot make them be a leader- that's something they have to want for their self. Just because I put stripes on a Soldier does not make them a "leader". When I sent Soldiers to the promotion board it was not just so they can get promoted and earn a little bit more money. I sent them because they ALREADY demonstrated the leadership potential. You are not required to send a Soldier to the board just because they have the appropriate TIG/TIS. That is one of the biggest problems I was seeing in my last 7 years in the Army- Soldiers being sent to a promotion board and not possessing the appropriate level of maturity and leadership potential. Next thing you know, that Soldier is promoted and still basically acts like a Specialist (or worse). The Soldier you described sounds like they do not believe in the NCO Creed- immediate red flag. They sound like a Soldier that has no Esprit de Corps, yet another red flag. When you look at the total picture, without having ever met this Soldier, I can tell you that the leadership potential is not there nor will it ever be there as long as these deficiencies are still present. When I recommended Soldiers for promotion it was due to the fact that they were already acting like the rank they aspired to. Now here's the where the responsibility is on you- document, document, document. You are not required to send a Soldier to a promotion board if they are not ready- but make sure your ducks are in a row.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Dec 1 at 2014 8:56 PM

SSG Tim Everett — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 20:56:52 -0500

SFC Private RallyPoint Member I guess my first question to you is, does this soldier even WANT to be promoted?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 9:10 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 21:10:12 -0500

Then, let him stick to his guns. He's been to the promotion board three times,so he knows the requirements for promotion. If he doesn't want to "sing" the "song", that's on him...and as long as he can deal with it, so what? His view may change with time, but in the meantime, you have a soldier that is true to himself. Maybe, just let him be.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Dec 1 at 2014 9:27 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 21:27:20 -0500

Im one of those old NCOS that valued ability, motivation technical and tactical capability more than false motivation, and the ability to carry a tune.

Did i want a SM in my unit to know the unit History?. YES
His chain of command? YES
His Job, that of his subordinates and the job or his direct supervisor? YES.

But I never did I/ Do i feel the need to memorize the Army song.... That is the job of the Army band... they learn to play instruments and sing songs (as well as fight).. That is there MOS.

The SM in my unit were hired to fight, drive vehicles, cook, repair weapons and mop & buff floors..lol
Singing was never in the required MOS task list.. so I could care less if it was done well or at all at a promotion board.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 9:34 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 21:34:36 -0500

It's much less about "singing a song" or "reciting a creed no one lives by." It's all about tradition, something the Army values less and less everyday. The soldier doesn't sound like NCO material plain and simple.

Response by SFC Cindy Paris made Dec 1 at 2014 10:02 PM

SFC Cindy Paris — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 22:02:41 -0500

We all had to attend promotion boards in order to get promoted. If the company level board requires something to go forward and the individual wants to be promoted, then sing that song and repeat the creed. Otherwise quit complaining about not getting promoted. The decision is up to you. It is probably a test to see if you will follow orders and support what your leaders require of you

Response by SPC John Gregorio made Dec 1 at 2014 10:27 PM

SPC John Gregorio — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 22:27:56 -0500

Studying for a board and achieving promotable status is a tough task. I was fortunate enough to accomplish this on the first go. I was told to read the second paragraph of the creed of the Non-Commissioned Officer. I stumbled, and was told to read the final, and finished flawlessly. I studied for everything even if it didn't seem practical because I prepared myself for the questions that one of my soldiers would ask me. My biggest fear was not having an answer to a soldiers question or being a guide to them. I was fortunate to receive great leadership upon entry into the U.S. Army and my goal was great leadership.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 10:37 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 22:37:19 -0500

Sounds like he wants to one-up his leaders. I haven't met a senior NCO yet who enjoys or encourages this, much less rewards it.
Until and unless this young man gets his head wrapped around the idea that he is required to meet these expectations in order to advance - and I would think three times would get the point across, but perhaps not - he will not advance.

This is a confrontation that he has chosen. Unless he really think his "principled stand" is somehow going to affect the board members positively, he should strongly consider an attitude adjustment.

Response by SPC Daniel Edwards made Dec 1 at 2014 10:52 PM

SPC Daniel Edwards — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 22:52:39 -0500

I am a firm believer that we are to live by every word in the creeds that we yell out. I never had anything virtuous to live by until I joined. I enjoy saying both the Soldier Creed and the NCO Creed because it reminds me why I am doing it and I have no problem exclaiming it. All soldiers should be required to recite the creeds because it is supposed to be the way they live by, not just a bunch of words that make them look cool. As for knowing things, the rest of the promotion board should be that they know their job requirements. It'll be kind of embarrassing, in my mind anyways, for the chain of command to promote a badass that was awesome in the board to SGT or SSG and he or she doesn't know how to do his or her job and then ends up being demoted (does that happen?) because of it. Promotion boards, in my opinion, should include knowing the chain of command, Army Song, General Orders, all applicable creeds, and job specific details. I'm a Food Inspector, why should I give a shit how Land Domain is required? Pardon my French.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 10:59 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 22:59:46 -0500

Sounds like the consensus from the RP peanut gallery is that this SM is not a good choice for promotion.

Response by Capt Chris McVeigh made Dec 1 at 2014 11:26 PM

Capt Chris McVeigh — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 23:26:18 -0500

Board requirements are board requirements, if want to get promoted you do them. In my opinion singing the Army Song is a silly requirement for a board (but I know you guys love that thing). I'm assuming the "creed" is some variation of the NCO Creed and if he won't recite that/holds that low of an opinion of it, then I really have no idea why anyone would try to make him an NCO.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 12:00 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 00:00:06 -0500

Although I can see the soldiers point of view, one which I share similar view points to in other aspects of life, at some point in time if you really want this to become a career you need to shut up and color inside the lines.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Dec 2 at 2014 12:14 AM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 00:14:16 -0500

I agree with everyone here regarding his refusal to site the Creed of the Non-Commissioned Officer and the Army song. I talk to my Soldiers often about 'playing the game' and 'picking your battles'. Choosing not to recite the NCO Creed and the Army song is probably not the best battle to pick since it is not a 'winnable' one. I don't understand young Soldiers today...

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 12:38 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 00:38:59 -0500

Has anyone talked to the soldier about his issues? " a creed nobody lives by" sounds like he has had some bad NCO experience. I have a hard time with singing anything. I don't even sing Happy Birthday. I have a hard time listening to my voice sing. I would suck it up and do my best if required for a board, though.

Has he had written counseling about his "company level board" performances? I am surprised he has been even looked at 3 times with these issues.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 12:46 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 00:46:07 -0500

I would never have recommended this "Soldier" to appear before multiple boards given his attitude. If the Soldiers leadership is responsible for not wanting to recite the Creed of the Noncommissioned Officer because they don't live by it, a Soldier ready to be a leader would recite the Creed and be the first to make a start at changing the way leaders perform in that unit. Be an example for what leaders are and not another problem for subordinates to despise. As for singing, I want provide my country with the best leader I can be. If that means singing The Army Song to achieve the next rank so I can make a difference, that is how I will reach my personal goal. It's a small price to pay for my Soldiers to have proper leadership. I'm not saying my singing makes me a good leader. Following orders and learning from great leaders does. If this "Soldier" isn't willing to accomplish this small task, what kind of leadership can you expect from him if he does get promoted. His Soldiers will never respect him and they will never become effective leaders themselves. He needs outstanding leadership to correct his attitude. If it's not the leadership then he needs to be a civilian.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 1:31 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 01:31:05 -0500

I would say that the Soldier does not need to go to the board.....here is why:

1) One of the key characteristics of being a leader is the ability to follow. The promotion boards have been the same for as long as I have been in the service (18+ years), they may not be the best way to do things, but they have served us well so far. If that Soldier is unable to follow the simple criteria of today's board, then they don't need to be a leader.

2) If they say that it's a creed "that nobody lives by" then I would think it goes to show that they don't either. A true leader what want to serve that creed and protect its meaning by following it. If there are others who don't, so be it, but a true leader would follow.

Hopefully you are maintaining your resolve and keeping him at the company level while this Soldier fully understands what it means to be part of the team.

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made Dec 2 at 2014 3:52 AM

PO1 Rick Serviss — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 03:52:49 -0500

Why does that stop him from going to the promotion board? What does singing suppose to show? At least when the Navy had initiations, it was AFTER they were being promoted.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Dec 2 at 2014 6:03 AM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 06:03:53 -0500

He's a weenie! This is Cub Scout 101 stuff. Refusing to sing your branch song and recite the NCO creed, REALLY? The board is as much a test of character as it is knowledge and military bearing.

Response by 1SG Don Stand made Dec 2 at 2014 7:50 AM

1SG Don Stand — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 07:50:43 -0500

Well I haven't seen any officers go to a promotion board but I've read numerous comments.

Do you think officer should attend a promotion board until they have reached LTC? Something to ponder on right?

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Dec 2 at 2014 8:06 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 08:06:35 -0500

My first reaction is, why does this Soldier believe he is too good to sing the Army song, or recite the NCO Creed? I ask this because this makes me wonder what OTHER things he believes he shouldn't be required to do, and that would concern me as well. Let's say he gets promoted and is in charge of more subordinates. Then you are in a training/deployed situation and you give him orders to execute, and he hesitates and thinks "Why should I do that? That's dumb."

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Dec 2 at 2014 12:19 PM

LTC Stephen C. — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 12:19:53 -0500

SFC Private RallyPoint Member : Lame behavior. At Camp Mackall in 1970, the instructors from SFTG made us come to attention and sing "The Ballad of the Green Berets" every morning that we were in a classroom setting. Interestingly enough, I don't remember any objections!

Response by SSG Brian Fernandez made Dec 2 at 2014 12:26 PM

SSG Brian Fernandez — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 12:26:50 -0500

Tell him to write down examples of how the board members don't follow the NCO creed. When he is asked to recite it, he can inform the board he chooses not to due to the following, then he cites the "bad"examples they demonstrated. See how that flies.

Singing a song: Make it sound worse than a cat dying and it might get cut off quickly.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 2:30 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 14:30:28 -0500

I say that he has every right to hold and express that opinion. His 1SG, presumably the president of this "company board", also has every right to decide that he wants the leaders in his formation to be able to recite and sing the songs and creeds. In so many words, the Soldier should not necessarily be punished, but he should also not be surprised if he does not advance or draws a poor reputation with his leadership. The creeds/songs serve as a reaffirmation of shared values, and their memorization is a reasonable expectation for a potential leader of good character.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 3:00 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 15:00:28 -0500

Guess he wants to be an individual. That's cool. We need lots of Specialists, especially experienced ones.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 3:57 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 15:57:40 -0500

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, just in case this horse hasn't been beaten enough, I feel the need to comment as well. Several of you have commented on the fact that rote memory does not a leader make, and I agree. Memorizing facts, figures, creeds and songs will no sooner make you a competent leader than eating mud. From my perspective, this situation is made up of several troubling aspects:

1. A Soldier who feels the need to make a rebellious statement. This is a problem I see more and more in the Army. Whether he wants to be promoted or not, he simply refuses to accomplish a simple task asked of him. Additionally, his justification is superficial. His opinion that the NCO Creed is “a creed no one lives by” should be motivation to be the agent of change. If he would take the time to learn it, he would realize the NCO Creed contains numerous leadership qualities which he should aspire to personify. The requirement to “sing a song” is about esprit de corps and having pride in the Army. It has nothing to do with one’s ability to carry a tune or to entertain. The purpose is no more grandiose than showing you give a crap about the organization you belong to. I’d be willing to bet he doesn’t have a problem supporting his favorite sports team whether they win or lose.

2. Leadership failure. I’m concerned with the NCO who continues to send him to the board. This Soldier’s attitude doesn’t seem to be a secret. As a former NCO, I say the following with the utmost sincerity. PROTECT YOUR CORPS! Do you really want someone admitted to your Corps who refuses to comply with simple, unobtrusive directions? Someone who refers to your NCO Creed as “a creed no one follows?”

3. Broken SGT and SSG promotion system. When I was growing up in the Army, my leadership and I were required to justify why I should be promoted. Nowadays, leadership is required to justify why a Soldier should NOT be promoted. Not every Soldier is destined to be a leader. Some just don’t want to and some just plain don’t need to.

Thoughts?

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Dec 2 at 2014 4:10 PM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 16:10:51 -0500

I can understand not singing the song and not wanting to, but the NCO creed is what makes the NCO corps great. Many of the NCOs try to live by it, and while they may not always meet all the requirements, I know that the good ones are trying their best. If this soldier refuses to recite the creed, then it is likely he will not live by it either and is therefore not ready.

Also, three boards? If he pulled that crap in one board with me he would not get another chance unless he really proved he was wrong.

Response by SPC Jack Hunt, JR made Dec 2 at 2014 4:40 PM

SPC Jack Hunt, JR — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 16:40:37 -0500

I think by singing the song. Or reciting what ever that in some way a person can show their level of "emotional" patriotism. I have strong feelings for this nation. For instance nothing makes me madder than for someone not following tradition durring the playing of the national anthem. Makes me wanna choke a baby! But really it's part or the board why go when you aren't going to comply with a request. I say the individual is trying to make a "statement".

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 8:59 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 20:59:36 -0500

Singing the Army Song may not make you a good leader. But refusing to sing it can be seen as not being proud of the organization and its traditions. Why promote someone who doesn't care enough about the organization's history to sing a simple song? Also, it's something he was instructed to do. Should someone who can't follow a simple instruction that is NOT an illegal order be raised to a position where they are enforcing/carrying out even more important ones?

As for the creed, yes, there are many who do not live up to all of its ideals. Does that mean we should throw it away and not even try? It really sounds like "he" wants it to be all about "him" and not about the needs of the Army and the Soldiers "he" professes to want to lead. It doesn't matter how good this Soldier is at memorizing regulations, researching, and conducting battle drills. If "he" doesn't understand the meaning of and the need for the creed, "his" Soldiers will not be properly led because "he" doesn't really care about them or the Army, only "himself."

A promotion would lead to the unfortunately too common situation where an E-5 is "a Sergeant, but not an NCO." You know the type - they want the power, prestige, control and pay but not the real responsibility of the position. To have people who have to do what they say, but not do their part of taking care of those same Soldiers so they can effectively carry out the mission.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 9:59 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 21:59:56 -0500

I would make the soldier write essays on what the songs and creeds mean to him. When I went to the promotion board I had to recite the NCO creed one line at a time and explain what each line meant to me. I learned why I believe in the creed and why I need to live it every day. The other aspect is why does this soldier think NCOs don't live up to the creed? Do you have lazy NCOs that don't care for soldiers? I have had soldiers that didn't have faith in NCOs but by my actions and leadership style I have been able to restore their faith in the Corps. Each of us have to do this every day to fix the problems that worthless NCOs create.

Response by SSG Leonard J W. made Dec 2 at 2014 10:59 PM

SSG Leonard J W. — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 22:59:08 -0500

Great question, SFC Private RallyPoint Member.

To add to SFC Private RallyPoint Member's great post:

The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer is not something that "nobody lives by." I know at least 50 NCOs in my unit that live this creed on a daily basis. Not to mention, to make that statement publicly insults every NCO that they have ever come into contact with. If they hope to be a good leader, then they will be required to believe in and to live by this Creed. They, therefore, should have no problem reciting it.

Additionally, the Army Song is sang upon conclusion of every ceremony conducted. We all know how often ceremonies occur. What kind of example would it set for their Soldiers if they refused? The Soldier could actually receive punitive actions for not participating in the singing of the Army Song. There are at least 3 punitive articles of the UCMJ that come to mind, such as Article 91, Article 92, and Article 134.

As SFC Fischer mentioned, "Although we may fight for democracy, that doesn't mean we are a democracy." I strongly suggest that they pull their act together and drop the ideology.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 1:04 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 01:04:14 -0500

While I am all for challenging the system, as a Red Teamer it is a natural trait. There is a time and a place for it, and this was not it. One should challenge the system to make it better, not to just make it better. Not singing the Army Song or reciting the NCO Creed is not the smartest of ways to challenge the system. If this soldier had wanted to properly challenge the system to make it better, they should have gone into the board the first time not the third and left no doubt in the basic knowledge portion and gotten themselves promoted. It is much easier and better to challenge the system from the inside, it is the only way that I have ever seen/head of meaningful change being made.

Response by PFC Aaron Knapp made Dec 3 at 2014 1:10 AM

PFC Aaron Knapp — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 01:10:01 -0500

Sing the damn song, say the creed and get promoted. Stupid reason to not pass your board.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 1:36 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 01:36:01 -0500

When one joins a profession, one agrees to shoulder the history, the professionalism, and the tenets associated with that profession. If one doesn't agree with those tenets, the. One should find another profession. That applies for all ranks, enlisted or commissioned.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 8:34 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 08:34:58 -0500

If you aren't willing to play by the rules, you'll be eliminated from the game. It's just that simple. If he can't do even these simple things, I have a hard time thinking he'll be able to enforce discipline on his subordinates later.

Response by SSG Gordon Hill made Dec 3 at 2014 8:43 AM

SSG Gordon Hill — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 08:43:41 -0500

When I went before the board back in 1991 it was the battalion board we had no company board and sat in front of six 1SG and one CSM and we did not have sing the army song or recall the creed. Knowing those two things does notmake you a good leader. I have also sat on company level boards with my reserve unit and the president of the board made the SM recall the creed, after the board I asked the president who was SFC and the detachment NCOIC, he stated it was the brigades requirements and that he was just following orders i then asked him was does have to do with leadership, and i was have this discussion in private. The SFC was in agreement but had no real answer. I said following orders is good but this one makes no sense and I believe the NCO Creed was written by an officer no wonder it is so damn long, there are some very good ideals to live by, but knowing the creed does make you a leader.

Response by SPC Matthew Farnsworth made Dec 3 at 2014 8:43 AM

SPC Matthew Farnsworth — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 08:43:44 -0500

While singing a song and reciting the NCO creed don't make a good leader; the ability to understand and follow orders are building blocks of good leadership. If the NCO's in your unit do not live by the NCO creed that is something you should strive to repair by living by the creed and showing the lower enlisted how to be a good leader.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 9:49 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 09:49:26 -0500

The Army has changed throughout the years. With that, anyone that wants to advance in their career also needs to change. Many things are for the better and some, well have been for the worse. My question would be, is why is this commander wasting man hours and resources on this soldier when he refuses to complete the minimum requirements? I do understand his reasoning as I was there at one time. I understand all responses with checking the box BUT, personally I will take a soldier that is technically proficient any day over a check the box soldier when getting deployed. I don't need a senior NCO filling a slot that is a warrior and knows little of anything about his MOS, I deployed with some and have to say they made great guard duty NCO's. It may just be that if he stays in long enough to PCS that his refusal to fulfill his requirements will change.
The Army definitely needs to bring back SQT's with major emphasis on MOS skills. I think commanders are forced to place too high of an emphasis on warrior training. You can train a soldier to be a warrior in weeks but MOS is a lifetime building block with each promotion.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 10:06 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:06:47 -0500

My thoughts on this are simple and honest and will probably offend many, but they are important to consider if you live by the creed of the non commissioned officer. I'm going to ignore the Army song part because that's not the concerning area, in my view.

Your soldier says no one lives by the NCO creed, doesnt that make all the hairs on the back of your neck stand up? Doesn't it make you mad that this soldier has seen one of your peers fail to live the standard? Doesnt it upset you that your soldier hasn't received the outstanding leadership he is ENTITLED to?

Point I'm trying to make is that everyone here is missing the point and acting like he doesn't want to become an NCO. This is a soldier that has seen time and time again what we all have seen: NCOs that suck (intentionally or otherwise) and needs good LEADERSHIP and direction.

So long story short, don't coddle him like others have been saying, but be a great example for this soldier and show him day to day that "someone (you) live the NCO Creed."

Response by PO2 Aubrey Mayberry made Dec 3 at 2014 10:12 AM

PO2 Aubrey Mayberry — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:12:20 -0500

While I never stood before one of these boards I would say he has shown his attitude. Following orders seems to be an issue with this guy

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 10:31 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:31:38 -0500

I understand the statement the Soldier is trying to make. However, that alone shows immaturity. My first team leader told me that if I didn't like how he did things to just wait until I was in the position to make those choices. (That's the PG version). So I did just that and as I've progressed I've had the opportunity to better the organization. I believe in the Creed and enforce it in others as well.
If this kid was ready he would want to live up to it and make the difference.
Just my thoughts.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 11:33 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 11:33:50 -0500

I guess it's not very important to him. Let's make it easy and not pressure them to go to the board. While everyone has their own opinion on the creeds and the songs, it's not your job to complain about it if you're trying to be an NCO. We enforce rules and regulations, while executing our duties IAW the Commander's Intent. If he can't even do that as a Specialist, that's not the kind of Spec5 you need running around.

Response by SSG Alleria Stanley made Dec 3 at 2014 11:44 AM

SSG Alleria Stanley — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 11:44:20 -0500

I'll come at it from a different direction.

Soldier comes before the board and is asked to recite the creed (I'm presuming it's the NCO creed, but any will do).

Says that nobody lives by.

Roger.

So, Soldier, you're here before the promotion board because you want to be promoted to the next rank. Having appeared three times, you're showing your tenacity and desire.

Got it.

>>> As a LEADER, what would YOU do to increase the value of the creed? How would you make it more practiced in your unit, in your area of influence, and in your daily life? <<<

If you truly don't believe in the creed at all, then what values would you bring as a Leader of Soldiers?

Recitation of knowledge demonstrates the ability to research, learn, memorize, and regurgitate under pressure. Valuable, but not the be all-end all of leadership.

The values inculcated in the Creed (or for this Soldier, surely some yet unknown personal values) influence our interaction and relationships with our Soldiers - Seniors, Peers, and Subordinates alike.

Now, as for the Song... I get it. Can't sing, don't feel like being humiliated. One of the things about the promotion board is that it truly isn't about knowledge. Do you have the courage, for example, to respond, "I don't know, Sergeant" when asked something you obviously SHOULD know (having studied for the board), but do not? When the 1SG asks a question in the daily routine, can you speak up and say, "I don't know?" Takes courage.

It takes courage to stand in front of a formation, all of those eyes staring back at you, awaiting your command. Will you flub it? Can you give commands with confidence, even if personally nervous?

Singing the "Army Song" in the board is about neither memorization of the words nor an audition for Army Idol. It's about standing in front of others, staring back at you, and having the courage to start singing. Be willing to make a mistake, flub a note, sound horrible, but confidently proceed to the finish. THAT is someone a Soldier may follow...

My thoughts.

Response by CW4 Aaron Rasmussen made Dec 3 at 2014 12:54 PM

CW4 Aaron Rasmussen — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 12:54:49 -0500

If he can't do simple things because he's too stubborn, that opens the door to his refusal to do more important things that he might disagree with. I wouldn't send him on until he learns some humility.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 1:27 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 13:27:02 -0500

Creeds are good, if no one else lives by it from his viewpoint that is their problem, by refusing to say it he pretty much says that he is not willing to live by it himself. As for the song, it is a part of the ceremony and traditions that helps to separate the military from mercenaries and guns for hire, as well as solidify our relation to previous generations of Soldiers. If his chain of command don't feel comforfable pilutting him in charge of younger Soldiers that is their choice, he can stand by his belief but he can't choose the results of doing it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 2:38 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 14:38:20 -0500

Promotion Boards are a joke as it is. Anyone can study and remember answers to questions and sing a song or two and recite a creed or two. If you want to eliminate leaders in the army that can't lead a soldier in their specific MOS, make NCOES courses mandatory prior to promotion and have the individuals grade in said course account for whether they should be promoted as well as the board. You can be a true leader if you don't know your job even if you can recite regs as well as the other way around.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 3:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 15:10:54 -0500

Customs, Courtesies, and Traditions

The Army is an organization that instills pride in its members because of its history, mission, capabilities, and the respect it has earned in the service of the Nation. A reflection of that pride is visible in the customs, courtesies, and traditions the Army holds. Adherence to them connects us with soldiers throughout America's history. (FM 7-21.13, ch. 4)
If allowed to go through the board, how many of these customs and traditions will this Soldier try to erase from history? If at a civilian job, would you challenge such a tradition or shall I say a requirement? Once in an MOI, Soldier, it lists the requirements and things to know for that particular board. Leaders, testiment that promotion counselings are very important.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 3:29 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 15:29:11 -0500

I don't have a problem with it. First, I think it's obscenely stupid that someone would be forced to sing something to be eligible for a promotion. Secondly, if it's really true that nobody lives by that creed, the question comes to whether he plans to enforce the creed or attempt to change it to meet what everyone is already doing; his answer to that would determine whether or not I'd recommend him getting any further along in the process. I'd still make him recite the creed, at any rate.

The singing is objectively dumb.

Response by SSG Jason Cherry made Dec 3 at 2014 3:48 PM

SSG Jason Cherry — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 15:48:13 -0500

If you don't want to do what is required, then get out.

As SFC Private RallyPoint Member said, NCO's are supposed to uphold the standard. If you don't even want to meet the standard, then you shouldn't be promoted. Not only that, you should be vacated from service.

Response by CSM Harry Jeffries made Dec 3 at 2014 3:53 PM

CSM Harry Jeffries — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 15:53:37 -0500

First of all the soldier fails to understand the reason behind the singing of "The Army Song" and "Reciting the Creed of the Noncommissioned Officer". It is about remembering the history and taking pride in it. If he believes that no one follows that creed then he shouldn't be an NCO, let alone in the Army. I spent 32 years in the Army and for the last 15 sat on everything from local promotion boards, DA selections and Audie Murphy boards and it was all about testing the stress level the Soldier could withstand without cracking... Hell, I had Soldiers sing the Star Spangled Banner, Army Song, Dogface Soldier Song and recite the Soldiers Creed and the NCO Creed. The sole reason..... Testing stress levels... It doesn't matter what the Soldier thinks they should do, they do what they are told and if they can't, they can't follow then why should we let them lead?

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Dec 3 at 2014 5:54 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 17:54:39 -0500

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. -Anonymous (Spuriously attributed to Thomas Jefferson)

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Dec 3 at 2014 6:04 PM

SGT Mark Sullivan — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:04:49 -0500

That Creed is something any "Leader" should strive to live by, unfortunately few leaders are held to this creed, and they should be. I guess my time in service was different than how things are now. We looked to our NCO's to help us, lead us, and to follow their example. But because they are asking him to recite this, they want to know if he has the ability to learn what an NCO is supposed to live by.

Response by PV2 David Minnicks made Dec 3 at 2014 10:47 PM

PV2 David Minnicks — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 22:47:55 -0500

Should a SM's ethical, moral or political beliefs prevent them from meeting such basic criteria then they are not a candidate for promotion. I just question why an active SM decided to voluntarily serve if their beliefs are diametrically opposed to what is going to be asked from and of them?

Response by SGT(P) Gloria Francis made Dec 4 at 2014 2:31 AM

SGT(P) Gloria Francis — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 02:31:10 -0500

The most important thing here is DOES THE SOLDIER BELIEVE & LIVE BY THE CREED. As long as he believes & lives by it then he can educate his subordinates. Stop putting a damper on his career because of his persona of other people. Tell him to lead as he wants to be led & follow as he wants to be followed. Set the example, smash the promotion board, & help others start believing & living by it.

Response by SFC Lloydwatkins Kahaloa made Dec 4 at 2014 2:41 AM

SFC Lloydwatkins Kahaloa — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 02:41:04 -0500

WOW, three times same issue. I'm what they call a Dinosuore and aging relect. I Got it, he/she wants to bring the board to his level. I got it that he doesn't feel that neither the song or reciting the soldiers/ NCO creed won't make him a better Person and in all honesty, it won't so I agree But,
being who I am i'm sure the members of the board were pretty upset. And they should however, not so much at the soldier but at themself. Somewhere fown the line someone didn't do their job as senior NCO. Did anyone, Take the time to explain to this young soldier, that simple things like, Lead from the front. That if he can't follow instructions or orders how is he to expect his soldiers to follow his. The chain of command like the ripple after a stone is tossed has a action and reaction.
Three Times withe the same results... Thats amazing. History serves and a learning experience of the past in todays events for the future. If you didn't get that one ask your CSM for assistance.
We are so quick to judge but we fail at simplest things. Stop the Ripples and calm the water.
Install the pride of your past, bring clarity into todays leaders os that the straight of their future will continue.. Hhooorraaahh! MANCHU_"KEEP UP THE FIRE w/ a "CAN DO" Attitude.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 8:13 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:13:34 -0500

Many good responses already, and here's my two cents. As was alluded to in another post, the board is really a validation of the assessed leadership and potential of a soldier (E5 board) or Sergeant (E6 board). If this Soldier wants respect for feeling so strongly about his beliefs in terms of creed and song, then he should respect the Army's commitment to history, esprit de corps and discipline as simply not ask to be sent to the board. He doesn't want to serve the unit and the organization; he is selfish, not selfless.

I was often amazed at those junior in rank who had such strong feelings, but such myopic vision. A simple question is would he tolerate those he leads to have such opinionated disdain for his orders? Or does he expect them to follow his orders without debate?

I would hope he is counseled and then I hope the company leadership not spend any more time with him. Explain why the creed is important. Explain the purpose of pride he should feel when he sings the Army song. Explain to him why there are times we must follow orders -- our leaders are good and competent on the whole, and those instances where there are moral/ethical/legal dilemmas with orders are few and far between.

He, and others who routinely question the system, have that right -- to an extent. But as Soldiers, they should trust the system as it has produced our very best.

Response by SFC Mark Hoover made Dec 4 at 2014 8:32 AM

SFC Mark Hoover — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 08:32:38 -0500

Requirement are there for a reason.
If he does not want to do the right thing, maybe he is not ready or mature as people think. Stop sending him up until he is ready.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Dec 4 at 2014 10:19 AM

SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 10:19:21 -0500

SFC Private RallyPoint Member Promotion boards are a right of passage and covered based on AR 600-8-19 and MILPER Message 12-242. The content of the board varies but the one constant is the singing of the Army song and reciting the NCO Creed. While this NCO may "feel" the NCO Creed is not lived by, he should recite it to show his individual devotion to the Creed and the NCO Corps. Further, as a leader he must understand he does not get to pick and choose which orders to take and execute and which ones he may ignore.

The singing of the Army song is motivational. How many civilian organizations have a song? Pride is a key element of an NCO. Professionalism is another. I submit this Soldier is not as ready as his unit believes if he will not submit to the basic requirements of a time honored tradition and regulatory requirement, the promotion board.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 11:44 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 11:44:12 -0500

In some ways, the Soldier is missing the bigger picture and has a mis-focused objection. Reciting creeds and singing songs are something that happens at some (but not all) boards. Who sets that 'requirement'? No regulation, no field manual. Going to boards isn't even a total force requirement, as TPU and M-Day reserve component Soldiers are routinely promoted solely on the stregth of paper and digital packets. Complaining about having to recite a creed and sing a song addresses not the capricious and arbitrary nature of this tradition, but simply two capricious and arbitrary elements to which the Soldier specifically objects.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 1:17 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 13:17:39 -0500

I feel he needs to be barred from re-enlistment. Since he will obviously not progress any further. Besides his beliefs should be independent of the Army's policies and procedures. Since he feels no one lives by the creed, maybe he should be intelligent enough to understand that as an NCO he has the ability to set the example and hold subordinates accountable. He doesn't need to promote and there is no place for sh..b.. trend-setters in the Army. He needs the boot so he can go work for the perfect company that does everything right in his book. Sounds like the unit needs some leadership that can better guide him down the path he really needs versus to continue to even remotely support oppositionally defiant behavior.

Response by CPT Timothy Crooks made Dec 4 at 2014 1:22 PM

CPT Timothy Crooks — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 13:22:26 -0500

The Army Leadership is built upon customs. The Creed and Song are part of our identy. Reciting them, that is, proudly reciting them shows a sense of ownership of that identity, carrying it on for generations to come. We all stand (and hopefully sing) the National Anthem of the greatest country in the world on or off duty. This takes it a step further because as

Response by SPC David S. made Dec 4 at 2014 2:19 PM

SPC David S. — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 14:19:18 -0500

They don't want to get promoted.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 2:28 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 14:28:54 -0500

Semantics aside, there are standards to everything in the military. We have a certain amount of square holes that require square pegs. The more and more someone chooses to 'attempt' to use a circular peg, the less and less they are trying to be a part of the standard and more of an individual. As a leader, we have to meet that standard, and then be better than it.

And, an NCO does not pick and choose what objects or tasks they deem necessary.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 4:06 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 16:06:47 -0500

I was told by my SGM that the promotion board is about potential. I myself had a problem where my NCO didn't think I was ready for the board. But my SGM felt otherwise and low and behold I now have my (P). I understand being able to learn the ARMY SONG and the warriors ethos and creeds are important. However, I don't think being able to recite these and regulations word for word make you a good leader. I have seen some leaders who can recite regs and creeds without hesitation, but the are not very good leaders at all. I would rather have an NCO that knows what the creeds stand for and lives by it, then an NCO that can just recite creeds and regs word for word.

Response by SGT Justin Lamb made Dec 4 at 2014 6:12 PM

SGT Justin Lamb — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 18:12:58 -0500

SSG,

"A creed nobody lives by" is a sad point of view for one.. but if a question is asked in a board there is a reason. You may not like the army song but its not going anywhere and its tradition. Wonder how this young leader to be will act when someone under him refuses to do something?

Response by PO1 Michael Fullmer made Dec 4 at 2014 7:46 PM

PO1 Michael Fullmer — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 19:46:57 -0500

While there is a significant truth in what SFC Michael Fischer says, and I will be the first to agree that tradition plays a major role in our military...even today. The removal of tradition from core values regardless of service branch...in today's kinder, gentler military...has allowed the degradation of our present military and political "hacks" to become head's of various offices within the DoD (including many members of the officer corps all services included) and government who are more interested in THEIR career than the welfare of their troops or doing the right thing.

I hope this makes a measure of sense.

Response by SGM Jeff Bullard made Dec 4 at 2014 7:52 PM

SGM Jeff Bullard — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 19:52:13 -0500

Well I feel that it makes it pretty easy to see who will be bypassed by his fellow Soldiers. If you not only memorize the NCO Creed and actually understand that it's a standing order and standard on what NCOs are supposed to try their best to live up to and what they strive for everyday of their lives. It's also a promise that they give their Soldiers the leadership that they deserve. Recalling regulations, research, and Battle Drills are a great start to your leadership knowledge but you have to be able to apply that knowledge into practical means, which is actually doing the work and training your team, squad, platoon & company. If you're not willing to sing the Army Song and learn and understand the NCO Creed which falls into your Pride in yourself, your Soldiers, your Unit, The Army and your Nation, then I feel that this Soldier will never be able to be counted on when times get tough, hours get late and stress builds and he can't hack it when his Soldiers, Squad, Platoon and Company need him most. Becoming an NCO doesn't get easier with rank it requires more dedication, time and effort toward the Soldiers that rely on you and your decision making abilities everyday. If he feels that no one lives up to the NCO Creed then he needs to take a look at himself, is he the person that makes that correction, works past 1700 to ensure his Soldiers are properly trained or is he part of the status quo. Make a difference be that NCO that everyone respects and ask those questions that no one else knows and be tactically and technically proficient.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 8:15 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 20:15:40 -0500

SSG McLamb...having served as President of such boards, I have many issues with how they are conducted. There is no solid Army standard. It's not supposed to be a Master of Military Trivia contest. Although I must admit I was motivated enough as a young trooper to play the game. And the standard at the time was regurgitating trivia. In early Regimental days prior to WWI and during WWII, enlisted boards were important and included a lot of unit traditions that soldiers had to know. In those days, the stripes stayed with the Regiment too--it went with the Billet or job, not with the soldier. Soldiers tended to be non-college, non-high school grads and had to rely on rote memory to do soldierly things. Of course, when bullets started flying, the concepts of boards went out the window. When the bullets stopped we re turned to the 1900s and never completely left.
As I progressed through the ranks I found many unit (and commerical) study guides contained questions that were pure fantasy...and published it in Stars and Stripes and the Army News Service. Can provide examples.
Some boards do inject more tradition. And there is nothing wrong with demonstrating knowledge about the unit's history, the Army's history, the installation's history--if you want to be an NCO. However in one board, soldiers were required to show up in full combat gear with camo and weapons. Another required soldiers to do pushups in their Class As... Then there was the Stump-the-Chump contest where the keepers of the flame (board members) took perverse pleasure in making soldiers sing songs, recite poetry...some HQ boards were just a bunch of questions from the study guide. When I finally got to call the shots, that crap was out the window. I prefer leadership and ethical "situations" that don't necessarily have a "right" or "wrong" answer, but that require a soldier to think, and allows the board to see how they think...and sometimes to learn something. Such situations should be based on real experiences of the board members. Or as another example, current events. My board for SSG asked me about sports scores! What's that got to do with being a soldier? We'd call it "situational awareness" today (that would be a stretch)...how about taking a headline, like the increasing issues of sexual harrassment, lack of ethical conduct, and turn the dog around...ask the soldier how he/she would handle it as an NCO....?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 4 at 2014 8:23 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 20:23:51 -0500

I agree with his position, but not his actions...

It's true that boards do nothing but allow the senior leadership evaluate who you just spent weeks pretending to be, but refusing to play the game is accomplishing nothing but holding him back.. It's entirely self defeating.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 9:43 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 21:43:28 -0500

Insulting the board members by saying no one lives by the NCO Creed, and by extension, none of THEM live by the NCO Creed, is a unique approach. I would honestly wonder at why he would deliberately sabotage himself.

Another question I have is how does this guy find himself in front of the board three times doing the same thing? I would think his FLL who supports his going to the board might just weigh in on the subject and ensure that his troop is in the proper mindset before wasting everyone's time a third time. If I'm the First Sergeant of this unit, that is my next stop.

Response by SPC Dannie Hottinger made Dec 4 at 2014 10:00 PM

SPC Dannie Hottinger — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 22:00:35 -0500

The difference between civilians and soldiers is the ability to follow lawful orders without question. If he or she isn't willing to do this, then they aren't ready to advance. The singing of singing the Army Song and saying the creed is to build "Esprit De Corps". THis seldom exists in the civilian workd except in the most successful comapnies. You may or may not like it but as a leader you need to be able to inspire your soldiers with it.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 11:42 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 23:42:03 -0500

Well I guess he will never get promoted then, "he" needs to sing the Song because it is part of our history and tradition and his job will be to get his soldiers to live by the Creed that I guess nobody in his unit lives by. If he does not believe in these things he does not deserve to be promoted. (Maybe I am just old school)

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 3:09 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 03:09:37 -0500

Too many have already said it better...that person is not ready. I'm not sure he would qualify as a good Soldier if he doesn't even possess the pride in the Army song. I sing the national anthem at the theater every time it plays. If you don't love your job, then go find another line of work. If you want to be an NCO, then Be, Know, Do what the creed stands for. 'Nuff said.

Response by SSG Robert Poorman made Dec 5 at 2014 3:45 AM

SSG Robert Poorman — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 03:45:15 -0500

Do they still have Up or Out? If so this guy will be gone soon anyway. The days of the professional PFC is over.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 6:08 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 06:08:44 -0500

He is immature and is not ready for being an NCO. Being a leader is bigger than yourself. You will be called to do actions that you may not agree with. Instead of complaining about the Army Song and/or the Creed he should be living by it and setting the example. Soldiers like that grow to be toxic leaders because they substitute their own values in place of the values of the Army. I am not saying he will be a toxic leader but how can you be a leader if you are the only one who understands your values.

As for not needing to know them to be a good leader. That is a bunch of malarkey. Just saying I know my job I should get promoted is not what a leader should do. It is much bigger than that one person. It is about the soldiers that follow them. The concept of a "Good Field Soldier" is something people try to justify their lack of bearing. You have to be well rounded and not just a good field soldier. Soldiers like that come and go. I would have counseled him when he stated no one lives by the creed in the army. He is disillusioned with what the Army stands for. That is dangerous for a soldiers and especially a leader.

Response by SSG Thomas Gallegos made Dec 5 at 2014 9:17 AM

SSG Thomas Gallegos — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:17:24 -0500

Although it will affect this Soldier and ultimately lead to his or her ETS I back this Soldier. If you read throughout this thread and I an attest to and agree that just because one is a "board baby" that does not make them a real leader.
Reading regulations does not make you a great leader or even a good leader for that matter. Its rather if you can implement those regulations properly and raise younger Soldiers to follow in your lead or to at least give them a basis which to work from.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 10:36 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 10:36:02 -0500

Excellent reasoning, SFC Fisher - at the end of the day, it's a soldiers duty to perform the assigned task to the best of his or her ability, regardless of of they may personally feel about it. What's more, it's a leader's job to motivate the soldiers to do it as well. Clearly he or she isn't ready for a higher position - probably not even they one they currently hold.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 11:25 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 11:25:05 -0500

In the military, we are asked to do many things we don't like or agree with. We do them anyways, and drive on. If he will protest at a promotion board, how will he react to an order he doesn't like that he doesn't agree with, but if he doesn't do it, it will put others at risk. I agree in one instance, singing a song and reciting things isn't the sole trait of a good
leader. Some people have gotten a long way just looking the part, but not being able to make a decision, but if he expects to be an example to other soldiers how does he expect them to act when he wont comply with a simple request? Do what's asked, when asked.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 12:23 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 12:23:13 -0500

That Soldier could face administrative separation from his chain of command. The military is not a medium tone used by service members to promote a political or social agenda. Ultimately, his actions are "detrimental to the good order and discipline" of the organization.

Response by SGT Erik Prano made Dec 5 at 2014 8:43 PM

SGT Erik Prano — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 20:43:40 -0500

The Army Song, and a "creed no one lives by" sounds like excuses to be non-patriotic, and Anti-establishment. I say, let him ETS .... As Even leadership requires conformity to traditions, honor, pomp, and circumstance. Tell that troop to "man up" or get left in the rear with the gear.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Dec 6 at 2014 12:53 AM

SFC Mark Merino — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 00:53:14 -0500

I had a soldier who was Native American and we were all Cavalry. When they asked him questions about the unit he did a phenomenal job explaining the history as it pertained to his family. One of the 1SG's had tears in his eyes. He was all Army and all Cavalry. Someone who wants to be pissy like clown would be best served finding life elsewhere.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2014 1:50 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 13:50:30 -0500

I have a question for all the Senior NCO'S and the officers: Does knowing the infantryman ' creed or any other creed make you any better at your job or a better soldier? Does it help you when you have to clear a house, recover a vehicle, operate a weapon system that you aren't assigned or perform care on a battlefield injury? I know that this isn't about the infantryman ' creed but I'd say it's along the same lines. When I re classed from Aviation to Infantry I refused to learn the infantryman ' creed or song. I know it's tradition but so is beating privates who don't perform. Born are unnecessary and detract from the bigger picture: the mission. In my opinion

Response by 1LT Keith Gannon made Dec 6 at 2014 2:45 PM

1LT Keith Gannon — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 14:45:57 -0500

The army pushes a lot of ideals, but it's no place for an idealist.

If you think singing a song and reciting a creed is an unnecessary dog and pony show...wait till you find yourself openly paraded down roads laden with IEDs because it has been determined that a visible presence in a hostile community is needed to reassure local politicians about our commitments to their security. Your soldier is being petty, needs to realize the big picture, and needs to decide if he wants to be part of that picture.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2014 8:44 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 08:44:15 -0500

Okay this is usually where i draw the line there is no change that is effective from the outside especially with the army. If you know better you do better. The only way to make changes in the military is to work you way to the top and be in a position to give orders not follow them. To be a leader must know how to follow. To be a good speaker you must listen. I understand where he is coming from because the most dangerous words in any organization is ... "this is how we have always done it "

Response by SSG Stephanie Hall made Dec 8 at 2014 12:59 PM

SSG Stephanie Hall — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 12:59:57 -0500

The Army is not a Democracy. This soldier shouldn't be allowed to go before the board, because he/she is not ready to be a leader. You can't be a leader if you can't be a follower. The qualities a leader would want to instill in his/her soldiers can't be taught by someone that doesn't embody them. This person should be looking to get out of the Army. Why be a part of something that you can't stand for. I'm just saying.

Response by SSG John Erny made Dec 9 at 2014 1:45 PM

SSG John Erny — Tue, 09 Dec 2014 13:45:06 -0500

If I sang a song people would ask me to please stop! I can not sing nor do I enjoy it.

Response by SSG Darryl Pressley made Jan 25 at 2015 2:18 PM

SSG Darryl Pressley — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 14:18:20 -0500

Question is ,does he or she know the Creed, does he or she remember the words to the song? Not making myself look any better than any other soldier, but I myself was passed over because of the promotion board standards when the system changed several times throughout my career. I made the adjustments to meets the new standards and pushed forward to get there, didn't make any excuses. I wanted to be a Drill Sergeant, got passed over for selection, wanted to go on jump status got passed over for that. These are duties I out right volunteered for but didn't make it. Why, I am unsure. When it came time for me to sing the Army, I sang it and with pride, When it came time for me to recite the Creed, I recited it with pride regardless. I watched a fellow NCO fail Drill Sergeant school three times, fail out of SLC twice and barely made it the third time. Came back to the unit and got pinned SSG, PCS and made SFC. My observation as an experienced E5 Promotable, this NCO couldn't march soldiers in a platoon formation, not alone call cadence or instruct physical fitness or read a map, conduct SGT's time training or put together hip pocket training. Back in the early 80's when I joined, I was taught and lead by some of the best NCO's ever and that training stayed with me this entire 26 years. I'm Medically retired and still lead the soldiers and family members in their journey, and still know the Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer, The Soldiers Creed and the Army Song. That NCO needs to lead by example and do what he or she needs to do, because how is he or she going to enforce the standards and he or she is not following through. The first thing that NCO is going to hear from his or her soldiers is, " YOU DIDN'T DO IT SO WHY SHOULD I', then he or she will try to throw an article 15 at the soldier for not following the rules or disrespect.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2015 12:07 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Jan 2015 12:07:41 -0500

If he truly believes that "nobody lives by" the NCO creed, he should address the problem by setting a proper example - living by the creed. Refusing to say it only sends the message that the Soldier in question has no interest in living by it, and would therefore not make a good NCO.

Response by SSgt Randy Saulsberry made Mar 26 at 2015 7:12 AM

SSgt Randy Saulsberry — Thu, 26 Mar 2015 07:12:59 -0400

I completely agree with "him". A promotion board should be on what kind of service member and how good of a leader a person is. Anyone can memorize a song and a creed but the true leader like es by those songs and creeds. we need to quit equating a person that wins a board with that person being a good leader. I've seen to many times a bag of smashed a**h**es win a board because they can look and act the part but that is all they can do.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 24 at 2015 9:34 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 21:34:46 -0400

He is Don Quixote who fights windmills. You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Aug 24 at 2015 10:11 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 22:11:12 -0400

When I went before the promotion board I was not asked to sing a song or recite a creed but if I had been that is exactly what I would have done. If you want to be promoted you do whatever they ask you to do and answer all questions to the best of your ability. They didn't ask me what I thought of the questions.

Response by SSG Andy Hemmersbach made May 1 at 2016 4:22 PM

SSG Andy Hemmersbach — Sun, 01 May 2016 16:22:45 -0400

Seen to many idiots getting promoted cause they studied a lil bit! These are the ones which become shitty NCOS

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2016 4:29 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 May 2016 16:29:05 -0400

Kind of a weird hill to die on, but die on it he will. Does he think the 1SG and PSGs are going to suddenly say "You know, he's right, and I bet the CSM will be on board with this, too, if we just give him a chance!"

You're a no-go at this station--move out.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2016 4:48 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 May 2016 16:48:26 -0400

I think good for him. I don't think that reciting a creed or singing a song should be in a promotion board anyway. How do they help him? If he can do it it makes him better? Now if there were questions like an interview in which the soldiers could use the NCO creed to answer, that would be something substantial. Its outdated and only proves that someone can submit to orders. I feel like the Army is moving past that train of thought.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2016 4:56 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 May 2016 16:56:01 -0400

1SG: Recite the NCO Creed
Soldier: I don't want to recite a creed no one lives by.
1SG: I want to see you and your sponsor. Your platoon Sergeant is right here. We need to have a little chat. (If you were lucky.)
This is the most calm scenario I can come up with. The rest of the conversation would not be nearly as pleasant.

Response by PO1 Scott Miller made May 1 at 2016 5:04 PM

PO1 Scott Miller — Sun, 01 May 2016 17:04:42 -0400

Why does he keep going up?

Response by SSG John Jensen made May 1 at 2016 5:12 PM

SSG John Jensen — Sun, 01 May 2016 17:12:47 -0400

I only sang the words to the Field Artillery Song original words by John Phillip Sousa, i refused to sing the other version

Response by SSG Trevor S. made May 1 at 2016 6:21 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Sun, 01 May 2016 18:21:33 -0400

It sounds to me like the Soldier isn't mature enough to recognize the right of passage or to assimilate into leadership culture. Let them go to college and get their protest days behind them. If the Army needs them after they get it out if their system, then they can try again.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2016 6:37 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 May 2016 18:37:10 -0400

When I went to my E-5 board in Afghanistan I had to sing the Army song. I was off-key as hell but still did what I was told. Don't want to do what you're told? There's the door.

Response by SSG Dennis Grossmann made May 1 at 2016 6:43 PM

SSG Dennis Grossmann — Sun, 01 May 2016 18:43:36 -0400

The hardest thing do me is to recite anything in front of a group. If. He doesn't want promoted then keep him we here he is. The move up\move out is one of the dumbest things to come out. It only puts soldiers in positions they can't or don't want to do. There was never a problem with actual workers. Not everyone can be a leader. These days there are a lot of SGTs in name only because of that policy.

Response by CPL Jay Strickland made May 1 at 2016 6:45 PM

CPL Jay Strickland — Sun, 01 May 2016 18:45:59 -0400

He knew it was on the test he should have studied for it.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made May 1 at 2016 6:55 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Sun, 01 May 2016 18:55:04 -0400

Personally, I think that he or she needs to grow up. What is wrong with singing a song? Absolutely nothing. Have some pride in your unit and carry on it's traditions. What's wrong with reciting a creed? Absolutely nothing. Have some pride in your unit and carry on it's traditions. Set the example, start living the creed. Be the only one that does it. Stand out from everyone else.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2016 7:01 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 May 2016 19:01:38 -0400

In 96 I refuses to say NCO creed as that the Ranger Creed is what I lived by. That was for the leadership board at PLDC. There are things we must do to get from point a to b when "B" is the mission that must be accomplished.

Response by SSG Jeremy Kohlwes made May 1 at 2016 7:03 PM

SSG Jeremy Kohlwes — Sun, 01 May 2016 19:03:11 -0400

That's because he is to narrow sighted to find the underlying benefits. True, knowing the NCO Creed or the Army Song probably won't save your life in Afghanistan. However, this is a tradition that has been in the Army for a hell of a lot longer than he has. And the way I view it, learning the NCO Creed and the Army Song demonstrates the value that you put on your position and service, AND most of all, that you are willing to go the extra mile for them. And that is a big part of being an NCO, being able to go the extra mile for your Soldiers.

Response by SGT Rodrigo Contreras made May 1 at 2016 7:03 PM

SGT Rodrigo Contreras — Sun, 01 May 2016 19:03:33 -0400

I agree. Better to be a subject matter expert on what really matters. Better he is an NCO that is technically and tactically proficient in his MOS, small unit tactics, and knows of the support services that soldiers need rather than pointless recitation of mottos, songs, and creeds. The Board that focuses on fluff rather than substance promotes the wrong kind of soldiers.

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made May 1 at 2016 7:41 PM

CW4 Scott Hyde — Sun, 01 May 2016 19:41:53 -0400

Do what your career can handle. Does he object to PT standards as well and refuse to take a PT test? He knew the standards going in and should have known the results before knocking on the door. If this is the fight he chooses, fine. Congressional, EO, IG to follow? He will just shackle the command with time consuming action that will go no place. If he would channel his energy into demanding higher ethical and moral standards then he could be a standards bearer. Instead, he will be popular on Facebook but not in the Army and will not have a fulfilling career.

Response by SFC Andrew Miller made May 1 at 2016 8:14 PM

SFC Andrew Miller — Sun, 01 May 2016 20:14:52 -0400

I saw far too many Soldiers recommended for promotion boards before they were ready during my time in service. Memorization and recitation of rules, regulations, standards, creeds, and songs do not a leader make. That being said, once you are recommended for that promotion, it is your responsibility to ensure that you are willing to go the extramile to prepare for what you need to know. The board isn't just about the knowledge. It shows your pride, military bearing, and desire to a leader to the board members. This way they can see a bit of what the leader who recommended you sees.

I have never told a candidate for a board to tell the members what they wanted to hear. Be prepared, be honest, and be professional. Nothing more is needed.

As for saying that it is a Creed that nobody lives by, I call BS. I have seen plenty of leaders who fall short, but the majority do their part to exemplify the NCO Creed and the Soldier's Creed. If you truly feel that way, then you should be doing your part to implement change. We always talk about leading from the front, but regardless of where you are in the rank structure, you can lead by example. Many junior enlisted and junior NCOs think that the leadership doesn't notice, but they do.

Response by SGM Bill Johnson made May 1 at 2016 8:36 PM

SGM Bill Johnson — Sun, 01 May 2016 20:36:05 -0400

I have no issue with reciting the NCO Creed but I do with singing the Army song. The service Academies all have Glee Clubs, no NCO Academy that I know of has one. NCOs have never been afforded the luxury of electives, clubs, socials, and other such extra-curricular activities. NCOs attend training that is boiled down to the smallest amount of time and content that the Army can get away with and still claim that they are "educating" our NCOs. So ask them questions at the board that have something to do with their role as an NCO Leader. Should ALL Soldiers be able to sing our song and discuss our history? Well of course, it is part of our culture. I would love to see a Battalion Commander call out one of his/her Company Commanders in front of the Battalion Staff and require him to sing the Army Song. That would be....stupid.

Response by CSM Christopher St. Cyr made May 1 at 2016 9:09 PM

CSM Christopher St. Cyr — Sun, 01 May 2016 21:09:03 -0400

So this Soldier does not want to march along as a member of a team who march to victory protecting the people of the United States. He does not want to publicly proclaim he is proud of the Army name, nor does he want to place the Army's mission first nor be the first to fight and be our nation's might. He is not proud of what the Army has done in history, is willing to accept defeat by not doing what it takes to succeed on a promotion board how is he going to lead troop in battle until they have won?

I have found myself in some situations during my career where the only real guidance I had was the Creed of the Non-Commissioned Officer. I have never failed following the principals of the creed. That is not to say that I am perfect and sometimes fallen short of meeting the high expectations contained therein. The difference is I picked myself up, brushed myself off, apologized with those I served, seniors, peers and subordinates alike when necessary, learned my lessons and marched on to the next challenge.

If a Soldier does not want to even recite those two passages that spell out the traditions and values of the Army, how can any leader on that board have any faith that he will ever attempt to internalize those values and really try to live them in his own life. The Soldier may think that people deliberately fail to follow the guidance contained in our core documents, there there is a difference in trying to live up to those lofty ideas and failing, and not even trying to meet those standards. We all know people in leadership positions who fail to recognize how their behavior fails to comply with our values and they lead poorly. We also know plenty of people who work hard at becoming better leaders and are harder on themselves when they fail than their peers or seniors are on them for their failures.

Were I the president of the board, he would not have an opportunity to refuse to sing and recite. His failure on the first would lead to his dismissal. If this Soldier does not want to even try to reach for the high ideals our nation set for its military leaders, he has sent a strong message that he really does not want to be promoted. Show him where his ETS date appears on his ID card and give him the number to the transition assistance advisor. He should never become an NCO.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2016 12:19 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 May 2016 00:19:23 -0400

If it is a requirement then it must be fullfilled. He can say that the song and the creed do not make good leaders, but his or her attitude does not reflect one of a Leader. Great leaders to me at least are the ones who at times know when to follow.

Response by CSM William Payne made May 2 at 2016 1:18 AM

CSM William Payne — Mon, 02 May 2016 01:18:06 -0400

Ask a Marine if they can refuse to sing the Marine Corps Hymn and let's see how well that goes over with their fellow Marines.

Boards are about seeing how a Soldier handles themselves under stress. If a Soldier can't handle the stress of a promotion / SOY board, how are they going to lead in the field when the LZ gets hot? Singing the Army Song and reciting the Soldier's Creed are about tradition, legacy, discipline, being a team player and esprit de corps, not for the entertainment of the board members.

If the Soldier cannot grasp that concept, then he may be in the wrong career field and should not be promoted.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made May 2 at 2016 4:49 AM

SFC Joseph Weber — Mon, 02 May 2016 04:49:49 -0400

He's an idiot. It would be like saying you are not going to call cadence during runs because you think its stupid. Go ahead, stand by your whatever and stay a specialist forever.

Response by SPC Nicholas Wood made May 2 at 2016 4:55 AM

SPC Nicholas Wood — Mon, 02 May 2016 04:55:10 -0400

yes because reciting a song and creed in which the majority of the NCO's don't live up too or give a damn about means your a leader ... The board needs to be changed, memorizing things doesn't make you a leader if you say it does you have issues

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2016 5:34 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 May 2016 05:34:35 -0400

I see his point. Something as trivial as singing a song doesnt make you a good leader. Lots of the little things dont make you a good leader, however, its how being deficient on those little things that add up that are the issue.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2016 7:00 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 May 2016 07:00:22 -0400

This Soldier's argument is garbage for two reasons. First, it doesn't matter if he thinks others are not living by the NCO Creed or Army Song. It only matters if he knows it and lives by it. We are talking about his career, not anyone else's. Second, and this is the most important one, since when does a Soldier decide which instructions to follow and which to ignore? His opinion should not be a part of the discussion. It's like Soldiers saying they don't want to do PT because it's too early or go to the motorpool because it's too hot. You might as well say you don't want to deploy because you'll miss your family. He can stay a Specialist until it's time for him to ETS. He should be able to express himself and live by his convictions as a civilian.

Response by SFC Anthony Pawlisz, PMP made May 2 at 2016 8:48 AM

SFC Anthony Pawlisz, PMP — Mon, 02 May 2016 08:48:30 -0400

First I think there is a serious issue across the Army with the NCO leadership anymore. The Army is not a democracy, you do what you are told to. You want to get promoted you know the rules and do's and dont's. Send this knucklehead packing. But back to my first point, a recent Ft Campbell unit setup a promotion board for 19 soldiers and NCO's who recently came back from Afghanistan. First promotion board since they have been back and none while they were deployed, the CSM arbirtailiy dismissed 13 of 19 attendees including every single NCO/ Soldier from 1 company. The CSM claiming all 13 didn't have their S1 paper work in order, even though they all had proof that it was. The 1Sgt's defended their soldiers/NCO's showed proof thatvthey did in fact did have it right yet the CSM continued with the board for only 3 soldiers. This lack of leadership on the CSM's part showed great disrespect to all his 1Sgt's and decreased moral throughout the unit. So why would the Sr NCO in a unit do such a thing, against the advice of every 1Sgt in the unit? From the outside looking in it appears that the CSM had some issues with several 1Sgt's in this case. I would be interested to hear feed back on this?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2016 10:14 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 May 2016 10:14:16 -0400

He should be counseled for refusal/inability to progress and be barred from reenlistment. As many have said there is no room for political statements or the cancerous attitude he is displaying.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2016 10:24 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 May 2016 10:24:28 -0400

I was this Soldier. I didn't refuse to sing a song, or recite a creed, but I fought a command policy tooth and nail, because it violated my constitutional rights. (which it did, but I don't care anymore) One of the best NCO's that I've ever met, instead of being combative with me simply asked me what "Selfless Service" meant to me. Instead of letting me stumble through a bogus explanation, he told me to seriously think about it and get back to him in 1 week.

I did so, and I quit fighting.

I know this doesn't apply directly to the individual in the hypothetical situation, but I think I had the same attitude. I didn't understand that Leadership, is actually spelled EXAMPLE. Who cares if you can look up regs? What matters is whether or not you can show Soldiers how to act, and how to meet the standard, by doing it yourself. ALL THE TIME.

I would say that this individual is not ready for promotion. Not because he doesn't want to sing the song or recite the creed, but because he doesn't understand what leadership is, or if he does, he doesn't know how to apply it.

Response by PO2 Joseph Hodges made May 2 at 2016 12:02 PM

PO2 Joseph Hodges — Mon, 02 May 2016 12:02:07 -0400

Get along to go along or fake it to make it. He obviously does not want a promotion and if he cannot do this one simple thing then what else is the soldier shirking at.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2016 3:42 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 May 2016 15:42:36 -0400

i've in the military for 31+ years and only attended 2 nco ceremonials, one was the blood stripe, usmc, when i got promoted to hm3, and the other in iraq 2009 as a guest to the e4 being promoted to e5, where the sm's recited the nco creed, maybe we need to get back to some of the old traditions, formal dinnings, what ever the esprit de corps stuff, and by the way blood striping is a bitch took a week to get the numbness gone

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 2 at 2016 11:30 PM

COL Charles Williams — Mon, 02 May 2016 23:30:52 -0400

Sounds like he should not be a leader in our Army. That song is our song. But, that creed, that is a horse of different color. In my world, everyone lived by that creed, or they did not make it.

To me, it is shame he got promoted... he should have been shown the door.

Response by Sgt Bruce Taylor made May 3 at 2016 2:59 AM

Sgt Bruce Taylor — Tue, 03 May 2016 02:59:13 -0400

I understand having to memorize the creed. Im concerned regarding his attitude about living by it. That being said... the performance of a musical number is about as relevant to leadership and promotion as an interpretive dance routine or an accordion solo. All this talk of standards and uniformity doesn't make the requirement any less laughably pointless than wearing reflective belts in the chow hall (So the driver who crashed through the wall sees you and doesn't run you over at the coffee dispenser).
Just because the soldier reacted to it in a stupid way, doesn't make a musical requirement any less mockable.

Response by Cpl Jeffrey Walker made May 3 at 2016 6:12 AM

Cpl Jeffrey Walker — Tue, 03 May 2016 06:12:03 -0400

Never been to an Army board, but I would question the mental condition of any Marine who couldn't belt out the Marine Hymn on command.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2016 9:12 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 May 2016 21:12:17 -0400

this is proud and good but when sm i requred by board to do such as singing the army song or the nco creed then do it

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made May 6 at 2016 12:41 PM

SSG Richard Reilly — Fri, 06 May 2016 12:41:23 -0400

Clearly the command is wrong about him being ready for the next level.

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made May 7 at 2016 11:41 AM

SGT Alicia Brenneis — Sat, 07 May 2016 11:41:59 -0400

I think he should not be promoted. He may be a fine soldier but that is not the place to make a statement. If he has not learned when to pick his battles than he's probably not ready. Instead of refusing to sing or say a creed he feels "nobody lives by" he should be ready to lead his future soldiers back to living and respecting those creeds. If he feels that way, it leads me to believe he is also not living by the creed. I took the NCO creed to heart and still believe in it. We all know that the army has strayed from its core values quite a bit but the only way to fix that is to lead/teach new soldiers back to them. His refusal to do something he knew was part of the process falls in line with the new adatude soldiers have. That it's ok to question and refuse to do tasks you don't personally "feel" are nessary. I could go on for days on this one because even though I'm retired, the Army is still my heart.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 1:16 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 May 2016 13:16:11 -0400

I believe the promotion board is pointless. It is a bad way to see who's ready to lead. Like seriously you mean to tell me I can stand in front of some people sang a song, say a few paragraphs and show you I can read some regs and you think a person is ready to lead. How about you promote people based on how they conduct day to day ops. Then maybe so many leaders won't be shit bags because they would actually have to work for a promotion.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 4:17 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 May 2016 16:17:28 -0400

The way I see it is that the promotion Board is a necessary evil. It doesn't matter if you like it or not, it still is a requirement for you to get promoted. You have to play these Army games if you want to progress your career. Just do the board and get your promotable status. The board itself should only last an hour at the most, then it's over.

Response by SGT Philip Keys made May 7 at 2016 6:10 PM

SGT Philip Keys — Sat, 07 May 2016 18:10:07 -0400

Happy to hear he got squared away.